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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / What Is Faith Really? (5628 Views)
What Is Faith ? : A Dialogue Between Man And God / What Is Faith / How Is Faith Chosen????? (2) (3) (4)
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Re: What Is Faith Really? by jamesid29(m): 6:54am On Jul 24, 2020 |
pauloskie38:Interesting breakdown. Never really taught of James 1 that way. Well done sir |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Tamaratonye5(f): 7:05am On Jul 24, 2020 |
Please work on the manner in which you quote users. It's grating and distasteful having to copy your posts and paste them to your name ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Daejoyoung:What interpretation, pray tell ![]() Daejoyoung:Unlike creationism, evolution is an established scientific fact. Creationism is mere subjective pseudo science fantasy by theists, that hasn't even been asserted as true by the scientific community before the theists start trotting it out as "scientific" unjustifiably Daejoyoung:Logic is inferential. It does not always demonstrate objective truth Daejoyoung:Precise? Look at the variety of species that have lived and died on this planet. All their shapes, sizes, and colors are the result of cumulative random mutations. Whether those mutants survive and prosper as new species depends on equally random events affecting the climate and landscape, as well as the emergence or extinction of other species of plants and animals. How precise was the meteor that wiped out most of the dinosaurs? Why did your ancestors and mine survive the Black Death, smallpox, cholera, and the Spanish flu? Were they designed to survive by god, or just genetically or geographically lucky? Daejoyoung:As far as I can tell, no one here has made the above conclusion. There is no algorithms in evolution. It is binary, you die or survive based on the environment around you. Daejoyoung:And that’s a false dichotomy. The options for emergence and development of life on this planet are not abiogenesis + evolution, or a creator god. And BTW, evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life. It explains the development and diversity of life. The options are abiogenesis (life from non-life through chemical means) + evolution, or something else that we have not yet discovered. The truth or falsity of evolution has nothing to do with the existence of god/s. So that's also a non-sequitur. You do not get to sneak your god in without evidence. If science is wrong, and has been wrong all along, the default position is "We don’t know." Wait a minute ![]() Evolution is not cosmology. 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Tamaratonye5(f): 7:06am On Jul 24, 2020 |
Let me see if I got this right DrLiveLogic:Of course it would be fitting for you to abandon apologetics and seek a career in rapping, seeing as you're a prolific rabble rouser and an intellectually bankrupt debater all at the same time ![]() DrLiveLogic:Be a dear and demonstrate some objective evidence for your claim that "DNA contains intelligence" please? The only bluff, lies and bluster seem to be coming from you as far as I can see. DrLiveLogic:Not only are you stupid but you will stay that way because you tell dreadful lies ![]() DrLiveLogic:[1] Crystals, ocean waves, sand dunes, shells, (Have you heard of the golden ratio? ) all of art and all of nature… oops! ![]() ![]() [2] Why do you disingenuously keep trying to reverse the burden of proof? If you can demonstrate any objective evidence for any creation in nature then do so plainly, and desist from these fallacious argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacies. DrLiveLogic:The so called "code" in DNA is a chemical process. Not an intelligent acting agent, Imagine what it could create if it were intelligent. We would all have abilities like Savants. We would all look like super models. If the code was intelligent, idiocy would be erased from the world and you might never have been born ![]() DrLiveLogic:That’s true, and I’ll continue to be unaware of this "evidence" you keep alluding to, but never demonstrate. ![]() DrLiveLogic: TRANSLATION: I get sexually aroused arguing Tamaraton Tantrum. i’m gonna go have a yank. But I will be back DrLiveLogic: TRANSLATION: I am free of all human thought because I have God. As soon as my meds wear off, I will talk with him again. He is waiting for me in my room. He watches me when I touch myself.Well, DrLiveLogic, you're free indeed from all cogent and rational thought anyway, your disjointed rants are evidence enough of that. DrLiveLogic:Except it is not a popularly held belief, species evolution is a demobstrable scientific fact based on overwhelming objective evidence. So no, it wasn’t a bandwagon fallacy at all. Especially since as I pointed out Francis Collins is a born again christian, and is on record as stating that he wishes it (species evolution) were not an objective fact, but the evidence from DNA shows it is. You dismiss the fallacies you use with naught but hand waving, then make up false accusation of fallacies in the posts of others. Your posts reveal the personality of a troll with mental instability and intellectual vacuity. What you have failed to do is offer a shred of objective evidence for any deity or anything supernatural. DrLiveLogic: TRANSLATION: I still think that if I can trash Evolution, my God will be the default position. I am not stupid, I just don’t read posts that disagree with my position. If evolution is wrong, my god wins. Bleep the Catholics and their belief in evolution. They aren’t real Christians anyway.It’s all contained in the theory of evolution, one person couldn’t hope to know it all in a lifetime of study, but unlike superstious religious faith based beliefs, it has been validated by the scientific method, including peer reviewed work and a global scientific consensus based on all the objective evidence, even the largest most powerful church on earth has long ago stopped denying the fact of species evolution If you want to cherry pick which scientific facts to accept, then that’s your business, but such obvious bias as rejecting only these facts that contradict your superstion’s archaic creation myths is too obvious to ignore. However, and as I have pointed out, even were evolution not a scientific fact, creationism would remain an unevidenced archaic superstitious myth. It's good you clocked me from miles away: I'm no researcher. I'm an atheist. Someone who do not believe in your groundless silly god ideas. You want to argue biology, go to the Science/Technology section. Or a biology forum outside Nairaland. So what do we have at the end of the day? Another dimwit jester who fails to demonstrate OBJECTIVE evidence for his deity of choice ![]() So far you’ve offered only ad hominems (in spades), subjective claims, and logical fallacies. The rest of your rant is just bile and dogma, failing to address any point I actually made. Cheers Tamaraton Tantrum 2 Likes |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Tamaratonye5(f): 7:08am On Jul 24, 2020 |
Dtruthspeaker: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() As per the highlighted - yes you do, and that is the standard expected by the one who is not convinced. You just don't like it when atheists request more than just "gotta have faith" because, let me tell you: deep down inside, you know there is zero evidence of a god. But in the interests of fair play, if we’re talking about truth-values of assertions, and their conversion into true or false postulates, there are two currently known reliable method applicable to said assertons, viz: [1] Error free derivation in a relevant formal system (see, for example, various subsets of pure mathematics); [2] Correspondence with observational data (see, for example, the physical sciences). If you want to bring a different methodology into the arena, you have to establish that said methodology is reliable first, before demanding that we accept it. Failure to do so will simply result in much ridicule aimed at your direction. It also became problematic when you already exposed your agenda to an embarrassing extent below: Is it by Natural Truths like that popular Mountain we call Mount Everest in the place we call Asia Truth? As someone who paid attention in chemistry class, I resent your implication that experiments in test tubes fail to meet rigorous standards in this matter. Summary: You are just afraid of the failure of your assertions to meet the relevant criteria, so you’re seeking in advance to skew the operation of the arena of discourse by handing special privileges to your assertions. 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Dtruthspeaker: 7:30am On Jul 24, 2020 |
Tamaratonye5: See, yadayadaya, chitty chitty chat chat ![]() You do not want to Stand by Anything and fall with it. ![]() I understand it is the Law that a man should not be compelled to convict himself, in this case, herself ![]() So, this matter is hereby struck out for lack of cause of action and want of diligent prosecution! ![]() Registrar, please call the next case! |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by MuttleyLaff: 7:35am On Jul 24, 2020 |
pauloskie38: jamesid29: MuttleyLaff: MuttleyLaff: MuttleyLaff:James 1:7-8 is talking of qualification for consideration or nomination to be in the "Hall of faith" or "Faith Hall of fame" 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Dtruthspeaker: 7:55am On Jul 24, 2020 |
Tamaratonye5: I noticed you come out here in the morning, so I am going to raise a Thread just For You, and I'll battle you there. i give you the option of laying the Rules of Engagement. (Which you will refuse as is your practice) Should you reverse the choice of the Rules of Engagement to me as you usually do, I thus set and Choose, All the Rules of Natural Truth, the Evidence Act, Natural Law, The Objective Ordinary Reasonable Man and Prohibition of All Fallacies of any kind, And Directly Answering Reasonable Questions put forward to you in a Positive way that Resolves the Question eg what is your name? Answer= my name is Tamaratonye (which you hate doing). Ehen, no after-thoughts and You Must stay online to proceed with the argument expenditiously. Put forth your own Rules of Engagement that I may meet you therein. (Even this one, argument go still enter am ![]() Thank God tomorrow na weekend so she no go get reason to dey talk only once a day like malaria medicine. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by MuttleyLaff: 8:31am On Jul 24, 2020 |
Dtruthspeaker:Due to operating in a different time zone. When its 7:55am where you are, it is 3:55am, where Tamaratonye5 is |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Dtruthspeaker: 9:24am On Jul 24, 2020 |
MuttleyLaff: Oh, thanks. That explains many many things and why she is not capable of holding a normal and proper debate with the usual binds and expected response time, so that it could be received as her truest thoughts on the subject and not afterthought. Which I think many of her responses here have been Afterthoughts or Copy and Paste while hiding under the cover of Foreign Territory. If she can not attend to issues promptly, then all she says here are not true and cannot be believed for no reasonable person desires to act on a Lie eg telling people that you can now travel outside the shores of Nigeria like you are going to your village, no passports or visas, just point yourself to any country of choice and move. And do you see how she fears Natural Truths but loves Test Tubes and Lab Conjectures and Speculations? As if we live inside their laboratory where they are gods, changing the climates of their laboratory world and doing all that they like there. Yet she thinks it good thinking that after all their exertion of godship in their laboratories, they are now gods of the sun and the sun would obey their Instruction or the for the tap water in their labs, they can control the seas and floods. And then they get mad when we call them foolish. Coupled with the laughable that an Explosion Created Things ![]() Thank God she is a Chemistry and Science student, therefore scientifically, can an Explosion Ever ever Create any thing? Is it not the job of an Explosion to Destroy or Scatter or Disintegrate? I am a science student too. ![]() ![]() |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Daejoyoung: 9:48am On Jul 24, 2020 |
Tamaratonye5:Well Tamaratonye5, every ideology professes an opinion or bias, and atheism is not exempt. Atheism is not an ideology on the fence, rather it questions the evidence for the existence of a God or Gods. When theists present evidence of God as creator, the atheist then says no, there is no creator, we just evolved randomly to become what we are. By so doing, you are interpreting evolution and projecting your anti-theistic bias on the scientific report, no less guilty than the theist in that regard. Evolution only explains the process, it doesn't necessarily tell us the why, nor does the science of evolution in itself uphold or debunk the God as creator claim specifically. The non creationist theist says God was behind evolution, and the atheist says there was no God. These are all just opinions, and has nothing to do with science. There are so many atheists who tout evolution, but are damn ignorant of the evolution they yap about all day long. They think the atheists are the heroes of science and science is atheistic dogma. We are discussing your ideology here, and I am tired of correcting atheists on this one misunderstanding all the time, your atheistic ideology or interpretation of science does not equate to science, this goes for the theists as well. So when explaining these things, let us discuss our ideologies specifically. 1 Like |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by MuttleyLaff: 6:05pm On Jul 24, 2020 |
Tamaratonye5:DrLiveLogic is 1000% correct, you have no form of an image of God in or about you Of course, because of your theology being that poor, you dont understand how likeness and image of God comes about. The attempt DrLiveLogic tried shedding light on how the image of God comes about, just flew swoosh over your head, as like two Canadian MiG jet fighter aircrafts doing flypasts Tamaratonye5:[img]https://s3/images/ObamaMuttley.gif[/img] Maybe you did learn some what? |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Ngo24(f): 6:33pm On Jul 24, 2020 |
Faith is "law of attraction" visualize what you want, ask the higher power(God,Universe etc) to make it come through, believe you have what you asked for, thank the universe for receiving what you ask for with 0 doubt and see it come through! Simple |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Tamaratonye5(f): 11:16pm On Jul 24, 2020 |
MuttleyLaff:That’s exactly the point, the bible does the same, yet you claim one book validates the fantasies in it, and the other does not. MuttleyLaff:You can delude yourself if you wish with biblical creation myths, but I will continue to accept only what is properly evidenced, and it is a scientific fact that humans evolved. Your baseless attacks on evolution are your problem, but if you think you can tell me what to think then you’re sadly mistaken. If the earth is just a few thousand years old, then just how exactly can we see the light from stars that are billions of light years away? Did your deity create the light en route to us ffs? MuttleyLaff:More of your hand waving rhetoric, I shan’t even feign surprise you ignored the context because you know I did correctly cite your use of it. Theists and religious apologists use this fallacy all the time, to try and reverse the burden of proof. As you have done again in that post, and pointed out by me below: MuttleyLaff:That’s another argumentum ad ingorantiam fallacy, because I don’t know how life originated anymore than you do, the difference is that unlike you I don’t use appeal to ignorance fallacies to try to insert creation myths from bronze age superstitions into things I can’t explain. MuttleyLaff:Again you are deliberately missing the point, that your claim an infallible deity created everything, when it is so obviously flawed is absurd. And of course species evolution is an objective scientific fact, no matter how many creationists won’t accept it. MuttleyLaff:We can tell no such thing, there isn’t a shred of objective evidence for the claim, as your posts have amply illustrated. Unlike species evolution of course, which is an objective scientific fact, no matter how many times you deny it. MuttleyLaff:Right. You got the point. Our society (not all and not in all eras) may identify or use those qualities associated with red. Red itself is demonstrable. God is not. YOU are interpreting or representing, whatever, something that hasn’t been demonstrated to even exist. REPRESENTATION the action of speaking or acting on behalf of someone or the state of being so represented. ARE you representing "red"? INTERPRETATION a stylistic representation of a creative work or dramatic role. OR are YOU attributing or personifying it? MuttleyLaff:So what? Just because you’re prepared to blindly and unquestioningly accept superstitious fantasies doesn’t mean I have to. MuttleyLaff:How does that remotely address my point? You disbelieve in every deity humans have ever created because there is no objective evidence for them, but make a biased exception for the one you choose to believe is real, but there is no more evidence for yours than all the rest, and blindly quoting the bible at me won’t change that fact. As I already explained, no book can validate its own claims, or else Harry Potter would validate wizards ad wizardry. MuttleyLaff:And there is no more objective evidence for that claim, than there is for Zeus, Apollo or Vishnu. You can’t simply assert something into existence. 3 Likes |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Tamaratonye5(f): 11:16pm On Jul 24, 2020 |
Daejoyoung:Atheism isn’t an ideology. Daejoyoung:Atheism isn’t an ideology at all, and I have seen no objective evidence for any deity to question, only subjective anecdotal claims, and irrational polemic. Daejoyoung:Rubbish i'm sorry, firstly atheism is not a denial there is a deity, secondly species evolution is a scientific fact, and atheism has nothing to do with that, I am an atheist because no theist can demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity. Daejoyoung:Sorry but that is complete nonsense. Daejoyoung:It doesn’t debunk unicorns either, or mermaids, what’s your point? Daejoyoung:Nope, wrong again, atheism is the lack or absence of belief in a deity, nothing more. I am an atheist and I have never made that claim, I simply don’t believe a deity exists as no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for their god claim. Daejoyoung:They are straw man fallacies you’ve created. Evolution is a scientific fact, and I no more need to have a complete understand of the entire theory than I do of Newton’s theories of gravity to know they are facts. There is no atheist dogma, you;re talking bollocks sorry. This is well worn theist propaganda. Daejoyoung:There is no atheist ideology, and you are correcting nothing, just displaying your ignorance of basic facts and even word definitions. And your theist ideology consists of a shallow appeal to imagined evidence of design in nature, and a simplistic equation that states we don’t know, therefore god. Everything you think you know about god is just the product of childhood indoctrination based on ancient myths distorted through telling and retelling across millennia. There is no atheist interpretation of science. Science stands on its own merits. It is the sole source of our knowledge of the world. It is the sole provider of advances that have dramatically improved the human condition. Daejoyoung:Atheism is not an ideology. Atheism Ideology ATHEISM IS NOT AN IDEOLOGY. 3 Likes |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Tamaratonye5(f): 11:16pm On Jul 24, 2020 |
jamesid29:Pretty sure I did not, I merely pointed out there isn’t a shred of objective evidence for any creation myth. Any other assertion is of your own construct I'm afraid. jamesid29:That's why logic is necessary, it is a method of reasoning that adheres to strict principles of validation, in order to filter out bias and of course superstitions like religions. Most Christians, like the ones here, don't have a developed epistemology or dont even know zilch about their epistemology, so they come here thinking they know it all but don't realize how bad they actually embarrass themselves. How many people on this thread care for the truth? If you are not willing to change if you discover truth is different than what you think it currently is, then you don't care for the truth. jamesid29:No that’s nonsense again, there are known logical fallacies, these are called common logical fallacies if they occur in informal logic. Theists use these type of fallacies all the time, as you have done above using straw man fallacies about atheism. There is no animosity here, I'm just here to learn. However I can't deny that it's been a shitfest thus far here. So far it's the same old same old. People assigning imaginary arguments to me, or committing strawmen by putting labels on me such as my being an evolutionist. In the midst of all the games the countless dishonest apologists present on this thread are hell bent on playing, absolutely zero, zilch, nada has been offered in terms of substance. None of them, not one, has succeeded in demonstrating objective evidence for any deity. 3 Likes |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Tamaratonye5(f): 11:18pm On Jul 24, 2020 |
Dtruthspeaker:You're getting yourself unnecessarily worked up over nothing ![]() The idea you can dictate your made up bullshit rules of discourse in a public forum is pretty hilarious though, besides you already implied the discussion was over, before you came back to throw your pointless gauntlet So, this matter is hereby struck out for lack of cause of action and want of diligent prosecution! grinSo why should I wish to engage someone in any discourse, that is that pathetically dishonest? I have nothing to prove to you. Tell you what I will give you another chance to show some shred of integrity. What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity? If you can’t demonstrate any, then have the integrity to say so, and then offer what you consider to be your most compelling reason for believing in any extant deity. Otherwise you simply cannot be taken seriously if all you do is make vapid dishonest attacks on atheism and atheists. If you've carefully observed my posting patterns, you'll see I'm not a regular here. I'm mostly a passive observer reading through threads. I'm much more active in other online fora outside the Nairaland community. I'm already worn out for having to come on here, everyday, since the beginning of this week to repeat myself like a broken record, and you expect me to waste my precious time engaging in your games of mendacity, villainy and fraud (prohibition of logical fallacies? LOL- because you know that's the only way your lies will ever have any semblance of validity). I have better things to do with my time. You and the rest of your Christian goons have exposed yourselves as shallow villains, failing to read my posts, picking on irrelevant issues, trying to reverse the burden of proof, taking things out of context, obfuscating and/or hand waving obvious facts, gaslighting, fabricating claims I never made and expecting me to prove them. I'm about almost done with this silly game. You people have no guts, no honour, no glory, no decorum. Just a band of desperate idiots thinking sly dishonesty can cover the light of the facts. This is the last chance to prove yourselves, or I'm abandoning this farce 3 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by jamesid29(m): 3:06am On Jul 25, 2020 |
Tamaratonye5:Below is your exact statement I quoted, exactly the way I quoted it and my exact question. The whole premise was for you to clarify your statement, which could have easily been answered with a, "this was what I was tracking when I made that statement"...but your reply was on a whole different tangent. I'm not sure why you trying to pitch your tent on something that is documented. Tamaratonye5: james29:You can check back and read your reply and guage if it was a response to my question or a response to a question you made up. https://www.nairaland.com/5997053/what-faith-really/2#91968803 It seems you missed the point I was making. Basically I pointing out the realities of human nature from behavioural science but again you seem to have sliced and misconstrued it for an avenue for a "stick it to the Christain" reply. I pretty sure you can't point out any of my statement that is a straw man fallacy about atheism. You just made that up or assumed it. You're kinda making the point on my previous post though. You are not replying to what I wrote, rather you are replying to what you would have liked me to write. Have you noticed that you constantly slice my statements up(sometimes pulling out statements in the middle of a sentence) so it can better fit in to your preconceived notion of "he's a Christain so this is what I want him to mean". And I'm pretty sure, you've also noticed that you constantly sidestep main issues but latch onto things that you a feel gives you an excuse to rail against how stupid every one is asides you, even though that has never been the premise of our conversation. It's never been a subject of our conversation but Okay You may want to give a comeback of your own and probably read a whole different meaning to my statements, that's fine... but from my own end, I'll leave it at this. |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Tamaratonye5(f): 6:53am On Jul 25, 2020 |
jamesid29:And you have just confirmed what I've been saying. A lot of you people here are guilty of SPLITTING Splitting (also called black-and-white thinking or all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together the dichotomy of both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism.[1] The individual tends to think in extremes (i.e., an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad with no middle ground).There’s a considerable difference between "I don’t believe in any creation myths” /// “I don’t believe the universe was created" AND "The Universe was not created" The latter seems like a positive claim to me, coming from a position of certainty, whilst the former comes from a position of uncertainty ie "I don’t know, so I withhold belief" jamesid29:I'm getting fed up of repeating myself, so I'll just post this for you to read again: That's why logic is necessary, it is a method of reasoning that adheres to strict principles of validation, in order to filter out bias and of course superstitions like religions.I don't understand why you people fail to read my posts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ jamesid29:You committed a strawman fallacy, albeit unintentionally, when you misconstrued my statement above. The point I was making is this: I understand humans are flawed, but we should first be honest enough to understand our flaws, and apply trusted principles to ensure that our subjective bias/es should not interfere with the objective reality. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by DrLiveLogic(m): 2:11pm On Jul 25, 2020 |
LMAO. Weren't we having a pleasant convo? even invited you for a tango, and you....well, just threw yet another wild tantrum wit all cussing lingo. Great weapon against any unsure of their substance. When you have a potent argument, you needn't go ad hominem, is that section #1 you've broken? Cussing's like, "I'm reaching my limits, back off, before you notice". So can we exchange like mature minds? Tamaratonye5: So far you’ve offered only ad hominems (in spades), subjective claims, and logical fallaciesYet to present an argument, not here, made that clear. Here to discuss faith so you can't point to an ad hominem. Tamaratonye5: I will talk with him again. He is waiting for me in my roomCan't be confined in a room but will be in the incorporeal part of your own self, if you contact the faith substrate. Tamaratonye5: "code" in DNA is a chemical process. Not an intelligent acting agent, Imagine what it could create if it were intelligent. We would all have abilities like Savants. We would all look like super modelsThe old fallacy, "intelligence is perfection", which we contravene in our own IDs. You consider yourself intelligent, yet never made a perfect thing. Learn girl, intelligence is simply defined pattern towards purpose, god is perfection. Wanna look like a supermodel? Intelligence has brought gyms. Use both. Genes maintain pattern in reproduction and sustenance not randomly altering self, each bearing its species, never crossing, and each species with its set of conjugate features. That's organisation, administration... one word, intelligence. Tamaratonye5: Crystals, ocean waves, sand dunes, shells, (Have you heard of the golden ratio? ) all of art and all of nature… oops!Sorry! You were trying to be rhetorical. He he he … I thought you were actually asking a question. Silly me!More huff-puff, I almost smh off. These, as most findings of evolutionists, points rather to ID. Does this still make an argument if same intelligence that coded the genes, coded the syntax of these? Or are these events not caused under same defined conditions, whatever the variables, everytime they occur? Like A+B+C always=D syntax. You only point to coordination associated with intelligence. Now include the hows of water cycle, nutrient cycle, gaseous cycles, all we need to sustain life, coded into and self-sustained in nature, order in galactic systems....ID!! If you'd deny ID in nature, it's fine. Every intelligent person, even you, can easily guess why any would relish in denial. Tamaratonye5: I still think that if I can trash Evolution, my God will be the default position.Not really. Just think it's courtesy to remind you, you really aren't standing on any logical ground but in denial. Tamaratonye5: it has been validated by the scientific method,Evolutionist's dreamland. Already challenged you to substantiate evidences, so they're debunked again. Tamaratonye5: species evolution is a demonstrable scientific fact based on overwhelming objective evidenceRecycled debunked evo myths. Subspeciation under highly manipulated laboratory conditions, better called adaptation can never prove trans-speciation, not to mention under uncontrolled conditions. Tamaratonye5: including peer reviewed work and a global scientific consensus based on all the objective evidence, even the largest most powerful church on earth has long ago stopped denying the fact of species evolutionDear logic criminal, Tantrum, hereby sentenced to.... for contravention of section #9 and #10 of her logic laws. Plus, guess what? this is how many religious doctrines became too and well, so much for that. Tamaratonye5: Especially since as I pointed out Francis Collins is a born again christian, and is on record as stating that he wishes it (species evolution) were not an objective fact, but the evidence from DNA shows it is.ROFLMAO, good one, if you hoped the christian part would make a stronger case. So much for your 'scientific method'. Logic, Tantrum, is self-subsistent. All he's got here is the old ignoratio elenchi, the interpolation into subspeciation. Tamaratonye5: [2] Why do you disingenuously keep trying to reverse the burden of proof? If you can demonstrate any objective evidence for any creation in nature then do so plainly, and desist from these fallacious argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacies. Tamaratonye5: However, and as I have pointed out, even were evolution not a scientific fact, Tamaratonye5: ..in the theory of evolutionFine. Taken you admit to having no objective evidence for the evo rhetoric. Long as you don't bring it up till ready to subject it to thorough scrutiny, we're good. My point of inviting you my thread was to show all so called "objective evidence" of current evo rhetoric is subjective and simply hopeful leaps, leaving the atheist only an option of agnosticism of origins with admission to ID. If you already put evolution in its place, we move. As I said, the burden to find truth lies on you solely. We're all fallible, so creator coded truth into your innate existence so another's defect wouldn't subvert your truth quest. So scrap that "if none's able to convince me, I'm justified with my belief", smelt miles away. It's only courtesy we engage each other and a fortune if you're convinced. Proof of faith, as said before, lies not in logic. If you'd force all down that route, then you weren't willing to give faith it's place. Logic confirmed existence beyond its domain, across the Singularity, hence witnessing against who would limit existence to it. Again, I have pointed out, faculties of your existence not logically but empirically realised. There, is the track of faith's quest, but you keep ignoring. Tamaratonye5: and faith is utterly useless in validating claims or beliefs, as there is literally nothing one could not believe using faith. I keep asking, if you believe something without any objective evidence, or based on faith alone in other words, then what is your criteria for disbelieving anything?None should believe anything without objective evidence or tangibility, else creator needn't give us senses. Come this far, still learnt nothing bout faith but holding your misconception. Faith's not believing blindly nor is creator requiring that anyone believe anything but existence. Paul didn't try to believe any bout Jesus but simply contacted faith which, for the umpteenth time, is a substrate, the point in Hebrews, you miss. Like matter, to be contacted. Not trying to prove any nor proven by any, only a germ, growing itself into matter superimposing it's quality. We don't prove rocks, water or any matter logically. We make contact to attest to their reality. The question on faith, if rightly grasped, should only be how to contact and the only case against creator is if he requires it without making it contactable. My technique was gonna be, after debunking all "objective evidence" for evo theory on my thread and showing the hypocritical denial in standing on it, going on to show logic, and so science, is absolute only in its domain, the material universe, which is but a subset of the whole of existence, then begin awaken you to other domains of existence. But you seem to care less for real answers on faith than girlie chit-chat and mudslinging tirades. We would gain nothing that way. At the rate were going, I may just have to drop some and prolly bow out. Valid questions on existence and beyond logic, to be answered, in the quest of faith: 1. Does the Singularity not point to an existence beyond the current coordinate system and material plane? 2. Does it not show the limitation of current logic to account for existence beyond? 3. Isn't the material plane considered real firstly because we are in some way conscious of it ever before logic? ....continued below... |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by DrLiveLogic(m): 2:13pm On Jul 25, 2020 |
Tamaratonye5:Valid questions on existence and beyond logic, to be answered, in the quest of faith: 1. Does the Singularity not point to an existence beyond the current coordinate system and material plane? 2. Does it not show the limitation of current logic to account for existence beyond? 3. Isn't the material plane considered real firstly because we are in some way conscious of it ever before logic? 4. Is logic then the absolute determinant of existence or derived from a precedent viz. consciousness? 5. Are there other modes of consciousness asides our physical senses? 6. Is this material plane all we're conscious of? 7. If ID is evidenced in human intelligence, the body's design and all lower intelligence littered across the universe, then as per the human-robot analogy, could there be a higher intelligence across the singularity? 8. If such higher intelligence is, and would relate with us, is it possible that in our design is ability to transcend this plane? 9. If so, could there be weaved into us, faculties beyond our physical body? 10. Are we conscious of any such faculties in us even if not logically determined? Are we conscious of: i. a moral centre/conscience, poking us from time to time, guiding us also? ii. an emotional centre for fear, anger, hate, anguish, worry etc., causal of the chemicals our bodies release with these? iii. a metaphysical sense for dreams and visions, ESP? iv. an imaginative centre? v. a centre of desire for satisfaction and pleasure, which is the seat of boredom? vi. A cognitive centre, affecting choice, causal to the brain's directing the body towards imagined action. If you really wanna go deep on faith, try seriously considering these questions. If it ends here, we should at least end on a cordial note. You can certainly deem my disposition towards you like Attila's though I would poke you with truth only, uncomfortable as it might be for you. If you'd still like a meaningful discussion on faith, consider my questions, then we can proceed else I hope you find truth nonetheless. |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Tamaratonye5(f): 11:11am On Jul 26, 2020 |
DrLiveLogic:You don’t know what fallacy means clearly. But then you don’t know what a scientific theory is either, so pretty typical for a creationist. I long ago stopped being surprised at how ignorant religion keeps many of its adherents. DrLiveLogic:No one asserted that we were intelligent. You asserted DNA was intelligent. If it was, wouldn’t it intelligently design more intelligently? It is a chemical process and nothing more. DrLiveLogic:You’re an arrogant clown, especially considering your posts contain some of the most ignorant idiotic drivel I've seen on this particular website. Asserting your god is perfect does not make it so. You don’t get to assert a god into existence. Provide evidence or go away. What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity? DrLiveLogic:Since you’re the one denying a global scientific consensus based on over 160 years of the most intense scientific scrutiny, and all to justify an absurd unevidenced belief in a deity from a bronze age superstition. The hilarity of a creatard accusing anyone of denial is palpable. You haven’t got a clue of what logical ground any atheist is standing on. Your inane responses and idiotic assertions are evidence of this. DrLiveLogic:OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE FOR EVOLUTION As I already said the talkorigins website has a massive database of scientific evidence for evolution. It also has a massive database of creationist propaganda that science has debunked, most of them you have used here. FYI, I'm not an atheist because I believe in evolution. That's your own Dreamland. I'm an atheist because of the lack of evidence for god/s What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity? DrLiveLogic:The fossil evidence alone establishes this DrLiveLogic:Do you care to translate that gibberish into a coherent sentence, Hmmm? DrLiveLogic:So we can add English to the expanding list of things you don’t understand.Tamaratonye5: However, and as I have pointed out, even were evolution not a scientific fact,Fine. Taken you admit to having no objective evidence for the evo rhetoric. DrLiveLogic:Your point is to deny an accepted scientific fact that contradicts the risible creation myth form your bronze age superstition, and of course the reason is because you can’t offer any objective evidence for your deity, or any creationist propaganda. Here’s a clue for you, because I know how slow creatards are… SCIENTIFIC FACTS ARE ESTABLISHED BY OVERWHELMING SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, THEY CAN ONLY BE FALSIFIED BY THE SAME. WHEN A CREATARD GETS A NOBEL PRIZE FOR FALSIFYING EVOLUTION I WILL ACCEPT IT, BUT CREATIONISM WILL REMAIN AN UNEVIDENCED SUPERSTITIOUS MYTH. DrLiveLogic:Rubbish, you don’t half talk drivel. The best method we have for validating claims is the scientific method, which creatards risibly think they can cherry pick when it contradicts their superstitious myths. DrLiveLogic:And as I said there is literally nothing you cannot believe using faith. So yes of course faith based beliefs are irrational by definition. The efficacy of logic is manifest, as is the uselessness of faith. As I keep asking what is your criteria for disbelief if you are prepared to believe using faith? DrLiveLogic:What singularity? You don’t have even the most basic grasp of logic, that is abundantly clear. DrLiveLogic:Yet here you are, arguing for your intangible deity. So please demonstrate some objective evidence for your deity. I keep asking, but you just keep posting the same subjective rhetoric and logical fallacies. DrLiveLogic:Even your title seems confused. If something is valid, isnt it meant to be logical? How are questions valid if they are beyond logic, and therefore by definition irrational, that’s such an obviously errant title I want to laugh out loud. Why on earth would any rational person want to pursue a quest for faith as well, faith is utterly useless for validating claims, as there is literally nothing you could not believe using faith, as I have already explained. DrLiveLogic:Again, what singularity? DrLiveLogic:Argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, textbook. DrLiveLogic:I have no idea what that means sorry, is it from dungeons and dragons? DrLiveLogic:I've probably stated this a thousand times here already, but: logic is a method of reasoning that adheres to strict principles of validation, in order to remove bias and flawed reasoning. DrLiveLogic:I don't know. If you do, please demonstrate some objective evidence for this. Also why have you phrased this as a question? DrLiveLogic:Again what are you taking about, is this a reference to dungeons and dragons only I have never played it? DrLiveLogic:Can you demonstrate any objective evidence that it is? Or has that just become your usual incoherent fallacious rhetoric? --------------------------------- Cheers Tamaraton Trinus Tantrum 2 Likes |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by DrLiveLogic(m): 2:25am On Jul 27, 2020 |
Tamaratonye5:My bad. I asserted you were intelligent. If you have no intelligence, then you're right, DNA has none. Fits perfectly with your origins theory of intelligence stemming from non-intelligence, that we design AI. DNA that writes code for the compiler that encodes itself, what AI seeks to achieve with deep learning, has no intelligence in Tantrum's world. I'd like to meet you in your world. Smh. Since you’re the one denying a global scientific consensus based on over 160 years of the most intense scientific scrutinyDon't you wish this would make a theory irrevocable, Mrs scientific method? Most intense what ![]() As I already said the talkorigins TO website has a massive database of scientific evidence for evolution. It also has a massive database of creationist propaganda that science has debunked, most of them you have used here.Cc: Daejoyoung Smh. Laughable when someone suggests TO for critical study on evolution, and shows you're neither a core scientist nor ready for in-depth analysis but only gathering unfiltered superficial info. You probably occupy yourself with other things leaving you little time for such although that wouldn't be an excuse for a matter as important as your soul's security. For your sake, here's the fastest of the critiques on TO I found not that I propose creationism for that. Refute TO TO is pure propaganda and uses counters against flimsy and outrageous creationist arguments to validate its argument, mere strawmanning, without presenting important info on the uncertainties and limitations of the evo theory but many half-truths instead. Prolly why it seems obsolete. Again there's nothing like overwhelming evidence/proof for evo rhetoric but only many findings with subjective interpretations. Such misconception stems from a lack of training in the scientific method. Again, evolutionists consistently shift the goalpost by alternating the definition of evolution between mere adaptation and trans-speciation, an interpolation from prejudice, to make findings like the fossil record support their rhetoric, as is not the case. You really should go do a thorough study on evolution from both sides of the arguments. That alone will help you understand why Darwinian evo is not proven but only accepted by a camp. Such is not the case with logically deduced facts and laws which every scientist must accept without argument. FYI, I'm not an atheist because I believe in evolution. That's your own Dreamland.FYI, stale and overused. I'm an atheist because of the lack of evidence for god/sWhat you tell yourself to feel better. You're an atheist cause you don't want to ever investigate the validity of creator for loosing your freedom and having accountability. If you attest to the reality of your emotions, conscience etc. you can't see or touch, you can relate with creator that exact way. Faith is a more tangible substrate than these. The question is if you're willing to. The fossil evidence alone establishes thisThe fossil record establishes common descent and adaptation not trans-speciation. SCIENTIFIC FACTS ARE ESTABLISHED BY OVERWHELMING SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, THEY CAN ONLY BE FALSIFIED BY THE SAME. WHEN A CREATARD GETS A NOBEL PRIZE FOR FALSIFYING EVOLUTION I WILL ACCEPT IT, BUT CREATIONISM WILL REMAIN AN UNEVIDENCED SUPERSTITIOUS MYTH.I almost applauded you but oops!, missed a spot. The interpretation by evolutionists will have to first be established by the findings without prejudiced interpolation, letting facts interpret themselves. What singularity?Since you don't know about it, don't bother. Just know that science has proposed a point where our current space-time logic disappears. Even your title seems confused. If something is valid, isnt it meant to be logical?How are questions valid if they are beyond logic, and therefore by definition irrational, that’s such an obviously errant title I want to laugh out loud.Laugh less, when in ignorance, I'd suggest, dear Tantrum. Validity is tied to reality/existence. Logic derives from self-evident reality and towards deduced reality. Go figure! Why on earth would any rational person want to pursue a quest for faith as well, faith is utterly useless for validating claims, as there is literally nothing you could not believe using faith, as I have already explained.Rubbish, you don’t half talk drivel. The best method we have for validating claims is the scientific methodFaith is utterly useless if you believe it's blind belief, and well, that's blind belief too because you could find out what faith is but choose not to. The undergirding yardstick of reality is consciousness. Whatever we're conscious of is self-evident reality. Learn girl, these are not derived by logic but from which we develop logic to deduce derived realities. This is why faith, like matter, isn't to be logically deduced. A little baby knows mama is real because it's aware of her not because of systematic deductions. We similarly know the universe is real, not by logic but by our consciousness of it. So the substantiality of faith, like our universe, is in consciousness not in logic. The question must be 'how to contact'. It is not about believing any claims but about contacting a tangible substrate. If one weren't and is busy convincing himself of anything, he is still faithless. logic is a method of reasoning that adheres to strict principles of validation, in order to remove bias and flawed reasoning.You're well informed but need training to correctly apply it. Let us now reconsider the ten questions of which for reasons best known to you, you avoided the all important final three. Ten questions I cannot answer these questions for anyone but any who would understand faith must answer these himself and then ask how faith is to be contacted, like his emotions are. Tantrum, over to you, you determine if we go further, chit-chat and tirades will not pay. If you ask the right questions, I can answer, else... CheersTrinus now? Let me in on your obsession with three, my dear. |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by dragonflyy(m): 7:08am On Jul 27, 2020 |
[s] DrLiveLogic:[/s] she said she's not an evolutionist but you want to turn her into one by fire by force ![]() Oya, see me here: I don't accept Evolution and I also don't believe in gods Stop being a coward and provide evidence for the god you believe in instead of reversing the burden of proof Bloody coward ![]() 3 Likes |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by dragonflyy(m): 7:09am On Jul 27, 2020 |
Tamaratonye5:Egbon free that small boy He is asking you to defend an argument you never made. I wonder why you're even indulging him. 1 Like |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by DrLiveLogic(m): 7:59am On Jul 27, 2020 |
dragonflyy: dragonflyy: Now you come to her rescue? LMAO. Quit being a jerk, feigning you can't read and acting like a kid while at it if we're gonna have a convo. Act mature at least. I've been the one asking her that if she'll forget her defence of evolutionism, we can get into the more important route where faith is found but no, she keeps trying to claim it's fact and proven. Tamaratonye5 even unmeritoriously tries to deny ID. So what you trying to pull? Well again, if you'd simply read, it's not my job or anyone else's to provide you with evidence for faith. creator put the innate ability in all his creation, else he would not be blameless in demanding individual accountability. The burden of proof lies on you solely. You wanna know about faith? You can try answering sincerely the ten questions, then as I've said a thousand times, ask the right question, on how to contact faith. If you want, you can then try what I would profer for yourself or abandon mission, your choice. Faith will only be found in the same domain your emotions and conscience are found, though superior in tangibility, not in the physical. Judas1X:Read the above. |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Judas1X: 8:12am On Jul 27, 2020 |
DrLiveLogic:Been observing your pitiful exchange with that lady with trepidation for your ability to say a thousand words at once without addressing a single point. Let me get this out of the way: Im not an evolutionist, biologist, physicist, or familiar with any of the natural sciences, so I don't get involved in those evolution back and forths that seemingly gives you erections. Going through your posts, I can't see anywhere you managed to show a tiny little bit of evidence for all the thousand and one claims you have deployed on this thread. I don't care for your meaningless questions that utilize ad ignorantiam fallacies to validate themselves as Tamara rightly pointed out. Anyways, I just have two questions for you If evolution is indeed wrong (let's assume for the sake of argument though), how does that evidence creationism? Since you claim things lacking objective evidence should not be believed, why then do you believe in god? If you insist god exists, what objective evidence can you present to prove he exists? 1 Like |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Judas1X: 8:32am On Jul 27, 2020 |
DrLiveLogic:Everyone hold your peace! Behold! The epitome of maturity speaks! Tamaratonye5 even unmeritoriously tries to deny ID. So what you trying to pull?Given that you have been attacking the poor lady for evidence of evolution, how can you claim she's denying intelligent design when you've offered nothing to back up your claims, eh, O ye failed doctor of Logic??! Well again, if you'd simply read, it's not my job or anyone else's to provide you with evidence for faith. creator put the innate ability in all his creation, else he would not be blameless in demanding individual accountability. The burden of proof lies on you solely. You wanna know about faith? You can try answering sincerely the ten questions, then as I've said a thousand times, ask the right question, on how to contact faith. If you want, you can then try what I would profer for yourself or abandon mission, your choice. Faith will only be found in the same domain your emotions and conscience are found, though superior in tangibility, not in the physical.Bros abeg attend to this: I don't care for your meaningless questions that utilize ad ignorantiam fallacies to validate themselves as Tamara rightly pointed out. Anyways, I just have two questions for youImma add this one as well: Since you value faith so much, on what basis do you reject superfluous claims, OR are you just content believing anything they tell you based on faith? 1 Like |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by DrLiveLogic(m): 9:19am On Jul 27, 2020 |
Judas1X:Bro, don't take me in endless circles like Tamaratonye5. For the umpteenth and more time. Faith is not 'trying to believe' anything at all, it is a substrate of its own to be contacted. Can't you guys at least read the posts before mentioning me. First, throw away what you've ever believed about faith and come to that understanding. Plus you have no right to believe what can't be verified or to doubt what hasn't been disproved. We wouldn't ask such a question if you didn't but wanted to believe about some fossil. We'd simply tell you where it is so you can go dig it up for yourself. Second, I'm the one saying to throw away the evolutionism argument so we can investigate faith independently so why the unreasonable question as if I validate faith by discarding evolutionism. My approach is only to offer a method that leads to the realisation of the substrate, faith. But it's up to you to go on the journey. Only he who seeks, finds. This same question, she brings up is therefore meaningless and invalid. Given that you have been attacking the poor lady for evidence of evolution, how can you claim she's denying intelligent design when you've offered nothing to back up your claims, eh, O ye failed doctor of Logic??!ID is self-evident truth, if we believe AI is intelligence at all. What are neural networks asides a replication of the brain? And if NN is considered intelligence as it replicates our brains. Do the math. It's not up to me to prove it nor will I try to. Bros abeg attend to this:And I should care about yours for some reason. Well, too bad bro. Whatever you believe or don't believe doesn't affect me. If you're not willing to consider the questions on consciousness and the immaterial parts of yourself, the platform on which faith would be found, abandon ship immediately. No one's begging you to. It's not my soul we're talking about here. The questions are for the willing not the unconcerned and the onus to find answers is only on the owner of the soul. Science is what it is today because men paid the price with their lives to verify certain unresolved questions they considered important. Do have a nice day. 1 Like |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Judas1X: 9:20am On Jul 27, 2020 |
DrLiveLogic:You've been displaying unparalleled arrogance on this thread. Maybe Tamara is too chicken to give you what you're asking for. Me, I have no qualms when it comes to delivering verbal artillery. Answer my questions boy. |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Judas1X: 9:36am On Jul 27, 2020 |
DrLiveLogic:Lol. Oboyee. It's the first time I'm hearing this one oo. Can you provide objective evidence of this "substrate" and how you contacted it bro? Your story interests me Throw away what you've ever believed about faith and come to this understanding.As far as I know, you're the only boy with this understanding ID is self-evident truth, if we believe AI is intelligence at all. What are neural networks asides a replication of the brain? And if NN is considered intelligence as it replicates our brains. Do the math. It's not up to me to prove it nor will I try to.Really? This is coming from the same boy who keeps riding Tamara for not presenting objective evidence for evolution? Do you know what the terms "objective" and "evidence" connote. These are bare claims nau. My brother ![]() And I should care about yours for some reason. Well, too bad bro. Whatever you believe or don't believe doesn't affect me.The truth is nasty, my dear failed logician. And the truth here is you want to bait us into considering your position using questions that appeal to ignorance instead of persuading us through the objective evidence. We see through the bullshit you've drowned yourself in, and if you think we'll jump into that pool of shit to play with you, you must be off your meds Do have a nice day.It has not come to that nau ![]() Young Man, if you they write exam, you go submit empty script con expect marker to mark am for you? Come on now, be a diligent young lad and attempt the questions I asked or forever be labelled a cowardly hypocrite or a swollen pussy. Nay, the ULTIMATE swollen pussy ![]() 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Tamaratonye5(f): 10:46am On Jul 27, 2020 |
DrLiveLogic:I appreciate the assertion; however, when I consider the source I simply have to chuckle. Yes, I can see how someone like you would make that mistake. DNA is not a code . DNA is a polymer, which is composed of individual chemical units called nucleotides. There are four types of these nucleotides, and we humans have decided to call them adenine, guanine, cytosine, and thymine. It is a chemical interaction and a natural process. Not intelligence DrLiveLogic:Someone went off their medication, lol! eta: I showed the sentence to my hubby, and I learned a new word. schizophasia : the disorganized speech characteristic of schizophrenia DrLiveLogic:Calling for help? DrLiveLogic:Straw man fallacy, since I never claimed to be either. Though we all note the duplicitous way you dismiss the very objective evidence you requested, whilst offering none for your bat shit crazy creatard fantasies. DrLiveLogic:Lying again, the theory of evolution contains nothing but objective evidence. That is what scientific theories are. DrLiveLogic:Nah. It's just the truth you seemingly can't handle, and makes you twist and turn in your bed at night, lol. DrLiveLogic:I’m an atheist because there is zero evidence for god fantasies, and it is axiomatic that their ubiquitous creation by humans stems from ignorance and superstition. As your posts amply demonstrate. DrLiveLogic:So it was bullshit you made up, I thought as much, lol.Tamaratonye5: What singularity? You don’t have even the most basic grasp of logic, that is abundantly clear.Since you don’t know about it, don’t bother. DrLiveLogic:Try referencing a dictionary once in a while you cretin. DrLiveLogic:I agree your blind faith is irrational, though why you’re repeating this back to me only you can know, Bullwinkle. ------------------------------ Cheers, Tamaraton Tetragammatron Tantrum 2 Likes |
Re: What Is Faith Really? by Tamaratonye5(f): 10:55am On Jul 27, 2020 |
Judas1X:I thought I was the only one who saw that. Yeah, though. His questions are disingenuous to put it mildly |
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