Thought?

xcabczyxabczzzz:
Thought?

Is there heaven?

xcabczyxabczzzz:
Thought?

What is free will? What in man embodies this "free will"?

WaffenSS:


Is there heaven?

Assuming there is.

Kobojunkie:

What is free will? What in man embodies this "free will"?

Having total control of what you want to do?

xcabczyxabczzzz:

Having total control of what you want to do?

OK. So whose heaven are you referring to here? Jesus' heaven? or that of another religion or belief?

Kobojunkie:

OK. So whose heaven are you referring to here? Jesus' heaven? or that of another religion or belief?

Christian

xcabczyxabczzzz:

Assuming there is.

If freewill ever existed, it means heaven won't. Man's life on earth and the concept of heaven are mutually exclusive.

Ps:

There's a catch in the statement above. Let's see if you can get it

xcabczyxabczzzz:

Christian

Um... OK, according to Jesus, one of the requirements to becoming his disciple is you need to die to self(ego)... that part of self that seeks control. The understanding is that as a follow of Christ, one is REQUIRED to abandon control of one's life in totality -- DIE TO IT. Bye bye free will!

And since that is a prerequisite for entering Jesus' heaven, it is not far reaching to assume then that free will does not exist in the Kingdom of God.

WaffenSS:

If freewill ever existed, it means heaven won't. Man's life on earth and the concept of heaven are mutually exclusive.
Ps:
There's a catch in the statement above. Let's see if you can get it

I disagree with the claim above. I see no catch only an error in logic.

Kobojunkie:

I disagree with the claim above. I see no catch only an error in logic.

Precisely the catch

Predestination is the actual ideology that's inconsistent with a heaven.

WaffenSS:

Precisely the catch
Predestination is the actual ideology that's inconsistent with a heaven.

While I do not subscribe to the many doctrines of men, I am of the mind that God did not lie when he said He indeed has a plan for all things from even before it was all made; His plan not being inconsistent with heaven.

Kobojunkie:

While I do not subscribe to the many doctrines of men, I am of the mind that God did not lie when he said He indeed has a plan for all things from even before it was all made; His plan not being inconsistent with heaven.

Depends on what his plans are.

if his plan means predestination of man then heaven is a contradiction.

xcabczyxabczzzz:
Thought?

There's no free will here on Earth

WaffenSS:

Depends on what his plans are.
if his plan means predestination of man then heaven is a contradiction.

Our idea of predestination does not even encompass His supposed idea of "predestination", so I wouldn't be quite to conclude, if I were you.

onlyinJESUS:

There's no free will here on Earth

Then everything is justifiable.

xcabczyxabczzzz:

Then everything is justifiable.

yes, including being punished for something you couldn't help.

onlyinJESUS:
yes, including being punished for something you couldn't help.

Why should I punish you for something I program you to do?

onlyinJESUS:
yes, including being punished for something you couldn't help.

What the heck? What do you even understand free will to mean?

Kobojunkie:

Our idea of predestination does not even encompass His supposed idea of "predestination", so I wouldn't be quite to conclude, if I were you.

Predestination means the lack of freewill and where all paths that man follows are predetermined.

Therefore if the paths and actions of man were already laid out for him even before he was created, then his choices are a mere illusion, and the idea that man will be rewarded with heaven or punished with hell based on false choices is a contradiction.

In predestination man's fate is sealed, and his choices are mere pebbles in the stream of time.

WaffenSS:

Predestination means the lack of freewill and where all paths that man follows are predetermined.Therefore if the paths and actions of man were already laid out for him even before he was created, then his choices are a mere illusion, and the idea that man will be rewarded with heaven or punished with hell based on false choices is a contradiction.
In predestination man's fate is sealed, and his choices are mere pebbles in the stream of time.

As I attempted earlier, it likely that man's understanding of each falls shorts of the true meaning that God has for each. After all God's thoughts are higher then out thoughts and His ways higher than our ways that there is no way for us to completely and utterly claim full understanding of the things of God.
My exposure to God has lead me to believe that it is in fact possible to have predestination and free will coexist. The way I came to God leaves me with no doubt of this -- but that is another story for another thread.
Surely free will does exists in this world of ours... however the excerpts below, from the book of Jeremiah, about Jeremiahs own call does confirm predestination, not according to man's doctrine ofcourse

Taken from Jeremiah 1 vs 4 -10
-----------------------------------------------
4 The Lord’s message came to me:

5 “Before I made you in your mother’s womb,
I knew you.
Before you were born,
I chose you for a special work.
I chose you to be a prophet to the nations.”

6 Then I said, “But, Lord God, I don’t know how to speak. I am only a boy.”

7 But the Lord said to me,

“Don’t say, ‘I am only a boy.’
You must go everywhere I send you
and say everything I tell you to say.
8 Don’t be afraid of anyone.
I am with you, and I will protect you.”
This message is from the Lord.

9 Then the Lord reached out with his hand and touched my mouth. He said to me,

“Jeremiah, I am putting my words in your mouth.
10 Today I have put you in charge of nations and kingdoms.
You will pull up and tear down.
You will destroy and overthrow.
You will build up and plant.”

WaffenSS:


Depends on what his plans are.

if his plan means predestination of man then heaven is a contradiction.

It's not everyone that is predestined by God

xcabczyxabczzzz:
Thought?

I don't think so
But there will be freedom in God's will
So No, no man's will

onlyinJESUS:
There's no free will here on Earth

there is free will on earth
The Lord's prayer: let God's will be done on earth

xcabczyxabczzzz:

Then everything is justifiable.

only the things predestined by God are justifiable

WaffenSS:


Predestination means the lack of freewill and where all paths that man follows are predetermined.

Therefore if the paths and actions of man were already laid out for him even before he was created, then his choices are a mere illusion, and the idea that man will be rewarded with heaven or punished with hell based on false choices is a contradiction.

In predestination man's fate is sealed, and his choices are mere pebbles in the stream of time.

Then you see the lie of the devil prompting men to believe in their free will, which is a lie and an illusion as you put it.

Hell is created as a result of those who propagate such lies. A will that goes against God's will

Mdmelijah:
It's not everyone that is predestined by God

How do you men?

As far as i know it is said that the actions of man were predetermined before man was created. That's fate.

Now my point is, if a man's path was predetermined to be a sinner's path, why should that man go to hell?

Heaven and hell work in a world where man is free from the bounds of fate, where man has the freewill to choose his path in the (rather simplistic) binary system of right and wrong. Only then would a heaven and hell make sense.

Mdmelijah:
there is free will on earth
The Lord's prayer: let God's will be done on earth

now the question is, isn't God's will done here on Earth?

Mdmelijah:
It's not everyone that is predestined by God

What do you mean?.. Are you in anyway suggesting that some people are created to be destroyed?

onlyinJESUS:

now the question is, isn't God's will done here on Earth?

Yes it is...

onlyinJESUS:
now the question is, isn't God's will done here on Earth?

Yes it is...

WaffenSS:


How do you men?

As far as i know it is said that the actions of man were predetermined before man was created. That's fate.

Now my point is, if a man's path was predetermined to be a sinner's path, why should that man go to hell?

Heaven and hell work in a world where man is free from the bounds of fate, where man has the freewill to choose his path in the (rather simplistic) binary system of right and wrong. Only then would a heaven and hell make sense.

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30


Those who God predestined, those ones He justified and he also glorified. #simple