TAO11:


We've gone through this before.

You asked for proof that Ife was greater.

And it was provided to you from the same attachment you brought along to support you.

And then you ran away silently without even saying youre sorry.

See below for a refresher:

https://www.nairaland.com/5314103/benins-first-educated-nigerians-dr/7#89077140

I never asked if Ife was greater than Benin because Ife was never and can never be greater than Benin.. I asked you to prove Ife was a great kingdom and all you can provide as proof is Benin Kingdom..

TAO11:


That's the point!

They documented it.

I didn't expect an illiterate like you to know.

(Another runaway is loading)

Shut up.. Its only in your deluded mind that non existent documents exists..

samuk:


Please prove me wrong.

Where are all the Yoruba men here. This is becoming very embarrassing. Poor TAO11, she can't insult, copy and paste her out of this, please guys, she needs your help come to her rescue.


I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

Hahahahahaha! 

If they join hands in this, then that will be tantamount to maltreating you. 

More like, Oranmiyan did his own in the real-world and we all want to bully Edos on Nairaland.

There is no need for them joining me to beat a dead-horse.


The Challenge for you:

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived.

davidnazee:


Shut up.. Its only in your deluded mind that non existent documents exists..

Be direct

Ask for it and run away.

davidnazee:


I never asked if Ife was greater than Benin because Ife was never and can never be greater than Benin.. I asked you to prove Ife was a great kingdom and all you can provide as proof is Benin Kingdom..

And when Ife was proven to be greater than Benin Kingdom as shown below:

https://www.nairaland.com/5314103/benins-first-educated-nigerians-dr/7#89077140

What did I hear or get from you?

Silence and an unceremonious runaway

davidnazee:


Shut up.. Its only in your deluded mind that non existent documents exists..

It can not be gain said that Yoruba was the lingua franca of the Benin empire. Even today, ugbodu people in delta speak yoruba and they claim to have migrated from Benin. The long and short of it is that the Benin empire like her sister Yoruba states like Ijesa, Ijebu etc are Yoruba achievements in West Africa. I

lawani:
It can not be gain said that Yoruba was the lingua franca of the Benin empire. Even today, ugbodu people in delta speak yoruba and they claim to have migrated from Benin. The long and short of it is that the Benin empire like her sister Yoruba states like Ijesa, Ijebu etc are Yoruba achievements in West Africa. I

Your noble attempt to help TAO11 out of what is turning into a very difficult challenge is noted. Only if other Yoruba men around here had made similar attempt, they run away and leave TAO11 to bear the full weight of the Benin/Ife fabrications. Very shameful.

Despite your efforts, unfortunately the challenge is yet to be met.

I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

samuk:


Your noble attempt to help TAO11 out of what is turning into a very difficult challenge is noted. Only if other Yoruba men around here had made the similar attempt, they run away and leave TAO11 to bear the full weight of the Benin/Ife fabrications. Very shameful.

Despite your efforts, unfortunately the challenge is yet to be met.

I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

In case you're not only an illiterate, but also partially amnesiac, scroll up same thread to see how I humiliated you on your moronic challenge.

I'm not sure why you need more hands in this beffitting burial I'm giving you.

So you can claim this as a case of child abuse?


Anyways, the challenge for you is still open:

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived.aid that.

lawani:
It can not be gain said that Yoruba was the lingua franca of the Benin empire. Even today, ugbodu people in delta speak yoruba and they claim to have migrated from Benin. The long and short of it is that the Benin empire like her sister Yoruba states like Ijesa, Ijebu etc are Yoruba achievements in West Africa. I

1. Benin Empire has no blood connection with Yoruba..

2. Please Ijesha and Ijebu did not achieve anything historically worth talking about.. If Ijebu and Ijesha achieved anything Yoruba won;t be bothering themselves with Benin that has continously rejected anything Yoruba..

3. Go an sleep.

davidnazee:


1. Benin Empire has no blood connection with Yoruba..

2. Please Ijesha and Ijebu did not achieve anything historically worth talking about.. If Ijebu and Ijesha achieved anything Yoruba won;t be bothering themselves with Benin that has continously rejected anything Yoruba..

3. Go an sleep.

timestamp 13:30. i won't say a word!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXvXupQwaz0&t=822s


And lastly, the Ijebus were among those responsible for clothing your cave-dwelling and fruit-gathering ancestors.

TAO11:


timestamp 13:30. i won't say a word!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXvXupQwaz0&t=822s


And lastly, the Ijebus were among those responsible for clothing your cave-dwelling and fruit-gathering ancestors.

Lol.. still grabbing at anything Benin abi..
Its on record that one of Benin major trade was in clothing.. Benin was renown for clothing trade not Ijebu..
Its also on record that Ihebu was temprarily subjugated by Mighty Benin Kingdom.

davidnazee:


Lol.. still grabbing at anything Benin abi..
Its on record that one of Benin major trade was in clothing.. Benin was renown for clothing trade not Ijebu..

Oh, you ignored your Oba saying Oranmiyan is his ancestor?? Fair enough!

And yes people can always at some later point learn to wear/sell clothes.

And I'll be waiting for your evidence on subjugation. Subjugation ko, subtitle ni.

TAO11:


Oh, you ignored your Oba saying Oranmiyan is his ancestor?? Fair enough!

And yes people can always at some later point learn to wear/sell clothes.

And you ignore statements from my Oba saying Oranmiyan is descended from Ekhaladeran known to the Yorubas as Oduduwa?? Fair enough!

davidnazee:


And you ignore statements from my Oba saying Oranmiyan is descended from Ekhaladeran known to the Yorubas as Oduduwa?? Fair enough!

I am not Edo, so I am not obliged to take the words of your Oba?

You are Edo, so you are obliged to take his words (at least from what I've known about y'all).


Moreover, it is at that particular Ekalderhan point that historians said he was saying nonsense.

And this ties-in to my $2500 challenge:
Show me Ekalderhan in any writting from 1475 to 1930.

davidnazee:


Lol.. still grabbing at anything Benin abi..
Its on record that one of Benin major trade was in clothing.. Benin was renown for clothing trade not Ijebu..
Its also on record that Ihebu was temprarily subjugated by Mighty Benin Kingdom.

LOL what cloth?
As at 1890s Bini people were mostly naked. Did you sell of all your rags in that part of Nigeria to waltz around naked till your Yoruba king clothes you?


TAO11

OgboAto:


LOL what cloth?
As at 1890s Bini people were mostly naked. Did you sell of all your rags in that part of Nigeria to waltz around naked till your Yoruba king clothes you?


TAO11

See finishing oo

OgboAto:


LOL what cloth?
As at 1890s Bini people were mostly naked. Did you sell of all your rags in that part of Nigeria to waltz around naked till your Yoruba king clothes you?


TAO11

So it should be shameful to all you Yorubas that the naked Bini people till as at 1890 were ruling your ancestors.. no be only naked, we were living on tree tops too lol..
As usual its your lies and frustration vs the truth and facts.. Even your Ijebu village was tributary to Mighty Benin Kingdom.. painful thing for you is that this will be a topic you will forever argue and try to debunk because history already recorded it..

TAO11:


And lastly, the Ijebus were among those responsible for clothing your cave-dwelling and fruit-gathering ancestors.

According to Yoruba history of Ijebu by Yoruba historians, the Ijebu did more than being tailors to Benin, please give them their full credit.

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

davidnazee:


So it should be shameful to all you Yorubas that the naked Bini people till as at 1890 were ruling your ancestors.. no be only naked, we were living on tree tops too lol..
As usual its your lies and frustration vs the truth and facts.. Even your Ijebu village was tributary to Mighty Benin Kingdom.. painful thing for you is that this will be a topic you will forever argue and try to debunk because history already recorded it..

Provide your evidence son of naked ancestors.

TAO11:


Provide your evidence son of naked ancestors.

I think that at a point in history, your ancestors were definetly running around naked too, but at no point in history were my ancestors conquered and subjugated like your ancestors were conquered for hundreds of years by my powerful naked ancestors..

samuk:


According to Yoruba history of Ijebu by Yoruba historians, the Ijebu did more than being tailors to Benin, please give them their full credit.

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

I am throwing an open challenge to anyone here to provide any mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin written history between 1475 to 1897, a 400 years period. I will send that person $1000, yes one thousand dollars to cushion the effects of these lockdown.

Wait, why did your Edo ancestors go about naked even in as recent as the 1890s?? Wow!


You keep repeating the exact same thing you've been repeatedly flogged on.

And the reason is simple: You're an illiterate with no novel content.

You became embarrassed by the source of your own copied&paste that you timidly left out the following words which refutes you.

"A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins."

See also the attached below with which you've been refuted before.

Moreover, are you partially amnesiac to have quickly forgotten how much humiliation you suffered at my hands for ths inane challenge of yours ??

Having said that, your 2500 whooping dollars challenge is still open:

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived.aid that.

davidnazee:


I think that at a point in history, your ancestors were definetly running around naked too, but at no point in history were my ancestors conquered and subjugated like your ancestors were conquered for hundreds of years by my powerful naked ancestors..

Your ancestor were still roaming the woods naked in as recent as the 1890s --- just yesterday. Wow!


Moreover, I have told you of how ordinary Ibadan raided territories within your Benin Kingdom for slaves and sacked many of its settlements.

davidnazee:


1. Benin Empire has no blood connection with Yoruba..

2. Please Ijesha and Ijebu did not achieve anything historically worth talking about.. If Ijebu and Ijesha achieved anything Yoruba won;t be bothering themselves with Benin that has continously rejected anything Yoruba..

3. Go an sleep.

how do u mean they have no blood connection? Isn't the same oduduwa their father? Isn't it the same Yoruba they spoke as lingua franca? Benin tried to subjugate Ijesa but failed. They shared boundaries, so Ijesa is great as well but smaller. I am Ijesa. Ibadan, the successor of oyo was greater than Benin in the 19th century when Benin had declined.

OgboAto:


I'll begin with the second part I emboldened. The factor you stated as the cause of the gap between the Old & New Egypt is not only incorrect but an outright oversimplification of a historical process that took a long time.

The Egyptians were conquered & reconquered by several groups starting with the Greeks, to the Romans, to the Arabs, to the several Berber tribes & Mamluks, to the Ottomans & finally the British. However, the Greek & Roman invasions were recorded to have forced migration of Egyptians into Mid-East, Sahara belt & the West of North Africa for instance thereby leaving a gap between the monuments/arts from pre-historic times and the post-Rome Egypt. The gist is, at the time the Arabs and British got there, the gap between Old & New Egypt had already been created.

For the first emboldened line, the Ife made art works in Stones, Clay, Bronze & Iron. Several of the production sites have been discovered and written about extensively by archeologists, many who made their entire careers from studies on Ile-Ife.

I have attempted to provide a snapshot of some of the studies discussing production sites of some of these works in Ile-Ife. However, there are compounds in Ile-Ife today whose Oriki describe their exploits in Stone working, Iron working, Bronze working & Bead Industry. For instance, Hon Ajilesoro, a member of the HOR, is from Obalufon house but his name describes his ancestors' role in bead making industry - their oriki explores full gist. In fact, the name 'Ajilesoro' is derived from a process of bead making.

Anyway, a few of these compounds still hold on to & operate their ancestral professions today particularly in Bronze & Iron working today using the original sites they began from in pre-historic times. Be that as it may, there appears to be a gap between the many monuments from Ife & the Ife of today [like the Egyptian monuments & the Egyptians of today] and this is due to shifts in the items of value; each Ooni from the time past seemed to have a preference for certain professions which they served as patrons for; & the wars with Modakeke leading to the expulsion of Ife for about two consecutive times leading to the migration of Ife to Isoya, Oke Igbo, Ifewara, Ifetedo where a good number refused to return for fear of the war reoccurring. For instance, Ooni Obalufon sponsored Bronze industry; Ooni Lajamisan sponsored bead industry; Ooni Lafogido sponsored stone industry; and Ooni Okiti heavily promoted Iron industry. This state backing had effected on the line of profession and item of trade the people pursued thereby causing a shift in continuity of these things. Furthermore, if you've read Wydham's account of his visit to Ife, he saw so many monuments/artifacts abandoned and many carted of by the Modakeke during the wars.

Conversely, if you look at Bini, you'll find the Bronze and Bead works in that region appear to have been continuously sponsored by every of their Kings. This long term stability created some time of preservation of profession and continuity.

You should probably say nupe artwork is the closest to yoruba artwork not benin

Learn to read books ife-benin link holds ni ground anymore by scholars

davidnazee:


I think that at a point in history, your ancestors were definetly running around naked too, but at no point in history were my ancestors conquered and subjugated like your ancestors were conquered for hundreds of years by my powerful naked ancestors..

Benin was tributary to akure, warri and Ibadan at various times.

gregyboy:



You should probably say nupe artwork is the closest to yoruba artwork not benin

Learn to read books ife-benin link holds ni ground anymore by scholars

I beg you in the name of everything you believe in, please cite 5 peer reviewed journal articles discussing zero links between Ife-Bini arts. Please

OgboAto:



I beg you in the name of everything you believe in, please cite 5 peer reviewed journal articles discussing zero links between Ife-Bini arts. Please

I had posted several in my previous comments i dont have the time to do that again

Scholars have debunked the origin of benin artwork from ife and had agree nupe artwork resembles the ife-artworks.......


The reason scholars used to trace Beni-ife artwork was the fact they believe benin and ife had a connection but that has been proved otherwise

gregyboy:




I had posted several in my previous comments i dont have the time to do that again

Scholars have debunked the origin of benin artwork from ife and had agree nupe artwork resembles the ife-artworks.......


The reason scholars used to trace Beni-ife artwork was the fact they believe benin and ife had a connection but that has been proved otherwise

You have?
Oya please mention just one so I can read-up.
Please?

OgboAto:


You have?
Oya please mention just one so I can read-up.
Please?

Nope i have posted it before i wouldn't do that again


If i happened to come across it again

gregyboy:


Nope i have posted it before i wouldn't do that again


If i happened to come across it again

Contrary to your falsehood or ignorance, it is a journal article & not a book.
Here's the reference: Lawal, Babatunde , The Present State of Art Historical Research in Nigeria: Problems and Possibilities, The Journal of African History, Vol. 18, No. 2, 1977, pp. 193-216

The key thing in the journal title is 'Problems & Possibilities', meaning the content is not out to present facts but possibly create a new vista of study. Can you people not read & analyse? What exactly is wrong with you people & what school did you go to? This entire paper hovers around the space of Speculative History yet you're here bandying it as a 'New Testament'. For better understanding, see image 1

All of what Babatunde Lawal wrote in that page & the following are speculative [I truly hope you know what that means]. An extant repository of works have suggested & argued the Ife-Bini links in art and what B. Lawal did was an attempt to look for a gap. He did not necessarily dispute the widely agreed theory of Ife's influence on Bini art but sought for a re-adjustment in chronology in Bini history because the Bini themselves kept saying their art came from Ife with not much evidence to back it up - see image 2.

P.S: You a Benin man had to resort to the work of a Yoruba man. Now when we say the Benin are nothing without the Yoruba, you'll begin to bleat all over the place like a fxking Hot goat. All of you Bini, from your monarch to the least person are attached to the nut-sack of the Yoruba for every knowledge & relevance you have and we can see that in this thread

OgboAto:


Contrary to your falsehood or ignorance, it is a journal article & not a book.
Here's the reference: Lawal, Babatunde , The Present State of Art Historical Research in Nigeria: Problems and Possibilities, The Journal of African History, Vol. 18, No. 2, 1977, pp. 193-216

The key thing in the journal title is 'Problems & Possibilities', meaning the content is not out to present facts but possibly create a new vista of study. Can you people not read & analyse? What exactly is wrong with you people & what school did you go to? This entire paper hovers around the space of Speculative History yet you're here bandying it as a 'New Testament'. For better understanding, see image 1

All of what Babatunde Lawal wrote in that page & the following are speculative [I truly hope you know what that means]. An extant repository of works have suggested & argued the Ife-Bini links in art and what B. Lawal did was an attempt to look for a gap. He did not necessarily dispute the widely agreed theory of Ife's influence on Bini art but sought for a re-adjustment in chronology in Bini history because the Bini themselves kept saying their art came from Ife with not much evidence to back it up - see image 2.

P.S: You a Benin man had to resort to the work of a Yoruba man. Now when we say the Benin are nothing without the Yoruba, you'll begin to bleat all over the place like a fxking Hot goat. All of you Bini, from your monarch to the least person are attached to the nut-sack of the Yoruba for every knowledge & relevance you have and we can see that in this thread

You're simply misinterpreting what he said deliberately


However what he meant was his intention was to shed light on the fact that benin account insisted the artworks came from ife....
He criticized that idea ife artwork came from ife and he wasnt a tribalist who quickly jumb
To the offer.....

Even i was shocked to read about this criticism coming from a Yoruba man.........


When we see the truth we should say it regardless of who we identify with



There was no oranmiyan in benin

Even when the oba his insisting there is but the truth is slaping them at thier face



Again no matter how convincing a scholar could have written he will always leave room for doubts by other writers

gregyboy:


Nope i have posted it before i wouldn't do that again


If i happened to come across it again

Your illiteracy level is so high that you post the very things that refute the point you're defending.

You're defending a weird idea that Benin art was not imported from Ife.

Yet your attachment (on the same page) insists that the Benin art was imported from Ife (but at a date latter to the prior generally held date).

In other words, the author is simply making the case worse for Benin art by insisting that Benin art is not as antique as previously thought.


You've been refuted and embarrassed on this before (till you ran away), there is no point pretending. See link below for a reminder:

https://www.nairaland.com/5807254/politcs-behind-oduduwa-myth/2#88860914

cc: OgboAto