Ibime:



That's why I went for Silva cos he's the only one that was able to adapt. The other 3 are relics of a previous era, unable to adapt to changing tactics and formations. Mata was also the least adaptable and does not belong in this conversation.

Fabregas was too fragile defensively, yet too slow to join the attack and keep up with his strikers effectively when we reached the 2010 decade. He neither fit in AM, CM nor DM and posed a tactical weakness in each position that unbalanced the teams he played for.

Mata was too physically weak and slow and disappeared with the obsolescence of the no10 position, also posing a tactical weakness even when in his prime. He was good in small games but disappeared and was overrun in big games, putting much pressure on his midfield partners to cover his gaps.

Ozil held on for longer but was also made obsolete by no10 position disappearing. Silva was able to transition from left-wing to AM to CM effectively and was never a carryalong or tactical hindrance at any point in his career. And I don't particularly think Silva had more physicality to adapt than the others, he just had more intelligence and desire.

your being harsh on Fab, besides Silva benefitted from the fact he was in a new upcoming big club and had consistency in management especially with the quality of players he had around him. Imagine you saying Fabregas was slow in joining attack, players slow down with age, lets say because he didn't have to join attack. Did you watch him when he played SS in barca and Spain. What u will say he was not a gra gra player. Speed is hardly the game of people who play centrally

Mata was not physically weak or slow. Maybe because i have long term memory that some things fans say shock me. It not like you were happy when Mata was sold. I am sure Mourinhi said the BS about KDB and Salah's physicality. Mata went to Manu and faded simple, a bad year that didn't get better

maybe Ozil lost motivation in arsenal but from wenger's time to Mourinho to German for years before 2017/16 Ozil's ability to spot a pass with such precision only Fabregas,Pirlo and may KDB can match it.

I noticed Silva hasn't been in a defensively weak team, man city nor Spain, i doubt Valencia were weak defensively.

be like say u get preference for players like Ramirez

pamcode:
There is a question I would like to ask, it has been coming up on Twitter a lot this days. Based on their prime and overall careeer between Kaka and Muller, Ronaldinho and Neymar who is the better player.

Cc Ibime Nihilistjnr Pkasso Roland17 Raumdeuter Unlimited22 Popizaino. And others I didn't mention pls comment.

For overall career, I go with muller for his longetivity,but as for prime it has to be kaka.
Prime kaka never had any deficiency,he could practically do everything with the ball and was also an undisputed world best during his peak,won the ucl with ac Milan as the stand out player.



Numbers! Numbers!! Numbers! !! I hate it

Ronaldinho aside been a better player.Watching him felt like magic. Watch his nutmeg on Dunga at gremio. His mesmerizing skills were unmatched by any player not even robinho.

pamcode:
There is a question I would like to ask, it has been coming up on Twitter a lot this days. Based on their prime and overall careeer between Kaka and Muller, Ronaldinho and Neymar who is the better player.

Cc Ibime Nihilistjnr Pkasso Roland17 Raumdeuter Unlimited22 Popizaino. And others I didn't mention pls comment.

is that Thomas Muller? Neymar never finish him career likewise Thomas muller.

the question should be between Ronaldinho and Kaka and I will pick Kaka

pamcode:
I actually grouped them as a duo. As in who is better between Kaka and Mueller. Also Ronaldinho and Neymar.

Muller over Kaka
Neymar over Ronaldinho

popizaino:


For overall career, I go with muller for his longetivity,but as for prime it has to be kaka.
Prime kaka never had any deficiency,he could practically do everything with the ball and was also an undisputed world best during his peak,won the ucl with ac Milan as the stand out player.



Numbers! Numbers!! Numbers! !! I hate it

Ronaldinho aside been a better player.Watching him felt like magic. Watch his nutmeg on Dunga at gremio. His mesmerizing skills were unmatched by any player not even robinho.

All these are Romanticism which means nothing when comparing players . You probably also rank Okocha as Nigeria greatest player .

I rate a player based on effectiveness, not weakness. Every player has a weakness.

While Fabregas was a liability defensively, he was highly effective in creating goals.A managers job is to create the right balance by maximizing the strength of his players and also accommodate their weaknesses.

As for Ozil -- player that showed serious signs of decline at the age of 29 --, I don't really rate him that high. Ozil only won reasonable trophies in teams he was fortunate enough to play in: Germany, Madrid.

So, to Ibime who thinks fab was a weak link, I am interested to know what you think of Pogba who doesn't have obvious weaknesses but highly ineffective.

Melvyn11:

All those are nostalgic voters. Stat wise Henry was miles ahead of Ronaldinho.

How are they nostalgic vote when it was happening presently and Ronaldinho was newer on the scene than Henry

Ronaldinho 2005 Ballon D'or win is one of the most dominant of all time. Henry only got two votes which must be sympathy votes from France and Martinique

Ibime:


How are they nostalgic vote when it was happening presently and Ronaldinho was newer on the scene than Henry

Ronaldinho 2005 Ballon D'or win is one of the most dominant of all time. Henry only got two votes which must be sympathy votes from France and Martinique

Bring the stats let's see who was performing on the field from 2004 to 2006/07. Everyone was fascinated by Ronaldinho fancy tricks and flicks.

swiz123:
I rate a player based on effectiveness, not weakness. Every player has a weakness.

While Fabregas was a liability defensively, he was highly effective in creating goals.A managers job is to create the right balance by maximizing the strength of his players and also accommodate their weaknesses.

As for Ozil -- player that showed serious signs of decline at the age of 29 --, I don't really rate him that high. Ozil only won reasonable trophies in teams he was fortunate enough to play in: Germany, Madrid.

So, to Ibime who thinks fab was a weak link, I am interested to know what you think of Pogba who doesn't have obvious weaknesses but highly ineffective.

Pogba has many weaknesses including jogging, lack of fitness, not following players and dwelling on the ball too long.

I do judge players on their weakness because those weaknesses cost the team points and do not allow the team to consistently challenge. That's why you can talk of Fabregas in comparison to other generational talents, yet he was chopping bench because the managers of his team's cannot accommodate such weakness in team structure.

It is not managers job to accomodate weakness when the weakness is too glaring to be accommodated and can cost the manager his job. Same reason Mata's weakness is not accomodated, nor Ozil. Every player has a role to play in modern football. There are no passengers.

BlueAngel444:


Mata was not physically weak or slow. Maybe because i have long term memory that some things fans say shock me. It not like you were happy when Mata was sold. I am sure Mourinhi said the BS about KDB and Salah's physicality. Mata went to Manu and faded simple, a bad year that didn't get better

Yes he was. He has the body of a 12 year old boy. Yes I did persecute Mata and I did argue for his sale on these very pages which caused a big brouhaha back then and I was proved right. Mata was a passenger for Chelsea in big games due to his lack of physicality. He only pad stats in the small games and disappeared in the big games. That's why we don't talk of Mata in UCL run of 2012 cos he was a liability and often dragged off early for Kalou at which point his wing would stop being overloaded. On the contrary, I was one of the biggest promoters of KDB cos I saw his vision with no weakness in him.

BlueAngel444:

be lie say u get preference for players like Ramirez

You can ask around. I was the biggest persecutor of Ramires on this thread. I don't accomodate weakness in any player whether technical or physical and Ramires was a technical liability, always giving the ball away by trying to run with it through the centre of midfield, with an atrocious first touch and lacking the simple midfield basics of trapping the ball, turning and passing to a teammate.

BlueAngel444:
your being harsh on Fab, besides Silva benefitted from the fact he was in a new upcoming big club and had consistency in management especially with the quality of players he had around him. Imagine you saying Fabregas was slow in joining attack, players slow down with age, lets say because he didn't have to join attack. Did you watch him when he played SS in barca and Spain. What u will say he was not a gra gra player. Speed is hardly the game of people who play centrally

Fabregas slowness has nothing to do with age. He was still in his late twenties when he came to Chelsea. An AM does not need to be fast, but he cannot be a snail. Only when you literally walk the ball into the opponent box like Spain, Barca and Arsenal can you talk of Fabregas being an AM.

When football changed, he was left behind, lacking the ability to play effectively in either a high pressing or counterattacking team.

He had glaring deficiency whether in AM, CM or DM and no serious competitive team can accomodate that long term which is why he was chased to the bench for years and finally chased to Monaco who would also like to chase him if they could find a buyer.

Ibime:


Pogba has many weaknesses including jogging, lack of fitness, not following players and dwelling on the ball too long.

I do judge players on their weakness because those weaknesses cost the team points and do not allow the team to consistently challenge. That's why you can talk of Fabregas in comparison to other generational talents, yet he was chopping bench because the managers of his team's cannot accommodate such weakness in team structure.

It is not managers job to accomodate weakness when the weakness is too glaring to be accommodated and can cost the manager his job. Same reason Mata's weakness is not accomodated, nor Ozil. Every player has a role to play in modern football. There are no passengers.

Kante also has many weaknesses bordering on lack of control, precision passing, dribbling, poor judgement, shooting etc yet he is highly effective in his preferred position.

Going by your analyses, first eleven players like Jorginho, Busquet, Pirlo are/were all carry alongs which only slowed the team down.

swiz123:


Kante also has many weaknesses bordering on lack of control, precision passing, dribbling, poor judgement, shooting etc yet he is highly effective in his preferred position.

Going by your analyses, first eleven players like Jorginho, Busquet, Pirlo are/were all carry alongs which only slowed the team down.

Kante does not pose structural weakness. His passing and control is at least 6/10. Shooting is irrelevant in his position. Ramires passing and control was 2/10 which is what made him a weakness. You only need 5/10 in any trait to be acceptable within a team framework and Kante has that in every trait related to his position.

When you have speed of 1/10 like Fabregas then you pose structural weakness. You may as well be a cardboard cutout on the pitch in defensive situations.

Busquet, Jorginho are all weaknesses. Pirlo had 3 centrebacks behind him and 2 DMs in front of him, otherwise he would also pose a weakness.

pamcode:
There is a question I would like to ask, it has been coming up on Twitter a lot this days. Based on their prime and overall careeer between Kaka and Muller, Ronaldinho and Neymar who is the better player.

Cc Ibime Nihilistjnr Pkasso Roland17 Raumdeuter Unlimited22 Popizaino. And others I didn't mention pls comment.

Ronaldinho's peak was short but untouchable please.


Likewise Kaka.
Muller and Neymar both have the advantage of longevity

Ibime:


Kante does not pose structural weakness. His passing and control is at least 6/10. Shooting is irrelevant in his position. Ramires passing and control was 2/10 which is what made him a weakness. You only need 5/10 in any trait to be acceptable within a team framework and Kante has that in every trait related to his position.

When you have speed of 1/10 like Fabregas then you pose structural weakness. You may as well be a cardboard cutout on the pitch in defensive situations.

Busquet, Jorginho are all weaknesses. Pirlo had 3 centrebacks behind him and 2 DMs in front of him, otherwise he would also pose a weakness.

Why then do you Jorgs and Busquet always make the First Eleven since their weakness cannot be accomodated?

According to you, lack of pace equates structural weakness.

swiz123:


Kante also has many weaknesses bordering on lack of control, precision passing, dribbling, poor judgement, shooting etc yet he is highly effective in his preferred position.

Going by your analyses, first eleven players like Jorginho, Busquet, Pirlo are/were all carry alongs which only slowed the team down.

There is a reason Pirlo had Seedorf, Gattuso and Ambrosini around him at Milan, and Vidal and Pogba and Marchisio at Juve.

Escortinho is Escortinho, and Busquets cannot play DM in any team that isn't Barcelona. Even now that Xavi and Iniesta are no longer there his decline has been sharp

Unlimited22:

There is a reason Pirlo had Seedorf, Gattuso and Ambrosini around him at Milan, and Vidal and Pogba and Marchisio at Juve.

Escortinho is Escortinho, and Busquets cannot play DM in any team that isn't Barcelona. Even now that Xavi and Iniesta are no longer there his decline has been sharp

Does that make managers of the latter teams morons for sticking with those two?

swiz123:


Does that make managers of the latter teams morons for sticking with those two?

No, it simply means they knew how to accommodate such players and even then it didn't work every time.

swiz123:


Why then do you Jorgs and Busquet always make the First Eleven since their weakness cannot be accomodated?

That's their teams business and their teams are the ones suffering for it, getting hammered 8-2, 6-0 and the likes in tough games.

swiz123:


Does that make managers of the latter teams morons for sticking with those two?

No because these players are difficult to move on financially. If Lampard could find a buyer, Jorginho would be out of here. Until then, they just do their best to work around those players weaknesses, often dropping them when water done pass garri.

swiz123:
I rate a player based on effectiveness, not weakness. Every player has a weakness.

While Fabregas was a liability defensively, he was highly effective in creating goals.A managers job is to create the right balance by maximizing the strength of his players and also accommodate their weaknesses.

As for Ozil -- player that showed serious signs of decline at the age of 29 --, I don't really rate him that high. Ozil only won reasonable trophies in teams he was fortunate enough to play in: Germany, Madrid.

So, to Ibime who thinks fab was a weak link, I am interested to know what you think of Pogba who doesn't have obvious weaknesses but highly ineffective.

That is all.


Let me give you an instance to further buttress your point .There was this match we won by a lone at westham during one of our late title winning seasons. The match wasn't tension Packed because we dominated from start to finish.we scored very early in the game but couldn't add more due to poor finishes from our attackers.As usual fabregas created several clear scoring chances for dufos like hazard and willian that they ended up making a mess of it. mind you an old crippled granny would put most of these chances pass the goal keeper. Now imagine if westham had gotten a corner at the very last kick of the game and went ahead to equalize,ibime would have come here to blame fabregas even if the goal was from a lucky corner kick citing how he was escorting from the midfield to lead to corner.

popizaino:


That is all.


Let me give you an instance to further buttress your point .There was this match we won by a lone at westham during one of our late title winning seasons. The match wasn't tension Packed because we dominated from start to finish.we scored very early in the game but couldn't add more due to poor finishes from our attackers.As usual fabregas created several clear scoring chances for dufos like hazard and willian that they ended up making a mess of it. mind you an old crippled granny would put most of these chances pass the goal keeper. Now imagine if westham had gotten a corner at the very last kick of the game and went ahead to equalize,ibime would have come here to blame fabregas even if the goal was from a lucky corner kick citing how he was escorting from the midfield to lead to corner.

That is because to him, aggressiveness means effectiveness.

I wouldn't be surprised if he rates Bakayoko ahead of Fabregas. Havertz is already been court marshalled by him for failing to have Bakayoko-like qualities.

One thing Ibime has failed to see is that some players have more specified dutie.

Lionel Messi is doesn't press in order to conserve energy for attacking.

Thiago Silva is made to stay deeper than Zouma due to lack of pace, and to provide more leadership in the backline by pointing defenders to cover vital positions.

Fabregas and Ozil are used because of their creativity, not pressing.

The former's return of 111 premier league assist proves his effectiveness. This is fact, Ibime can only make and sell his opinion.

popizaino:


That is all.


Let me give you an instance to further buttress your point .There was this match we won by a lone at westham during one of our late title winning seasons. The match wasn't tension Packed because we dominated from start to finish.we scored very early in the game but couldn't add more due to poor finishes from our attackers.As usual fabregas created several clear scoring chances for dufos like hazard and willian that they ended up making a mess of it. mind you an old crippled granny would put most of these chances pass the goal keeper. Now imagine if westham had gotten a corner at the very last kick of the game and went ahead to equalize,ibime would have come here to blame fabregas even if the goal was from a lucky corner kick citing how he was escorting from the midfield to lead to corner.

Nonsense. In a title chasing team, we don't talk about specific games. When we talk of players like Fabregas, we talk of inconsistency and inability to compete consistently in big games. The same Fabregas who may dominate West Ham in that game could escort Bournemouth within the next 3 games, or be unable to get hold of the ball against a big team in another game. What we want for Chelsea is that our midfield is competitive in every game, not playing lottery from one game to another. How are you different from those who come to praise Jorginho after his good games, knowing he will still escort and be a liability at another game down the line.

swiz123:


That is because to him, aggressiveness means effectiveness.

I wouldn't be surprised if he rates Bakayoko ahead of Fabregas. Havertz is already been court marshalled by him for failing to have Bakayoko-like qualities.

Once again, you don't know who you are talking about. Maybe you are new here. You can ask around who persecuted Bakayoko the most on this thread. I even staked $100 on Bakayoko being a flop. I do not accomodate weakness whether physical or technical.

Ibime:


Nonsense. In a title chasing team, we don't talk about specific games. When we talk of players like Fabregas, we talk of inconsistency and inability to compete consistently in big games. The same Fabregas who may dominate West Ham in that game could escort Bournemouth within the next 3 games, or be unable to get hold of the ball against a big team in another game. What we want for Chelsea is that our midfield is competitive in every game, not playing lottery from one game to another. How are you different from those who come to praise Jorginho after his good games, knowing he will still escort and be a liability at another game down the line.

Jorginho isn't and will never be as effective as Fabregas.

swiz123:


Jorginho is and will never be as effective as Fabregas.

In assists no, but they are both the same escort in their primary work of deep lying midfield

Ibime:


Once again, you don't know who you are talking about. Maybe you are new here. You can ask around who persecuted Bakayoko the most on this thread. I even staked $100 on Bakayoko being a flop. I do not accomodate weakness whether physical or technical.

Why then do you accommodate Kante for his technical weakness?

I don't want to smell hypocrisy

swiz123:


Why then do you accommodate Kante for his technical weakness?

I don't want to smell hypocrisy

Kante has no glaring technical weakness in his position as I stated earlier

Ibime:


No because these players are difficult to move on financially. If Lampard could find a buyer, Jorginho would be out of here. Until then, they just do their best to work around those players weaknesses, often dropping them when water done pass garri.

honestly i dont know what they see in that jorginho.
the only thing man will be needed to do for the team when gilmour is back is bask in gilmour's glory.
he had a good match against c.palace maybe because palace dont have runners in their midfield, but against rennes and southampton he was exposed allowing them chances.

Ibime:


Kante has no glaring technical weakness in his position as I stated earlier

As a CENTRAL midfielder, he lacks PRECISION passing which is a reason why he rarely plays key passes.

He lacks the elite composure required of a CM which makes them absorb pressure better.

His lack of ball control is glaring.

Just as Fabregas once rightly opined, physically gifted players are favoured in today's football than the technically gifted.

swiz123:


As a CENTRAL midfielder, he lacks PRECISION passing which is a reason why he rarely plays key passes.

He lacks the elite composure required of a CM which makes them absorb pressure better.

His lack of ball control is glaring.

Just as Fabregas once rightly opined, physically gifted players are favoured in today's football than the technically gifted.

Well that's your opinion. Makelele also lacked what you may describe as precision passing but is the best DM in the clubs history. Maybe you want a Fabregas in your DM position but Kantes technical skill is more than adequate for the position and that is borne out both in his volume of passes and accuracy of passes when he plays there. I don't need a 9/10 passer in that position - a 6/10 passer with good defensive skill is hundred times better than a 9/10 passer with no defensive skill in that position. My opinion is below.

Ibime:


Kante does not pose structural weakness. His passing and control is at least 6/10. Shooting is irrelevant in his position. Ramires passing and control was 2/10 which is what made him a weakness. You only need 5/10 in any trait to be acceptable within a team framework and Kante has that in every trait related to his position.

Sulele04:

honestly i dont know what they see in that jorginho.
the only thing man will be needed to do for the team when gilmour is back is bask in gilmour's glory.
he had a good match against c.palace maybe because palace dont have runners in their midfield, but against rennes and southampton he was exposed allowing them chances.

I fear Gilmour is currently being slightly overrated. How many good games has he had? 2 games? Liverpool and Everton...

The disaster class he dropped after the Covid 19 break is still fresh in memory; and I remember most people agreeing that he wasn't ready.

He is a kid who shouldn't be overburdened with this kind of attention, lest we see another CHO.