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Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 1:27pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: If you don't know why your lack of knowledge on these basic issues shouldn't be considered knowledge, then you're worse off than I thought. While it is expected that on certain issues, many people may not have knowledge but if you're online and you've seen a few science documentaries, what else can one say when you persist in such ignorance? davidylan: Sure. You were sensitized by a source of poor information aka your religious text. Note that you're not alone in this. davidylan: Not everyone, just you. davidylan: I've been through this several times. Sometimes with you so you take the simple step of reviewing what is already available. If you were unable to understand something, then I may offer you some insight. davidylan: Nah I leave that to you as usual. davidylan: I'll let you know when I'm ready to ignore a thread so have no fears. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Nobody: 1:28pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
thehomer: bla bla bla. where is the science? |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 1:32pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: Is it? davidylan: Generate matter from nothing? You are confusing two different concepts of nothing here. There is the philosophical concept and the scientific concept. davidylan: Knowing what God would do is a fallacy? Please tell me again why you worship this God of yours. Here, we have your God simply being unpredictable. Consider this. If God exists, why do you think he would be good and not bad? davidylan: No don't waste your time on that. Simply go through the previous threads on it in which I tried to again show you what we know. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 1:34pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: For relevant information, please click here. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Nobody: 1:37pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
thehomer: As is usual, those who blab about being "educated" would rather refer you to websites even they dont understand. Its way too difficult to expect them to actually sit down and analyse their position. We know all about the big slam . . . that was not the question of the thread. The question is quite simple - where did the big slam come from? Nothing? Just to humor myself . . . i got this off the wikipedia page thehomer links to . . . of course since he has no knowledge of his own . . . According to the Big Bang model, the universe expanded from an extremely dense and hot state and continues to expand today. this is a silly claim - where did this "extremely dense and hot state" come from? So is the claim that matter and energy have ALWAYS existed? How did this "dense and hot state" result in the complex organisms we have today? How did it create such a delicately balanced universe that depends on such fine tuned laws of nature with very little room for flexibility? How then can we claim that net energy in space = 0 if matter had ALWAYS existed in the form of a "dense and hot state"? Hopefully thehomer isnt going to answer by telling us to "link here". That's all he seems capable of doing despite bleating about "knowledge". |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 1:37pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: For the science, please see my previous post. Note that you never pointed out the sort of evidence you'll accept. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 1:38pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: Good. Since you know that, do you also know about the singularity state? |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Nobody: 1:41pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
thehomer: links do not equal science. thehomer: more links and name dropping. Explain yourself. This claim is itself bogus and is simply invented to excuse the need for God. Matter at this state is of course assumed to have almost zero volume so that would presumably take care of the "how can you create something out of nothing" question. the problem being that NO ONE seems to be able to re-create this singularity state! Can we make matter have infinitesimal volume again and create complex life forms? |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 1:54pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: Simply read the links. I already told you, I will not be spoon feeding you. Simply read it and let me know what puzzles you. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Nobody: 2:15pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
thehomer: Which is quite funny because i already pulled up one portion where i am puzzled. See post #36, that came from the wiki link. Did you even read it in detail? "i will not be spoon feeding you" - code for i dont really know anything myself, i can only point you to what others think. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 3:20pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: I did not read your post. You will notice that I had not responded to it. I will do that next. davidylan: Sure you may see it that way. Just as long as you know that the others you're referring to are highly qualified and knowledgeable scientists. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Nobody: 3:27pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
thehomer: you just post without reading? And you call others ignorant? so exactly what are you responding to? thehomer: Isnt that always the case? Ignorant folk hiding behind the skirts of "highly qualified and knowledgeable scientists". Have you no opinion OF YOUR OWN that you can then back up with empirical evidence from work others have done? That is how we were taught to do science - not just piggy back on the words of others lazily. So every question you are asked, your response is merely to go pull off links you do not understand because they are "highly qualified"? I asked a simple question - you brought up the case of singularity case, what do YOU understand by it and how does that affect your theory of how the universe came about? I read the bible, but i also learnt to think independently. Its a skill you should learn too . . . before you come here bleating about the ignorance of others. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 3:33pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: And I guess you have all this knowledge of your own? Beware the Dunning-Kruger effect. davidylan: Which part of the claim is silly? You're one hilarious fellow. Are you disagreeing with the fact that the universe expanded or that it continues to expand? How's that for comprehension? It could be that this matter and energy always existed in some form. Do you not understand this possibility? Delicately balanced universe? That is an example of what is known as "puddle thinking". I wonder what your answer is. davidylan: So this is the root of your entire problem. The point isn't that the net energy in space is zero because recall that space is as a result of the expanding matter and energy. Hawking's point is that gravity when considered as negative energy counterbalances the matter and energy of the universe. Keep in mind that it wasn't matter that was in that hot and dense state but the universe in another state. davidylan: No. Since you were able to clearly point out what you were unable to understand, I simply had to try to help you along. I hope you're now better informed. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 3:44pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: What I was responding to was quoted in my post. Read it. davidylan: Opinion? You are really misguided. You will note that when I'm talking about certain phenomena, I'm not dealing with opinions but scientific evidence. It appears that your problem runs deep indeed. You were poorly taught how do do science because scientists don't simply form opinions then look around for evidence from other people's work to back them up (that is an easy way to arrive at a cognitive bias), they check the work to various levels depending on their level of expertise and see how well it also matches other theories and laws available. I wonder what sort of evidence and empirical research you did to arrive at this God of yours. davidylan: No, not every question. I wonder, do you not agree that those inferences were made by highly qualified people? Again, I wonder why you and your ilk have so much disdain for science yet you claim to use it. If you read the Bible and believe it, then I doubt that you've learned to think independently knowing its contents. On the singularity, read up on it and let me know what baffles you. There's something on it on that page. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Nobody: 4:00pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
thehomer: That's plain mischievous name-dropping. Doesnt apply to me, asking questions is not a claim to know all. You on the other hand have an already set opinion built NOT by your own careful analysis but merely regurgitating the ideas of others you clearly do not understand. thehomer: That's quite stup[i]i[/i]d. Where did this matter and energy come from? In what form did it ALWAYS exist? THAT my friend is the question not this merry-go-round nonsense. What has puddle thinking or comprehension to do with such a simple question? thehomer: Makes no sense either. If matter was NOT in the hot and dense state, where was it? Where did the hot and dense state come from? Can we re-create this state? What is the probability that given billions of years, a hot and dense state can give rise to complex biological life forms, all the delicately tuned laws of nature and the universe itself? THAT is the question again dude, not the metaphysical may-be's we keep reading all freaking day. thehomer: you've added nothing to the debate, simply rehashed the same old story. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Nobody: 4:17pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
thehomer: Evidence of what? Where is your empirical evidence for the big bang, singularity state or the claim that the universe expanded from a hot dense state? Exactly what "evidence" are you refering to? the meritless claims of Stephen Hawking? thehomer: circular reasoning. 1. since i read the bible then automatically i have not learned to think independently 2. Since virtually ALL your "opinions" have been formed by repeating what "highly qualified people" have proposed as theories without evidence (not very different from what you accuse the bible of doing) . . . that what are you? An independent thinker? Yeah right. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 4:34pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: It is not name dropping, look it up because it clearly applies to you. davidylan: I just told you that it may have always existed. There are other hypotheses. If you have a better one, I'm willing to hear it. davidylan: Look that up too. davidylan: Wow. Did you take any basic level physics courses? Have you heard of energy and matter being converted? davidylan: We do not know "where" it came from or if that is even a coherent concept. So what if we cannot re-create it? The probability? It again shows that you don't really understand how probability is used. Simply understand that we have shown that it is what happened. I see that you do not like the tentative language of science. I guess that is a core reason why you turn to religion. Not really surprising. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 4:39pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: Did you read the page I referred you to? They are clearly stated there. Simply take the time to read it. If you're having English comprehension problems, then I'm sorry I cannot help you. davidylan: Again, your ignorance manifests itself. Look up circular reasoning. It has a well known and acceptable meaning. davidylan: No, since you've read and believed the Bible, . . . . Again, this is simple comprehension. davidylan: The Bible simply collected various stories and myths of a certain tribe. There is a reason why the Bible isn't used as a scientific text you know. Being an independent thinker doesn't mean you must reject scientific knowledge and reasoning. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Nobody: 4:55pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
thehomer: If they were, Hawking would not need to be on national TV trying to prove what allegedly has STRONG EMPIRICAL PROOF. Try again. thehomer: Perhaps. I'll concede the point. thehomer: Stup[i]i[/i]d. You can believe the bible but still hold valid scientific opinions as long as there is empirical proof. Example, we hold to be true that the earth isnt flat. thehomer: Again stup[i]i[/i]d. Biased opinion masquerading as "fact". |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Nobody: 5:00pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
thehomer: Ad hominem alert. No it doesnt. thehomer: Just the same way i could simply tell you that Jonah could live in the belly of a fish for 3 days. "it may have always existed" is not empirical proof please. thehomer: ad hominem alert thehomer: Stup[i]i[/i]d again. Boils down to the daft "they always existed" argument. No empirical proof, just empty claims. thehomer: Where did you "show that it is what happened" again? Please remind me where this experiments re-creating the universe from matter and energy has happened. thehomer: Stup[i]i[/i]d again. You cant claim the bible is simply a myth when you also employ myths to explain away science. We could easily claim the bible is tentative too. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by justcool(m): 6:34pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
@thehomer and co. Please stop killing science. You guys make science a guessing game. Science does not deal with "May," "might," and etc. Be honest or informed enough to know that when the word "may or Might" is attached to a theory, that theory is not yet science. At best you might say that it is a scientific speculation. Yet a speculation is a speculation; it carries no more weight than other speculations. Please show me any scientific laws or theories that say "may." Science deals with the exact. Please consider this statement: "A body at motion May or 'May not' remain in motion unless it is acted upon by an external force" Does this sound scientific? Another example, consider: "The phenomena that causes day and night 'may' or 'may not' be caused by the rotation of the earth." Or someone can equally say "for every action their 'may' or 'may not' be a reaction." Now tell me are these statements scientific laws or certainties. You cannot disprove what you consider an uncertainty with another uncertainty. If you consider the religious views uncertain, then in your quest to prove their invalidity you should only use theories that have been tested and confirmed valid Truth. You cannot fight the religious speculations with scientific speculations. This is just a logical blunder that I find it very hard to remain silent in the face of it. Consider your statement: “I just told you that it may have always existed.” Is this statement of yours science? How does this statement carry more validity than the statement that “God always existed!” Consider another statement of yours, "It could be that this matter and energy always existed in some form." Is this statement science or voodoo? Somebody can equally say "it could be that this matter and energy existed in some form, and this form was created by God, or this form is in the mind of God, or that this form is the Holy spirit or the power of the Holy spirit." How does the possibility that matter and energy have always existed in some form disprove the need for God or the existence of God? The question remains where did this matter and energy come from? Actually the question shouldnt entail "matter" because matter is energy; so the question is where did this energy that formed everything come form? Somebody can as well assumme that this energy is God or the power of God or what people usually refer as to the Holy spirit. By saying that this energy has always exisited, you are only confirming the same thing that the religionists claim -- that God has always exisited. You are free to express your personal beliefs, but be honest enough to call them personal beliefs; don’t present them as scientific facts, for in so doing you make a ridiculous religion of science. If only enthusiast will leave science alone! Today, in their quest to fight the religious they make a mockery of science. A few decades ago there was a scientific speculation that the universe ‘might’ not require a beginning. Hardly did scientists make this speculation than enthusiast picked and used it to fight the religionists who believed that the universe was created and hence had a beginning. Today we know that the universe had a beginning, the big slam. It’s as if science is confused, they say one thing today and another tomorrow. But the fault does not lie with science, the fault lies with enthusiast who would pick up every stone of scientific speculation and throw it at the religionist as facts. Please let’s separate science from personal views and any form of speculation. Thanks. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Nobody: 7:56pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
@ justcool, you said it far eloquently than i could. I doff my hat. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Nobody: 8:07pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
justcool:Interesting summation. may God increase your knowledge. I've been following this thread for quite a little while in an attempt to 'learn' from both sides of the divide(though from the theistic view). However let me contribute my 'little' idea to buttress what u've just said about 'may' or 'might' 'may' or 'might' me thinks is used in a state of uncertainty or non exactness. Or let me say used based on probability of 50/50 chance of being correct or being wrong. Like saying the character behind the handle 'justcool' might be a man has a chance of being true or false. Until i can empirically prove that the character behind the handle is really a male as against being a female, the word 'might' or 'may' is based not on fact but rather on probability. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Nobody: 8:17pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
toba: That's exactly what justcool said . . . its funny how "may" or "might" is allowed as part of the "tentative language of science" (as thehomer likes to put it) but is a complete no no when it comes to the bible. I wonder if thehomer would expect me to say "God may exist" and consider it a valid answer. Of course while he would be insisting on clear empirical proof, he seems to be OK with bandying around scientific OPINIONS that have no basis in factual science. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by wordtalk(m): 8:49pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
I was beginning to wonder if and when someone would make sense of all this, but that up there by justcool is just . . . cool. And this - I see that you do not like the tentative language of science. - is confusing the soup altogether! While 'tentative' is indeed used in in scientific hypothesis, the way you have used it is neither scientific nor hypothetical! Scientific conclusions are tentative in the sense that all ideas are inconclusive and therefore encourage further, rigorously tested axioms to be formulated. That which is 'tentative' in science does not pass as 'science' - it is rather just a tool for speculating about things. It is therefore not the language of science that is tentative, for in doing so the 'scientist' would quite simply be cheating and thrashing about with words! You may be interested in perusing this paper: http://physics.weber.edu/johnston/research/!TheMultipleMeaningsOfTentativeScience_IHPSTfi.PDF (it is a PDF file). |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Rhino5dm: 8:51pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
How can nothing form something? Honestly i go with the creation a zillion times. Its even safer to conclude that we dont know who create the earth than the idea of just popping out from NOTHING. My new BMW just pop out from NO WHERE! NOTHING?!! This is delusion at its peak. Give me GOD any time, anyday. . .Apes & monkies are not my choice. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by Enigma(m): 9:13pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
thehomer: Sums it all up, doesn't it? And irony of irony, the same poster (in the same post) warns someone else to beware of the Dunning-Kruger effect. ![]() |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 9:57pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: Again, it seems you did not properly read the link the evidence for the big bang is there. You have also missed Hawking's point. I've stated it here before maybe you should simply watch the documentary again. davidylan: Good. davidylan: Of course. Pick and choose. Discard your Bible once science shows it is false. And calmly read through my post. Note that I did not say you couldn't do science if you believed the Bible. davidylan: What do you think the Bible is? |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 10:07pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
davidylan: It seems you didn't understand what you read. Also, you need to realize that you don't just trot out the name of a fallacy, you need to show how it actually matches what you're referring to. davidylan: Of course you could tell me that but do you believe that Jonah actually did that? You want empirical proof? In other words, you're implying that the only thing that will satisfy you is being able to observe the earliest times of the universe? Again, I simply have to ask, did you take any basic science courses? davidylan: Advising you to look something up is an ad hominem? What is wrong with you? I'll also recommend that you look up what an ad hominem is. davidylan: Again, you really need to grasp how science works. I'd refer you but you'll just start whining again. davidylan: What I'm referring to there is that we already know that the universe expanded and is still expanding. Read through the only page I referred you to. davidylan: What myth was employed in explaining science? You cannot claim that the Bible is tentative because several stories in it are simply mythological and have been shown to be so except of course if you're a "True Believer". Then you're free to deny the actual science. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 10:35pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
justcool: Science is more of a process or a tool and not just some static point of reference. Do you really think that science does not deal with may? I hope you realize the part that probability plays in science. Then the notion that science only deals with absolutes is a deeply mistaken one. The fact that one isn't dealing with absolutes doesn't mean that it is all speculation. justcool: It seems you have missed the point of how science works. Pointing out to you that it is tentative is to let you know that our current theories and laws depend on what we currently know. They could in principle be refined or changed depending on what we find out. That is how science progresses. justcool: Actually, we can and are justified in doing so because science is based on evidence and reasoning while religious speculations are in some cases simply invented whole cloth. justcool: That statement is tentative in that we may one day come to find out if it is true or not. It carries more validity because it is based on some extrapolations from what we do know e.g that energy is neither created nor destroyed. Dragging in this God of your particular religion that is conveniently left undefined who has also been receding in the face of scientific evidence is really not good enough. You would need more evidence than simply making that bald assertion. If energy has always existed in some form, what work is left for your God to do in creation? Assuming that this energy is God is quite different from the Christian concept of God, the Holy Spirit and similar entities. This is why I'd first ask which God are you talking about and what can you tell us about him? justcool: When I'm expressing personal beliefs, I point that out. Please note what I've presented as scientific facts. justcool: I notice how religious people keep agreeing with scientists that the universe commenced at some point in time yet reject the other implications that are drawn from the same disciplines. Especially when the results contradict their favourite texts. Simply realize that science is more like a process or a tool and not just a set of statements. |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 10:43pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
wordtalk: While the paper is more inclined towards the philosophy of science, how does it contradict what I said? |
Re: Curiosity: Did God Create The Universe - Stephen Hawkin by thehomer: 10:45pm On Aug 11, 2011 |
Rhino.5dm: The problem with this philosophical question is that you assume that there must have been a state of nothingness. The question becomes why would you think that? Your BMW popping out is not out of nowhere, but it is within this universe and thus not "nothing". |
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