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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Islam for Muslims / Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an (1127 Views)
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Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 8:40am On Sep 12, 2020 |
Aegerine discussing geologic verses with xmuslim |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 8:44am On Sep 12, 2020 |
I would like us to define our approach/methology first. My proposal. For a verse to be considered a scientific fact. It must pass these tests. 1. No civilization ever mentioned it before Qur'an 2. Muhammad never travel to any civilization that says similar thing in the past 3. It must be explicit (self explanatory) and not generic 4. Early scholars must interpret it to mean what we're infering What do you think about this proposal. Any ammendment? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Aegerine: 9:54am On Sep 12, 2020 |
Xmuslim: I pray that this proof beneficial to you, me and every other observers. Your proposal is fine to work with Which verse shall we start with ? I suggest Qur'an 78 vs 7 |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 10:10am On Sep 12, 2020 |
Aegerine:I didn't forget the evidence you requested yesterday. I think I've once quoted on nairaland but I will find it. Just kinda busy ni. |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 10:22am On Sep 12, 2020 |
And the mountain as peg. The verse you quoted. It is in agreement with our understanding of today's geology. However, it is not 100% correct. Although civilization before Muhammad know about this phenomenon (reference coming). Mountains are formed due to the eruption of magma usually at convergent plate boundary. These mountain stabilise the crust temporarily (thousands or millions of years) until the mountain develops faults and other structures that may lead to another earthquake especially if it is close to the plate boundary. My points here are two 1. Civilization knew this before Muhammad 2. It is not 100% correct that mountain stabilise the crust permanently as suggested by the verse quoted |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Aegerine: 10:23am On Sep 12, 2020 |
Xmuslim: OK.. I will be waiting |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Aegerine: 10:46am On Sep 12, 2020 |
Xmuslim: When the Qur'an refers to mountains as pegs, it is not just talking about an individual mountains in solitary, but rather all the entire networks of mountains that define the architecture of the earth's surface.. Therefore, the Idea of the loss in stability of the earth surface due to the wearing off of an individual mountain is inconsistent with logical reasoning. Mountains are the greatest illustrations of stability on the face of the earth. How then could it be possible that the destruction of a mountain which is equally been cancelled by the formations of others can translate to mean temporary stability. The stability referred to in that verse is permanent till the day that Allah decide to overturn this earth. That is the reason why the crust is still stable beneath you till this point despite is thinness relative to the mantle and core combined. Which civilization spoke about it before the revelations? I want to learn pls. As a geologist, I am aware that it takes the development of sophisticated geophysical techniques few decades ago to understand the concept of mountain roots which that verse and other similar verses were giving hints about centuries ago. Your two objections successfully debunked 4 Likes |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by motayoayinde: 11:01am On Sep 12, 2020 |
Aegerine: THE BIGGEST STABILIZING ENTITY OF OUR PLANET IS A SYSTEM OF MOUNTAINS BENEATH THE OCEAN. IT'S CALLED THE MID RIDGE MOUNTAIN SYSTEM. IT RUNS FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF KILOMETRES ACROSS DIFFERENT CONTINENTS. I'M NO GEOLOGIST, JUST HERE TO SUPPORT MY BROTHER. 1 Like |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 11:22am On Sep 12, 2020 |
Aegerine:any evidencet from islamic tradition to support this claim? i want us to be as honest as possible. I dont care if there is a verse that support geological phenomenom, but lets stick y to our methodology without reading our own meaning into the quran. perhaps you may quote the tafsir of the verse to support your claim |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 11:28am On Sep 12, 2020 |
motayoayinde:dont start I support bla bla stuff on this thread. we are here to educate ourselves irrespective of what you belive. I know no one is free from biase, but try to minimise it |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 11:32am On Sep 12, 2020 |
Aegerine:what do you mean by the stability of the crust? kindly define what stability mean inthis context |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by motayoayinde: 11:44am On Sep 12, 2020 |
Xmuslim: DON'T QUARREL, STATE YOUR FACTS. |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 11:51am On Sep 12, 2020 |
Aegerine: christian bible came before quran. check out these verses that mention similar thing Psalm 18:7 The earth trembled and quaked, and the foundations of the mountains shook; they trembled because he was angry. Job 28:9 : People assault the flinty rock with their hands and lay bare the roots of the mountains. I also read some stuff about greek or roman civilization regarding this issue and the issue of earth and heaven being together before they were splitted. unfortunatrly I can;t see the reference at the moment so we can coencentrate on the one I gave from the bible. Muslim argument regarding similarity in the bible is not unknown. ALLAH also reveal the bible so anything that is similar is because it is from the same author but anyting difference is because of the curruption of the bible. I disagree with this. However, let us concentrate on the validity of the meaning of the verse. whether tafseer and hadith infer the meaning you are giving to the verse[. and whether it is actually inline with the modern geological understanding |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 11:53am On Sep 12, 2020 |
I am investing my time on this thread the same way I did on the thread titled why I left islam which was later removed by unknown moderator. I would not be happy if any moderator remove this thread too. I dont know why such moderator is so insecure about his religion |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Aegerine: 12:09pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Xmuslim: The word used in that the verse is "Jibala" which is the plural form of mountain. (mountains). "Jabal" is the singular (mountain). Therefore you are one bringing in your own understanding of weathering which does not apply in this context. I have no need of delving into tafsir to understand a basic concept as this. In the light of this, what you quoted stand valid still |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 12:26pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Aegerine:Well, whether mountains or mountain. it is still clear the verse is talking about the mountain as peg which may be translated as somthing that stabilise something. but crust is never stable na. it is in constant motion and vulnerable to earthquake depending on the region. we can argue what peg also mean. does it mean mountain are sent down as peg (based on the linguistic meaning of the peg). I dont want to drag it too much. I understand that we both have our biases and your wish will be to prove that quran support the geologic fact. but we cant read our meaning to a vague verse. anyway, bring another verse, let's move on |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 12:29pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
what I have proven on this first verse quoted 1. it was also in the christain bible (not a new quranic invention) 2. it is not 100 percent accurate because the crust is never stable. it is in constant motion. thus, mountain as peg stabilising the crust is a fallacy 3. thee verse is vague. what does it mean by stability. what does the peg mean. it is not self explanatory unless we read our meaning into it. we all know that peg is something driven into the ground from the surface. mountain are not formed that way 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Aegerine: 12:33pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Xmuslim: Are you trying to equate all those metaporical excerpts from the bible to an undisputable statement of fact in the Qur'an. Are those the civilizations that you are referring to? The Qur'an referred to the mountains as pegs on the earth's surface giving it stability in many of its verses, and it takes modern geology over a millennium to discover that, and you are trying to equate that fact with an observe quaking and trembling of the earth which ancient mythologies have already tied to the anger of some gods. 1 Like |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 12:43pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Aegerine:I told you I cant find the reference at the moment, so I withdrew the claim |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 12:45pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Aegerine: I understand we may not want to agree since we have our biases but try to read between the lines. What does peg means. how does peg relate to mountain formation (zero correlation) talking about mythology. islam also belive that earthquake is a result of allah anger. what do you say about that? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 12:47pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Aegerine:the same way you read meaning into quran, christian can read same meaning to those verses. who define metaphorical and non metaphorical bible verses. what is your criteria 2 Likes |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 12:55pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
still on the meaning of PEG. if you drive a peg into something, will the peg move and will it float? peg will be in position (no movement). Are mountain moving? you are a geologist you know the answer to this. the verse you quoted is too vague my friend |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Aegerine: 12:56pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Xmuslim: We are not yet done Now you are one going against your own rules and trying to twist narrative to suit your position. The verse states that: Wal Jibala awtaddan (And the mountains as pegs) The preceding verse states that: "And we have made the earth as a resting place" Connect the two and figure it out On the contentious issue of a what a peg is, a peg isn't necessarily driven from the top downward. Whether driven from top downward or down upward, the purpose is what makes it a peg. According to my we dictionary definition, a peg is a wood, metal or material used to hold or fasten things |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Aegerine: 1:05pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Xmuslim: Educate yourself with this to identify the correlations between mountains formations and peg https://www.google.com/url?q=http://geoscience.wisc.edu/~chuck/Classes/Mtn_and_Plates/mtn_roots.html&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiyhuXZyOPrAhUD_aQKHeCcAyEQFjAJegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1br0Im2U3AucvQVjTdmeuh Mountains have bouyant roots downward that correspond to the surface heights |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 1:09pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Aegerine:well I dont know the rule I have broken. but the fact is you know that mountain is not a peg. it is not driven on to the earth like you use a nail or other stuff to hold stuff together. secondly, the purpose of mountain as claimed by you is the meaning you read into the quran. The crust is moving and earthqauake keep occuring at the plate boundaries. so the permanent stabiity you claim is a fallacy. a scientific claim has to be self explanatory in the quran, it must not be vague. you must not read your own meaning into it |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 1:11pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
@Aegerine let me ask you a question. can you use a peg to fasten a solid and liquid together? |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 1:13pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Xmuslim:can you answer this as a geologist? if mountain is in constant motion, is it suitable to term it a PEG? |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Aegerine: 1:13pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
The Qur'an states that mountains act as pegs. It didn't state that sent down as peg. The purpose is what defines it as a peg or not. What is the role of pegs. What roles do play mountains in holding the crust in position. You talk about the movement of the crust resulting in earthquakes in some cases. Yes that is true. It would have been much more severe than that if not the mountains holding the crust in position preventing it from floating above the mantle. Go and revise the principle of isostacy. 1 Like |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 1:18pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
@Aegerine also check the tafseer ibn kathir. the author claimed that the mountain as PEF prevent earthquake. is it correct as a geologist with the knowledge of the mountains in the ring of fire and the multiple earthquakes. AGAIN DONT READ YOUR MEANING TO THE VERSE. CHECK WHAT MUHAMMAD AND THE EARLY MUSLIMS BELIEVE THE VERSE MEAN |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Aegerine: 1:21pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Xmuslim: Mountains are in motion due to the thrust and reverse movements within the lithosphere Your view of what a peg is the problem. What is purpose of a peg? Are mountains serving those purposes or not? |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Xmuslim: 1:22pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Aegerine:TALKING of isostacy. dont you know that mountain is not always required for crust stabiliity in the principle of isostacy? Again, I dont like back and forth on the same point. I have noted your point and audience have seen my point too. let them decide and let us move on. PEG is a wrong term . a creator of the unverser should have known what best term to use. THE VERSE IS VAGUE. YOU ONLY READ YOUR MEANING INTO IT. It seems scientific, no objection. nut it is not 100% correct |
Re: Two Geologist Discussing Geological Verses Of The Qur'an by Aegerine: 1:22pm On Sep 12, 2020 |
Definitely no. You cannot fasten a solid to liquid with a peg. What's your point 1 Like |
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