budaatum:

If I'm a stupid lazy zombie, I might have thought so, but if I wasnt a stupid lazy zombie and bothered to read the book, I would have found that there are many verses in the same book that tell me Islam is not by compulsion, and that seeming contradiction alone ought to make me think a little bit since it must seem as if I can't follow both, what seems to be, instructions.

The Quran is a book, tingz, and not any one single verse. Zombies quote verses in justification, while enlightened people will take the entire book with all its beautiful contradictions, as a whole.

Thinking and reason and understanding those contradictions is what makes people grow, while ignorantly just believing a verse is just plain stupidity.

budaatum:

Tintingz! Can I justify wife beating or killing unbelievers to intelligent you because of a belief that God has something to do with the Quran?

Would you accept such a stupid ignorant justification from me if you were a judge?

budaatum:

We have done this many times, but though it is obvious, you just can not accept it, I think now because your service to skeptism is of the lip.

Allah did not command anyone to beat their disobedient wives! The truth is you read in a book written 100s of years ago supposedly by an illiterate trader that an angel came from heaven and told him to write what you read today.

Skeptism should make you wonder if an angel truly came, and if it came from Allah, to begin with. That same skeptism should make you wonder if there is merit in beating your wife. And simply using your own eyes would make you wonder why so many Muslims seem to be disobeying their Almighty Most Wise Allah because most Muslims do not beat their wives.

"Allah did not command". It is zombies who read a book and say such a thing, and I think you would say you are not a zombie, so why do you use zombie expressions, tingz? I wonder! Is it because, without realising, you are actually a zombie?

Please know that aside from what one reads literally, and what it means (interpretation), their is understanding too, as in what it motivates one to do, and it is that understanding that is of Allah, and not mere words in some supposedly holy book.

tintingz:


If I believe in God the absolutely perfect being then I've to follow anything he commands, remember Abraham story that try to slaughter his SON, he obeyed God because God is the supreme perfect being!

Was Abraham ignorant?

The Qur'an is said to be from God(Allah), anything in the Qur'an is a command from the perfect being.

tintingz:

Like I said if Islam is very anti-violence like Jainism and Buddhism, there won't be justifications for terrorism actions, infact I won't associate terrorism with Islam because there won't be anything to justify with it.

tintingz:
Let me ask so that I won't be wasting my time.

Do you believe the Qur'an is words of Allah?

tintingz:

Doesn't change the fact that violence was encouraged in the Qur'an and any group can justify their actions with it. Good that you admit there are contradictions, isn't this problematic as anyone can just cherry pick anything and justify it with it?

budaatum:

buda is not a believer in anything, tingz, and prefers to understand instead since believing is unthinking and requires a lack of sceptism which buda happens to have imbibed massive doses of.

A more accurate question to ask someone like buda would be, What does it mean to say the Quran is the Word of Allah? Which I would answer though you have not asked.

I wonder if you are familiar with the Temptation of Christ where satan tempted Jesus with quotes from the Bible? That story shows how words in a book of God can be twisted in such a way that they become the words of satan, just as some do with the words in the Quran.

To say the Quran is the Word of Allah is to say that one has a viewpoint that makes one's understanding conform with one's idea of Allah. If ones understanding of Allah is wisdom and mercy ones understanding of the Quran will be a wise and merciful, and if one's understanding of Allah is that of an ignorant tyrant, one will be ignorant and tyranical.

The Quran itself is merely words in a book until one breathes the breathe of understanding into them.

budaatum:

Indeed their are contradictions, and its those contradictions that make the book valuable and which ought to make one sceptical of any one verse and therefore seek deeper understanding instead of just being a zombified ignorant believer who feels encouraged to violence by one single verse. I mean, would one not need to square the circle of the contradictory verses about fighting unbelievers with those that say no compulsion, or beat your wife with protect your wife?

Zombies justify their violence with the Quran, while thinking intelligent Quran readers know different.

budaatum:

Yet, there are many Jainists and Buddhists who justify their terrorism with their Jainist and Buddhist understandings, despite the religion itself promoting pacifism.

Read about Jainist terrorism here.

And Buddhist terrorism here.

budaatum:

Once you disregard all the knowledge about how the Quran came into existence and believe the Quran came from God, you are already zombified and ignorant. If you applied a tiny amount of skeptism, you'd likely know otherwise. Please see The Origins of the Qur'an so you'd know what unignorant Muslims might be aware of.

It is my opinion that the conduct of Abraham in that story was that of an ignorant person who wisened up before committing what most of us would have seen as unintelligent. If I were to do what Abraham is written to have done, you'd call me ignorant, even if I did not go threw with slaughtering my son. But do please correct me if I am wrong about you.

tintingz:


You keep insulting Islam and muslims. I don't know if you know that. Keep it up bro.

tintingz:


Where does Jainism and Buddhism commands killings?, I'm interested in this.

tintingz:


Are you saying contradictions are good thing and not problematic?

tintingz:


All this long story are irrelevant.

Is the Qur'an word of Allah as claimed by the book itself?

budaatum:

You must have gotten this black or white thinking from religion, tingz, and I strongly suggest you overcome and abandon it because almost all things are a lot more complex than simple black and white.

By the way, I think you might have the mind for some serious reading, so consider joining us read some Heidegger. It would be interesting to see what you make of it and I'll get to laugh if you struggle but at least the quality of our conversations can grow as your mind most definitely would.

Also, consider A Short Course In Intellectual Self Defence. It would increase your arsenal of fallacies so you don't only keep yelling "no straw man" whenever you disagree with people.

budaatum:

Yes, I am saying "contradictions are good", but because they are problematic.

If the book had no contradictions, people who read it would not have to think but just obey what is written in it, but the contradictions make that impossible since one would have to resolve the "do" with its opposite "don't". That resolution is what makes the book valuable as far as I'm concerned because it makes many zombies think.

budaatum:

That's the point, they aren't. Yet Jainists and Buddhist have at one time or another claimed they are killing in the name of their religion. Hopefully, you might understand that even though they claim to be Jainists and Buddhists, we could claim they are not Jainists and Buddhists by their actions just as boko haram is not Islam by theirs.

budaatum:

No, I'm not insulting Islam. If anything, I'm insulting ignorant Muslims and plan to blame you for that soon as anyone comes for me.

tintingz:


You're insulting Islam and Muslims here knows this.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

tintingz:
Ok, there's no where the Jainism and Buddhism doctrines commands killing nor any form of violence.

I just gave you Qur'an verses(Quran 9:29, 9:5) the Boko Haram pick up to justify their terrorism, if that doesn't exist in Jainism and Buddhism then what would they justify their terrorism with? I think there's no point of arguing further.

tintingz:


Is the Qur'an Allah's words?

tintingz:


Why aren't you answering the question? I don't believe in the Qur'an nor be a divine book.

You're the one supporting Islam here(if I'm correct), the Qur'an said the book is the word of Allah and every Muslims believe this, do you agree to this that the Qur'an is word of Allah? Straight answer please.

Until you answer this I won't argue with you further.

budaatum:

I feel they watch the worst practitioners of the religion, which is where the ex-Muslims here get their doctrine from and claim that's the religion, without understanding the zombified version they were given and rightly rebel against is not what many understand from reading the Quran. They have been programmed to see what they see, and even when they rebel, they still only see what they are told. I'll call them the zombies and watch tintingz completely miss the point that refuting that fact is his scotsman fallacy with him sticking absolutely to his preconceived notion with an inability to apply skeptism to his already made up mind.

The zombeism they claim is due to Islam is universally distributed in Nigeria, they'd find if they looked carefully. Almost all Nigerians bow down and worship their own religious book or preacher or imam or big man in their neighbourhood, all of which they dare not question, but rather than use skeptism to help them dig out a reason for this zombeism, tingz et al have made up their mind to blame it on the cure without really knowing that's what they do, and that, despite that same book being the beginning of their own eyes opening slightly.

Zombeism they speak of is the result of little information. The first and only book most people read is a holy book, which they are told came down from heaven and therefore must worship despite very limited understanding. I'm discussing with one in the Christian section who thinks he's smart despite his ignorant zombeism shinning through in almost every word he writes. You'd see on that thread how and what I am claiming opened Adam and Eve's eyes and freed them from zombeism. Unfortunately, tintingz is unknowingly claiming such people's misunderstanding is the books fault instead of the individuals ignorance and lack of understanding, and nothing one says will make either of them, despite being on opposite ends, skeptical to their strongly held preconceived beliefs.

Those who will make zombies of our people will make sure those people have as little access to as few sources of information as possible. It's why there's not enough books, no libraries, no electricity, ill-treated teachers and bad schools, and instead a multitude of religious institutions willing to zombify people and get those people to tithe for the privilege. We see the result as the inability of many Nigerians to think and reason for themselves and create employment for the millions of ill-educated unemployable youths graduating annually from our third world universities.

Skeptism, the questioning of knowledge, will make people understand why it is written that, humans must not read only one book or they will become malnourished.

The solution is to increase sceptism by providing people with the access to more information and the opportunity to reason with one another as we do on Nairaland. Even when we do not agree with one another, only the zombies will resist considering and questioning what they've heard or read which is why I do this.

sino:


Now you have unraveled the deceptions of some of the "neo atheists" and their modus operandi. I dear say, it is basically lip service to all these philosophical jargons. Eventually, they have become what they claim to want to eradicate. This is not surprising, after all we are all humans with our flaws...

Indeed, Islam had made seeking knowledge compulsory on both males and females in one of the reported sayings of the Prophet (SAW), and it is quite instructive that the first verse revealed was about seeking knowledge, Allah (SWT) Says in the Qur'an: "Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists)". One of the things frowned at in Islam is blind followership, every scholar of Islam is to be held based on the standards of the Qur'an and Sunnah, hence, it is pertinent to seek the knowledge of these two, else you might be easily misled. Of course, studying the Qur'an and Sunnah isn't about just learning how to read them, as some of these ex Muslims have claimed, but understanding! Allah SWT Says: "(This is) a Book (the Quran) which We have sent down to you, full of blessings that they may ponder (reflect) over its Verses, and that men of understanding may remember." (Qur'an 38:29) Also Allah SWT Says,"...Say, "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only they will remember [who are] people of understanding." (Qur'an 39:9).

"O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done." (Qur'an 49:6)

The verse above captures the ignorance of tintingz and the likes who hold on to the claims of terrorists and surprisingly, suspend their skepticism to become zombies! And no matter how you try to make them see the fallacy of their views, just like fanatics, they stick to their preconceived opinions. It is always a pathetic view...

I agree with the need to make people read more, have access to books...but when poverty ochestrated by the powers that be, bites hard, people loose the patience to seek understanding, they becomes tools in the hands of their benefactors...

Indeed, we can't really agree on everything, but we can learn from each other and that to me is the hallmark of intellectual discuss.

sino:


Now you have unraveled the deceptions of some of the "neo atheists" and their modus operandi. I dear say, it is basically lip service to all these philosophical jargons. Eventually, they have become what they claim to want to eradicate. This is not surprising, after all we are all humans with our flaws...

Indeed, Islam had made seeking knowledge compulsory on both males and females in one of the reported sayings of the Prophet (SAW), and it is quite instructive that the first verse revealed was about seeking knowledge, Allah (SWT) Says in the Qur'an: "Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists)". One of the things frowned at in Islam is blind followership, every scholar of Islam is to be held based on the standards of the Qur'an and Sunnah, hence, it is pertinent to seek the knowledge of these two, else you might be easily misled. Of course, studying the Qur'an and Sunnah isn't about just learning how to read them, as some of these ex Muslims have claimed, but understanding! Allah SWT Says: "(This is) a Book (the Quran) which We have sent down to you, full of blessings that they may ponder (reflect) over its Verses, and that men of understanding may remember." (Qur'an 38:29) Also Allah SWT Says,"...Say, "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only they will remember [who are] people of understanding." (Qur'an 39:9).

"O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done." (Qur'an 49:6)

The verse above captures the ignorance of tintingz and the likes who hold on to the claims of terrorists and surprisingly, suspend their skepticism to become zombies! And no matter how you try to make them see the fallacy of their views, just like fanatics, they stick to their preconceived opinions. It is always a pathetic view...

I agree with the need to make people read more, have access to books...but when poverty ochestrated by the powers that be, bites hard, people loose the patience to seek understanding, they becomes tools in the hands of their benefactors...

Indeed, we can't really agree on everything, but we can learn from each other and that to me is the hallmark of intellectual discuss.

budaatum:

That last paragraph encapsules my reason for being in the religious section. Ex-muslims and Christians mischaracterize the contents of the Quran and Bible then yell strawman when one disagree with their misunderstanding, but enlightened one's like you would eventually appear.

Tingz accuses me of insulting Muslims without realising its his own ignorance I am actually insulting for claiming to promote sceptism without realising he is not sceptical about his own supposed absolute knowledge, or, ignorance, to be precise, which makes him the zombie, though he'd not see he is. I can bet money on the fact that he'd completely miss the verses you quote above promoting sceptism, and claim Islam promotes zombeism. He does not see that the Quran is made the Word of God only if properly understood, otherwise it is the word of satan.

They can only be educated, I guess, though their actual learning is entirely up to them.

As for you, Allah continues to grow you in knowledge and wisdom, I see. For, I was going to repost mine you quoted hoping Tingz would get my point. But you've gone and done it for me with additions I knew not to include.

budaatum:

I'm not supporting anything, tingz, nor am I arguing with you. I am reasoning with you like Greek Philosophers would hoping we both may learn.

Define "Divine book".

budaatum:

I can assure you that in the entire cannon of Buddhism, at least, one can find something to justify killings and violence if one wants to. Its that vast. And I would not be surprised if the same can be found in Jainism, especially if one is literal like you are with the Quran.

budaatum:

Define "Allah's words".

tintingz:


Is the Qur'an Allah's words? Yes or No?

budaatum:

buda is not a believer in anything, tingz, and prefers to understand instead since believing is unthinking and requires a lack of sceptism which buda happens to have imbibed massive doses of.

A more accurate question to ask someone like buda would be, What does it mean to say the Quran is the Word of Allah? Which I would answer though you have not asked.

I wonder if you are familiar with the Temptation of Christ where satan tempted Jesus with quotes from the Bible? That story shows how words in a book of God can be twisted in such a way that they become the words of satan, just as some do with the words in the Quran.

To say the Quran is the Word of Allah is to say that one has a viewpoint that makes one's understanding conform with one's idea of Allah. If ones understanding of Allah is wisdom and mercy ones understanding of the Quran will be a wise and merciful, and if one's understanding of Allah is that of an ignorant tyrant, one will be ignorant and tyranical.

The Quran itself is merely words in a book until one breathes the breathe of understanding into them.

tintingz:
All this are irrelevant, you're just going in circles and beating round the bush.

Are you a skeptic? Yes or No?