Aegerine discussing geologic verses with xmuslim

I would like us to define our approach/methology first.

My proposal. For a verse to be considered a scientific fact. It must pass these tests.

1. No civilization ever mentioned it before Qur'an

2. Muhammad never travel to any civilization that says similar thing in the past

3. It must be explicit (self explanatory) and not generic

4. Early scholars must interpret it to mean what we're infering

What do you think about this proposal. Any ammendment?

Xmuslim:
I would like us to define our approach/methology first.

My proposal. For a verse to be considered a scientific fact. It must pass these tests.

1. No civilization ever mentioned it before Qur'an

2. Muhammad never travel to any civilization that says similar thing in the past

3. It must be explicit (self explanatory) and not generic

4. Early scholars must interpret it to mean what we're infering

What do you think about this proposal. Any ammendment?

I pray that this proof beneficial to you, me and every other observers. Your proposal is fine to work with

Which verse shall we start with ?

I suggest Qur'an 78 vs 7

Aegerine:




I pray that this proof beneficial to you, me and every other observers. Your proposal is fine to work with

Which verse shall we start with ?

I suggest Qur'an 78 vs 7

I didn't forget the evidence you requested yesterday. I think I've once quoted on nairaland but I will find it. Just kinda busy ni.

And the mountain as peg. The verse you quoted.

It is in agreement with our understanding of today's geology.

However, it is not 100% correct. Although civilization before Muhammad know about this phenomenon (reference coming).

Mountains are formed due to the eruption of magma usually at convergent plate boundary. These mountain stabilise the crust temporarily (thousands or millions of years) until the mountain develops faults and other structures that may lead to another earthquake especially if it is close to the plate boundary.

My points here are two

1. Civilization knew this before Muhammad

2. It is not 100% correct that mountain stabilise the crust permanently as suggested by the verse quoted

Xmuslim:
I didn't forget the evidence you requested yesterday. I think I've once quoted on nairaland but I will find it. Just kinda busy ni.

OK.. I will be waiting

Xmuslim:
And the mountain as peg. The verse you quoted.

It is in agreement with our understanding of today's geology.

However, it is not 100% correct. Although civilization before Muhammad know about this phenomenon (reference coming).

Mountains are formed due to the eruption of magma usually at convergent plate boundary. These mountain stabilise the crust temporarily (thousands or millions of years) until the mountain develops faults and other structures that may lead to another earthquake especially if it is close to the plate boundary.

My points here are two

1. Civilization knew this before Muhammad

2. It is not 100% correct that mountain stabilise the crust permanently as suggested by the verse quoted

When the Qur'an refers to mountains as pegs, it is not just talking about an individual mountains in solitary, but rather all the entire networks of mountains that define the architecture of the earth's surface..

Therefore, the Idea of the loss in stability of the earth surface due to the wearing off of an individual mountain is inconsistent with logical reasoning. Mountains are the greatest illustrations of stability on the face of the earth. How then could it be possible that the destruction of a mountain which is equally been cancelled by the formations of others can translate to mean temporary stability.

The stability referred to in that verse is permanent till the day that Allah decide to overturn this earth. That is the reason why the crust is still stable beneath you till this point despite is thinness relative to the mantle and core combined.


Which civilization spoke about it before the revelations? I want to learn pls. As a geologist, I am aware that it takes the development of sophisticated geophysical techniques few decades ago to understand the concept of mountain roots which that verse and other similar verses were giving hints about centuries ago.


Your two objections successfully debunked

Aegerine:




When the Qur'an refers to mountains as pegs, it is not just talking about an individual mountains in solitary, but rather all the entire networks of mountains that define the architecture of the earth's surface..

Therefore, the Idea of the loss in stability of the earth surface due to the wearing off of an individual mountain is inconsistent with logical reasoning. Mountains are the greatest illustrations of stability on the face of the earth. How then could it be possible that the destruction of a mountain which is equally been cancelled by the formations of others can translate to mean temporary stability.

The stability referred to in that verse is permanent till the day that Allah decide to overturn this earth. That is the reason why the crust is still stable beneath you till this point despite is thinness relative to the mantle and core combined.


Which civilization spoke about it before the revelations? I want to learn pls. As a geologist, I am aware that it takes the development of sophisticated geophysical techniques few decades ago to understand the concept of mountain roots which that verse and other similar verses were giving hints about centuries ago.


Your two objections successfully debunked

THE BIGGEST STABILIZING ENTITY OF OUR PLANET IS A SYSTEM OF MOUNTAINS BENEATH THE OCEAN.

IT'S CALLED THE MID RIDGE MOUNTAIN SYSTEM.

IT RUNS FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF KILOMETRES ACROSS DIFFERENT CONTINENTS.

I'M NO GEOLOGIST, JUST HERE TO SUPPORT MY BROTHER.

Aegerine:




When the Qur'an refers to mountains as pegs, it is not just talking about an individual mountains in solitary, but rather all the entire networks of mountains that define the architecture of the earth's surface..

Therefore, the Idea of the loss in stability of the earth surface due to the wearing off of an individual mountain is inconsistent with logical reasoning. Mountains are the greatest illustrations of stability on the face of the earth. How then could it be possible that the destruction of a mountain which is equally been cancelled by the formations of others can translate to mean temporary stability.

The stability referred to in that verse is permanent till the day that Allah decide to overturn this earth. That is the reason why the crust is still stable beneath you till this point despite is thinness relative to the mantle and core combined.




Your two objections successfully debunked

any evidencet from islamic tradition to support this claim?

i want us to be as honest as possible. I dont care if there is a verse that support geological phenomenom, but lets stick y to our methodology without reading our own meaning into the quran. perhaps you may quote the tafsir of the verse to support your claim

motayoayinde:


THE BIGGEST STABILIZING ENTITY OF OUR PLANET IS A SYSTEM OF MOUNTAINS BENEATH THE OCEAN.

IT'S CALLED THE MID RIDGE MOUNTAIN SYSTEM.

IT RUNS FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF KILOMETRES ACROSS DIFFERENT CONTINENTS.

I'M NO GEOLOGIST, JUST HERE TO SUPPORT MY BROTHER.

dont start I support bla bla stuff on this thread. we are here to educate ourselves irrespective of what you belive. I know no one is free from biase, but try to minimise it

Aegerine:



.

The stability referred to in that verse is permanent till the day that Allah decide to overturn this earth. [b]That is the reason why the crust is still stable [/b]beneath you till this point despite is thinness relative to the mantle and core combined.




Your two objections successfully debunked

what do you mean by the stability of the crust? kindly define what stability mean inthis context

Xmuslim:
dont start I support bla bla stuff on this thread. we are here to educate ourselves irrespective of what you belive. I know no one is free from biase, but try to minimise it

DON'T QUARREL, STATE YOUR FACTS.

Aegerine:



Which civilization spoke about it before the revelations? I want to learn pls. As a geologist, I am aware that it takes the development of sophisticated geophysical techniques few decades ago to understand the concept of mountain roots which that verse and other similar verses were giving hints about centuries ago.


Your two objections successfully debunked

christian bible came before quran. check out these verses that mention similar thing

Psalm 18:7 The earth trembled and quaked, and the foundations of the mountains shook; they trembled because he was angry.

Job 28:9 : People assault the flinty rock with their hands and lay bare the roots of the mountains.

I also read some stuff about greek or roman civilization regarding this issue and the issue of earth and heaven being together before they were splitted. unfortunatrly I can;t see the reference at the moment so we can coencentrate on the one I gave from the bible.

Muslim argument regarding similarity in the bible is not unknown. ALLAH also reveal the bible so anything that is similar is because it is from the same author but anyting difference is because of the curruption of the bible. I disagree with this.

However, let us concentrate on the validity of the meaning of the verse. whether tafseer and hadith infer the meaning you are giving to the verse[. and whether it is actually inline with the modern geological understanding

I am investing my time on this thread the same way I did on the thread titled why I left islam which was later removed by unknown moderator. I would not be happy if any moderator remove this thread too. I dont know why such moderator is so insecure about his religion

Xmuslim:
any evidencet from islamic tradition to support this claim?

i want us to be as honest as possible. I dont care if there is a verse that support geological phenomenom, but lets stick y to our methodology without reading our own meaning into the quran. perhaps you may quote the tafsir of the verse to support your claim

The word used in that the verse is "Jibala" which is the plural form of mountain. (mountains). "Jabal" is the singular (mountain).

Therefore you are one bringing in your own understanding of weathering which does not apply in this context. I have no need of delving into tafsir to understand a basic concept as this.

In the light of this, what you quoted stand valid still

Aegerine:



The word used in that the verse is "Jibala" which is the plural form of mountain. (mountains). "Jabal" is the singular (mountain).

Therefore you are one bringing in your own understanding of weathering which does not apply in this context. I have no need of delving into tafsir to understand a basic concept as this.

In the light of this, what you quoted stand valid still

Well, whether mountains or mountain. it is still clear the verse is talking about the mountain as peg which may be translated as somthing that stabilise something. but crust is never stable na. it is in constant motion and vulnerable to earthquake depending on the region.

we can argue what peg also mean. does it mean mountain are sent down as peg (based on the linguistic meaning of the peg). I dont want to drag it too much.

I understand that we both have our biases and your wish will be to prove that quran support the geologic fact. but we cant read our meaning to a vague verse.

anyway, bring another verse, let's move on

what I have proven on this first verse quoted

1. it was also in the christain bible (not a new quranic invention)

2. it is not 100 percent accurate because the crust is never stable. it is in constant motion. thus, mountain as peg stabilising the crust is a fallacy

3. thee verse is vague. what does it mean by stability. what does the peg mean. it is not self explanatory unless we read our meaning into it. we all know that peg is something driven into the ground from the surface. mountain are not formed that way

Xmuslim:


christian bible came before quran. check out these verses that mention similar thing

Psalm 18:7 The earth trembled and quaked, and the foundations of the mountains shook; they trembled because he was angry.

Job 28:9 : People assault the flinty rock with their hands and lay bare the roots of the mountains.

I also read some stuff about greek or roman civilization regarding this issue and the issue of earth and heaven being together before they were splitted. unfortunatrly I can;t see the reference at the moment so we can coencentrate on the one I gave from the bible.

Muslim argument regarding similarity in the bible is not unknown. ALLAH also reveal the bible so anything that is similar is because it is from the same author but anyting difference is because of the curruption of the bible. I disagree with this.

However, let us concentrate on the validity of the meaning of the verse. whether tafseer and hadith infer the meaning you are giving to the verse[. and whether it is actually inline with the modern geological understanding

Are you trying to equate all those metaporical excerpts from the bible to an undisputable statement of fact in the Qur'an.

Are those the civilizations that you are referring to?


The Qur'an referred to the mountains as pegs on the earth's surface giving it stability in many of its verses, and it takes modern geology over a millennium to discover that, and you are trying to equate that fact with an observe quaking and trembling of the earth which ancient mythologies have already tied to the anger of some gods.

Aegerine:







Are those the civilizations that you are referring to?

I told you I cant find the reference at the moment, so I withdrew the claim

Aegerine:





Are you trying to equate all those metaporical excerpts from the bible to an undisputable statement of fact in the Qur'an.

Are those the civilizations that you are referring to?


The Qur'an referred to the mountains as pegs on the earth's surface giving it stability in many of its verses, and it takes modern geology over a millennium to discover that, and you are trying to equate that fact with an observe quaking and trembling of the earth which ancient mythologies have already tied to the anger of some gods.

I understand we may not want to agree since we have our biases

but try to read between the lines. What does peg means. how does peg relate to mountain formation (zero correlation)

talking about mythology. islam also belive that earthquake is a result of allah anger. what do you say about that?

Aegerine:





Are you trying to equate all those metaporical excerpts from the bible to an undisputable statement of fact in the Qur'an.

the same way you read meaning into quran, christian can read same meaning to those verses. who define metaphorical and non metaphorical bible verses. what is your criteria

still on the meaning of PEG. if you drive a peg into something, will the peg move and will it float? peg will be in position (no movement).

Are mountain moving? you are a geologist you know the answer to this. the verse you quoted is too vague my friend

Xmuslim:
what I have proven on this first verse quoted

1. it was also in the christain bible (not a new quranic invention)

2. it is not 100 percent accurate because the crust is never stable. it is in constant motion. thus, mountain as peg stabilising the crust is a fallacy

3. thee verse is vague. what does it mean by stability. what does the peg mean. it is not self explanatory unless we read our meaning into it. we all know that peg is something driven into the ground from the surface. mountain are not formed that way

We are not yet done

Now you are one going against your own rules and trying to twist narrative to suit your position.

The verse states that:

Wal Jibala awtaddan (And the mountains as pegs)

The preceding verse states that:

"And we have made the earth as a resting place"

Connect the two and figure it out


On the contentious issue of a what a peg is, a peg isn't necessarily driven from the top downward. Whether driven from top downward or down upward, the purpose is what makes it a peg.

According to my we dictionary definition, a peg is a wood, metal or material used to hold or fasten things

Xmuslim:


I understand we may not want to agree since we have our biases

but try to read between the lines. What does peg means. how does peg relate to mountain formation (zero correlation)

talking about mythology. islam also belive that earthquake is a result of allah anger. what do you say about that?

Educate yourself with this to identify the correlations between mountains formations and peg


https://www.google.com/url?q=http://geoscience.wisc.edu/~chuck/Classes/Mtn_and_Plates/mtn_roots.html&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiyhuXZyOPrAhUD_aQKHeCcAyEQFjAJegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1br0Im2U3AucvQVjTdmeuh


Mountains have bouyant roots downward that correspond to the surface heights

Aegerine:





We are not yet done

Now you are one going against your own rules and trying to twist narrative to suit your position.

The verse states that:

Wal Jibala awtaddan (And the mountains as pegs)

The preceding verse states that:

"And we have made the earth as a resting place"

Connect the two and figure it out


On the contentious issue of a what a peg is, a peg isn't necessarily driven from the top downward. Whether driven from top downward or down upward, the purpose is what makes it a peg.

According to my we dictionary definition, a peg is a wood, metal or material used to hold or fasten things

well I dont know the rule I have broken. but the fact is you know that mountain is not a peg. it is not driven on to the earth like you use a nail or other stuff to hold stuff together.

secondly, the purpose of mountain as claimed by you is the meaning you read into the quran. The crust is moving and earthqauake keep occuring at the plate boundaries. so the permanent stabiity you claim is a fallacy.

a scientific claim has to be self explanatory in the quran, it must not be vague. you must not read your own meaning into it

@Aegerine let me ask you a question. can you use a peg to fasten a solid and liquid together?

Xmuslim:
still on the meaning of PEG. if you drive a peg into something, will the peg move and will it float? peg will be in position (no movement).

Are mountain moving? you are a geologist you know the answer to this. the verse you quoted is too vague my friend

can you answer this as a geologist?

if mountain is in constant motion, is it suitable to term it a PEG?

The Qur'an states that mountains act as pegs. It didn't state that sent down as peg.

The purpose is what defines it as a peg or not.

What is the role of pegs.

What roles do play mountains in holding the crust in position. You talk about the movement of the crust resulting in earthquakes in some cases. Yes that is true. It would have been much more severe than that if not the mountains holding the crust in position preventing it from floating above the mantle.


Go and revise the principle of isostacy.

@Aegerine also check the tafseer ibn kathir. the author claimed that the mountain as PEF prevent earthquake. is it correct as a geologist with the knowledge of the mountains in the ring of fire and the multiple earthquakes. AGAIN DONT READ YOUR MEANING TO THE VERSE. CHECK WHAT MUHAMMAD AND THE EARLY MUSLIMS BELIEVE THE VERSE MEAN

Xmuslim:
can you answer this as a geologist?

if mountain is in constant motion, is it suitable to term it a PEG?

Mountains are in motion due to the thrust and reverse movements within the lithosphere

Your view of what a peg is the problem.


What is purpose of a peg?
Are mountains serving those purposes or not?

Aegerine:
The Qur'an states that mountains act as pegs. It didn't state that sent down as peg.

The purpose is what defines it as a peg or not.

What is the role of pegs.

What roles do play mountains in holding the crust in position. You talk about the movement of the crust resulting in earthquakes in some cases. Yes that is true. It would have been much more severe than that if not the mountains holding the crust in position preventing it from floating above the mantle.


Go and revise the principle of isostacy.

TALKING of isostacy. dont you know that mountain is not always required for crust stabiliity in the principle of isostacy?

Again, I dont like back and forth on the same point. I have noted your point and audience have seen my point too. let them decide and let us move on. PEG is a wrong term . a creator of the unverser should have known what best term to use. THE VERSE IS VAGUE. YOU ONLY READ YOUR MEANING INTO IT.

It seems scientific, no objection. nut it is not 100% correct

Definitely no.
You cannot fasten a solid to liquid with a peg.
What's your point