Opexzy:


Don't you think, it's better to run both instead of phasing them.. It might be problematic to introduce another one later on.

I am of the opinion that government should spell out which area of the economy they want to control while we are still yet to get it right and continue to build on it. I am of the opinion that Nigeria will thrive better in a hybrid of socialism and capitalism in the ratio of 30:70 respectively.
...but again, there is no one way to achieve a goal.

Hmm!
I agree with you.

OruExpress:
A lot of Nigerians have gotten into watching white supremacist US and American video about capitalism and socialism

*) Who would want to be a doctor? Why go through the stress of medical school and specialising in any field of medicine when you can just sit down at home and get equally paid? With this, the medical field will eventually collapse in a socialist state and hospitals would be nothing to write home about. Even if the socialists leaders are transparent enough to fund hospitals, no one would be willing to be a doctor. Why would many want to go through the stress of teaching, going to school, getting a masters or PhD when they can just sit down at home and get free stuffs. With this, the educational system will collapse. In fact no one would want to work except do the basic necessary things to survive.

*) Since people would stop working since they are getting free stuffs, who is going to generate money? What happens when everyone runs out on other people's money? You get poverty and starvation. The state might not even care since they own everything and are well to do so they may ignore the people's need and there's nothing the people can do about that. Even if they wanted to provide, who is willing to work? The lazy government or the lazy people? Even if the government forced people, will they risk a rebellion or will they get what they want given that the people have no skills?

*) As I have explained, the state has absolute power without checks and they are everyone's hope of survival hence the room to abuse human rights and oppression of the people with impunity.

wirinet:


You seem to have US complex. Most major innovations did not come from the US. Most scientific innovations actually started from Europe, ie Electricity, printing press, internal combustion engines, rocket technology, evolution, Germ theory, Astronomy, nuclear etc.

What the US does is steal manpower. They entice the best scientists (and those in other fields ) and then Americanise them and their innovations. Other typical very recent examples are Elon Musk and Hoan Ton-That.

Are those innovations of OUR TIME? I mean things like google, Apple, Facebook, u name it. But even the ones u mentioned ARE THEY SOCIALIST COUNTRIES??

CanadaOrBust:


*) Who would want to be a doctor? Why go through the stress of medical school and specialising in any field of medicine when you can just sit down at home and get equally paid? With this, the medical field will eventually collapse in a socialist state and hospitals would be nothing to write home about. Even if the socialists leaders are transparent enough to fund hospitals, no one would be willing to be a doctor. Why would many want to go through the stress of teaching, going to school, getting a masters or PhD when they can just sit down at home and get free stuffs. With this, the educational system will collapse. In fact no one would want to work except do the basic necessary things to survive.

*) Since people would stop working since they are getting free stuffs, who is going to generate money? What happens when everyone runs out on other people's money? You get poverty and starvation. The state might not even care since they own everything and are well to do so they may ignore the people's need and there's nothing the people can do about that. Even if they wanted to provide, who is willing to work? The lazy government or the lazy people? Even if the government forced people, will they risk a rebellion or will they get what they want given that the people have no skills?

*) As I have explained, the state has absolute power without checks and they are everyone's hope of survival hence the room to abuse human rights and oppression of the people with impunity.

I think you are drunk on US far right propaganda, which tend to demonise socialism. They use scare tactics and doomsday scenerios to discourage any format of socialism. Meanwhile, they themselves depends on government bail outs and support in terms of crisis.

Socialism and capitalism is defined by whether private individuals or governments control factors of production and state resources.
It has nothing to do with the outlandish examples you gave above. Socialism never advocates for everyone sitting at home and collecting salaries. Even communism with is an extreme form of socialism never advocated that. How will there be production if everyone sits at home? Where will the money to be used for running the state come from?

Socialism is mainly about wealth distributions, it attempts to distribute state's resources and wealth in a more equitable manner. Throughout history extreme capitalism had failed. A situation where a very few individuals control most of the state's resources and wealth had always led to anarchy. The poor masses eventually rise up and challenge the few elites, leading to revolutions, wars and upheavals. Europe suffered mass revolts when they practiced feudalism with is an extreme form of capitalism.
The army, police and security forces can only keep the poor masses at bay for a while, one day they will rise up and kill the billionaires and trillionaires if they become hopeless and desperate.

Even communist Russia and communist China still had very good doctors and health services, in fact communist Cuba had some of the best doctors in the world, so I don't understand the examples you gave. Can you please give an example of a country that had ever practiced the kind of socialism you described above?

wirinet:


I think you are drunk on US far right propaganda

Mention one truly socialist country that anybody wants to emigrate to.
Talk real life not words on paper

CanadaOrBust:


Mention one truly socialist country that anybody wants to emigrate to.
Talk real life not words on paper

China prides itself as a socialist republic. You mean to tell me that you are not aware that a lot of our eastern brothers prefer to emigrate to China than the US. The fact that you think the US is heaven does not make it so for everyone else.

Vietnam also calls itself a socialist state.

Here is a more detailed LIST OF SOCIALIST STATES

Now you also mention one truly capitalist country.

What do you call a situation where Americans, including right wing anti socialist Republicans, collect hundreds or even thousands of dollars monthly in unemployment checks, while sitting in theory homes doing nothing.

CanadaOrBust:
Nothing.
Just that people are dying to enter capitalist countries while Social countries have to use coercion to keep their people from leaving!

Lol

Apt and concise

capitalism only benefit few individuals but socialism benefits the masses.

sapientia:


Lol

Apt and concise

Thanks. U can see 4 yourself, no need for theories

wirinet:

China prides itself as a socialist republic. You mean to tell me that you are not aware that a lot of our eastern brothers prefer to emigrate to China than the US. The fact that you think the US is heaven does not make it so for everyone else.

Vietnam also calls itself a socialist state.

Here is a more detailed LIST OF SOCIALIST STATES

Now you also mention one truly capitalist country.

What do you call a situation where Americans, including right wing anti socialist Republicans, collect hundreds or even thousands of dollars monthly in unemployment checks, while sitting in theory homes doing nothing.

China is a totalitarian state. They were quite poor till they introduced capitalism. China has billionaires. That can’t happen in socialism

CanadaOrBust:


All I know is that all the major innovations of our time are from capitalist countries (US especially, the bastion of capitalism). Anything from socialist countries is either copied or stolen from capitalists

lol you will learn that in the US, 80% of scientific research is government funded and government ordered. This is not counting university research which is also government provided. Meaning that almost all innovation in America comes from a socialist philosophy.

This Internet we're using was a government (socialist) project. The list will shock you. but the US gov licenses it's innovations to businesses that will then parade it as it's own. The Tesla from top to bottom is a government creation for example.

CanadaOrBust:


China is a totalitarian state. They were quite poor till they introduced capitalism. China has billionaires. That can’t happen in socialism

The presence of billionaires in a society is a sign that the economy is broken. Hence places like with many billionaires and almost no real middle class. Billionaires are created when someone takes advantage of a glitch in the system (government ties, illegal monopoly, exploitative mineral extraction) with next to no exception. The most corrupt societies in the world have the most billionaires, and this includes China.

Japan, a very health economy with a large productive population, only have 8 known billionaires. Meanwhile, the Nigerian Senate has double that on any given day. Egypt has a greater capacity to create billionaires than Denmark. Where would you rather live?

The OP is obviously obsessed about US this, US that.

From his introduction, the least he could do was to explain what socialism and capitalism was and why he believes socialism was better or Nigeria.

At first they was Feudalism, the king owned the lands. Everyone was working on the Real Estate (king property), they were few Marchant (Capitalist) that buys what the king produce and sells to King also to built is palaces and military wares.

At a time, the people became agitated, they were mass revolutions, the masses wanted to freedom, they wanted the opportunity to own and farm their own land and keep the profit... Full capitalism was born.
In capitalism system, an individual could buy a land, employ labor and invest Money into the system sell to international and local Marchant.

The capitalism system created more private prosperity, more private jobs. Your destiny was in your hand.

But they was a problem, as the capitalist grew rich, the labour they employed became more envious. They felt the Capitalist was greedy, he should share the Money round. The capitalist argument was I was the one that bored the whole risk, even the risk of borrowing and paying you salaries. But the labour wouldn't budge, The labour came with labour union, to forced the capitalist but it did not really work because they were many hoping to replace them.

Then Karl Max came out with socialism, a violent revolution against private company owners. Since the Capitalist won't share their profit round, let's destroy it. Let vote for few individuals (modern politician) that would replace the Capitalist. The would own all the lands, we would work for them like we use to do in the Feudalism system but this time they would share the profit to us. The problem with this system is unlikely Capitalism & Feudalism, Socialism ends up being 100% underproductive because without coercion and a pinch of fear of being sack humans would not willfully produce.

So the Socialist did not see the money the capitalist were making, and in the case of Nigeria were all govt owned Company have folded up, we had a saving grace in crude oil yet the elected few, made sure the paid themselves all of the profit and channel the rest to their under productive civil service.
So as usual, Socialism favors the political class.
Capitalism, the business class
Feudalism, the Royal Class.

The Masses that want to be free would just have to upgrade to either a politician or a business man, nobody would work, make profit and share it to the whole of his staff or at worst the people unless during election where they see it as investment.

I'm American, lol

You're almost right accept in a few things

there's no capitalist society where the business class isn't the political class because, as you see, the end result is an immediate subservience of the political class to the business class

Alot is said about the productivity of capitalism but this needs to be assessed. What is productivity? If productivity is a credit on its own and only needs to aerve its self then capitalism is great.

For example if productivity is the ability to produce food goods, great. If productivity is producing meals it fails.

great example is Nigeria. Capitalism has excelled and finding and extracting oil. Because is capitalism, there are also gas shortages in Nigeria, while gas is flared in Nigeria at the world's highest rate per barrel and the Nigerian coast (Niger Delta) is inhospitable for human life with the world's highest cancer rate as a result.

Capitalism isn't the production of food, its the production of what makes money. So you have a world and society where somethings are abundant and others are scare regardless of their actual value to human life.

Example Nigeria has next to no medical research facilities, but an abundance of for profit churches.

OruExpress:


The presence of billionaires in a society is a sign that the economy is broken. Hence places like with many billionaires and almost no real middle class. Billionaires are created when someone takes advantage of a glitch in the system (government ties, illegal monopoly, exploitative mineral extraction) with next to no exception. The most corrupt societies in the world have the most billionaires, and this includes China.

Japan, a very health economy with a large productive population, only have 8 known billionaires. Meanwhile, the Nigerian Senate has double that on any given day. Egypt has a greater capacity to create billionaires than Denmark. Where would you rather live?

Repeat - there can be no billionaires in socialism

another misconception. Capitalism doesn't serve the business class. It serves capital. If you are in the business class and something happens where you can pay for your healthcare, you won't get it.

everything in capitalism exists to serve the transfer of money. Humans find worth in society by having and giving money but no serve exists to help them as humans.

If you enter a building without paying, you are thrown out. No matter how much an institution says its there for your life if you dont have money its not there for you.

as a result look at our cities in Nigeria. Millionaire estate after millionaire estate, no second thought about improving poor places. Whats the use?

So everyone strives to get money to buy back their humanity and become deserving of food water and shelter. Fundamentally, because not everyone will have money, this is unsustainable and primitive at best.

CanadaOrBust:


Repeat - there can be no billionaires in socialism

Nna, thats not a bad thing. Lets stop calling it money and start calling it yams.

If I had 1 billion yams and someome had 0, and that person dies of hunger, my 1 billion yams is a problem. If we have enough land for 1 person to produce 1 billion yams and a problem with food scarcity in the same town, you have to wonder.

if we had a sensible society it would make no sense for me to hold 1 billion yams.

In Nigeria we see billionaires as a good thing but we scoff at billionaire Obasanjo for stealing and hording collective wealth or Dangote for manipulating the system not knowing that this is exactly how a billionaire is made.

in a capitalist society you can actually die of hunger outside a grocery store. If you want to see captialism look onto Nigeria. Everything good from the US

1. Technology
2. Middle class
3. Fair pay
4. High pay
5. Schools
6. Infrus.
7. Regulated economy
8. Safety net for poor elderly and unemployed

are all products of socialism. Everything in an Apple phone was developed with government research grants.

Nigeria doesn't issue research grants and everything usable in Nigeria is private from top to bottom and we see the results. Once upon a time England was purely capitalist. Read Oliver Twist. Same with the US

OruExpress:
another misconception. Capitalism doesn't serve the business class. It serves capital. If you are in the business class and something happens where you can pay for your healthcare, you won't get it.

everything in capitalism exists to serve the transfer of money. Humans find worth in society by having and giving money but no serve exists to help them as humans.

If you enter a building without paying, you are thrown out. No matter how much an institution says its there for your life if you dont have money its not there for you.

as a result look at our cities in Nigeria. Millionaire estate after millionaire estate, no second thought about improving poor places. Whats the use?

So everyone strives to get money to buy back their humanity and become deserving of food water and shelter. Fundamentally, because not everyone will have money, this is unsustainable and primitive at best.

Let me assume you are base in America, definitely not Nigeria.

The bolded is the law of Nature. You are right, capitalism give everyone the opportunity to strive to make money legally and buy back their humanity and be deserving of food and health care... As a Nigerian, living in Nigeria I would not have it another way. What do expect, that I wait for a Nigerian politician to strive and make political money and provide me with Free food and health care, or real estate mogul after years of entrepreneur journey to come and develop my street because he is our Lord and Savior.

According to foremost human evolutionist, Charles Darwin, It has always been survival for the fittest. You are right, majority think they are not fit to survive, they need free health care, food stamps etc.. and many politician, like Tinubu and Buhari understand this mindset, so they promise them 3 million jobs, 5k monthly for all unemployed ... The masses swallow it full scale and the end it was fake election promises, it is not doable.

Guess what in Nigeria, the only person you can be sure of to give you food and health Care is you. Those that are looking up to govt or others that they feel are better of, and they feel entitled to their money are either dead or have become mentally unstable.

OruExpress:
in a capitalist society you can actually die of hunger outside a grocery store. If you want to see captialism look onto Nigeria. Everything good from the US

1. Technology
2. Middle class
3. Fair pay
4. High pay
5. Schools
6. Infrus.
7. Regulated economy
8. Safety net for poor elderly and unemployed

are all products of socialism. Everything in an Apple phone was developed with government research grants.

Nigeria doesn't issue research grants and everything usable in Nigeria is private from top to bottom and we see the results. Once upon a time England was purely capitalist. Read Oliver Twist. Same with the US

Government Grant doesn't mean socialism. It more of govt investing in capitalism with public fund.

Even most research on vaccine an drugs are funded by govt.

All these grants and SBA LOAN improve capitalism.

Socialism ideology would not even tolerate Apple, Facebook and Google. Do you know how much those guys industry make.

Socialism believe in sharing their profit on Food stamp the less privilege.

The only problem I have with most socialist is, they don't want to innovate and make money... But the feel entitled to the money others had struggle, innovate and made... Screaming "Inequality"

Kazim88:


Let me assume you are base in America, definitely not Nigeria.

The bolded is the law of Nature. You are right, capitalism give everyone the opportunity to strive to make money legally and buy back their humanity and be deserving of food and health care... As a Nigerian, living in Nigeria I would not have it another way. What do expect, that I wait for a Nigerian politician to strive and make political money and provide me with Free food and health care, or real estate mogul after years of entrepreneur journey to come and develop my street because he is our Lord and Savior.

According to foremost human evolutionist, Charles Darwin, It has always been survival for the fittest. You are right, majority think they are not fit to survive, they need free health care, food stamps etc.. and many politician, like Tinubu and Buhari understand this mindset, so they promise them 3 million jobs, 5k monthly for all unemployed ... The masses swallow it full scale and the end it was fake election promises, it is not doable.

Guess what in Nigeria, the only person you can be sure of to give you food and health Care is you. Those that are looking up to govt or others that they feel are better of, and they feel entitled to their money are either dead or have become mentally unstable.

a man's grandfathers land cracks open due to erosion and oil spills out. His grandchild is born with 10 billion to his name as a result.

Tell me, what about that child makes them more fit than you? The #1 source of wealth transfer is inheritance in the world, you can look it up.

"It's not the strongest species that survives, nor the fittest, but the one most responsive to change" - Charles Darwin.


We are in an era where attention = money. Someone that has adapted well is Bobrisky. He's good at courting attention and, according to him, gets his money from rich men sleeping with or desiring him since he started bleaching and appearing more feminine and posh.

So im glad you brought up darwin because when we see the truth of what Darwin presented in action it makes capitalism more questionable.

Because we are in the age of 'butt shots' and cosmic surgery, there are more people that do implants in Nigerian than people who do heart surgery. Worst, getting implants will assure you get the heart surgery faster than most of the citizens in your country because someone will surely make you rich like the case with Bobrisky.


One of the pillars of capitalism is that everyone with money did it through a heroic rise to the top that took their wits and will. That is a poor man's view of wealth. In reality birth is the #1 source of wealth in the world and much of the remaining wealth is made questionably.

Right now we have a mass flood of Nigerians going to Malayisa to sell their kidneys so that they can come back to Nigeria and be treated with human dignity (or as God's which is the nature of capitalism).

the children of those 1 kidney men, what are they more fit to do than anyone else's child and why do they go to the front of the line when food is made available?

infact in capitalism, the harder one works the less they make. The people that return home sweating from a days work are the most likely not to make enough to feed themselves.

We often bring up Nigerias government as an example of how dangerous socialism can be because they are inept. What put them in power? Wasn't it their money? And dedication to money? Do you mean to tell me that Dino Melaye, Rochas Okorocha, and Oshiomole are their society's fittest members? the smartest or most hard working? Or were they the ones most dedicated to money by any means?

Ironically it is raw uncontrolled capitalism that we practice in Nigeria but everyday more and more people call themselves capitalists.

What if money wasn't involved in the election process?
What if the state provides equal funds for both candidates and ran elections in a way that adding money wouldn't make a difference?

Cuba has dictators, but theyre poor (Castro). Do people talk about Castros houses the way we talk about Tinubu's? Didnt capitalism also give us a dictator? Who steals?



what if a politician can leave office and be a 'big man' because he provided the most for people, as opposed to being a 'big man' because they bought land, cars and big houses with state funds?
what if money wasn't in control but was instead controlled by society so that it is used for the betterment of society rather than society existing to serve the spread of money?

OruExpress:



a man's grandfathers land cracks open due to erosion and oil spills out. His grandchild is born with 10 billion to his name as a result.

Tell me, what about that child makes them more fit than you? The #1 source of wealth transfer is inheritance in the world, you can look it up.

"It's not the strongest species that survives, nor the fittest, but the one most responsive to change" - Charles Darwin.


We are in an era where attention = money. Someone that has adapted well is Bobrisky. He's good at courting attention and, according to him, gets his money from rich men sleeping with or desiring him since he started bleaching and appearing more feminine and posh.

So im glad you brought up darwin because when we see the truth of what Darwin presented in action it makes capitalism more questionable.

Because we are in the age of 'butt shots' and cosmic surgery, there are more people that do implants in Nigerian than people who do heart surgery. Worst, getting implants will assure you get the heart surgery faster than most of the citizens in your country because someone will surely make you rich like the case with Bobrisky.


One of the pillars of capitalism is that everyone with money did it through a heroic rise to the top that took their wits and will. That is a poor man's view of wealth. In reality birth is the #1 source of wealth in the world and much of the remaining wealth is made questionably.

Right now we have a mass flood of Nigerians going to Malayisa to sell their kidneys so that they can come back to Nigeria and be treated with human dignity (or as God's which is the nature of capitalism).

the children of those 1 kidney men, what are they more fit to do than anyone else's child and why do they go to the front of the line when food is made available?

We are literally saying the Same thing but our believes are different. I strongly believe as human being, we have to earn our food and health care while socialist believe as human beings they are entitled to food, shelter and health (this sounds ideal and sweet but it is not feasible on the long run).

That your father is Rich has its own disadvantage, you would never learn from life. That you sold your kidney, more like winning a lottery doesn't guarantee you an escape from poverty.

Like I said, every position you find yourself has its own advantage, lastly I believe everyone should strive hard to earn a legitimate living because as a human being you are not entitled to anything even your mother's breast milk.

If you become rich today, you would understand what am saying because only the poor and politician talk socialism. Politician, during campaign, they promise heaven and Earth and the poor masses because they have come to believe the fake promise that because they human being (or according to Martin Luther King Jr words "God's Children) the entiled to heaven and Earth ironically God said " Don't be decieved, Whatsoever a man sow, that he must reap"

Also in book of proverb " No food for the idle man".

I rest my case. Keep believing what you believe in while I keep believing what I believe in.

I wish us success.

Kazim88:


We are literally saying the Same thing but our believes are different. I strongly believe as human being, we have to earn our food and health care while socialist believe as human beings they are entitled to food, shelter and health (this sounds ideal and sweet but it is not feasible on the long run).

That your father is Rich has its own disadvantage, you would never learn from life. That you sold your kidney, more like winning a lottery doesn't guarantee you an escape from poverty.

Like I said, every position you find yourself has its own advantage, lastly I believe everyone should strive hard to earn a legitimate living because as a human being you are not entitled to anything even your mother's breast milk.

If you become rich today, you would understand what am saying because only the poor and politician talk socialism. Politician, during campaign, they promise heaven and Earth and the poor masses because they have come to believe the fake promise that because they human being (or according to Martin Luther King Jr words "God's Children) the entiled to heaven and Earth ironically God said " Don't be decieved, Whatsoever a man sow, that he must reap"

Also in book of proverb " No food for the idle man".

I rest my case. Keep believing what you believe in while I keep believing what I believe in.

I wish us success.

You equate socialism with being idle or receiving free things without considering that all socialist societies not only have work, but are the only societies to achieve 0% unemployment. The average capitalist society - not counting corona- runs a 4-20% unemployment rate. 4 for the western countries (who are highly socialized) and 20% for the global south on average.

Working hard and striving has next to no relationship with actual success. People have become billionaires in Nigeria by latching on to Tinubu or helping Babangida hide money. The average rich person because rich because of birth. People become rich because they bleach or get injections. What did the Kardashians do to become a billionaire unit? Work hard? Between a brick layer and someone who sits in an office and sends 7 emails saying 'I'll get back to you', who do you believe earns more based on what you know about capitalism.

The issue is capitalism is that it's propped up on falsehoods like this, but when said out loud reality doesn't reflect it. There are many ways to be a leader, it shouldn't always be about who has money. There are many ways to eat and be happy, shouldn't have to be about who has money. Human beings are secondary in most human societies and that has real live implications. Go to any village in Nigeria and you'll see schools with no ceiling. Go a little further into the city and you'll see 'estates' where people who live in London buy 2-3 houses and leave them to rot. Only for the city to then add another estate, because what's the point fixing the school roof for people with no money in that type of system?