Aegerine:



Would you derive any benefits from my reply or you just want to drag me into what I am ordinarily not disposed to

Just answer the question. Any antagonism is coming from you right now.

Aegerine:


It amazes me how you are able to feel perfectly okay after all these vituperations against Allah..

If you don't belief in him, you should at least know that billions of people do. Please advance your points without reviling against Allah.. Thank you

Your Allah in the Qur'an dehumanize non-believers and used denigratory words, did he gave his point without reviling against non-believers?, your god is not special. You get that?

LordReed:


Just answer the question. Any antagonism is coming from you right now.

Okay.. Here we go

Allah has endowed man with the faculties of sight, hearing and reasoning to be able to chat through our course in life. Those facilities are enough to scale through our worldly affairs. That is the reason why humanity has attained such an enviable status in terms of technological breakthrough, and the likes where humanity is today. The faculties also to a large extent have helped to the realization of a supreme being in control of affairs.

For instance, our sighting and reflections on the rising and setting of sun and the moon, the movements of the cloud which sometimes pour down heavy rain that revive once dead and barren earths to spring forth with lush green vegetations, the regulation of world population between birth and death, the heights of the mountains, the natural resources of the earths without most of which existence on earth would not be possible, our being in the most conducive planet; earth rather than mercury where all lives would automatically burn to death, or Pluto where freezing to death to death would occur, the compatibility of pregnancy in the womb (which is more of a foreign body which the antibodies should try to attack but had been sustained to grow to full terms by the will of Allah), the variations of the skin colors, tribes and races, the natural ability of every individuals to pick their mothers tongue without any efforts on their parts, the sustainability of billions humans and countless numbers of other creatures oon daily basis humanities, the alternation of the night and day with the purposes that they serve, the expansiveness of the earths to provide space for billions and billions of people, the galaxies in the outer space, and many other of the delicate balances that sustain the universe can never and never be attributed to nature, or just happenstance occurrences. These are all enough to point to the realization of the creator.


However, Allah in his infinite mercy did not only leave us to make do with all the above as He is very much aware that our intellect would not be sufficient enough to guide us unto him. He therefore took it upon himself to send down prophets one after the other until he has sent over a hundred and twenty four thousands (124, 000+) of them to guide humanity and to call there awareness unto him. That is coupled with all the above signs and manifestations and many more.

All these are enough for a living heart to realize the existence of the creator.. Insha Allah, I will end it here as I will no longer respond to any mention on this topic again.

May Allah guide you alright, and keep us firm upon guidance.

Aegerine:



Okay.. Here we go

Allah has endowed man with the faculties of sight, hearing and reasoning to be able to chat through our course in life. Those facilities are enough to scale through our worldly affairs. That is the reason why humanity has attained such an enviable status in terms of technological breakthrough, and the likes where humanity is today. The faculties also to a large extent have helped to the realization of a supreme being in control of affairs.

For instance, our sighting and reflections on the rising and setting of sun and the moon, the movements of the cloud which sometimes pour down heavy rain that revive once dead and barren earths to spring forth with lush green vegetations, the regulation of world population between birth and death, the heights of the mountains, the natural resources of the earths without most of which existence on earth would not be possible, our being in the most conducive planet; earth rather than mercury where all lives would automatically burn to death, or Pluto where freezing to death to death would occur, the compatibility of pregnancy in the womb (which is more of a foreign body which the antibodies should try to attack but had been sustained to grow to full terms by the will of Allah), the variations of the skin colors, tribes and races, the natural ability of every individuals to pick their mothers tongue without any efforts on their parts, the sustainability of billions humans and countless numbers of other creatures oon daily basis humanities, the alternation of the night and day with the purposes that they serve, the expansiveness of the earths to provide space for billions and billions of people, the galaxies in the outer space, and many other of the delicate balances that sustain the universe can never and never be attributed to nature, or just happenstance occurrences. These are all enough to point to the realization of the creator.


However, Allah in his infinite mercy did not only leave us to make do with all the above as He is very much aware that our intellect would not be sufficient enough to guide us unto him. He therefore took it upon himself to send down prophets one after the other until he has sent over a hundred and twenty four thousands (124, 000+) of them to guide humanity and to call there awareness unto him. That is coupled with all the above signs and manifestations and many more.

All these are enough for a living heart to realize the existence of the creator.. Insha Allah, I will end it here as I will no longer respond to any mention on this topic again.

May Allah guide you alright, and keep us firm upon guidance.

Thanks man for taking your time to explain this (even though I have contrary opinion)

I have a question. Not compulsory to reply if you don't know.

I have read Qur'an times without numbers and I see the stories of prophets that appears more than once (more of a repetition) e.g musa, eesa. I was wondering why God didn't mention prophets that come from other part of the world other than Israel and Arabs. Even in the israa waliraj, all the prophets that Muhammad met on his way were isrealite prophets. I would like to know the prophet that was sent to China, Japan, Nigeria etc.

Xmuslim:


Thanks man for taking your time to explain this (even though I have contrary opinion)

I have a question. Not compulsory to reply if you don't know.

I have read Qur'an times without numbers and I see the stories of prophets that appears more than once (more of a repetition) e.g musa, eesa. I was wondering why God didn't mention prophets that come from other part of the world other than Israel and Arabs. Even in the israa waliraj, all the prophets that Muhammad met on his way were isrealite prophets. I would like to know the prophet that was sent to China, Japan, Nigeria etc.

I decided to reply you once more because I can see signs of receptiveness in you. Perhaps, Allah may guide you to that which is good for you. At this point, I must reiterate it that I am a student of knowledge and not in anyway an authority or scholar of islam, but I can share my little knowledge with others.

Allah sent raised and sent many prophets among their nations and sent them to their people to call them to order.. The geographical connotations of Nigeria, Japan, China etc were not in existence then.

Over 124,000 prophets were sent, but only 25 of them were mentioned in the Qur'an, and 5 amongst those 25 mentioned stood out as the arch prophets. Only Allah have the knowledge about the multitudes of the unmentioned Prophets; about their tribes and their nations.

However, at a certain point in time, the Israelites were the chosen ones, and Allah raised many prophets among them, but the last Prophet; Muhammad (Sallalu Alayhim Wa Salaam) after which their is no any other Prophet have been sent to the whole of humanity from the time he was raised to the last human being to come to the world, even though he has been raised among the Arabs. That is where Allah chooses him to come from.

Finally, the Qur'an being the revealed in Arabic is because Arabic is the most sophisticated and comprehensive language on the face of the earth, and the immediate people whom the prophet was to address where his people. Therefore, he was to communicate with them in a language that they all understand.

If any further thing, I hope someone else can step in or you send a DM. Thank you

Aegerine:



Okay.. Here we go

Allah has endowed man with the faculties of sight, hearing and reasoning to be able to chat through our course in life. Those facilities are enough to scale through our worldly affairs. That is the reason why humanity has attained such an enviable status in terms of technological breakthrough, and the likes where humanity is today. The faculties also to a large extent have helped to the realization of a supreme being in control of affairs.

For instance, our sighting and reflections on the rising and setting of sun and the moon, the movements of the cloud which sometimes pour down heavy rain that revive once dead and barren earths to spring forth with lush green vegetations, the regulation of world population between birth and death, the heights of the mountains, the natural resources of the earths without most of which existence on earth would not be possible, our being in the most conducive planet; earth rather than mercury where all lives would automatically burn to death, or Pluto where freezing to death to death would occur, the compatibility of pregnancy in the womb (which is more of a foreign body which the antibodies should try to attack but had been sustained to grow to full terms by the will of Allah), the variations of the skin colors, tribes and races, the natural ability of every individuals to pick their mothers tongue without any efforts on their parts, the sustainability of billions humans and countless numbers of other creatures oon daily basis humanities, the alternation of the night and day with the purposes that they serve, the expansiveness of the earths to provide space for billions and billions of people, the galaxies in the outer space, and many other of the delicate balances that sustain the universe can never and never be attributed to nature, or just happenstance occurrences. These are all enough to point to the realization of the creator.


However, Allah in his infinite mercy did not only leave us to make do with all the above as He is very much aware that our intellect would not be sufficient enough to guide us unto him. He therefore took it upon himself to send down prophets one after the other until he has sent over a hundred and twenty four thousands (124, 000+) of them to guide humanity and to call there awareness unto him. That is coupled with all the above signs and manifestations and many more.

All these are enough for a living heart to realize the existence of the creator.. Insha Allah, I will end it here as I will no longer respond to any mention on this topic again.

May Allah guide you alright, and keep us firm upon guidance.

It's unfortunate you no longer want to respond since you really didn't answer my question.

Aegerine:


I decided to reply you once more because I can see signs of receptiveness in you. Perhaps, Allah may guide you to that which is good for you. At this point, I must reiterate it that I am a student of knowledge and not in anyway an authority or scholar of islam, but I can share my little knowledge with others.

Allah sent raised and sent many prophets among their nations and sent them to their people to call them to order.. The geographical connotations of Nigeria, Japan, China etc were not in existence then.

Over 124,000 prophets were sent, but only 25 of them were mentioned in the Qur'an, and 5 amongst those 25 mentioned stood out as the arch prophets. Only Allah have the knowledge about the multitudes of the unmentioned Prophets; about their tribes and their nations.

However, at a certain point in time, the Israelites were the chosen ones, and Allah raised many prophets among them, but the last Prophet; Muhammad (Sallalu Alayhim Wa Salaam) after which their is no any other Prophet have been sent to the whole of humanity from the time he was raised to the last human being to come to the world, even though he has been raised among the Arabs. That is where Allah chooses him to come from.

Finally, the Qur'an being the revealed in Arabic is because Arabic is the most sophisticated and comprehensive language on the face of the earth, and the immediate people whom the prophet was to address where his people. Therefore, he was to communicate with them in a language that they all understand.

If any further thing, I hope someone else can step in or you send a DM. Thank you

The Qur'an can mention Israel but cannot mention China, India, Greece, Rome etc Lol. Even if some country names today doesn't exist in the past, they had previous names. But for India, Greece, Rome, Ethiopia etc those are very ancient country names and non mentioned any Prophet from Allah came to them, they'd their religions.

Go and read history mister.

Aegerine:


I decided to reply you once more because I can see signs of receptiveness in you. Perhaps, Allah may guide you to that which is good for you. At this point, I must reiterate it that I am a student of knowledge and not in anyway an authority or scholar of islam, but I can share my little knowledge with others.

Allah sent raised and sent many prophets among their nations and sent them to their people to call them to order.. The geographical connotations of Nigeria, Japan, China etc were not in existence then.

Over 124,000 prophets were sent, but only 25 of them were mentioned in the Qur'an, and 5 amongst those 25 mentioned stood out as the arch prophets. Only Allah have the knowledge about the multitudes of the unmentioned Prophets; about their tribes and their nations.

However, at a certain point in time, the Israelites were the chosen ones, and Allah raised many prophets among them, but the last Prophet; Muhammad (Sallalu Alayhim Wa Salaam) after which their is no any other Prophet have been sent to the whole of humanity from the time he was raised to the last human being to come to the world, even though he has been raised among the Arabs. That is where Allah chooses him to come from.

Finally, the Qur'an being the revealed in Arabic is because Arabic is the most sophisticated and comprehensive language on the face of the earth, and the immediate people whom the prophet was to address where his people. Therefore, he was to communicate with them in a language that they all understand.

If any further thing, I hope someone else can step in or you send a DM. Thank you

thanks again man. You usually take your time to write a response. I respect you for that and I know how it feels when one think he is trying to help people out of hell fire. No reason to write in a hash tone to people like you. You have a good heart.

Although, your post is more like defending Qur'an rather than a satisfactory answer and this is why some of us will remain kufar and will be happy with our status.

Until we get satisfactory answers to all the blemishes in the Qur'an, we can't help it but abandon the faith.

Good luck in your endeavour sir

tintingz:


Again...

If I and everyone wasn't born the Idea of honouring, respect, worship etc, nothing won't matter!

Allah created humans for his own selfish reason just for humans to worship him or you burn in hell, that's some narcissistic behavior. He's an independent omnipotent being, what does he gain in worshipping him?

I'm not denying the existence of God, your God doesn't exist to even deny it existence, anyways keep worshiping your imaginary narcissistic God. I wonder why he didn't approve of 50 prayers daily to you people.

You can't wish away your existence nor the fact that you were brought into this world via your parents, the fact that there are actions and consequences and the fact that you are in perpetual doubt with regards to the fundamental questions about our existence and the existence of the universe.

The fact here is that God matters to you. How many years is it that you have denied God but still here asking questions about this God?! Does God need your worship? Do you think you are indispensable?! How long are you going to live for that you think God needs your worship?! If God throws you in Hell to burn for eternity, how does this suggest He needs you or your worship?!

You can say anything you like about God, you know what defeats all your above claims?! That God is the most Merciful and would forgive you once you sincerely repent and believe! Some had said worse and done worse than you, yet God's Mercies reached them, they repented and returned to the fold of Islam, and that is why we as Muslims are always hopeful until death comes... It is not too late for you.

sino:


You can't wish away your existence nor the fact that you were brought into this world via your parents, the fact that there are actions and consequences and the fact that you are in perpetual doubt with regards to the fundamental questions about our existence and the existence of the universe.

The fact here is that God matters to you. How many years is it that you have denied God but still here asking questions about this God?! Does God need your worship? Do you think you are indispensable?! How long are you going to live for that you think God needs your worship?! If God throws you in Hell to burn for eternity, how does this suggest He needs you or your worship?!

You can say anything you like about God, you know what defeats all your above claims?! That God is the most Merciful and would forgive you once you sincerely repent and believe! Some had said worse and done worse than you, yet God's Mercies reached them, they repented and returned to the fold of Islam, and that is why we as Muslims are always hopeful until death comes... It is not too late for you.

So why do some muslims institute death penalty for apostasy?

sino:


You can't wish away your existence nor the fact that you were brought into this world via your parents, the fact that there are actions and consequences and the fact that you are in perpetual doubt with regards to the fundamental questions about our existence and the existence of the universe.

The fact here is that God matters to you. How many years is it that you have denied God but still here asking questions about this God?! Does God need your worship? Do you think you are indispensable?! How long are you going to live for that you think God needs your worship?! If God throws you in Hell to burn for eternity, how does this suggest He needs you or your worship?!

You can say anything you like about God, you know what defeats all your above claims?! That God is the most Merciful and would forgive you once you sincerely repent and believe! Some had said worse and done worse than you, yet God's Mercies reached them, they repented and returned to the fold of Islam, and that is why we as Muslims are always hopeful until death comes... It is not too late for you.

Lol, Circular reasoning. Ok.

If you and I were not born, God won't matter, so in this case you owe nobody worship or gratitude for bringing you into this world because they can simply leave you non-existence where nothing matters.

LordReed:


So why do some muslims institute death penalty for apostasy?

Capital punishments are carried out by an Islamic State and not by individual Muslims. There is a process before a death penalty is pronounced, and most importantly, when it is established that a person has committed a crime against the Islamic State and the shariah punishment for such a crime is death.

The Islamic State's constitution is Islam (Qur'an and Sunnah), so any action or activity that undermines this constitution can be termed has treason, and the shariah Court would determine this. In an Islamic state, religion is beyond a personal conviction, it is a government, a state. Even at this level, there is always the opportunity to argue your case, you would meet with scholars who would come and have a discussion with you regarding genuine questions about your apostasy, and the duration for this differ according to different schools of thought...Other faiths are accommodated and protected by the shariah.

Tintingz had renounced Islam and I haven't seen anyone here, to the best of my knowledge, threaten him with death! Even in an Islamic state, if you keep your apostasy to yourself, no one would harm you, and you can always leave such places...We as Muslims are given the permission by the shariah to migrate to a more favourable place to practice our religion if and when where we are is not!

sino:


Capital punishments are carried out by an Islamic State and not by individual Muslims. There is a process before a death penalty is pronounced, and most importantly, when it is established that a person has committed a crime against the Islamic State and the shariah punishment for such a crime is death.

But you made it sound like Muslims generally allow one leave the religion without repercussion. You stated it as if there'd be a amenable discussion of the apostate's reasons. And if he was unwilling to revert he'd be free to go on.

The Islamic State's constitution is Islam (Qur'an and Sunnah), so any action or activity that undermines this constitution can be termed has treason, and the shariah Court would determine this. In an Islamic state, religion is beyond a personal conviction, it is a government, a state. Even at this level, there is always the opportunity to argue your case, you would meet with scholars who would come and have a discussion with you regarding genuine questions about your apostasy, and the duration for this differ according to different schools of thought...Other faiths are accommodated and protected by the shariah.

Why should it be part of a government's duty to police which religion it's citizens espouse? Is religion not an individual decision?

Tintingz had renounced Islam and I haven't seen anyone here, to the best of my knowledge, threaten him with death! Even in an Islamic state, if you keep your apostasy to yourself, no one would harm you, and you can always leave such places...We as Muslims are given the permission by the shariah to migrate to a more favourable place to practice our religion if and when where we are is not!

Is that not because he doesn't live in a shariah bound state? If he was in a shariah bound state then his fate would be death like you stated.

sino:


Capital punishments are carried out by an Islamic State and not by individual Muslims. There is a process before a death penalty is pronounced, and most importantly, when it is established that a person has committed a crime against the Islamic State and the shariah punishment for such a crime is death.

The Islamic State's constitution is Islam (Qur'an and Sunnah), so any action or activity that undermines this constitution can be termed has treason, and the shariah Court would determine this. In an Islamic state, religion is beyond a personal conviction, it is a government, a state. Even at this level, there is always the opportunity to argue your case, you would meet with scholars who would come and have a discussion with you regarding genuine questions about your apostasy, and the duration for this differ according to different schools of thought...Other faiths are accommodated and protected by the shariah.

Tintingz had renounced Islam and I haven't seen anyone here, to the best of my knowledge, threaten him with death! Even in an Islamic state, if you keep your apostasy to yourself, no one would harm you, and you can always leave such places...We as Muslims are given the permission by the shariah to migrate to a more favourable place to practice our religion if and when where we are is not!

I've very well being threatened with death or imprisonment.

AbdelKabir(he has deactivated his account) once said I would have been judged by the Sharia for apostasy, which we know the punishment.
https://www.nairaland.com/3633247/cousin-marriage-islam/2#53844499

I'm sure you were in that thread, it was my transition period.

This your Muslim brother in the link said "he hope Bala is forgotten and may I join him soon".
https://www.nairaland.com/5923291/absurdity-hypocrisy-muslims-beliefs#90644041

Majority Muslims can't take apostasy without threaten you directly or indirectly.

Cc. LordReed

Actually there are things no Muslim can justify logically, and this is why it is called faith. They have no choice though even if such things are not in agreement with common sense. Anyone that tend to agree with his brain on those issues may eventually apostate, and this is why we have ex-Muslims. Examples of such issues are

1. Why should God of the Qur'an requires our worship and threaten us with hell if we don't?

2. Why would God condemn a non-Muslim with good character to eternal hell, but admit Boko Haram, Abacha etc to paradise just because they died as a Muslim. They will say anyone that didn't commit shirk will eventually enter paradise

3. Why did God decide to allow his previous scriptures to get currupted (according to Islamic belief) but preserve only Qur'an.

4. Why did God of the Qur'an perform miracles in the past when no one was there to verify. Kaaba was destroyed many times after Muhammad but we have suratul fihl.

Let me stop here

tintingz:


I've very well being threatened with death or imprisonment.

AbdelKabir(he has deactivated his account) once said I would have been judged by the Sharia for apostasy, which we know the punishment.
https://www.nairaland.com/3633247/cousin-marriage-islam/2#53844499

I'm sure you were in that thread, it was my transition period.

This your Muslim brother in the link said "he hope Bala is forgotten and may I join him soon".
https://www.nairaland.com/5923291/absurdity-hypocrisy-muslims-beliefs#90644041

Majority Muslims can't take apostasy without threaten you directly or indirectly.

Cc. LordReed

Someone even liked the post, to show they are in agreement. Why does someone saying they no longer want your religion such a threat?

LordReed:


Someone even liked the post, to show they are in agreement. Why does someone saying they no longer want your religion such a threat?

It's just how Abrahamic Religions indoctrinates people, they can't take any criticism without resulting to threats, you can't speak out as a non-theist in a Religious dominated area and not having fear of being harmed. It's just how they're programmed. Religion is a cult, you leave, you're condemned.

LordReed:


But you made it sound like Muslims generally allow one leave the religion without repercussion. You stated it as if there'd be a amenable discussion of the apostate's reasons. And if he was unwilling to revert he'd be free to go on.

I have made appropriate clarification with regards to the fact that only the state has the authority, and you still are given the opportunity to discuss your peculiar contentions... There is a difference between the Islamic state and the Muslims... Muslims would generally leave you to your disbelief after reasoning with you and hope and pray that Allah's Mercies reaches you before it is too late (and this is established in the shariah), while the Islamic state might see your actions and activities as treason that warrants a capital punishment...

Why should it be part of a government's duty to police which religion it's citizens espouse? Is religion not an individual decision?

In Islam, the religion is a way of life, it is what makes and maintains the society, as I said, it's beyond personal conviction. Of course like any other system of government, it ensures its preservation, sovereignty and integrity.

Is that not because he doesn't live in a shariah bound state? If he was in a shariah bound state then his fate would be death like you stated.

Well, depending on his actions and activities in an Islamic state. And I would think any reasonable person would be circumspect and not throw caution to the wind, by intentionally seeking to undermine a legitimate government!

tintingz:


I've very well being threatened with death or imprisonment.

AbdelKabir(he has deactivated his account) once said I would have been judged by the Sharia for apostasy, which we know the punishment.
https://www.nairaland.com/3633247/cousin-marriage-islam/2#53844499

I'm sure you were in that thread, it was my transition period.

This your Muslim brother in the link said "he hope Bala is forgotten and may I join him soon".
https://www.nairaland.com/5923291/absurdity-hypocrisy-muslims-beliefs#90644041

Majority Muslims can't take apostasy without threaten you directly or indirectly.

Cc. LordReed

The quote from Abdelkabir says you would be judged by the shariah in an Islamic state. That is no death threat from an individual Muslim! Of course if you live in an Islamic state, you will be judged by the shariah! You do not live in a country with laws and then break the laws of the land and then cry that they are being judged with the law of the land.

The second quote too isn't a death threat, Bala to the best of my knowledge was arrested and not killed...

You only cited two cases which does not hold water, yet you are claiming that majority of Muslims can't take apostasy without threatening you... Sigh! Do you know how many Muslims have changed their religion especially in the SW and yet are alive and kicking?!

sino:


I have made appropriate clarification with regards to the fact that only the state has the authority, and you still are given the opportunity to discuss your peculiar contentions... There is a difference between the Islamic state and the Muslims... Muslims would generally leave you to your disbelief after reasoning with you and hope and pray that Allah's Mercies reaches you before it is too late (and this is established in the shariah), while the Islamic state might see your actions and activities as treason that warrants a capital punishment...




In Islam, the religion is a way of life, it is what makes and maintains the society, as I said, it's beyond personal conviction. Of course like any other system of government, it ensures its preservation, sovereignty and integrity.

You haven't answered why it should be the business of government to police the religion of its citizens. It is tantamount to government policing the choice of colours, why would the government concern itself with it?

Besides you speak as though the government is not made up of muslim individuals. The government is not some inanimate object, it is humans making decisions and they made a decision to condemn people to death for refusing Islam.

Well, depending on his actions and activities in an Islamic state. And I would think any reasonable person would be circumspect and not throw caution to the wind, by intentionally seeking to undermine a legitimate government!

Huh? Choosing not to believing in Allah undermines the government? In what way?

On the subject of killing apostates.

I have a relative that was raised Christian, but converted to Islam at around 16 years of age after spending a holiday in Katsina with her Muslim friends.
She converted back to Christianity a few years ago, while she was working as a teacher in Niger state, she did not declare her conversation, but stopped wearing the hijab. Her colleges noticed and started sending death threats to her, she had to leave the state in fear of her life.

My conclusion.
Si.no's post makes it seem like there are procedures that happen and there needs to be a court order before anyone can end the life of some who leaves the religion.
Or that they need to publicly declare their apostasy before someone decides there life is forfeit.

That is misleading, any individual Muslim that takes offense from it and feels entitled enough that they are on the side of good and are carrying out Allah and the prophet's command will decide that they can end a person's life because they left Islam and think nothing of it, because they are just doing exactly what they are thought and what they think is right.
I would extend this to even the cases of blasphemy. Same way Muslim students were rioting and willing to end a Christian student's life because he forwarded a blasphemous message to a whatsapp group in my school about 2 years ago.

LordReed:


You haven't answered why it should be the business of government to police the religion of its citizens. It is tantamount to government policing the choice of colours, why would the government concern itself with it?

Besides you speak as though the government is not made up of muslim individuals. The government is not some inanimate object, it is humans making decisions and they made a decision to condemn people to death for refusing Islam.

I had answered this, the constitution of the Islamic state is the shariah (Qur'an and Sunnah). Is it wrong to defend and protect a country's constitution?! The modern day government in some parts of the world is meddling into sexual orientation, gender dichotomy, and even limiting the number of children of citizens so why should religion be left out?! The government should be concerned with everything that affects the human condition, and religion plays an important role!

Huh? Choosing not to believing in Allah undermines the government? In what way?

Nope, I used the words, action, activities, treason to show that to undermine a government goes beyond not accepting the government as legitimate...

IMAliyu:
On the subject of killing apostates.

I have a relative that was raised Christian, but converted to Islam at around 16 years of age after spending a holiday in Katsina with her Muslim friends.
She converted back to Christianity a few years ago, while she was working as a teacher in Niger state, she did not declare her conversation, but stopped wearing the hijab. Her colleges noticed and started sending death threats to her, she had to leave the state in fear of her life.

My conclusion.
Si.no's post makes it seem like there are procedures that happen and there needs to be a court order before anyone can end the life of some who leaves the religion.
Or that they need to publicly declare their apostasy before someone decides there life is forfeit.

That is misleading, any individual Muslim that takes offense from it and feels entitled enough that they are on the side of good and are carrying out Allah and the prophet's command will decide that they can end a person's life because they left Islam and think nothing of it, because they are just doing exactly what they are thought and what they think is right.
I would extend this to even the cases of blasphemy. Same way Muslim students were rioting and willing to end a Christian student's life because he forwarded a blasphemous message to a whatsapp group in my school about 2 years ago.

And this is not the case of jungle justice meted out on thieves, witches, kidnappers etc. that pervades our society when there is a legitimate government and appropriate government institutions to handle such cases?!

There is what Islam teaches and there is what some Muslims do, after all, Boko haram too are claiming to be doing the right thing by killing innocent people including women and children but is it what Islam teaches?!

sino:


And this is not the case of jungle justice meted out on thieves, witches, kidnappers etc. that pervades our society when there is a legitimate government and appropriate government institutions to handle such cases?!

There is what Islam teaches and there is what some Muslims do, after all, Boko haram too are claiming to be doing the right thing by killing innocent people including women and children but is it what Islam teaches?!

I wouldn't like the government snooping in my private life and personal beliefs as long as it doesn't cause any trouble to others.
They might as well create a 'thought police' branch of the government while they are at it./s

Fundamentalist thinking is just following aspects of the theology to their logical extremes.

It's far more intellectually easier to be a fundamentalist than to be an average Muslim.
Because fundamentalism like BH is just following a literalist (the simplest) approach to the religion rather than having someone trying to explain and interpret it for you in various different contexts.

The mindset is
Why do you oppose Western education = because it contradicts the Quran.
Why do you kill disbelievers and apostates = because the Quran verses and Hadith told us to
Why do you oppose modern life = because the messenger and his companions didn't live like that.
Why do you kill blasphemers = because the hadiths said so.
Why do you take slaves = because Islam allows it, if not why are there rules on how to treat a slave

As opposed to the longer argument a regular Muslim has to poss.
Why do you not kill disbelievers = because the Quran verses and Hadith are to be understood in historical context when the Muslims and Meccans were at war with each other.
Why are you ok with Western education = because life is changing and job requirements and we want our children to be successful and have high paying jobs.
Why not slaves = because slaves have been a part of human history for a while that is why Islam has rules for how to treat them, but slavery is no longer a thing so we don't follow it.
Why do you have non-Muslim friends = because the word used in the Quran translates to protector and it means do not have non believers as your protectors and not friends.
etc.

The point is you have to make a longer argument for why you don't support some extremist behaviors
Than an extremist's simpler explanation for his actions.

Is it what Islam teaches?
Unfortunately there are no gate keepers to the understanding of Islam since it is derived from the Quran and Hadith, and even BH and jungle justice people derive their understanding and justification from the same books.
The issue lays from the fact that enough people can derive such understandings from just reading the books themselves. This is the reason the Muslim world is not going to rid itself from extremists any time soon.

sino:


The quote from Abdelkabir says you would be judged by the shariah in an Islamic state. That is no death threat from an individual Muslim! Of course if you live in an Islamic state, you will be judged by the shariah! You do not live in a country with laws and then break the laws of the land and then cry that they are being judged with the law of the land.

The second quote too isn't a death threat, Bala to the best of my knowledge was arrested and not killed...

You only cited two cases which does not hold water, yet you are claiming that majority of Muslims can't take apostasy without threatening you... Sigh! Do you know how many Muslims have changed their religion especially in the SW and yet are alive and kicking?!

I can boldly tell you an atheist that come out in southwest is in danger.

Anyways you just proved my point, if we're in Shari'a state I would have been killed, this is a threat meaning I'm only alive because we're not in an Islamic state! Ok, if we're in Shari'a state, you, AbdelKabir and others would want me killed right? Bala was imprisoned, your muslim brother wants me imprisoned too and forgotten?
This is a threat and any rational person will see it's.

Imagine having a debate and someone told you you show a lot of disbelieve that if we're in a Sharia state you would have been killed. That's an indirect threat, such person in his mind wants his opponent killed.

Majority Muslims are ready to kill non-believers, the only thing holding them in some countries is the lack of Sharia law to carry out their murder.

IMAliyu:
On the subject of killing apostates.

I have a relative that was raised Christian, but converted to Islam at around 16 years of age after spending a holiday in Katsina with her Muslim friends.
She converted back to Christianity a few years ago, while she was working as a teacher in Niger state, she did not declare her conversation, but stopped wearing the hijab. Her colleges noticed and started sending death threats to her, she had to leave the state in fear of her life.

My conclusion.
Si.no's post makes it seem like there are procedures that happen and there needs to be a court order before anyone can end the life of some who leaves the religion.
Or that they need to publicly declare their apostasy before someone decides there life is forfeit.

That is misleading, any individual Muslim that takes offense from it and feels entitled enough that they are on the side of good and are carrying out Allah and the prophet's command will decide that they can end a person's life because they left Islam and think nothing of it, because they are just doing exactly what they are thought and what they think is right.
I would extend this to even the cases of blasphemy. Same way Muslim students were rioting and willing to end a Christian student's life because he forwarded a blasphemous message to a whatsapp group in my school about 2 years ago.

Any Muslim that said "you would have been punished if we're in Shari'a state" is threatening his opponent indirectly. That's what he has in his mind to kill his opponent, the only thing stopping him is the lack of Sharia law to justify what he has in his mind, such person is threatening you Indirectly under the disguise of the bolded words.

@sino, apostasy does not threaten the government in any way. Even the Islamic government knows this. Take Saudi as a case study, even Muslim however knowledgeable cannot be the king of the country if he's not from the Royal family. Thus, a Muslim will be a threat if he think he's entitled to rule the country, but an apostate will not be a threat if he does not have such ambition.

I think the main reason why Muhammad gave the killing verdict is this: there were people that left the religion during the time of the Muhammad and he realised they were able to convince others out of Islam. Thus, he was threatened because it was a game of number during his time. The more the Muslim, the more the chance of victory. This is another reason why I think Islam isn't divine.


You will understand my analogy if you study the way the apostate is treated before his faith is decided in Islamic state.

1. He will be killed without the chance of repentance if he has spread negative words about Islam. For example if he point out fallacies in the Qur'an

2. He will be allowed to live if he hasn't spread negative words nor committed blasphemy provided he renounce his disbelief. Note that he will be monitored from that moment on.

No sane human will think that someone you made to renounce his disbelief at the point of gun did it directly from his heart.

Note: I understand that Saudi is not a perfect Islamic country, but they are the most Islamic country in the world at the moment.

IMAliyu:

I wouldn't like the government snooping in my private life and personal beliefs as long as it doesn't cause any trouble to others.
They might as well create a 'thought police' branch of the government while they are at it./s

There is a principle in Islam that state judgment is based on the apparent. Let me give you information from Islamic history:

"Abdur Rahman ibn Awf reported: He would patrol the city at night with Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, and on one occasion they were walking when the lamp of a household caught their attention. They approached it until they heard loud voices inside the door. Umar grabbed the hand of Abdur Rahman and he said, “Do you know whose house this is?” He said no. Umar said, “This is the house of Rabi’ah ibn Umayyah ibn Khalaf, and they are inside drinking wine right now! What do you think?” Abdur Rahman said, “Indeed, I think we have done what Allah has prohibited for us. Allah Almighty said, ‘Do not spy,’ (49:12) and we have spied on them.” Umar turned away and he left them alone."

Source: al-Mustadrak 8198

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Dhahabi

Above gotten from Here

We have a rich history of how the Islamic state is run, from the Prophet (SAW) down to his companions, all we need to do is research more from sincere scholars and sources....

IMAliyu:

Fundamentalist thinking is just following aspects of the theology to their logical extremes.

It's far more intellectually easier to be a fundamentalist than to be an average Muslim.
Because fundamentalism like BH is just following a literalist (the simplest) approach to the religion rather than having someone trying to explain and interpret it for you in various different contexts.

The mindset is
Why do you oppose Western education = because it contradicts the Quran.
Why do you kill disbelievers and apostates = because the Quran verses and Hadith told us to
Why do you oppose modern life = because the messenger and his companions didn't live like that.
Why do you kill blasphemers = because the hadiths said so.
Why do you take slaves = because Islam allows it, if not why are there rules on how to treat a slave

As opposed to the longer argument a regular Muslim has to poss.
Why do you not kill disbelievers = because the Quran verses and Hadith are to be understood in historical context when the Muslims and Meccans were at war with each other.
Why are you ok with Western education = because life is changing and job requirements and we want our children to be successful and have high paying jobs.
Why not slaves = because slaves have been a part of human history for a while that is why Islam has rules for how to treat them, but slavery is no longer a thing so we don't follow it.
Why do you have non-Muslim friends = because the word used in the Quran translates to protector and it means do not have non believers as your protectors and not friends.
etc.

The point is you have to make a longer argument for why you don't support some extremist behaviors
Than an extremist's simpler explanation for his actions.

Is it what Islam teaches?
Unfortunately there are no gate keepers to the understanding of Islam since it is derived from the Quran and Hadith, and even BH and jungle justice people derive their understanding and justification from the same books.
The issue lays from the fact that enough people can derive such understandings from just reading the books themselves. This is the reason the Muslim world is not going to rid itself from extremists any time soon.

The emphasis should be on educating the Muslim community on what Islam teaches and expose the fallacy of the extremist! FYI, just a Qur'anic verse and a hadith can easily expose the lies of the extremist. Extremism isn't that simple and has few followership compared to the majority of the Muslims. If extremism was that easy to be derived from the Qur'an and hadith, then the majority of the Muslims anywhere they are in the world would be on a killing spree...but is that the case? Righteous scholars from time had been gate keepers of the religion after the demise of the Prophet (SAW), and they have always been available to teach, but how many are willing and ready to learn?! Seeking knowledge is obligatory in Islam, and that is why you have to learn the religion, not only by reading the texts, but having a teacher, a righteous teacher!

tintingz:


I can boldly tell you an atheist that come out in southwest is in danger.

Anyways you just proved my point, if we're in Shari'a state I would have been killed, this is a threat meaning I'm only alive because we're not in an Islamic state! Ok, if we're in Shari'a state, you, AbdelKabir and others would want me killed right? Bala was imprisoned, your muslim brother wants me imprisoned too and forgotten?
This is a threat and any rational person will see it's.

Imagine having a debate and someone told you you show a lot of disbelieve that if we're in a Sharia state you would have been killed. That's an indirect threat, such person in his mind wants his opponent killed.


Majority Muslims are ready to kill non-believers, the only thing holding them in some countries is the lack of Sharia law to carry out their murder.

Keep twisting and turning...the worst anyone would do to you here is to shun you, family would disown you, but kill you?! lol, you have to bring evidence of such by Muslims in the SW!

Xmuslim:
@sino, apostasy does not threaten the government in any way. Even the Islamic government knows this. Take Saudi as a case study, even Muslim however knowledgeable cannot be the king of the country if he's not from the Royal family. Thus, a Muslim will be a threat if he think he's entitled to rule the country, but an apostate will not be a threat if he does not have such ambition.

I think the main reason why Muhammad gave the killing verdict is this: there were people that left the religion during the time of the Muhammad and he realised they were able to convince others out of Islam. Thus, he was threatened because it was a game of number during his time. The more the Muslim, the more the chance of victory. This is another reason why I think Islam isn't divine.


You will understand my analogy if you study the way the apostate is treated before his faith is decided in Islamic state.

1. He will be killed without the chance of repentance if he has spread negative words about Islam. For example if he point out fallacies in the Qur'an

2. He will be allowed to live if he hasn't spread negative words nor committed blasphemy provided he renounce his disbelief. Note that he will be monitored from that moment on.

No sane human will think that someone you made to renounce his disbelief at the point of gun did it directly from his heart.

Note: I understand that Saudi is not a perfect Islamic country, but they are the most Islamic country in the world at the moment.

Ibn al-Qayyim says:

“Killing is only obligatory when facing warfare and armed combat not when facing kufr (disbelief). For this reason, neither women are to be killed nor children, or the elderly, nor the blind nor those worshippers who do not fight, rather we fight against those who fight us. This was the way of the Messenger of Allaah in dealing with the people of the earth, he used to fight those who fought against him until they either entered into the deen, make an agreement or treaty with him or came under his authority via paying the jizya. This is what he used to instruct his armies if they fought against their enemies, as has preceded from the Hadeeth of Buraydah”. [“Ahkam Ahl al-Dhimmah”, 1/17].

Ibn Taymiyah says:
“The foundation is that the blood of Bani Aadam is sanctified and inviolable and no one is killed except with right. Killing due to kufr (disbelief) is not something which the legislations have agreed upon at any one time of the Shariah, such as killing the one who sits out of combat, for this is something that the legislations and intellect do not differ over. The blood of a disbeliever during the early history of Islaam was sanctified and inviolable just like the original sanctity of a person. Allaah prevented the Muslims from killing such a disbeliever”. ["As-Sarim Al-Maslool", 104].


Al-Sarakhsi Al-Hanafi writes in “Al-Mabsoot”:
“The original ruling (al-asl) is that the lives of Adam’s progeny are protected, and it will become permissible when they partake in battle. And when the war has ended by a truce, then the original ruling of protection applies gain”. ["Al-Mabsoot", 12/165].

Hafiz Ibn Taymiyah writes:
“Its narrated from Abu Hanifah that disbelief (kufr) is not a reason to kill someone and a person is fought for his muharabah (war against the muslims), so the person who is not a fighter should not be killed”. ["As-Sarim Al-Maslool", 247].

The above clearly explains my point from the beginning, that an apostate might be sentenced to death if his actions/activities are related to treason in an Islamic state!

Also with regards to your claim about the Prophet (SAW) and why the law on apostate was introduced and that you are compelled to renounce disbelief at gun point, please read:

Before the loss of data on Nairaland, I had posted documented proceeding of the conference of Riyad on Muslim doctrine and human rights in Islam, a conference which was held in 1972 between Saudi delegates and European commission of jurists.

In that report, it categorically stated that:

"Religious freedom to everyone and prohibition of any exercise of force in this respect, in response to God’s Sayings in the Glorious Qur’an: “Let there be no compulsion in religion.” (Q2, 256) and “Wilt thou then compel mankind against their will to believe!” (Q10, 99). This sayings show how the use of pressure on man’s freedom is denounced."

Again, in the same report, apostasy was also mentioned, and explained...

Regarding the prohibition of a Muslim to change his religion and which is considered by a man alien to Islam to be also a restriction violating Article (18) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which gave every person the right to change his religion and on which the kingdom also gave its reservations at the time of the drafting of the charter, [b]we say that according to the reasoning of Islam, this is not a restriction on the freedom of every person to change his religion, but is the outcome of a historical incident. It was established to curb a Jewish conspiracy which was plotted in the early days of Islam when all the Arabs of the city of al Madinah Al Munawwara united themselves after an armed conflict between them caused by the Jewish refugees. The Jews then craftily thought to let some of them join Islam then renounce it in order to make the Arabs suspect their religion and be misled. A law originated from that incident preventing a Muslim from changing his religion and threatening to penalize him so that nobody could join Islam excepting after making rational and scientific study of its doctrines ending with his permanent acceptance of the Muslim creed. That was meant to cut off the way for evil men and their like of superficial people, under the threat of punishment, from joining Islam, for the sake of extirpating malicious elements who have been persisting in spreading evil on Earth.[/b]

It is clear from the reasoning of Islam respecting this point also that it does not spring from the logic of restriction of freedom but rather from logic of the curbing of the intrigues of the plotters who are addicted to the spread of evil in the world. Thus, this matter is purely an Islamic interpretation-Ijtihad-which is one of the requirements of freedom of opinion. It should not be opposed by a counter-interpretation, for everyone has his own interpretation of things, and we have our own interpretation which is supported by historical facts, and our concern on not letting anyone join Islam excepting those who believe in it in a positive and decisive manner. This shows the extent of sacredness attached to the faith which Islam does not allow to be superficial and subject to the misleading of evil persons.

If anyone was paying attention, I had stated that the shariah court MIGHT sentence an apostate to death if such criminality as treason can be deduced from his actions and activities...

sino:

There is a principle in Islam that state judgment is based on the apparent. Let me give you information from Islamic history:

"Abdur Rahman ibn Awf reported: He would patrol the city at night with Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, and on one occasion they were walking when the lamp of a household caught their attention. They approached it until they heard loud voices inside the door. Umar grabbed the hand of Abdur Rahman and he said, “Do you know whose house this is?” He said no. Umar said, “This is the house of Rabi’ah ibn Umayyah ibn Khalaf, and they are inside drinking wine right now! What do you think?” Abdur Rahman said, “Indeed, I think we have done what Allah has prohibited for us. Allah Almighty said, ‘Do not spy,’ (49:12) and we have spied on them.” Umar turned away and he left them alone."

Source: al-Mustadrak 8198

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Dhahabi

Above gotten from Here

We have a rich history of how the Islamic state is run, from the Prophet (SAW) down to his companions, all we need to do is research more from sincere scholars and sources....



The emphasis should be on educating the Muslim community on what Islam teaches and expose the fallacy of the extremist! FYI, just a Qur'anic verse and a hadith can easily expose the lies of the extremist. Extremism isn't that simple and has few followership compared to the majority of the Muslims. If extremism was that easy to be derived from the Qur'an and hadith, then the majority of the Muslims anywhere they are in the world would be on a killing spree...but is that the case? Righteous scholars from time had been gate keepers of the religion after the demise of the Prophet (SAW), and they have always been available to teach, but how many are willing and ready to learn?! Seeking knowledge is obligatory in Islam, and that is why you have to learn the religion, not only by reading the texts, but having a teacher, a righteous teacher!

Maybe simple wasn't the right word 'lazy' may had been more fitting.

I'm aware of most of this history.

The fact is majority of Muslims, just like any other people are good people that don't really want to harm anyone, and only a minority are truly bad people and they will use any means they can to justify their actions and sometimes because of their conviction that they are on the right side can sometimes influence others.
But I don't think you've ever seen good people become ideologically possessed and are willing to do something not because it's logically right, but because it's what they were thought to think is correct.

A question is how do you differentiate the righteous scholars from the un-righteous ones?

Modified post

sino:

I had typed a response to you but unfortunately it disappeared...any ways, make do with responses to others.

This is the nonsense response of yours, you posted it in between my post.

Keep twisting and turning...the worst anyone would do to you here is to shun you, family would disown you, but kill you?! lol, you have to bring evidence of such by Muslims in the SW!

Atleast you agree with the intolerance among Muslims.