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Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 4:02am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: No, Frank Willet himself who headed the excavation and oversaw the dating did not rule out the site as a burial site in relation to Benin kings. Despite some of the old dating result. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 4:04am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: Could you direct me to where Willett said he upheld (i.e. believed) the idea that that was what the site was really used for before or after the excavation? Or did he just acknowledge that there was some tradition about that? From what I remember from my reading of Willet's articles, books, he doesn't seem to just accept Nigerian traditions as necessarily being factual just because they exist. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 4:05am On Apr 10, 2020 |
davidnazee: You're gradually becoming humble He was instrumental to a new political order that gave birthed the primacy of Ife. Not that he gave birth to every Ife indigene. Lol Edo advanced society that didnt wear cloth. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 4:06am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: Yes, I know he didn't "rule it out", but I don't recall where he affirmed or upheld that it was demonstrated by the burial pits. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 4:11am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: Yes I will direct you to where he still upheld the idea that the site was four burial in relation to Benin kings, despite finding no skulls there. Give me a moment! Modified Frank Willet in "Ife in the History of West African Sculpture, Lond. 1967, p. 132" gives a personal suggestion as to why skulls were not found: "It was perhaps not the heads of the Obas that were sent but some [other] token of the body" Cited in G. A. Akinola, The History of the Eweka Dynasty of Benin: A Study in the Use and Abuse of Oral Traditions, Journal kf the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 8. 3 (December 1979), p.33. Clearly, if he had an interesting understanding like yours (different from mine) about some of the early date of the materials, the question of continuing to connect the pits to the Obas of Benin would have been out of the window. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 4:14am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: Wait a minute!! Did you just say you know he didn't rule it out despite the dating result of some of the materials, when that's precisely what you've been trying to do all night?? I am confused!! Lol |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 4:19am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: There is a difference between saying something could still be possible (not ruling it out) even though the evidence at hand doesn't affirm it, and "upholding" (believing) something to be true. I don't think that is so confusing. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by davidnazee: 4:23am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: If u interpret my trying to not see u as a foolish person as being humble that’s fine lol. So you agree that Ife wasn’t a great Kingdom before Oduduwa came.. so where did oduduwa come from? Historians and scholars have all said he didn’t come from any of Yoruba villages, so where did he come from? |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 4:32am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: "The kingdom of Benin was so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told a British governor that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its king." - Asibong Akpan Okon, The evolution of self-government of Nigeria (1955), p. 36 Asibong Okon was referring to this: "This Kingdom of Benin was at one time so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told me that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its King." - United Empire, Volume 2 (1911), p. 620 https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=AE45AQAAMAAJ&dq=predecessors+pay+tribute Forgot the British governor's name (I looked through the United Empire book years ago, but didn't make any notes), but that 1911 quote is authentic. You can make what you want out of the quote. From my own perspective, power relations in a political context are usually based on realpolitik and determined by the practical facts on the ground, not necessarily myths or legends.
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Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 4:35am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: Okay, let me clarify so you are clear. He did not entertain the slightest iota of doubt regarding whether the site was in connection to the Obas of Benin, despite some dating result. I hope that is clear. What he introduced a "suggestion" for, on the other hand, was the actual body parts (of Benin Obas) that was buried there. And he came up with this because he found nk skulls. But he also admitted elsewhere that the absense of body parts is not what disproves traditions of olden burial. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 4:40am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: I read Willett's articles and books years ago, including his article about the excavations and I don't recall the statement he makes affirming that the site was definitely used for burials of the kings of Benin, hence my question to you. I am just asking where he affirms or upheld that the site really was used to bury the kings of Benin. I am aware that he does not "rule it out" and stated that the absence of finds of human remains doesn't disprove a tradition but that is not the same thing as him as upholding the idea as true. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 5:08am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: So Crowther in 1856 noted the following the Yoruba: the Yoruba "at one time ... were all tributaries to one Sovereign, the King of Yoruba ["i.e. Oyo"], inckuding Benin on the East, and Dahomey on the West." S. Crowther to T. J. Hutchinson, 10 Sept. 1856 (C.M.S Archives, CA2/031a). Samuel Johnson noted that: "at the height of its power in the eighteenth century, the Oyo kingdom was bounded by the River Niger on the north and east and the sea on the south, and that 'from all the provinces included within these boundaries ... tributes were paid to Oyo." Johnson, History p.40. You can make what you want out of those. And talking about mythology and stories, it pervades all cultures of the world, including Benin. You started out well, but you've began to start making moot points. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 5:09am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: I aready cited you references above in the same comment where I noted that I will. Again, he never sounded even slightly hesitant or probabilistic regarding whether the site was a burial site or whether it was connected to the kings of Benin. The only point about which he sounded quite understandably hesitant, was if it was their heads or other parts of their body that was buried there. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 5:21am On Apr 10, 2020 |
davidnazee: Oduduwa did not "came". Your skull is very thick. Oduduwa is Yoruba. From Ife. When political reforms were ongoing in Ife, your peeps were still swinging n@ked from one tree to another tree and hoping from one cave shekter to another. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 5:25am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: I am familiar with what Crowther asserted and what Johnson claimed as well (though neither of them might be completely impartial sources). That's not new to me but my point with that quote is that one monarchy being "above" another politically in the past can't simply be determined by recollections of popular myths, legends, etc. if practical reality on the ground pointed to something different. My own view is that at one point Benin was more powerful than Oyo, then Benin's power declined (due to civil war), then Oyo was more powerful than Benin, then Oyo's power declined (due to a civil war - an Alafin of Oyo in the early 1800s told a British explorer, Hugh Clapperton, that "he had sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him" in his attempt to defeat the rebels) and then Benin was again more powerful (though not as relatively powerful as it had been in the past), then not long after Nigeria was eventually conquered and annexed by the British. I don't think a story like that one (in which Oranmiyan doesn't return to Ife after establishing his son Ajaka as the first Alafin - so it is actually different from variations on it that I have read in the past) that can be used to determine historical power relations. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MetaPhysical: 5:31am On Apr 10, 2020 |
Look, who are the mods here abeg? This thread should go on front page This is very educative for Benins to learn. Cc Odumchi Please move to front page. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MetaPhysical: 5:34am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: You have to give measure to what you call "powerful". Powerful by Olfert Dapper's standard, or powerful by conquests? Bring the quote from Alaafin to Clapperton here. Cite it |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 5:39am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: Oh really! Johnson and Crowther may not have been impartial in what they documented. Why? Because you think so. Or because their accounts must have been recollection of popular myths and stories But some how Asibong Okon could not have lied about what he had reported that the Alaafin told the British. Lol And Asibong Okon could not possibly have based his lies on Benin myths such as Oba owns all the land even up to Europe. C'mon you should do better. 1 Like 2 Shares |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 5:40am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: That is quoting Akinola though, not Willett. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 5:42am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: Akinola clearly cited Willett, c'mon. And the reference was given. What's your excuse here? That you didn't see the reference to Willett? 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 5:48am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: I think you misread the post. Asibong Okon was merely citing a British article, from the United Empire book, and he repeated what was stated in that sentence almost word for word. So he couldn't have lied about that. Maybe you think the British governor lied about what he was told, but that would be a different issue entirely (how reliable are colonial authorities, or Europeans generally, in their accounts of what they were told by African rulers). My point about Johnson is that his pro-Oyo bias is significant enough that multiple historians have commented on it - significant enough that he promotes the idea in his book The History of the Yorubas that the Ooni of Ife was a descendant of a mere shrine keeper, rather than real royalty (a myth which had actually been prevalent in other parts of Yorubaland even before Johnson wrote his book; the historian Robin Law cites other instances of this myth about the Ooni of Ife being some kind of shrine keeper or non-royalty existing in other parts of Yorubaland dating from before and after Johnson's book was published). So Johnson was someone who could - and apparently did - incorporate myths or legends that had a sort of political angle to them into his historical account. As for Crowther I was merely speculating or alluding to how he may not have been an impartial source since he may have simply been repeating a pro-Oyo account which was prevalent in his time. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:01am On Apr 10, 2020 |
MetaPhysical: The Alaafin in 1911 seems to have provided his own idea of the power the kings of Benin had once held, from an African (Oyo Yoruba) perspective. Olfert Dapper is not the only account (whether European or African) from centuries ago describing the king of Benin as very powerful, so nothing unique about Dapper's perspective - it lines up fairly well with African and European views from the past. Anyway, the statement from Clapperton: "In the evening we had a visit from the king, to thank me for the presents I had given him, and again to assure me of being welcolme; said that he wanted nothing, unless it was something that would speedily cause the submission of the rebels. He said that he had sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him in the war." - Hugh Clapperton, Journal of a Second Expedition Into the Interior of Africa, from the Bight of Benin to Soccatoo |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 6:02am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: Your argument against Crowther's account and Johnson's account actually holds no water. And evidence for that is seen in the well known historical fact (which you also admitted) that Oyo at some point in the course of its history ascended over other kingdoms including Benin. So, you can't simply afford to contradict yourself by playing some partiality card for Johnson and Crowther. Moreover, little Owu forced tribute from Oyo at the earliest stages of Oyo's history, and guess what it is well documented in Johnson's The History despite your exaggeration of his pro-Oyoness. In sum, the account you cited could have been no different from the likes of Owu forcing tribute from Oyo when it was newly founded at its infancy. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MetaPhysical: 6:04am On Apr 10, 2020 |
United Empire said a lot... Should its saying about power relations be regarded credible, its revelations of descendancy will equally qualify. 1 Like 1 Share
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Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:11am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: There is no contradiction - I never said that there was not a point when Oyo was more powerful. I questioned this idea of basing "ranking" at a point in time merely on legends and myths (or variations of myths) in the past rather than what the reality was on the ground as far as power. That said, that does not preclude the possibility of partiality or bias being present in some accounts like those of Johnson and Crowther. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:15am On Apr 10, 2020 |
MetaPhysical: Sure, it also says that, but I highlighted it in the context of what an Alaafin himself said to a British official about the past relations simply as a response to that particular statement from TAO (in the post I quoted) about the two kings. The British official doesn't say what his source is for that part of his account about descent anyway, whereas his source for his other statement is an Alaafin. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 6:19am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: What legend or myth You never established anything to the effect that the independent accounts of Johnson and Crowther (that Benin paid tribute to Oyo) was based on any myth. You only submitted your personal imagination that it must have been based on legend and myth. And you insist that to be the case without any specific basis. Why? Because it's you who said it. Hello!!!!? On the other hand, corroborating historical evidence (which you admit) --- of Benin being dwarfed by Oyo at some point in the course of history --- clearly supports the independent account Johnson and Crowther as not some myth or legend which you actually provided no specific basis for to begin with. You see my point? 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:21am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: No, I saw the reference to Willett, but Willett was providing an alternative explanation for why remains might not be found (and hence not finding remains would not disprove the idea) and not asserting that he believed the idea about burials of the Benin kings there as being fact. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MetaPhysical: 6:21am On Apr 10, 2020 |
I believe if bias and partiality were put under review no kingdom in Nigeria enjoyed partiality and bias of the early explorers and colonial prejudice than Benin. Writers who could not point to it on map or had a clue what color of people lived there or whether it was a valley or a mountain painted all sorts of Alice in Wonderland tales and packaged these as authorities on Benin. Oyo did not receive an European visit till 1842. Ife was never visited by an explorer till 1942. In all practicality Benin turned out to be a village compared with Ife and Oyo. Substance vs form! 2 Likes |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by TAO11(f): 6:24am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: Yes, he provided a suggestion for why the Benin Obas' skulls were not found. But, he never introduced a shred of doubt as to whether the site was not for burial, or whether it was not for Benin's Obas, despite the early date of some of the materials he found 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by SilverSniper: 6:26am On Apr 10, 2020 |
TAO11: The reference to "legend or myth" was strictly in reference to the whole story of Oranmiyan leaving Eweka in Benin then becoming the first Alafin (rather than Ajaka, and not returning to Ife) that you referenced in your first post that I initially quoted, and the inferences you were drawing from that about how ranking might have worked. You misinterpreted what I said there but I could have been clearer. As for Crowther or Johnson, I simply said there was a possible issue of bias resulting in incorporation of partial accounts or political angles, that's all. I wasn't saying they were mere myth-makers. |
Re: Benin Kingdom In Edo State Remained Part Of The Expansive Yoruba - Ooni Of Ife by MetaPhysical: 6:27am On Apr 10, 2020 |
SilverSniper: Does that negate or make the descent statement inadmissible? 1 Like 1 Share |
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