When I was a Muslim, I had to force myself to accept all the injunctions in the Qur'an and hadith even if they did not seems fair to me. My excuse was Allah knows the reason.

This thread is not meant to insult Allah or Islam. It is to open up our heart and say those things we didn't like about Islam out loud without insult.

This thread assume there is Allah without doubt. So, please don't derail by asking whether God exist or not.

I know the title is not good. I will update as soon as I see a befitting recommendation

Important
Remember we didn't create Islam. We met it here either via our parents or society. Thus, it is not a taboo if we dislike some things about it.

I will start:

1. I dislike the fact that Islam claims that every non-Muslims will enter hell fire forever. If they did good, their reward is in this dunya (life), but nothing in the hereafter. I always cry whenever I recited verses that talk about those stuffs. I didn't like that idea but I had to let go my desire and accept Allah judgement. I had to accept that Allah is fair, even though that act seems unfair

2. I wished Allah didn't allow bible to undergone curruption. Abrahamic religion would have been more united if the curruption didn't take place. But since quran and hadith insist that Bible had been currpted. I had to let go my wish. As usual, I concluded that Allah knows best.

3. I wished Allah didn't allow Islam to split into 73 I think. The hadith says all will enter hell except one. I don't like the fact that Qur'an and hadith describe God as a being that seems wicked. But as usual, I killed the thinking by saying Allah knows best.

4. I didn't like the fact that Allah gave us a book that is not very clear. Qur'an says some verses are ambiguous and those with sickness in their mind will be Misled by those verses. Again, I said to myself Allah knows best.

Let me stop for now.

Any time the thought of those things I didn't like about the God I was worshiping came to my mind and lasted a few hours. I undergone depression. I wished I was never born into this life. I thought of suicide when I was a Muslim because of these problems.

I saw this life as the most pathetic place for human since most of them would end in hell for eternity. I didn't commit the suicide for some reasons part of which is the hadith that says one will continue to commit the suicide in hell for eternity

First and foremost the way women are treated. Women are not even allowed to participate in certain things like sports, political positions e.t.c



the fact that most terrorist use the quaran to justify their killings and bombings.



699

I wish Allah had told Africans the truth about his origin and the origin of humanity.

I wish Allah had been a deity/entity that was science-oriented and less focused on worship (religion).

Africa and this planet would have been more peaceful and developed much faster than this.

wow this guy above me!!! shoooo d tin dey pain am ooo

Sino, iamaliyu and other Muslims. Come to the thread let's pour out our mind in the most sincere manners. It does not stop you from being a Muslim and this thread will not contain any insult inshaAllah

I know we are afraid of hell fire. Even atheists are afraid of turture. But let's just speak out our mind even if for once

4. I wish Allah didn't ask us to worship him despite him being all powerful. I wish he based salvation on good akhlaq(character) only.

Things i wished Allah should have done when I was a Muslim.

1. Stop the killing of apostates
2. Stop the Killing of non-believers
3. Stop the Killing of adulterers
3. Stop the Killing of homosexuals
4. Women having equal rights with men
5. Should have never created humans and Satan if he knew many will burn in hell for eternity.
6. Should have never allowed Adam and Eve to eat the fruit he himself put there.
7. Immediate divine help and justice
8. Allah shouldn't be hiding
9. He should never allowed slavery.
10. He should have never allowed people like Hitler, Mao, Stalin and many evil serial murderers exist.
11. Should have not allowed natural disasters, diseases exist
12. Should have made everyone have unified morality and beliefs.
13. Killing of children in Noah's, Moses and Lot story.
14. Killing people with flood which didn't solve anything
15. Killing the people of Sodom and Gomorah when he can avoid doing that from onset.

I can go on and on

I don't like anything about Allah.

I do not like the fact he claims his religion is the last and final one ( what a large claim he makes)
I do not like the fact that he speaks only Arabic, common! I thought he was omniscient

We all want good things, but life can never offer good things. Good and evil must exist for life to balance.

And the creature don't dictate to the creator. Just like it is impossible for the chair the carpenter made to dictate how he wants to be constructed to the carpenter.

Y'all should ponder and reason.

Rilwayne001:
We all want good things, but life can never offer good things. Good and evil must exist for life to balance.

And the creature don't dictate to the creator. Just like it is impossible for the chair the carpenter made to dictate how he wants to be constructed to the carpenter.

Y'all should ponder and reason.

From your explanation, you mean that we should submit to the creator since he's superior. You are right from islamic perspective.
whatever Allah does is the best.

But this thread is about what you don't like about what Islam teaches. It does not necessarily mean that you will be able to tell Allah to change his mind. For example, I don't want anyone to be in hell forever, but that doesn't mean Allah will change his mind.

since we all have active mind, I know you must have something you want in a different way from how Islam reveals it. Can you tell us sir?

Xmuslim:


From your explanation, you mean that we should submit to the creator since he's superior. You are right from islamic perspective.
whatever Allah does is the best.

But this thread is about what you don't like about what Islam teaches. It does not necessarily mean that you will be able to tell Allah to change his mind. For example, I don't want anyone to be in hell forever, but that doesn't mean Allah will change his mind.

since we all have active mind, I know you must have something you want in a different way from how Islam reveals it. Can you tell us sir?

Did you take into cognizance my allegory of the carpenter and the chair?

Rilwayne001:
We all want good things, but life can never offer good things. Good and evil must exist for life to balance.

If God is true, evil and good can exist only if God loves evil. God is all-good, allowing evil to exist contradict his all-good nature.

And the creature don't dictate to the creator. Just like it is impossible for the chair the carpenter made to dictate how he wants to be constructed to the carpenter.

A chair isn't a sentient entity, you should have look for a better analogy.

But let's assume a chair is a sentient entity, what's wrong telling the carpenter what it want or what he should have done?

Y'all should ponder and reason.

You should also ponder and reason, I think you need it more.

tintingz:
If God is true, evil and good can exist only if God loves evil. God is all-good, allowing evil to exist contradict his all-good nature.

He's all good and also all wisdom. It's not possible for the chair to have more wisdom or similar wisdom like the carpenter.

He alone knows the true reason why evil exists. But from my own little understanding, I can make you see from my perspective.

For things to work out fine in this world, there must be evil. When we have good solely, then good becomes valueless because it'll start losing meaning. This same logic can be applied to the notion of money. Money is good, ask yourself, why can't the government print a lot of it for the poor to meet the rich standards?
Obviously because it'll become valueless and will cause inflation and consequently economic depression. I've applied this same logic to good and bad too. When there's no bad whatsoever and only peace, peace becomes valueless and even bring greater misfortune worse that bad.

Although to God his overall wisdom. We only know a fraction of what he wants us to know through our intellect.

A chair isn't a sentient entity, you should have look for a better analogy But let's assume a chair is a sentient entity, what's wrong telling the carpenter what it want?

We've argued this before, I can't afford to waste my time again.

You should also ponder and reason, I think you need it more.

We all need it more. We'll need to think and ponder more everyday. Atheist refused to think, the major reason why you think there's nothing special in human anatomy. Smh.

Rilwayne001:


Did you take into cognizance my allegory of the carpenter and the chair?

yes. It means chair (if conscious) may have objections, but because of lack of power, he dare not object the carpenter.

Similarly, you may have objection in your mind. Even though you cannot object your God, we want you to air out your objection. It is that simple!.

Rilwayne001:


He's all good and also all wisdom. It's not possible for the chair to have more wisdom or similar wisdom like the carpenter.

He alone knows the true reason why evil exists. But from my own little understanding, I can make you see from my perspective.

For things to work out fine in this world, there must be evil. When we have good solely, then good becomes valueless because it'll start losing meaning. This same logic can be applied to the notion of money. Money is good, ask yourself, why can't the government print a lot of it for the poor to meet the rich standards?
Obviously because it'll become valueless and will cause inflation and consequently economic depression. I've applied this same logic to good and bad too. When there's no bad whatsoever and only peace, peace becomes valueless and even bring greater misfortune worse that bad.

Although to God his overall wisdom. We only know a fraction of what he wants us to know through our intellect.

Since no one can understand God wisdom, why do you worship him? How can you know he do/does meaningless things? I've created a thread on this. I hope you know this is a special pleading fallacy.

Your logic is flawed, I'm trying to point out the paradox of an all-good God.

If God is all-good by nature (absolutism), he can never love evil, he can never allow evil to exist except he's not all-good.

Think yourself as an all-good being by nature, everything about you is absolutely good, will you allow evil to exist?

Ok, since bad and good gives balance to things(which I think it's not necessary for an omnipotent God), is paradise a meaningless place?

We've argued this before, I can't afford to waste my time again.

You can't use a chair that doesn't feel pain, conscious as your analogy, a chair cannot make any objections nor experience pains. How do you expect a chair to question the carpenter when it's not conscious? Do you reason out before proposing this analogy?

I even made it easier that let's assume the chair is sentient (because using a chair that's not conscious is totally absurd).

We all need it more. We'll need to think and ponder more everyday. Atheist refused to think, the major reason why you think there's nothing special in human anatomy. Smh.

Atheists refused to think? Coming from someone that doesn't understand his God, a God he can't prove, why not as well believe in fairies.

Every specie are special in their nature, so I don't know where you get that claim from.

I don't like that a woman's testimony is worth half of that of a man.

tintingz:
Since no one can understand God wisdom, why do you worship him? How can you know he do/does meaningless things? I've created a thread on this. I hope you know this is a special pleading fallacy. Your logic is flawed, I'm trying to point out the paradox of an all-good God.

You're looking for who to bait into to circular arguments, but I'm not taking this.

If God is all-good by nature (absolutism), he can never love evil, he can never allow evil to exist except he's not all-good.

I believe I've given a very concise example to buttress my point on why the need for evil isn't entirely bad as it seems. My expectations was that you tackle the major point ( which I termed my perspectives) one after the other, but as usual ignored it to tackle God. Evil isn't entirely bad. Excessive good will naturally lead to it been valueless and eventually cause more havoc worse that the normal evil. This philosophy of mine is too hard for you to comprehend I guess.

Take note, I didn't say this is the major reason why God allowed evil, but rather from the intellect he's given us, we can deduce that perhaps this is just of the many reasons why it exist. Basically because he's All knowing and All Wise.

Think yourself as an all-good being by nature, everything about you is absolutely good, will you allow evil to exist?

He's not just All good, he's as well ALL WISE. WISDOM dictates something a situation that seem bad, but eventually at the end good. This is very very simple to understand if you're paying attention. And I just demonstrated to you why there's good in bad of life occurrences. What else do you what?

Ok, since bad and good gives balance to things(which I think it's not necessary for an omnipotent God), is paradise a meaningless place?

You take things one after the other. Don't jump to paradise yet. One step at a time.

You can't use a chair that doesn't feel pain, conscious as your analogy, a chair cannot make any objections nor experience pains. How do you expect a chair to question the carpenter when it's not conscious? Do you reason out before proposing this analogy?I even made it easier that let's assume the chair is sentient (because using a chair that's not conscious is totally absurd).

Sigh. I'm not taking this bait. Lol

Atheists refused to think? Coming from someone that doesn't understand his God, a God he can't prove, why not as well believe in fairies.
Every specie are special in their nature, so I don't know where you get that claim from.

Every specie is special. I'm not disputing this..

Did you understand what I meant by "Human anatomy"?

Women are not permitted to pray or fast when they see their periods.

More women go to hell than men. The reasons given for this always make my blood boil over!

Rilwayne001:


You're looking for who to bait into to circular arguments, but I'm not taking this.

Nope, you're the one going in circles with your beliefs not logic. It's like playing tennis without a net.

You believe God is all-good with certainty and when challenged with question why evil exist(now paradox), you claim his knowledge isn't known, how did you know about this?, because a book said so. That's circular reasoning.

In logic there are premises and when there's a paradox you check it out and accept the paradox not hide under faith or belief, that's fallacy.

I'm trying to take you out of these circles and accept there's a problem and not just claim God knowledge cannot be known and then again you certainly know he's somehow all-good.

I believe I've given a very concise example to buttress my point on why the need for evil isn't entirely bad as it seems. My expectations was that you tackle the major point ( which I termed my perspectives) one after the other, but as usual ignored it to tackle God.

I don't get, who are we talking about in this discussion again?

Didn't I address that your carpenter-chair analogy doesn't follow the logic here?

My arguments is not why evil is necessary, my argument is that why does an all-good God allow evil to exist. If evil is necessary with an all-good God then God cannot be all good.

Evil isn't entirely bad. Excessive good will naturally lead to it been valueless and eventually cause more havoc worse that the normal evil. This philosophy of mine is too hard for you to comprehend I guess.

This is subjectivist fallacy. There's nothing like "philosophy of mine" in a philosophical argument, you have to follow the logical premises.

P1. God is all-good by nature
P2. Evil exist
Q. Can God be all-good?

Take note, I didn't say this is the major reason why God allowed evil, but rather from the intellect he's given us, we can deduce that perhaps this is just of the many reasons why it exist. Basically because he's All knowing and All Wise.

This doesn't answer the question rather you're going in circles.

He's not just All good, he's as well ALL WISE. WISDOM dictates something a situation that seem bad, but eventually at the end good. This is very very simple to understand if you're paying attention. And I just demonstrated to you why there's good in bad of life occurrences. What else do you what?

We're talking about the goodness nature of God, he can be all wise, all wisdom that doesn't excuse questioning his all-good nature when he allow evil to exist.

It's like saying this pen is all long, all beautiful and all blue in ink but what happens when it write black ink? Is black ink part of it nature?

You take things one after the other. Don't jump to paradise yet. One step at a time.

Nope, it follows logic. If there's a world where evil Is necessary to balance and make values what then do you say about a world(paradise) where evil doesn't exist?

Sigh. I'm not taking this bait. Lol

It's not a bait.

Every specie is special. I'm not disputing this..

Did you understand what I meant by "Human anatomy"?

Nope, maybe you should explain.

Sheunma:
More women go to hell than men. The reasons given for this always make my blood boil over!

seems you are a lady

Unfortunately we have not seen popular nairaland Muslims on this thread.

I know religion is based on fear, but are they afraid of God to the extent that they can even say out what's in their mind

Xmuslim:
Unfortunately we have not seen popular nairaland Muslims on this thread.

I know religion is based on fear, but are they afraid of God to the extent that they can even say out what's in their mind

so how'd you even break away from such closed minded religion?

Is it not like a sin to speak these things , lol anybody that comments is woke already , or on the path , to the rest this is a blashphemous thread ,

tintingz:

My arguments is not why evil is necessary

Good. Let's take this from here. From your own perspective, why do you think evil is necessary?

my argument is that why does an all-good God allow evil to exist.

This is the third time that I'll be pointing out that the attributes of God isn't limited to being ALL GOOD alone. He's also ALL WISE.

If evil is necessary with an all-good God then God cannot be all good.

Again, God is not just ALL, he's also ALL WISE. Let me give you a typical example:

Imagine yourself when you were 2years. You liked eating sweet and you wouldn't mind replacing it with your 3 square meal per day. Assuming you too one carton of sweet in a whole day, and the next day, you about to start taking another carton. Then your dad collects it, citing that sweet too much of sweet is dangerous for your health. And that you'll not be taking sweet ever again as it will damage your teeth. Cause constipation for you, and that constipation will lead to many other problems that may even eventually lead you to death.

You know as a 2year old you can't understand this implications. Of course you enjoyed the sweet so much you think there's no problem whatsoever as much as you can. This is tantamount to how you view GOOD. And why you keep thinking everything needs to be good.

But of course you dad understand the implications in the long run, so he had to cut it short, because what you're focusing on, which is based on your limited knowledge as a 2 year old boy is the short run. You sure will agree with me that a 2 year old boy can't be smart than his father. And the father will always want the best for him.

Simply, to the boy, with his limited knowledge, he would believe his father not allowing him take sweet is doing evil to him. And that the father is a bad person for not allowing him enjoy what he thought to be good. But of course, you would agree with me that the father his not evil has the boy thought. But that there is WISDOM in father allowing the boy not to have all he wants because its for a greater good, and not the short-run good that the boy seeks. DO YOU AGREE WITH THIS?

I believe I've broken this argument so very well for you by making it even more elementary.

is subjectivist fallacy. There's nothing like "philosophy of mine" in a philosophical argument, you have to follow the logical premises.
P1. God is all-good by nature
P2. Evil exist
Q. Can God be all-good?

You're being biased in the premises. Before we come to the premise, there's need to give meaning and agree to understand each notable words in the premise. The question you're leaving out of this context is that, is WISDOM lacking in the nature of God? If not, then do you understand the wisdom behind why evil exists?

There you go!

Nope, maybe you should explain.

Human anatomy is what constitutes the human body (pica below). Atheist believe there's nothing special in it.

TheSourcerer:
so how'd you even break away from such closed minded religion?

it's a long journey. I thought I was rational cos my belief was based on the divinity of the Qur'an

The beginning was when I realised the lies of Dr zakir naik about the scientific miracles of the Qur'an. I fekt I had been scammed.

I later realised that the mathematical miracle of the Qur'an is flawed because there are many qiraat (dialects). So the mathematical miracle only apply to the popular Qur'an. Also, there are verses that wasn't in today's popular Qur'an.

Immediately I realised Qur'an may not be infallible, things started falling apart . I started seeing more errors in the Qur'an and hadith.

I had thought God was perfect and Qur'an was extremely perfect. I could not continue to follow a book that's not perfect, a book that require human explanation and rẹ-interpretation before it would make sense.

Xmuslim:
it's a long journey. I thought I was rational cos my belief was based on the divinity of the Qur'an

The beginning was when I realised the lies of Dr zakir naik about the scientific miracles of the Qur'an. I fekt I had been scammed.

I later realised that the mathematical miracle of the Qur'an is flawed because there are many qiraat (dialects). So the mathematical miracle only apply to the popular Qur'an. Also, there are verses that wasn't in today's popular Qur'an.

Immediately I realised Qur'an may not be infallible, things started falling apart . I started seeing more errors in the Qur'an and hadith.

I had thought God was perfect and Qur'an was extremely perfect. I could not continue to follow a book that's not perfect, a book that require human explanation and rẹ-interpretation before it would make sense.

well to them it makes absolute sense they need someone to interpret the divines book for him . It seems to me you were deemed from day one to be awoken , theists are usually biologically incapable of not believing or disbelieving in a God , it's hilarious but it's true , they literally cannot see a life without God , Shame but who cares anymore, be happy 4 you mate

TheSourcerer:
well to them it makes absolute sense they need someone to interpret the divines book for him . It seems to me you were deemed from day one to be awoken , theists are usually biologically incapable of not believing or disbelieving in a God , it's hilarious but it's true , they literally cannot see a life without God , Shame but who cares anymore, be happy 4 you mate

I agree that some people are not biologically cabable of living without God or diety. I had pass stages of denial too. I didn't give up easily.

Xmuslim:


I agree that some people are not biologically cabable of living without God or diety. I had pass stages of denial too. I didn't give up easily.

they don't ever give up , at a point you won't bother anymore , I'm in that zone where I will even hail you and buy you Bible/Koran to gtfomf

Rilwayne001:


Good. Let's take this from here. From your own perspective, why do you think evil is necessary?

Nope, I don't think evil is necessary.

This is the third time that I'll be pointing out that the attributes of God isn't limited to being ALL GOOD alone. He's also ALL WISE.

I've said that he can be all wise and all whatever else he's, the argument here is about one of the attributes of God which is "all-good".

I can counter all other attributes of your God, but we're focusing on All-good.

I used a pen as example, a pen can be all long, all beautiful and all blue ink and many other attributes but what happens when the pen writes black ink, is it part of it nature too?

Is evil part of God's nature even when he's all wise?

Again, God is not just ALL, he's also ALL WISE. Let me give you a typical example:

Imagine yourself when you were 2years. You liked eating sweet and you wouldn't mind replacing it with your 3 square meal per day. Assuming you too one carton of sweet in a whole day, and the next day, you about to start taking another carton. Then your dad collects it, citing that sweet too much of sweet is dangerous for your health. And that you'll not be taking sweet ever again as it will damage your teeth. Cause constipation for you, and that constipation will lead to many other problems that may even eventually lead you to death.

You know as a 2year old you can't understand this implications. Of course you enjoyed the sweet so much you think there's no problem whatsoever as much as you can. This is tantamount to how you view GOOD. And why you keep thinking everything needs to be good.

But of course you dad understand the implications in the long run, so he had to cut it short, because what you're focusing on, which is based on your limited knowledge as a 2 year old boy is the short run. You sure will agree with me that a 2 year old boy can't be smart than his father. And the father will always want the best for him.

Simply, to the boy, with his limited knowledge, he would believe his father not allowing him take sweet is doing evil to him. And that the father is a bad person for not allowing him enjoy what he thought to be good. But of course, you would agree with me that the father his not evil has the boy thought. But that there is WISDOM in father allowing the boy not to have all he wants because its for a greater good, and not the short-run good that the boy seeks. DO YOU AGREE WITH THIS?

I believe I've broken this argument so very well for you by making it even more elementary.

If the father is all-sweet giver, if he deprive giving the child sweet then he cannot be all-sweet giver because he has limit to his attributes and sense of not giving sweet.

Or let's do it this way, if the father is all-sweet giver, can he give the child bitters?

And does too much goodness put one in danger?

You're being biased in the premises. Before we come to the premise, there's need to give meaning and agree to understand each notable words in the premise. The question you're leaving out of this context is that, is WISDOM lacking in the nature of God? If not, then do you understand the wisdom behind why evil exists?

Lol, even if wisdom is added to the premise how does it change anything?

Ok.

P1. God is all-good and all-wise
P2. Evil exist
Q. Is God all-good for evil to exist?

So evil exist and NECESSARY for God, how does the all-wise attribute of God further maintain that God is all-good? Where and how does evil come into existence In the present of an all-good God?

Possible logical answer is,

1. God love evil or evil is part of God's nature
2. Evil is independent and God cannot do anything to stop it.

Do you have any counter-argument for this?

Human anatomy is what constitutes the human body (pica below). Atheist believe there's nothing special in it.

I actually know what human anatomy is and I said every specie are special in their nature and you said that's not what you're talking about then you showed me pic of human body part, so what exactly is the argument here?