Communism ke? Back to sender in jesus name !!!

kodewrita:

Please name one functioning country that has run communism successfully.

North Korea--Complete failure. surviving on food stamps from china, south korea and the US. Also selling weapons to miscreants.
Cuba--Existed on Soviet funds for a long time. Still deeply indebted to Russia (though not usually mentioned).
USSR-- what? LMAO.
China-- "To be rich is glorious". Mao would be ashamed to see the modern China.
Vietnam-- communist in name. just like china, its essentially a capitalist dictatorship.
Yugoslavia--see USSR above.
East Germany--Merged into West germany and generally dragging down German economy.
Libya-- touche.
Mozambique-- capitulated. Now deeply capitalist.
Byellorusia--Capitalist democracy
Romania, Hungary etc---Deeply capitalist. Failures all of them.

Yet you want us to take on a system whose very nature detests the entrepreneurialism thats the core of nigerian life. God help you if you dont fill your farm quota. Besides web designers will only be paid according to effort not the going market rate that truly values their expertise.

Lol. You must be a web designer.

MyJoe:

Lol. You must be a web designer.

Nope. Not any longer. I simply have a great affinity with them for other reasons. lol.

brainpulse:

For example when and Operating system is built round one function or application without flexibility to other applications , it fails and it becomes obsolete with time no matter the strength of technicalities of the OS.

Nigeria problem is not with the system but those operating the system. it is built by our leaders around theirselves.

Our leaders do not know any operating system of government they are just concerned with looting for there children, children's children and children children children, political fathers and fatherares, god and devil fathers etc.
Its disheartening.

Just curious, could u justify the above.

Communism will not work and all countries who have the communism at that time have big problems and look how many countries leave the comminism.

I come from a country what was very poor after the war but the people work and the government make there work, we have a good social system our schools are free also the univerities and we live good and we are one of the rich countries in the world now, our economy is better than the economic from USA.

I know a country we have a border to this country and i know what happen with this country how bad the economy was, they have the same problem after the war but this country was occupied from Russia and so they have the communism there and they want to change it 1955 but Russia didnot want it and so many people from this country leave.also when they know it could be dangerous. They have so many economic problems, and so many people from this country come to my country for work, and it will take time until they have the same economic than my country.

A minister from my country and the minister of this country make that the communism went away from most of the countries of east Europa they open the border and that was the start for better life in this countries.

USA is not that good and wounderfull country, i know that USA always look what could help them, they don't look at other countries, i know what they make with Iraq, with Afghanistan. First America give Sadam from Iraq money that he fight against the Iran and than when they feel the need the oil then they break with him.

My country also have troubles with America, when a man who was Secretary from the Uno, who help Arab countries and work against Israel, what happen to him when he wants to get president from my country, than America remember his past, why at that time and not before.

You will see so many poor people in America and only few are very rich the same than in Nigeria.

Nigeria should look at the countries in Europa not UK and America. How we make it here, what we make that the people have work,  what we have for economy, there are only few countries look at this countries and Nigeria should make it in this way, the young people should work together and not speaking i am Yoruba or Ibo, or edo or Hausa, we are Nigerian like we say we are from, . In my country we have also different tribes but this is no problem we are ,
100 years ago we where the biggest country in Europa but every tribe want there own country so they break away and no since we have Europa union we belong together or they want to come to the Europa union.

I know Nigeria a little bit but when the people work together and and they work that they make that the name of Nigeria gets a better sound in the world and people work together than Nigeria could be the best country in Africa.

okada_man:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/

^^

Karl marx's prediction and theory is not necessarily a fixed destination, it is cyclical. When you see it that way, you will not spend too much energy fighting for one theory over another.
UN via guardian.co.uk

^
Capitalism will never make everyone rich, actually I don't think it can enrich more than a few single digit % of the world at a time. The little progress we've made across the world is just a result of increase in wealth creation in the developing world. China, Asia, Latin America, which of course took some wealth away from the developed world. We are essentially shifting wealth around. That to me is redistribution too, unfortunately it goes to a few people too while the bottom poor remains extremely large.

The first thing you need to know is that it is impossible to make everybody rich. If you attended any class in Economics, one of the first things you would have learnt is that human wants are many but the resources to satisfy them is limited. So, no economic system will be able to make everybody rich because it will be nearly impossible to produce enough resources to achieve these ideal.

Take Nigeria for example our GDP for 2010 was $374.3 billion assuming we share this figure equally to every Nigerian each Nigerian (assuming a population of 150 million) will get $2495.33 which is around N374,300. This is for a whole year. So even an equatable distribution of resources will not make everybody rich, it will only make everybody poor.

It is also important to note that our GDP is this high because of capitalism. With socialism people will lose the motivation to produce. Take all the traders struggling to make trades, entering night bus, endangering their life, just to do businesses. They are taking all these risk because they have a large say on what happens to what they make at the end of the day. With socialism or communism, businesses will have the same attitude to work that civil servants have and they will end-up as unproductive as civil servant which will only reduce the resources available for redistribution and increase the poverty of everyone.

Communism is good in theory, but human factors make it impossible to implement. We have to wait until we can program humans, only then will communism work. What we need is capitalism with some welfare for the poor like affordable education, free health care, etc

nora544:

Communism will not work and all countries who have the communism at that time have big problems and look how many countries leave the comminism.

I come from a country what was very poor after the war but the people work and the government make there work, we have a good social system our schools are free also the univerities and we live good and we are one of the rich countries in the world now, our economy is better than the economic from USA.

I know a country we have a border to this country and i know what happen with this country how bad the economy was, they have the same problem after the war but this country was occupied from Russia and so they have the communism there and they want to change it 1955 but Russia didnot want it and so many people from this country leave.also when they know it could be dangerous. They have so many economic problems, and so many people from this country come to my country for work, and it will take time until they have the same economic than my country.

A minister from my country and the minister of this country make that the communism went away from most of the countries of east Europa they open the border and that was the start for better life in this countries.

USA is not that good and wounderfull country, i know that USA always look what could help them, they don't look at other countries, i know what they make with Iraq, with Afghanistan. First America give Sadam from Iraq money that he fight against the Iran and than when they feel the need the oil then they break with him.

My country also have troubles with America, when a man who was Secretary from the Uno, who help Arab countries and work against Israel, what happen to him when he wants to get president from my country, than America remember his past, why at that time and not before.

You will see so many poor people in America and only few are very rich the same than in Nigeria.

Nigeria should look at the countries in Europa not UK and America. How we make it here, what we make that the people have work, what we have for economy, there are only few countries look at this countries and Nigeria should make it in this way, the young people should work together and not speaking i am Yoruba or Ibo, or edo or Hausa, we are Nigerian like we say we are from, . In my country we have also different tribes but this is no problem we are ,
100 years ago we where the biggest country in Europa but every tribe want there own country so they break away and no since we have Europa union we belong together or they want to come to the Europa union.

I know Nigeria a little bit but when the people work together and and they work that they make that the name of Nigeria gets a better sound in the world and people work together than Nigeria could be the best country in Africa.

am guessing you are from austria and the other country is Hungary and the event you refer to was the Hungarian uprising in 1956 that was put down by Stalin's tanks. Thanks for providing needed experience.

I also don't understand this philosophy of having everyone be equal. Naturally, some human beings are more talented than others. And there are guys at the bottom who no matter what you do, will always be poor (laziness, alcoholism, drug addiction, inability to follow directions, etc.)

Again, if you suppress that top 10% of people too much (folks who probably will account naturally for some huge fraction [say 40 or 50%] of a country's productivity) and remove incentives for them to be productive, your country will suck. You'll have killed the golden goose.

ekt_bear:

I also don't understand this philosophy of having everyone be equal.

I don't think it is about "people being equal" but rather "people are CONSIDERED equal". Basically what that means is there is no class, and therefore no prejudices or favorites. The leader is on the same class as any peasant. But of course this is Utopian. This is an idealized concept. But due to the fact that human beings are supposed to make this happen, it cannot happen.

The idea is a capitalist state should strive towards achieving the "ideal" of Communism, by passing through the phase of Socialism. Therefore Socialism is the intermediate state of this progression, since it has characteristics of Communism and Capitalism.

The main problem with Communism (actually Socialism - there is a reason it's USSR and not USCR) was that it was hijacked by a bunch of psychopaths in the first real trial (Russia) and they gave it a bad name, and of course due to human fallibility it became a farce. Indeed Communism can never truly exist, but you can only tend towards it.

Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, Marxism, Fascism,Blah, Blah Blah.

How about 'Africanism'?

Why must we look to a foreign system to progress as a people's?

Corruption can be found in all the above systems. No matter whats implemented in Nigeria there will be a tendency by a few to dominate the majorrity.

logica:

I don't think it is about "people being equal" but rather[b] "people are CONSIDERED equal". Basically what that means is there is no class, and therefore no prejudices or favorites. The leader is on the same class as any peasant.[/b] But of course this is Utopian. This is an idealized concept. But due to the fact that human beings are supposed to make this happen, it cannot happen.

And how does capitalism violate bolded? Nobody is better than anyone else before the eyes of the law where I live. Just some are wealthier than others. No hereditary monarchs, titles, etc.

I think this is a separate issue from deciding on an economic system.

Who will operate the communism are they not Nigerians. Be very sure ethnic and religios colouration will crept in S L Akintola was killed, Saudana and Tafawa Balewa were killed. But those people detail to eliminate Azikiwe helped him escape. That is why Nzeowgu coop was termed ethnic.

Also you need to read Animal farm it is a very good book about communism and it is failing world wide where is communist USSR, have you seen Cuba in a TV how backward they are. China has to open up to capitalism to make ahead way.

passyjango:

The first thing you need to know is that it is impossible to make everybody rich. If you attended any class in Economics, one of the first things you would have learnt is that human wants are many but the resources to satisfy them is limited. So, no economic system will be able to make everybody rich because it will be nearly impossible to produce enough resources to achieve these ideal.

That was my point.

----------------///////--------////---------

@ekt_bear, Yes that is true, but the golden goose matters to those benefitting from the eggs, which will always be a small minority, that is why we get fierce class struggles across history, capitalism will not solve it better than communism, that was my point. Best you can do as a country is to shift the poverty overseas, but for the world as a whole no change has really occurred, people just got richer somewhere, while some new folks got poorer.

There is an implicit assumption in your point that poor folks are the sick and lazy ones, I don't think it's that simple. I'm not sure there will be any noticeable change in Macro wealth distribution if everyone has the same chance and abilities, actually it will bring the world to an end quickly I think.

ekt_bear:

And how does capitalism violate bolded? Nobody is better than anyone else before the eyes of the law where I live. Just some are wealthier than others. No hereditary monarchs, titles, etc.

So in your opinion, even with some people wealthier than others you don't already see classification? What do you think Upper Class, Middle Class, Lower Class refers to? You actually think capitalist states see people as equal? No where is there a clear distinction of classes than the Court of Law; in a capitalist state, justice is commensurate to how much you can pay for it. You can be very innocent, but not being able to afford a good lawyer could make you very guilty. That is not equality.

@okada_man: I think everyone benefits from the eggs that the top 10% lays. If a guy in the top 10% starts a business, he'll inevitably hire many folks in that bottom 90% to work for him. If his business goes under, not only does this rich man suffer, but so do all of those that he employs.

I am not saying that poor people are all sick or lazy. My point is that there is some fraction of people who no matter what you do, no matter what economic system you run, there will be some people who consume far more from society than they produce.

I'm mostly trying to debunk this idea of everyone being "equal." It isn't really true at all. The guys in the top 10%, almost everyone would want to add them to their country. Otoh, the guys at the bottom 5% are mostly burdens.

Communism has never really been practiced, we never got to that stage yet, most of the countries we commonly refer to as Communist are not really communist, they were on the road there but not there yet or never got there.

People like Mao and Lenin, Stalin latched on to Karl Marx's political tool -revolution- as a means to bring about a communist classless state, but they never finished the job, they got stuck in the uncomfortable brutal stage, the inevitable struggle and anarchy before calm. We got Leninism, Maoists, Stalinists e.t.c

They never got to the calm. Maybe there is no calm

logica:

So in your opinion, even with some people wealthier than others you don't already see classification? What do you think Upper Class, Middle Class, Lower Class refers to? You actually think capitalist states see people as equal? No where is there a clear distinction of classes than the Court of Law; in a capitalist state, justice is commensurate to how much you can pay for it. You can be very innocent, but not being able to afford a good lawyer could make you very guilty. That is not equality.

There will always be outliers in every country/society. Some very rich guys who can buy themselves excellent lawyers that can change what would otherwise be a "guilty" into an "innocent." Some very poor guys who can only afford a crappy public defendant, and thus get harsher sentences than usual.

But I think in most cases, the justice system works pretty well. I don't think focusing on outliers that are maybe 5% of cases really makes sense. Is the system broken if 95% of the time it gives the right outcome? I don't think so, personally.

@ekt_bear,

The fact that you are caught up on the "equality" concept of Communism shows you do not understand it. I have tried to explain. Money/wealth is power, and with Capitalism, of course the wealthy will always be at the very top. And no, "there will not always be outliers in every society". That is a capitalist concept.

As I pointed out, even the leader in a Communist state has the same class as the lowest class - the peasants. But the point is, if you have peasants then it is not really a Communist state, better called a Socialist state tending towards the ideal of Communism. You should not expect to have the same rights even before the law in a Capitalist state, even if the law claims otherwise.

I think capitalists are the ones thinking they have a nice fair and equal system that guarantees equity for all if you just try.

@ ekt_bear, no, not everyone, very few benefit from the eggs laid. We get this illusion that we will all die if companies collapse and innovation will vanish in the absence of capitalism.

I'm not convinced at all, capitalism can encourage innovation, but you need resources to truly innovate. Imagine how many dreams die slowly everyday without the resources to power them. I'm taking about dreams, innovation and inventions amongst the poor and lowly world majority with little access to the resources; land, capital, natural resource locked up in the developed world for their own exclusive use either by sheer force or subtle manipulation and control.

That is similar to the same situation during feudalism, the same situation Karl Marx was trying to solve. If the rich landowners give up control, we will all die? No! we will have the chance to spread the resources to power innovation to more people.

If they die, they free up resources for me and mine, capitalism is not as wonderful as people make it out to be and it's collapse will not necessarily end the world.

The poster is funny. We have a situation where former bastions of communism are abandoning the cause and embracing capitalism in one form or another and you want Nigeria to become a communist state? Na wa for you o. The model, although lofty in principle, is not a sustainable economic or social model. How can you work hard and suffer while another person chills at home and you end up the with the same economics. How does this encourage entrepreneurship ( the life blood of any economy) or desire to improve oneself. I can understand having a welfare state to assist the disadvantaged - but communism ke? This died a long time ago.

One other point people don't seem to realize is, Nigeria operates at a higher level of Capitalism than even the US. Or how else do you explain a bleeding person taken to the hospital only to be allowed to bleed to death in the lobby because the family could not come up with the 500,000 deposit? That is Capitalism; it is a system closer to our cave-men ancestors. There is little or no empathy in Capitalism. And it is the same system that led to the take over of Australia, Canada, the US, New Zealand etc by the whites, while nearly wiping out the natives of those lands. That is Capitalism.

logica:

One other point people don't seem to realize is, Nigeria operates at a higher level of Capitalism than even the US. Or how else do you explain a bleeding person taken to the hospital only to be allowed to bleed to death in the lobby because the family could not come up with the 500,000 deposit? That is Capitalism; it is a system closer to our cave-men ancestors. There is little or no empathy in Capitalism. And it is the same system that led to the take over of Australia, Canada, the US, New Zealand etc by the whites, while nearly wiping out the natives of those lands. That is Capitalism.

Wetin concern capitalism with empathy? The point is to make money, not to be a charity.

Regarding the hospital, if they treat everyone regardless of their ability to pay, how long will the hospital be able to stay open? You realize that healthcare costs money, right? And nobody can stay open for long if he sells something (healthcare) for less than it costs?

W/o hospitals being able to recover their costs and make profit, nobody will have any incentive to keep 'em open

ekt_bear:

Regarding the hospital, if they treat everyone regardless of their ability to pay, how long will the hospital be able to stay open? You realize that healthcare costs money, right? And nobody can stay open for long if he sells something (healthcare) for less than it costs?

As I had pointed out, quite a number of "Capitalist" countries have free healthcare; clearly a Socialist concept, not so?

Nothing in life is "free." Everything costs money. There is no such thing as free healthcare, free education, free roads, or even free amala or subsidized kerosene. All of these things represent a tradeoff.

"Free" healthcare means the gov't taxes the populace then redistributes the money on healthcare.

FWIW, I am not against the government providing some of these "free" services. I'm believe in free and mandatory primary and secondary education in Nigeria. It might be possible to have some limited healthcare plan too.

But this is pretty close to the limit of free things I think the government should provide to everyone. Almost everything else I think has to justify itself.

ekt_bear:

"Free" healthcare means the gov't taxes the populace then redistributes the money on healthcare.

. . . which is still a Socialist concept - "even" redistribution of resources.

please o ! no communism in Nigeria. If we are this bad in a free-enterprise system I shudder to think of what'll happen in a communist-based regime.

logica:

. . . which is still a Socialist concept - "even" redistribution of resources.

What is your point? I don't think anyone here is saying all socialist ideas are bad. Some of them are good. Others can be good, in the right setting.

ekt_bear:

What is your point?

Wetin concern capitalism with empathy? The point is to make money, not to be a charity.

I'm mostly trying to debunk this idea of everyone being "equal.

There is really nothing to debunk when you don't even understand what you are "debunking".

my brother, try capitalism in Nigeria and Nigeria will completely run down. You seem to be looking at things from an all things being equal perspective. in Nigeria, however, things are not equal and communism would ruin us. the thing about communism is this; in theory, it is logical but in reality it is difficult to find its succeses. communism is a product of idealism, a product of the notion of an equal world which is plain impossible. capitalism is a product of realism, the fact of an equal world, the survival of the fittest.

the fact is this. communism revolves around government. meaning that if you are planning on a succesful communist system of economy, you should at least have a transparent and altruistic government, an unknown at this moment in this country. distribution of resources and provision of key goods and services are managed by government. considering the failures of successive governments in our country, i wouldn't place such responsibility in the hands of our government. especially as our government is trying to hand over as much of its responsibilities as possible to the private sector, a clear indicator of its failures at management and distribution.

my brother, try capitalism in Nigeria and Nigeria will completely run down. You seem to be looking at things from an all things being equal perspective. in Nigeria, however, things are not equal and communism would ruin us. the thing about communism is this; in theory, it is logical but in reality it is difficult to find its succeses. communism is a product of idealism, a product of the notion of an equal world which is plain impossible. capitalism is a product of realism, the fact of an equal world, the survival of the fittest.

the fact is this. communism revolves around government. meaning that if you are planning on a succesful communist system of economy, you should at least have a transparent and altruistic government, an unknown at this moment in this country. distribution of resources and provision of key goods and services are managed by government. considering the failures of successive governments in our country, i wouldn't place such responsibility in the hands of our government. especially as our government is trying to hand over as much of its responsibilities as possible to the private sector, a clear indicator of its failures at management and distribution.

Have you ever lived in a compound (or yard) where resources are shared like toilet, PHCN meter, water, etc? If you have, you will know communism is not practical. Take the issue of settling the PHCN bill. Woe betide you if you are the one responsible for collecting the payment bill, you will be hearing all sorts of stories from your fellow tenants. Some will even lock themselves inside pretending not to be at home.

They will give you every excuse in the world just to avoid payment of their bills, yet they will be the first to turn on their TV when the light is on. That is human nature and that is why communism will always fail until maybe when we evolve to better beings in the next phase of evolution in some millions of years to come.

No country has fully achieved socialism let alone its highest state, communism. The society has & shall evolve from communalism to slavery to feudalism to capitalism to socialism and to communalism. Nigeria is yet to fully achieve feudalism (according to critics) let alone capitalism as we are yet to manufacture from start to finnish that which is needed to develop our economy. Nigeria, though better than most of its counterparts, is gradually underdeveloping. Our economy depends on buying and selling. Crude oil is exported, the proceeds are used to import 'the already manufactured' by capitalists nations; agriculture is dying, we are still importing rice, untill mechanized farming is given the necessary boost, unemployment rate reduced, (recent report released shows that about 100,000 Nigerians apply for visa to america weekly, not to mention other western countries; while they are developing we are underdeveloping) we'll remain in the realm of feudalism (farming with hoes and cutlass, eating from hand to mouth) far from capitalism let alone socialism, then communism.