Sorry to bother you, family, I challenge another Nlander on a Politics Thread, here is the breakdown of how the challenge transpires:-

budaatum:

Really? "Nothing such as an ‘electronic mail’" with "‘inbox’, ‘outbox’, ‘draft’, ‘trash’, ‘send’, ‘cc’, ‘bcc’ functions e.t.c" before 1978?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_email?wprov=sfla1

Lets have a wager.

I wager with you our Nairaland accounts.

Reply me, if you agree.

I am willing to wager my Nland account against yours.

You claim:

budatuum: V.A. Shiva Ayyadurai is not a member of the MIT faculty and did not invent email. In 1980 he created a small-scale electronic mail system used within University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, but this could not send messages outside the university and included no important features missing from earlier systems. The details of Ayyadurai’s program were never published, it was never commercialized, and it had no apparent influence on any further work in the field. He does not “hold the patent for email” or have a copyright on the word email, though in 1982 he did register a copyright claim covering the exact text of a program called "EMAIL.

I say:

1) Dr V A Shiva Ayyadurai holds multiple degrees, including a Ph.D from MIT.

Amujjale post=88304006:

...The coding he generated is directly responsible for the ‘inbox’, ‘outbox’, ‘draft’, ‘trash’, ‘send’, ‘cc’, ‘bcc’ functions e.t.c

2) There was never a system that had all the features explained above that which constitutes the 'electronic mail' and or EMAIL prior to the one DR Shiva invented.


Reply me, if you would like to accept the wager.

Whoever loses the wager should deactivate their monikers.

Its time to put up or shut up.

budaatum:

I guess you learnt this from jnr.

All monickers, right? Mention me when you open a thread.

Here's is that challenge.

Let's Go!.




#budaatum
#CAPSLOCKED
#fierry
#Horus
#imhotep
#janette
#LordReed
#MetaPhysical
#OtemAtum
#Rossikk
#SrikeBack
#wowcatty
#XxSabrinaxX

Wow. Budaatum seems you attract these kinds of challenges LoLz!

So how is this gonna be settled? What sources are we considering as the primary sources to authenticate these competing claims?

LordReed:

So how is this gonna be settled? What sources are we considering as the primary sources to authenticate these competing claims?

I guess one would have to base this on genuine and tangible evidence, opposed to mere hearsay and commentary.

.....

If i invent the first car, and call it CAR, who invented the first car?

Just go to bed. Followed both of your posts all the way from the American thread and dude you didn't get buda's points at all. You didn't even want to understand.

Amujjale:


I guess one would have to base this on genuine and tangible evidence, opposed to mere hearsay and commentary.

Before you start putting up stuff we need to agree on what constitutes genuine and tangible evidence as opposed to mere hearsay and commentary.

LordReed:


Before you start putting up stuff we need to agree on what constitutes genuine and tangible evidence as opposed to mere hearsay and commentary.

That makes perfect sense, previous stuff has been removed accordingly.

fieryy:
Just go to bed. Followed both of your posts all the way from the American thread and dude you didn't get buda's points at all. You didn't even want to understand.

No, butum jumped to a wrong conclusion.

Care to explain what you mean?

The question i posed to butum in the firsr instance is the one i pose to you aswell.

Did Dr Shiva Invent EMAIL, yes or no?

And as far as i'm aware, butum's argument is based on the premise that:

1) Dr Shiva didnt invent the EMAIL that it was invented in the 1960's.


2) Dr Shiva didnt attend MIT

Correct me if i'm reaching here.

These are the points that the challenge that we both agreed is based on.

fieryy:


You didn't even want to understand.

You say you"ve been following the conversation from the politics thread, good, thats fantastic so we have a realtime witness.

You are aware of what prompted the exchange in the first instance, what the contention are, what the challenge is?

Amujjale:


No, butum jumped to a wrong conclusion.

Care to explain what you mean?

The question i posed to butum in the firsr instance is the one i pose to you aswell.

Did Dr Shiva Invent EMAIL, yes or no?

And as far as i'm aware, butum's argument is based on the premise that:

1) Dr Shiva didnt invent the EMAIL that it was invented in the 1960's.


2) Dr Shiva didnt attend MIT

Correct me if i'm reaching here.

These are the points that the challenge that we both agreed is based on.

This one single screenshot sums up your arguments.

Shiva is know for his claim to be the inventor of email, however his claim was met by objections stating email was already active in the early 1970s. What's so difficult to understand there?

'Did Dr Shiva Invent EMAIL, yes or no?'.

The answer is: 'WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE!'

Emails were probably 'invented' by multiple people, not a single person, which is not that surprising. In the course of history multiple people have had similar ideas, in physics, biology etc

fieryy:


This one single screenshot sums up your arguments.

Shiva is know for his claim to be the inventor of email, however his claim was met by objections stating email was already active in the early 1970s. What's so difficult to understand there?

'Did Dr Shiva Invent EMAIL, yes or no?'.

The answer is: 'WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE!'

Emails were probably 'invented' by multiple people, not a single person, which is not that surprising. In thr course of history multiple people have had similar ideas, in physics, biology etc

'EMAIL' was the invention of one person, and the person's name is DR V A Shiva Ayyadurai.

The question isnt about how many people had an in input in email as we know it today.

.The question is who is the originator of the EMAIL.

.Who invented EMAIL?

.Who gave it the name EMAIL.?

.Did DR Shiva attend MIT?

I will not be divulging any further evidence, in respect to the challenge, the rules havent been set.

I propose that only the assertions that are verifiable are allowed to be considered as evidence.

For instance, assuming i make the assertion that i am the highest goal scorer in the EPL, i should be able to provide a genuine document from the EPL that states such to be factual as well as have witness statements, personal statements, peer statements that corroborate our assertions, professional opinion e.t.c

Our assertions cannot soley be based on commentary and hear say, there has to be tangible evidence to back them up.

LordReed:
Wow. Budaatum seems you attract these kinds of challenges LoLz!

So how is this gonna be settled? What sources are we considering as the primary sources to authenticate these competing claims?

Seems I do "attract these kinds of challenges" my Lord.

This discussion began here
https://www.nairaland.com/4508641/american-politics-thread-2020-election/445#88235433

For the record, the position of buda is that V.A. Shiva Ayyadurai developed an electronic messaging system for about 100 users at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey in 1978 and obtained a 1982 copyright for its computer code. He did not invent email.

Email, as in, sending one, to, cc, bcc, subject, etc, is the result of collaborations that go back to the 60s.

budaatum:

You can't be the creator in 1978 of what existed way back in the 60s. And claiming otherwise is, "irrational spookism".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/omblog/post/reader-meter-who-really-invented-e-mail/2012/02/24/gIQAHZugYR_blog.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/omblog/post/origins-of-e-mail-my-mea-culpa/2012/03/01/gIQAiOD5kR_blog.html

Amujjale:
If i invent the first car, and call it CAR, who invented the first car?

You did. Since you {if} invented the first car.

However, the invention of cars is similar to that of email which you can read here.

If cars were roaming the streets long before you produced your first car and called it CAR, did you invent the first CAR?

Amujjale:


Lets have a wager.

I wager with you our Nairaland accounts.

Reply me, if you agree.

I am willing to wager my Nland account against yours.

You claim:




I say:

1) Dr V A Shiva Ayyadurai holds multiple degrees, including a Ph.D from MIT.



2) There was never a system that had all the features explained above that which constitutes the 'electronic mail' and or EMAIL prior to the one DR Shiva invented.


Reply me, if you would like to accept the wager.

Whoever loses the wager should deactivate their monikers.

Its time to put up or shut up.

See you, amu!

Please note, I do not dispute him holding degrees from MIT. The only dispute here is whether he is the inventor of email or not.

Oh, I just saw your heading, you weasly amu! Love how you've jumped from V.A. Shiva Ayyadurai "invented", "patented", "copyrighted", and now he "re-invented" email.

So, if cars existed and you reinvented cars (whatever that may mean), then you invented cars?

budaatum:

Seems I do "attract these kinds of challenges" my Lord.

This discussion began here
https://www.nairaland.com/4508641/american-politics-thread-2020-election/445#88235433

For the record, the position of buda is that V.A. Shiva Ayyadurai developed an electronic messaging system for about 100 users at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey in 1978 and obtained a 1982 copyright for its computer code. He did not invent email.

Email, as in, sending one, to, cc, bcc, subject, etc, is the result of collaborations that go back to the 60s.

First things first, do you accept this wager with its attendant consequences?

Next, what in particular is your contention?

Do you have sources to back up your claims and can we examine the sources?

LordReed:


First things first, do you accept this wager with its attendant consequences?

Next, what in particular is your contention?

Do you have sources to back up your claims and can we examine the sources?

My claim is V. A. Shiva Ayyadurai did not invent email.

And yes, I accept the attendant consequences.

budaatum:

My claim is V. A. Shiva Ayyadurai did not invent email.

And yes, I accept the attendant consequences.

Amujjale, here is budaatum's claim. What is your counter claim and do you accept the consequences of the wager?

budaatum:
Oh, I just saw your heading, you weasly amu! Love how you've jumped from V.A. Shiva Ayyadurai "invented", "patented", "copyrighted", and now he "re-invented" email.

So, if cars existed and you reinvented cars (whatever that may mean), then you invented cars?

Just to be clear butum.

I never claimed V A Shiva Ayyadurai re-invented EMAIL

The title of the thread is 're-inventor of email' in reference to our previous exchange on the politics thread.

I have always maintained that Dr Shiva is the invevtor of EMAIL.

LordReed:


Amujjale, here is budaatum's claim. What is your counter claim and do you accept the consequences of the wager?

Amujjale:

...The coding he generated is directly responsible for the ‘inbox’, ‘outbox’, ‘draft’, ‘trash’, ‘send’, ‘cc’, ‘bcc’ functions e.t.c

There was never a system that had all the features explained above that which constitutes the 'electronic mail' and or EMAIL prior to the one DR Shiva invented.

Dr Shiva is the inventor of EMAIL.

And yes i agree with the consequences of the wager.

budaatum:

See you, amu!

Please note, I do not dispute him holding degrees from MIT. The only dispute here is whether he is the inventor of email or not.

According to your post here:

budatuum: V.A. Shiva Ayyadurai is not a member of the MIT faculty and did not invent email....

Your insinuatuon was that Dr Shiva never attend MIT


But that is besides the main point of contention.

Amujjale:


According to your post here:



Your insinuatuon was that Dr Shiva never attend MIT


But that is besides the main point of contention.

I am not disputing he went to MIT. The wiki I posted to show he did not invent email specifically said he attended MIT.

Please stick to the topic!

Amujjale:


Just to be clear butum.

I never claimed V A Shiva Ayyadurai re-invented EMAIL

The title of the thread is 're-inventor of email' in reference to our previous exchange on the politics thread.

I have always maintained that Dr Shiva is the invevtor of EMAIL.

Did I "re-invent" the title of your thread, amu?

Thank you family for allowing me the opportunity to make my case.

I would like to start my pitch with the introduction of the person himself.

Meet the Inventor of EMAIL Dr V A Shiva Ayyadurai.

Dr V A Shiva was born in Mumbai, Maharashra India on December 2 1963.

He moved to the United States of America with his parents as a 7year old in 1970.

Shiva was one of those kids who finished Calculus by the 9th grade, he was smart, but he put in hard work and dediication, he used to engage in problem solving until 2 - 3 am because he wanted to be the best.

His mum once told him:

"You going to have to score A++ to be recognised that you even got a B"

His mother saw a little paper clipping and he had no more math courses remaining to conquer, the paper said that this professor from NYU was looking to select fourty kids across the U.S.A (his name was Professor Henry Mullish) to get to go to NYU to the core institute of mathematical science.

Shiva got selected as one of those who got to go and he graduated as the number one student out of those fourty kids.

He graduated top of the class and he goes back and he still has highschool left, meanwhile his mum had found a professor at Newark, New Jersey. His highschool xhanged the system so he could go work fulltime research fellow in Newark, NJ in a small medical college.

Since he was good un programming, his job was to use the computer to figure out why American babies were dying in their sleep at that time. And he began to use very powerful algorithm that he wrote by hand ( he knew the math that one typically doesnt learn until graduate school) and used the math to predict when each undividual baby was going to experience that one could shake the manger ahead if it and if you wake up the baby one can stop the fatality.

Thats what he was doing as a kid. That was before he even got admission to MIT.

In those days (1970's) you always had a secretary.

In every office was a secretary.

That secretary owned a desk, and on that desk was a thing called a typwriter and to the left of the secretary was an 'inbox', 'outbox', a draft, behind were the 'folders' underneath the desk was a 'trash can'.

On the desk was something called 'paper clips', write out where one would write whatvis called a 'memo' with the functions:-

To
From
Subject

Sometimes one would have a carbon copy, for instance, if i was writing the thread a memo stating hey family, i want to hire someone, i may 'CC' the hiring manager which is literally a carbon paper.

Put the original paper, put the carbon paper and then the secretary would begin to type away.

So now we have the original paper, the carbon paper and sometimes one may want to introduce a 'BCC', the secretary may want to 'BCC' the hiring managers boss and then we put in another one and then the secretary may attach the person's resume.

So this was a complete package.

This isnt simply exchanging little text messages which some of those mainframes did. From point to point, little text messages e.g "Hey Bob, how are you"

That isnt what i'm talking about, we are talking about the entire system that V A Shiva Ayyadurai was asked to convert into the electronic form.

These little memos with there attachments will be put into little envelopes with little strings and then they were put into these nomadic tubes.

And these tubes went all around the office complex.

This was the social media of those days.

If you was negotiating a contract, onr would forward it to a bunch of people to read it.

Such was how business got done in an inner office system.

So the inner office system was really the guts of business.

Whether it was in a medical school or in the Presidents office, this was the inner office mail system.

The key thing to understand here is the word 'system'

Talking about a bunch of interlocked parts that had connected togerther the 'inbox', the 'outbox'.

The boss would approach the secretary and dictate.

Secretary take a note:

blah,blah,blah,blah, blah.

Secretary will type away.

And the secretary would put the dictation in a 'draft folder'

Remember the 'Draft folder' in 'email'?

It was a physical folder.

The Boss would engage with the menos in the 'draft folder' correct with 'red marker' and give it back to the secretary.

Secretary will copy into a new document put in a string and place it in the 'outbox' and so on.

And when secretary has a record, its filed and sometime stuff is thrown in the 'trash can'.

Registerd mail:

Registered mail was also used.

Here the secretary wants to send mail but wants to be certain that the recipient has revieved, one would need a receipt to affirm this, secretaty has to have an address book.

Over 180 different features, Shiva had to convert all of those to the electronic version.

Why?

Because the secretary were not going to move from there desk and the inner office mail system to this new thing, most of whom had never seen a computer before.

The electronic version had to have all of those features in there.


Shiva had to figure this out all on his own.

Whats even more intersting is that he called his system 'EMAIL'.


He wrote the code that was a manifestation of the inner office system put in into its electronic version and named it email.

There is no controvesy in that fact.

"Before email, there was the interoffice (inter-organizational) mail system: inbox, outbox, folders, address book, attachments, e.t.c.

But, it was all done using paper, 'Experts' thought it impossible to create a computer-based version of that system and did not attempt to do so.

But, perhaps because of his ignorance as a 14year old kid, Shiva never thought it impossible when his supervisor Dr Leslie P Michelson at a small medical college in Newark, NJ challenged him to do so.

Shiva wrote 50,000 lines of FOTRAN code across a system of about 35 software programs to create the first such electronic system. It was a success.

He called it 'email,' a term never used before in the English Language.

He received the first US Copyright for the invention, at a time when copyrigjt was the only way to protect software inventions.

The struggle and victory of a successful lawsuit against Gawker Media for a sum of $750,000 to share these facts, celebrate the boy, his hard work and infinite posibilities of that America, that provided him an ecosystem to create and innovate."


Its important to note that everything had to be in uppercase back then.

Everything partaining to computers had to be uppercase because of the LED screens.

All the variables had to be uppercase in the FOTRAN codes.

The maximum line on the code was five, thats why he named it EMAIL.

It wasnt an obvious name at the time.

He held seminars teaching people how to use this and he called it email.

He was the software engineer, he was the custoner service, he was the trainer

Dr Shiva wrote the codes himself and called it EMAIL.

In proving the fact tha Dr Shiva is the inventor of EMAIL, one will have to address all the manufactured so-called controversy that began in 2012.

In the course of this debate, i will be exploring all the fake claims one after the other.

Definition of Email

Email is the electronic version of the interoffice, inter-organizational paper-based mail system. Email is not simply the exchange of text messages. Email is really a system --- a system of interlocking parts, each of which is essential for ordinary people to communicate effectively with one or many others, in an environment where different kinds of information must be shared (memos, documents, files, etc.) i.e. the modern office environment.

Interoffice, Inter-organizational Paper-based Mail System

Many people remember the interoffice paper mail system, which was the basis of how offices around the world operated, from the level of secretaries to CEOs. The interoffice mail system had a distinct set of interlocked parts. At UMDNJ, Shiva observed the parts itemized in Table 1, as documented in the materials submitted to the Smithsonian Institution. The mail system was not only used within offices but also for communication between organizations, across the three campuses of UMDNJ located at Newark, New Brunswick and Piscataway.

Features of the Interoffice, Inter-organizational Paper-based Mail System
as Observed by VA Shiva Ayyadurai at UMDNJ in 1978


Part Name

Part Description

Inbox
This was the physical inbox where a secretary received incoming documents. It was usually made of wood, metal or plastic. The courier or “office boy” or “mailroom clerk” would deliver documents – postal mail or internal memos came to the Inbox regularly, such as twice per day.

Outbox
This was a physical box of metal, wood, or plastic, for memos that were composed and edited, ready for sending to its recipients. The courier or "office boy" or "mailroom clerk" would come and pick up the mail from the Outbox regularly, sometimes twice per day.

Drafts
A memo sometimes was saved for review prior to sending. A secretary or another person would write the memo and put in a Drafts folder, which a superior would review and provide 'red-line' feedback in the Drafts folder.

Memo
This was typically a piece of 8½ by 11-inch piece of BOND paper. The top of the Memo had the words ‘++++++ MEMORANDUM ++++++’ written on it. Below that were the following areas: ‘To:’, ‘From:’, ‘Date:’, ‘Subject:’, ‘Body:’, ‘Cc:’, ‘Bcc:’ (only for view in the sender's original), and an indication with ‘Encl.:’, if attachment(s) were included.

Attachments
A Memo could sometimes indicate 'Encl.:', if attachments or enclosures such as another file folder, another document, a drawing or a photograph, or even a parcel, were included.

Folders
Mail sometimes was organized and filed in separate folders based on some subject matter.

Compose
A new memo was typically composed on a typewriter. Sometimes whiteout (a white liquid or white paper) was use to erase mistakes.

Forward (or Redistribution)
A person receiving and reviewing an incoming memo could forward or re-distribute it to others. Forwarding literally involved adding a list of other people to review the memo. Sometimes the forward list was just paper-clipped on the received memo.

Reply
Sometimes instead of writing a new memo, an employee replied to a memo received in the Inbox. The memo that was being responded to would be attached.

Address Book
Every office had an address book, which listed each person's first and last names, campus location, group (e.g. surgery, pharmacology), room number and phone number.

Groups
At UMDNJ, different groups were at different locations, such as Surgery, Pharmacology, ICU, IT. Each location had different people in different groups.

Return Receipt
This was a formal receipt that a delivery person would make sure got signed by the recipient who had been sent a registered memo. This return receipt would then have to get sent back to the original sender.

Sorting
Different locations had mail sorting facilities, where the mail would come in, be sorted by groups, departments, locations, zipcode, office numbers, so the delivery was easier.

Send
Memo to an individual meant that the ‘To:’ field had only the name of one recipient.

Receive
Memos were received by a secretary in the Inbox.

Scanning Mail
Visually reviewing the mail was the process of quickly reading the envelope or top portion of a memo, such as the ‘From:’, ‘Subject:’, lines to get an idea of which memo to read first, to put for later review, or sometimes to discard altogether.

Forwarding with RETURN RECEIPT Requested (or registered memo)
This was an important feature of the office. Sometimes, an important letter, say from a Director, would be received by a Manager, and that Manager wanted certain employees in his group to read it and make sure that they did in fact read it. So forwarding with return receipt, enabled the Manager to know exactly who got and who did not get the memo.

Editing
A memo sometimes would be edited after it was composed. Editing could be iterative based on the feedback received.

Broadcast Memo
Sometimes a memo would need to be sent to multiple recipients, not just one individual. This meant having multiple names of recipients in the ‘To:’ field. This was a complicated process, since copies had to be made – carbon copies on a typewriter. A ‘check’ mark was put next to each copy's intended recipient, so the envelope would be addressed correctly.

Sending Memo to Group
In a large organization, within and across facilities, as at UMDNJ, there were different faculty departments: Pharmacology, Surgery, etc., and one may want to send a memo to a Group. Again, copies were made, and an Address Book used for a secretary to correctly address each envelope.

Deleting
Sometimes a memo would be thrown into a trash folder for disposal.

Purging
The contents of trash folders, by request, would collected and permanently destroyed.

Updating Address Book
Address books were updated as employees came and left UMDNJ. New people were added, and those who had left were removed. Sometimes a circular was sent out which was the update to the existing Address Book, and one would have to manually insert the changes.

Prioritization
When mail was left in the Inbox, it sometimes was sorted based on some priority, and so marked.

Archiving
Memos to be kept were often put into an archive file cabinet and organized for long–term record keeping.

Carbon Copies
A secretary would typically place dark blue carbon paper between two Bond pieces of white paper and roll them into the typewriter, to create copies. The Bond paper on top was the original, the ones below was ‘Carbon Copy’ or CC. Sometimes, several Carbons were used, and sometimes if the CC list was long, the original would be mimeographed on a mimeograph machine. Then the original To: recipient would get the original, and each person on the CC list would get copies. This got more complicated if there were multiple recipients or a Group in the To: field.

Blind Carbon Copies
A Bcc list, in the header of the memo, was kept by the Sender ONLY, and others who got Carbon copies did not see the one with the BCC list. So only the sender knew who was on the Bcc list.

Registered Memo
In the hospital environment, this was a very important feature, because certain memos had to be acknowledged as received. A Memo could be flagged as a ‘Registered Memo,’ this would mean that it was treated differently for instance, the delivery person could put it in a different color envelope and ensured that recipient signed for it.

Undeliverable Notification
Sometimes a memo could not be delivered even after many Retries. In this case the delivery person would take the memo back to the sender with a note on it saying ‘undeliverable’.

Retries
All mail had to be delivered, or a real effort made to keep trying before being deemed undeliverable. This meant policy of ‘retries’ as many as 3 to 5 times, before the attempts stopped. The number of retries was a policy decision.

Securing Delivery
All mail had to be securely delivered. This meant that only the designated recipient had to get it. Typically this was ensured, as the delivery person knew who was who and knew the secretaries. Moreover, most memos were put in an individual sealed envelope, with a string closure or taped.

Transporting
All mail needed to be transported. At UMDNJ, there were many ways of transport. The delivery person could physically pick up and deliver from local office to office. Another forms of transport were pneumatic tubes forming a system on train-track-like rails. Mail among different buildings and campuses was transported by cars or trucks.

All of these parts, interconnected together, were essential to the functioning of the interoffice mail system. If any one component was taken away, such as Attachments or Folders or the ability to send Carbon Copies, you no longer had a functioning interoffice mail system.