Hello fellow Nairalanders? My question for the day is somewhat controversial and has the potential of causing needless distress if not treated with openness and well grounded research. It is the matter of the sacrifice Abraham was ordered to make, using his son as the sacrificial animal. The Muslims believe Ishmael was the son that Abraham was commanded to offer. But both the Jews and Christians believe Isaac was the sacrificial lamb!

The answer to this question holds the secret to the true God that should be worshipped. It's either Ishmael or Isaac, either Jehovah or Allah, either the Bible or the Quran. One has got to be a lie for the other to be true.

Personally I doubt both accounts.

Isaac,
I'll come up with reasons later in the day

From the look of things, it must have been Ishmael.

I am a Christian though.

marvrick:
Hello fellow Nairalanders? My question for the day is somewhat controversial and has the potential of causing needless distress if not treated with openness and well grounded research. It is the matter of the sacrifice Abraham was ordered to make, using his son as the sacrificial animal. The Muslims believe Ishmael was the son that Abraham was commanded to offer. But both the Jews and Christians believe Isaac was the sacrificial lamb!

The answer to this question holds the secret to the true God that should be worshipped. It's either Ishmael or Isaac, either Jehovah or Allah, either the Bible or the Quran. One has got to be a lie for the other to be true.

Personally I doubt both accounts.

The account of the journey of Abraham into Canaan is filled with contradictions and outright impossibilities that makes it quite unbelievable. Take for example the king of Gerardo finding old Sarah still attractive despite the fact that the Bible already cast her as old and already way past menopause in an earlier verse. So a whole king of Gerar, a philistine land cannot find more beautiful and younger women for his pleasure? And what about Abraham? Was the Bible right in calling Isaac Abraham's only son? Also, should Abraham's unquestioning execution of God's command a sign of his loyalty or should we conclude that his seeming trust/faith was simply because he knew he would still have one son even after offering Isaac?

potent5:
From the look of things, it must have been Ishmael.

I am a Christian though.

God probably never asked Abraham to murder any of his sons....
lets even assume he did..., it wouldn’t have been Ishmael.. becos Abraham never wanted a child from a servant to begin with, the wife technically forced him ... sacrificing Ishmael would have been too easy since abraham still had Isaac that was the son of his real wife and the promise God gave him.

Whether Isaac or Ishmael.. So, a mad man heard a voice and he thought God wanted him to kill his son.. If it is now, he will be sent to an asylum.. But my mumu country declared a public holiday for him..

That's going by biblical account. But how do you know if Isaac was in the picture at the time?

1StopRudeness:


God probably never asked Abraham to murder any of his sons....
lets even assume he did..., it wouldn’t have been Ishmael.. becos Abraham never wanted a child from a servant to begin with, the wife technically forced him ... sacrificing Ishmael would have been too easy since abraham still had Isaac that was the son of his real wife and the promise God gave him.

potent5:
That's going by biblical account. But how do you know if Isaac was in the picture at the time?

Honestly... I don’t understand the question... please rephrase.....because both sons was already the picture b4 the sacrifice came up....

What is the source of your position the two sons were around? Is it the Bible or Quran?

1StopRudeness:


Honestly... I don’t understand the question... please rephrase.....because both sons was already the picture b4 the sacrifice came up....

potent5:
What is the source of your position the two sons were around? Is it the Bible or Quran?

source is bible

marvrick:
Hello fellow Nairalanders? My question for the day is somewhat controversial and has the potential of causing needless distress if not treated with openness and well grounded research. It is the matter of the sacrifice Abraham was ordered to make, using his son as the sacrificial animal. The Muslims believe Ishmael was the son that Abraham was commanded to offer. But both the Jews and Christians believe Isaac was the sacrificial lamb!

The answer to this question holds the secret to the true God that should be worshipped. It's either Ishmael or Isaac, either Jehovah or Allah, either the Bible or the Quran. One has got to be a lie for the other to be true.

Personally I doubt both accounts.

First it was not A Commandment but a Promotional Exam.

Secondly, I love the Highest and His Holy Son, so I know that Isaac was not meant to be a sacrifice, which is the purpose of An Examination, with the Examined Never Knowing the Outcome of the Exam.

But he is simply to Provide his own Truest Answer to the Question put to him.

marvrick:
Hello fellow Nairalanders? My question for the day is somewhat controversial and has the potential of causing needless distress if not treated with openness and well grounded research. It is the matter of the sacrifice Abraham was ordered to make, using his son as the sacrificial animal. The Muslims believe Ishmael was the son that Abraham was commanded to offer. But both the Jews and Christians believe Isaac was the sacrificial lamb!

The answer to this question holds the secret to the true God that should be worshipped. It's either Ishmael or Isaac, either Jehovah or Allah, either the Bible or the Quran. One has got to be a lie for the other to be true.

Personally I doubt both accounts.

You said you doubt both accounts which makes this your question invalid as nothing anyone says will make sense to you since you have your mind already made up on a stance.

I wonder why you asked though.

Anyways for the records, it was Isaac.

Shalom.

This is from the site answeringislam.org:

Many Muslims allege that one indication that the Bible has been altered to discredit Islam is the story of Abraham and the divine command to sacrifice his son. Most Muslims insist that this son was Ishmael. The Bible, however, claims that the son was Isaac (Genesis 22:9, Hebrews 11:17, and James 2:21).

There is only one reference in all the Qur'an that relates this incident and it begins with Abraham making this request:

"O my Lord, grant me a righteous (son)!" So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear. Then when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said, "O my son, I see in a vision that I offer thee in sacrifice. Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said, "O my father, do as thou art commanded. Thou will find me if Allah so wills one practicing patience and constancy!" So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah) and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice), We called out to him, "O Abraham, thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" Thus indeed do we reward those who do right. For this was obviously a trial -- and We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice. -- Surat-us Saffat (37):99-107

Notice carefully in this passage, which is the only one dealing with the sacrifice, that the name of the son is not given! It does indicate, however, that this was the boy whose birth was foretold as "good news." If one searches the whole Qur'an, he will find nothing mentioned about the birth of Ishmael. In fact very little is said about Ishmael, and absolutely nothing is said about the identity of his mother or his sons. It is from the Bible that we learn that Ishmael's mother was named Hagar, and that Ishmael had twelve sons (Gen. 25:12-17). Getting back to the "good news" mentioned in the above verse of the Qur'an, we read this about Isaac and his mother Sarah:

Has the story reached thee of the honored guests of Abraham? Behold, they entered his presence and said 'Peace!" He said "Peace". ... They said, "Fear not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge. But his wife came forward (laughing) aloud! She smote her forehead and said, "A barren old woman! " They said, "Even so has thy Lord spoken: and He is full of wisdom and knowledge." -- Surat-uz Zariyat (51):24-25, 28-30

In addition to this, we read a summary of Abraham and Isaac which follows the Qur'anic passage dealing with the sacfifice:

Peace and salutation to Abraham! Thus indeed do we reward those who do right. For he was one of Our believing Servants. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet - one of the righteous. We blessed him and Isaac. -- Surat-us Saffat (37):109-113

Notice the phrases "and they gave him glad tidings of a son" and "We gave him the good news of Isaac." No such wording can be found for the birth of Ishmael in the Qur'an. It should now be clear that the son about whom the good news was given and who was prepared for sacfifice as described in Sura 37:99-107 was not Ishmael, but Isaac which is exactly what the Bible teaches.

In the beginning of this discussion, it was mentioned that most Muslims believe the son was Ishmael. Not all do! Those Muslims who have carefully studied the Qur'an realize that the evidence points to Isaac. For this very reason, Yusuf Ali in his world-renowned commentary of the Holy Qur'an, page 1204, note 4096, admits the following: "The boy thus born was according to Muslim tradition (which however is not unanimous on this point) the first-born of Abraham viz. Ismail." Notice the words "according to Muslim tradition" and "which however is not unanimous." It is obvious that the claim that the son was Ishmael is not according to the Qur'an! It is important to be reminded that the Qur'an itself states that it came to confirm the previous Holy Books, not to contradict them. It appears that the Qur'an is in agreement with the Bible and that it is Muslim tradition which disagrees!

marvrick:
The account of the journey of Abraham into Canaan is filled with contradictions and outright impossibilities that makes it quite unbelievable. Take for example the king of Gerardo finding old Sarah still attractive despite the fact that the Bible already cast her as old and already way past menopause in an earlier verse.

So a whole king of Gerar, a philistine land cannot find more beautiful and younger women for his pleasure?

I do not know what you read but Sarah was very very beautiful and I know you and I have seen very beautiful women who were still beautiful even past their 50's, so that it is not unusual.

I know you are a womaniser, so surely, you know that the desiring of beautiful women is not restricted by age and youth or ability to birth a child, as even Proven by Romans and Sexuality Section in Nairaland here.

And a king knows that too, so nothing unusual here either.

marvrick:

And what about Abraham? Was the Bible right in calling Isaac Abraham's only son?

Yes it is, for we see that Abraham INTENDED to stay loyal to his True Wife (as a man thinketh, so is he). Therefore, his true son is the son born of his wife as he had AT ALL TIMES INTENDED!

And it is reported that he had only one son, in Accordance With His True Intention, Therefore the Bible account is True and in order.

marvrick:

Also, should Abraham's unquestioning execution of God's command a sign of his loyalty or should we conclude that his seeming trust/faith was simply because he knew he would still have one son even after offering Isaac?

What you do not see is that by that time, Abraham had accommolated a great amount of information about Who God was and is, which God saw and therefore Examined him, to see if Abraham Truly Knew what he (Abraham) had learnt about Him.

Again, Nothing unusual about this

Religion out of jealousy - kill Christians wherever you find them.

potent5:
From the look of things, it must have been Ishmael.

I am a Christian though.

You are not likely to be a christian or you don't have a bible or read it. if the claim of bible about the past is wrong what about the prophecies being fulfilled in our time?

Dtruthspeaker:


First it was not A Commandment but a Promotional Exam.

Lets stop giving God a bad name..promotion exam?? What does that even mean...
.. so when Peter denied Christ three times he wasn’t promoted... he had to repeat class...?? Please tell me...??

The Bible is full of ambiguous accounts and statements... the reason is because humans wrote them out of personal premise and their interaction with God that was to big for them to comprehend in ful....man isn't perfect.....and that’s why it’s important to juxtapose other biblical accounts...

I’m sure u have read the Bible well... God doesn’t tempt people with evil..The book of James made that clear... he ddnt need to tell Abraham to murder his son as a test to promote him or know how loyal Abraham’s heart was.....

So two things was likely involved in the account if Genesis.

1)Abraham likely misinterpreted God’s word when he told him he will use his descendant to save his people. Abraham assumed it was the sacrificing of Isaac God was talking about....Not knowing it was Jesus...( let us remember, Abraham ddnt write the account of genesis, someone else did hundreds of years later... and the Old Testament writers attributed every occurrence to God..the New Testament made things clearer .)

2) an angel was the one testing Abraham... because if you go to verse 11 if genesis 22, it said, An angel appeared and said don’t lay hands on the child, now I know u fear God.... if it was God talking, why isn’t that statement “now I know u fear me”

Which of the books, chapter and verse?

1StopRudeness:


source is bible

We are not talking about prophecies here.

MightySparrow:
You are not likely to be a christian or you don't have a bible or read it. if the claim of bible about the past is wrong what about the prophecies being fulfilled in our time?

1StopRudeness:


Lets stop giving God a bad name..promotion exam?? What does that even mean...
.. so when Peter denied Christ three times he wasn’t promoted... he had to repeat class...?? Please tell me...??

I Represent God and I understand very many of His Actions. It is wicked people who already Pre-desire to view the Lord as wicked, that Construe All His Acts and Words wickedly and in a wicked light.

You already know that this was not an exam but rather A Clear Event to Show Peter that he was not as strong as he thought he was.

1StopRudeness:

The Bible is full of ambiguous accounts and statements... the reason is because humans wrote them out of personal premise and their interaction with God that was to big for them to comprehend in ful....man isn't perfect.....and that’s why it’s important to juxtapose other biblical accounts...

This is Not True, it is Rather Very Precisely Written but It Requires "Understanding" to fully comprehend it.

And that particular "Understanding" to Comprehend the Bible, Comes From the Lord Himself and it is Given By Him ONLY and it Can Never Be Acquired or Obtained or Attained.

It is a Gift!

1StopRudeness:

I’m sure u have read the Bible well... God doesn’t tempt people with evil..The book of James made that clear... he ddnt need to tell Abraham to murder his son as a test to promote him or know how loyal Abraham’s heart was.....

The Lord does not do evil, so therefore, He can not test with evil and all the tests of God had no evil in them and we're not once, evil.

And it was Always "A Watch and See what ye shall do" situation.

Which was why when He saw that Abraham was going to do what He Commanded and that Abraham Truly Knew Him, He Quickly and Promptly Stopped him (Abraham) by Sending an Angel and Blessed him Massively for Passing such a very hard exam.

Which was the same thing He did with Job!

1StopRudeness:

So two things was likely involved in the account if Genesis.

1)Abraham likely misinterpreted God’s word when he told him he will use his descendant to save his people. Abraham assumed it was the sacrificing of Isaac God was talking about....Not knowing it was Jesus...( let us remember, Abraham ddnt write the account of genesis, someone else did hundreds of years later... and the Old Testament writers attributed every occurrence to God..the New Testament made things clearer .)

2) an angel was the one testing Abraham... because if you go to verse 11 if genesis 22, it said, An angel appeared and said don’t lay hands on the child, now I know u fear God.... if it was God talking, why isn’t that statement “now I know u fear me”

Wrong on both counts.

Abraham knew many many things but he did not know for sure how and the way and manner God's Word shall be fulfilled Only the fact that it shall must come to pass.

And (2) an Angel of God and from God can not test. He Executes the Instructions of God.

marvrick:
The account of the journey of Abraham into Canaan is filled with contradictions and outright impossibilities that makes it quite unbelievable. Take for example the king of Gerardo finding old Sarah still attractive despite the fact that the Bible already cast her as old and already way past menopause in an earlier verse. So a whole king of Gerar, a philistine land cannot find more beautiful and younger women for his pleasure? And what about Abraham? Was the Bible right in calling Isaac Abraham's only son? Also, should Abraham's unquestioning execution of God's command a sign of his loyalty or should we conclude that his seeming trust/faith was simply because he knew he would still have one son even after offering Isaac?

So if you have 4 sons and you're given a pistol to shoot one of them you will do it because, as you reasoned, you still have other 3 sons, right?

potent5:
Which of the books, chapter and verse?

Didn’t u read in the Bible urself....Gen16 Ishmael was born, many years later, Gen 21 Isaac was born....don’t know how many years later.. but in the same Gen 21 Ishmael and her mother was sent away perhaps for the sake of peace in the home... but if Abraham but if Abraham had moved his servant and son enough, he wouldn’t have sent anyone away for the other...

Gen 22 : no one knew how many years later that was...but the issue sacrifice came: how could it have been Ishmael when he and the mother were gone..

Btw ..I feel like I’m in an interrogation with you....it’s suppose to be a dialogue.... if you don’t have knowledge of the Bible...then we shouldn’t both be discussing the Bible.....if u are trying to drive home a point....you are making it too lengthy by telling me to give u a book, chapter and a verse to find something .....Is that how the accounts of the Bible are written ......u’ll just find all the information u are looking for in one verse??

Please don’t ask me for a verse... if I can’t drive home your point without trying to sound like an interrogator....lets call it a day....

Dtruthspeaker:


And it was Always "A Watch and See what ye shall do" situation.

Which was why when He saw that Abraham was going to do what He Commanded and that Abraham Truly Knew Him, He Quickly and Promptly Stopped him (Abraham) by Sending an Angel and Blessed him Massively for Passing such a very hard exam.

Wrong on both counts.

And (2) an Angel of God and from God can not test. He Executes the Instructions of God.

Like I said u people give God a bad name ...cos u don’t juxtapose biblical account... what do U mean by God truly knew.??so God ddnt truly know before...??
If the son i.e Jesus, could tell word for word what Peter would do despite as humans we all have free will....so where does “truly knew”come in to the action of Abraham... so God doesn’t know fully until He had to tell Abraham to murder..??

Like I said the u earlier the New Testament made things a lot clearer......

U said angels excute instruction only:
in the book of luke when Zechariah doubted the message of Angel Gabriel, was it God that also instructed the angel to make the guy dumb till the delivery of John??
U guys think angels are zombies.....they are not.. they have mind of their own like humans.. and that’s why Satan chose to do contrary to God’s will.....
See a lot of accounts in the Bible especially genesis is very vague...and I noticed the writers substituted angel for lord ... Lord and God doesn’t exactly mean the same things in some context...
e.g see Gen 18v20-21 ..And the Lord said, Because the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is exceedingly grievous,
I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether vilel and wicked as is the cry of it which has come to Me; and if not, I will know. .... so tell me... so God does not know...?? So he has to come down and know??

Same thing in genesis 18 where 3visitors appears to abraham... the Bible started that chapter with “the Lord” like it’s jyst one person... are those three visitors God all together....they even ate the food Sarah prepared.... does God eat..??

The only thing I took from the story is that God does not accept human sacrifice.. It is an abomination..
The story is not literal, but allegorical and metaphorical...

Move on, God is not a man or human being.. God is the personification of divine consciousness..

Bros, no vex about my questions.

I just feel that it would make more sense and have be worth the kind of blessing that followed, if Abraham asked to sacrifice his only son than when he had 2 sons. When Abraham had 2 sons the significance of sacrificing one of them reduced by 50 percent. That's why I feel it happened when his only successor was Ishmael.

1StopRudeness:




Didn’t u read in the Bible urself....Gen16 Ishmael was born, many years later, Gen 21 Isaac was born....don’t know how many years later.. but in the same Gen 21 Ishmael and her mother was sent away perhaps for the sake of peace in the home... but if Abraham but if Abraham had moved his servant and son enough, he wouldn’t have sent anyone away for the other...

Gen 22 : no one knew how many years later that was...but the issue sacrifice came: how could it have been Ishmael when he and the mother were gone..

Btw ..I feel like I’m in an interrogation with you....it’s suppose to be a dialogue.... if you don’t have knowledge of the Bible...then we shouldn’t both be discussing the Bible.....if u are trying to drive home a point....you are making it too lengthy by telling me to give u a book, chapter and a verse to find something .....Is that how the accounts of the Bible are written ......u’ll just find all the information u are looking for in one verse??

Please don’t ask me for a verse... if I can’t drive home your point without trying to sound like an interrogator....lets call it a day....

1StopRudeness:


Like I said u people give God a bad name ...cos u don’t juxtapose biblical account... what do U mean by God truly knew.??so God ddnt truly know before...??
If the son i.e Jesus, could tell word for word what Peter would do despite as humans we all have free will....so where does “truly knew”come in to the action of Abraham... so God doesn’t know fully until He had to tell Abraham to murder

Like I said the u earlier the New Testament made things a lot clearer......

Do you not know what "To see what they shall do" means and the implication or consequences thereof?

1StopRudeness:

U said angels excute instruction only:
in the book of luke when Zechariah doubted the message of Angel Gabriel, was it God that also instructed the angel to make the guy dumb till the delivery of John??
U guys think angels are zombies.....they are not.. they have mind of their own like humans.. and that’s why Satan chose to do contrary to God’s will.....

Before Zechariah, Exodus 23:21 already Clearly warns us how dangerous it is to slip up in the presence of an Angel and all the various encounters with an Angel have always been fearful.

Angels are Very Dangerous! But they come to you Because, they have been sent by God, if not, they would not come.

1StopRudeness:

See a lot of accounts in the Bible especially genesis is very vague...and I noticed the writers substituted angel for lord ... Lord and God doesn’t exactly mean the same things in some context...
e.g see Gen 18v20-21 ..And the Lord said, Because the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is exceedingly grievous,
I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether vilel and wicked as is the cry of it which has come to Me; and if not, I will know. .... so tell me... so God does not know...?? So he has to come down and know??

Same thing in genesis 18 where 3visitors appears to abraham... the Bible started that chapter with “the Lord” like it’s jyst one person... are those three visitors God all together....they even ate the food Sarah prepared.... does God eat..??

When the Bible says the Lord or Lord God, it Truly Always meant the Lord Who is God over man.

The Lord God Also Rules over Angels and they carry out His Instructions. Exodus 23:23/Mathew 24:30/31.

Dtruthspeaker:


Do you not know what "To see what they shall do" means and the implication or consequences thereof?



Before Zechariah, Exodus 23:21 already Clearly warns us how dangerous it is to slip up in the presence of an Angel and all the various encounters with an Angel have always been fearful.

Angels are Very Dangerous! But they come to you Because, they have been sent by God, if not, they would not come.



When the Bible says the Lord or Lord God, it Truly Always meant the Lord Who is God over man.

The Lord God Also Rules over Angels and they carry out His Instructions. Exodus 23:23/Mathew 24:30/31.

You are beginning to have sense little by little..

potent5:
Bros, no vex about my questions.

I just feel that it would make more sense and have be worth the kind of blessing that followed, if Abraham asked to sacrifice his only son than when he had 2 sons. When Abraham had 2 sons the significance of sacrificing one of them reduced by 50 percent. That's why I feel it happened when his only successor was Ishmael.

God sees the heart of everyone..., if Abraham considered Ishmael his son and if he had any regard for the slave... he won’t send them packing with a water jar..... as far as that bible account is concerned and human nature... Abraham technically had only one son he loved.. and the instruction came as “the son you love” so that he will no go and look for Ishmael that he had sent away and he ddnt really love...

You are more convincing now. But...

1StopRudeness:


God sees the heart of everyone..., if Abraham considered Ishmael his son and if he had any regard for the slave... he won’t send them packing with a water jar..... as far as that bible account is concerned and human nature... Abraham technically had only one son he loved.. and the instruction came as “the son you love” so that he will no go and look for Ishmael that he had sent away and he ddnt really love...

marvrick:
Hello fellow Nairalanders? My question for the day is somewhat controversial and has the potential of causing needless distress if not treated with openness and well grounded research. It is the matter of the sacrifice Abraham was ordered to make, using his son as the sacrificial animal. The Muslims believe Ishmael was the son that Abraham was commanded to offer. But both the Jews and Christians believe Isaac was the sacrificial lamb!

The answer to this question holds the secret to the true God that should be worshipped. It's either Ishmael or Isaac, either Jehovah or Allah, either the Bible or the Quran. One has got to be a lie for the other to be true.

Personally I doubt both accounts.

Op, the answer to your poser is in the Bible!

1. At what point in Abraham's Life he's got "Thine ONLY Son"

2. Abraham's third Leg was cut (Circumscise) when? 99 years. When was Issac born? When Abraham was 100years. Ishmael was born when Abraham was 86years.

3. What was/is the event/sign of God's Covenant with Abraham? Circumscsion! That day ALL males in his household(himself, son and servant)

4. When Issac was born, Abraham had TWO not an ONLY Son.

The name Ishmael was effaced by those Jewish Reprobates. The Christians inherited the Lie and are running with.