timbros:
Numbers don't tell the whole story.

Assists is not down to the passer of the ball entirely. The striker recieving the pass have a lot of say whether that pass will be counted an assist or not.

Play 20 passes to C. Ronaldo and play the same 20 passes to Adebayo in the same exact way by the same person.... Will the number of assists be same in both scenarios? Your guess is as good as mine.

Ozil had C. Ronaldo in front.

Silva had Aguero in front.

Cesc had Adebayo in front.

Numbers don't tell the whole story. Enuff said.

He didn't play with Henry and Van Persie at all.


No o. It was only Adebayor he played with all through. The same Adebayor who also had a 20-goal season.

Ozil at Arsenal topped assist chart with striking phenomena and greats like Olivier Giroud, Joel Campbell and Danny Welbeck.

But go off mate, numbers obviously don't tell the whole story.

Unlimited22:

He didn't play with Henry and Van Persie at all.


No o. It was only Adebayor he played with all through. The same Adebayor who also had a 20-goal season.

When they want to make their case they ignore the relevance and challenges of the other player and spotlight the effectiveness of theirs.

Ozil was integral in Madrid and dominated the La Liga for more than 3 seasons..Fab was surplus and could barely make the team and no one remembers that poorly advised sojourn.

Fab played with Costa, Henry, Van Persie and Adebayo all in their prime!!

Who did Ozil play with at Arsenal? Make dem tell me.. yet he dominated the assist charts. Ozil at Arsenal was not even Ozil’s prime but he still dominates Fab’s best season!

Ibime:



That's why I went for Silva cos he's the only one that was able to adapt. The other 3 are relics of a previous era, unable to adapt to changing tactics and formations. Mata was also the least adaptable and does not belong in this conversation.

Fabregas was too fragile defensively, yet too slow to join the attack and keep up with his strikers effectively when we reached the 2010 decade. He neither fit in AM, CM nor DM and posed a tactical weakness in each position that unbalanced the teams he played for.

Mata was too physically weak and slow and disappeared with the obsolescence of the no10 position, also posing a tactical weakness even when in his prime. He was good in small games but disappeared and was overrun in big games, putting much pressure on his midfield partners to cover his gaps.

Ozil held on for longer but was also made obsolete by no10 position disappearing. Silva was able to transition from left-wing to AM to CM effectively and was never a carryalong or tactical hindrance at any point in his career. And I don't particularly think Silva had more physicality to adapt than the others, he just had more intelligence and desire.

Silva, Fabregas Ozil and Mata in that order
But I have to put some context into it that Silva benefitted from playing in attacking sides, Under a Guardiola system that makes attacking players look better than what they really are

Silva in a Mourinho systems would have been destroyed the same way Mata was. because he would have been shunted to the wings and tasked with helping his full back. I have argued before that Mata was the Silva of his time before he ran into Mourinho and he never recovered from it

When Germany went defensive, they had to shift Ozil to the left-wing and he quickly became a liability, when you meet strong sides, Ozil as a 10 is easy to mark out, Ulli Hoeness said that Bayern always targetted Ozil whenever we play Arsenal and it never fails

Ozil probably is the most talented of them but and probably the laziest too

Unlimited22:

He didn't play with Henry and Van Persie at all.


No o. It was only Adebayor he played with all through. The same Adebayor who also had a 20-goal season.

Ozil at Arsenal topped assist chart with striking phenomena and greats like Olivier Giroud, Joel Campbell and Danny Welbeck.

But go off mate, numbers obviously don't tell the whole story.

The question is, in their prime, who will I get into my team.

I watched the 4 mentioned players. The good ol' eye test comes into play here, not some assist numbers. Which of them, as a 10, tops in vision, eye for pass in a tight spot, can split open defences both when counter attacking and when opposition sits deep, has both long range and short range pass ability? Cesc tops them all.

Little wonder it's only him out of the 4 players that have 'pass' coined to his name.

At some point in their career, they played against Chelsea as a bitter rival. Who among them do I dread facing? Cesc.

No amount of numbers will change what I watch.

Silva, Mata, and Ozil are all extra ordinary players. But for me, Cesc tops them all.

How Mata found his way to be among this discussion is a miracle in itself.

Roland17:


Baba rubbish! Cesc had prime D. Costa in front of him, Ozil had Welbeck, Giroud and other useless strikers and remained on top of the assist charts!

Numbers don’t lie! The stat below is the prime of Fabregas in terms of numbers, not even Ozil’s but keep an eye on the “Big Chance created” category where Ozil dwarfs him.

Are we talking prime Costa or prime Cesc? Was prime Cesc in Chelsea or Arsenal? Prime Ozil, was is Arsenal or Madrid? Why will you post Cesc 14/15 vs Ozil 15/16.?

Like I said earlier, numbers don't tell the whole story so don't even bother yourself showing me stats here and there. I watched both of them play and I know their style of play. I know their strengths and weaknesses.

Nevertheless, the two campaigns were both remarkable in their own right, but who did it better?

Well, simply put, [as far as the pair's rate of assists were concerned the figures are astonishingly similar. While Ozil registered one more (19) in 2015/16 than Fabregas the season previous (18), the German played more minutes, with their figures in terms of minutes per assist coming in at 160.6 for the Spain international and 160.5 for the Arsenal star.

That theme of Ozil marginally winning out remains consistent throughout the duo's creative stats in truth. He averaged 3.3 key passes per 90 minutes to Fabregas' 3, completed 12 accurate through balls to the Chelsea man's 11 and boasted a slightly superior pass accuracy to boot (86.3 per cent to 85.2 per cent).

In fact, the only creative category where there is a clear difference - and it's in Ozil's favour once more - is in terms of what Opta define as 'big chances created'. In that sense Fabregas' impressive tally of 16 was blown out of the water by the German's 28 the following season.

All in all, then, it's little wonder why it was Mesut Ozil that earned the higher WhoScored rating for his efforts in 2015/16 (7.66) than Fabregas in 2014/15 (7.62). Both players have subsequently and perhaps unsurprisingly failed to reach the same heights since, but will always have those remarkable stats to fall back on.

@Roland17 above is the article where you pulled out that image.

Even when we go by stats, Ozil registered 19 assists in 35 apps while Cesc registered 18 in 33 apps.
Please who is the better player here per 90?

Look at those bolded and tell me exactly why you are posting that image everywhere. Why are you making it look like Ozil blew Cesc outta the water when their overall rating were 7.66 against 7.62?

Skimpledawg:
How Mata found his way to be among this discussion is a miracle in itself.

Nah Mata's Prime was a banger too.

It's just that it was over in a flash. He ran into Mou in 2013 and it was never the same again.

And if we're going by the Raumdeuter metric of 1 UCL or WC >>>>>>>>> 1 billion league titles, Mata is the only one there with both medals.

timbros:


@Roland17 above is the article where you pulled out that image.

Even when we go by stats, Ozil registered 19 assists in 35 apps while Cesc registered 18 in 33 apps.
Please who is the better player here per 90?

Go back and read my first comment about this topic and you would see where I said both players are no scrubs and this is not a debate about apples and oranges. Meaning both players are legit superstars in their own right. For me it boils down to length of prime, numbers and relevance. So scratch that last paragraph.

The image contains stats that support my argument and debunks a lot of your claims. So please be careful not to imply I plagiarized the narrative/ article that came along the image because that would be totally false. Just saying..

33/1 is 34 appearances for Fab so he is short only 1 game but that does not offer much difference because he could have gone without registering an assist in that game, he could also have gone on to register 20 assists in that game right? Well, we will never know.

The data about key passes should be most important stat for anyone who understands how to read the data. Ozil beats him in every category in that image and more importantly, this is not even Ozil’s best season in his career.. Do you realize that?

Unlimited22:

Nah Mata's Prime was a banger too.

It's just that it was over in a flash. He ran into Mou in 2013 and it was never the same again.

And if we're going by the Ramdeuter metric of 1 UCL or WC >>>>>>>>> 1 billion league titles, Mata is the only one there with both medals.

You mean the world cup where Mata played a sum total of 20mins vs Honduras or the Euro cup where he played 3 mins as a time wasting sub in a 4-0 win

To win both World up and Euro, Spain played about 1250mins and Mata participated in 23 of those mins, he probably didnt even sweat

Make we no lie, Mata had as much influence in winning those trophies as those of us typing from Nairaland

Ibime:


Nonsense. In a title chasing team, we don't talk about specific games.

That is your own theory.There is no way a Chelsea fan won't talk about a specific game against Wigan in 2008 led by useless Anelka as the reason for losing the league title.There is no way an arsenal fan won't talk about the game at Birmingham that saw their title hope dash away.There is no way Liverpool fan won't talk about the game at crystal palace and the one against chelsea in 2013 that saw them losing the league. There is no way a man United fan won't refer to the game against US in 2010 to make a reference to their chances on the title.


[/quote]
When we talk of players like Fabregas, we talk of inconsistency and inability to compete consistently in big games. [/quote]

Pls tell me the big games because at his peak from 2006 - 2011 fabregas dominated big games from North London derbies to games against the very best like Chelsea,man United and Liverpool. He won several midfield battle against some of the very best in the game like Alonso,gerrard,scholes,lampard,Carrick, makalele.It's not a hidden secret that his arsenal team usually play us off the park but we always had drogba who always save us from disgrace .


I hate stats but I wouldn't you bringing them forward let's compare his stats to that of lampard in the so called big games.

[/quote]
The same Fabregas who may dominate West Ham in that game could escort Bournemouth within the next 3 games, or be unable to get hold of the ball against a big team in another game. What we want for Chelsea is that our midfield is competitive in every game, not playing lottery from one game to another. How are you different from those who come to praise Jorginho after his good games, knowing he will still escort and be a liability at another game down the line.

[/quote][/quote]

Bring stats let check

Roland17:


The image contains stats that support my argument and debunks a lot of your claims. So please be careful not to imply I plagiarized the narrative/ article that came along the image because that would be totally false. Just saying..

33/1 is 34 appearances for Fab so he is short only 1 game but that does not offer much difference because he could have gone without registering an assist in that game, he could also have gone on to register 20 assists in that game right? Well, we will never know.

The data about key passes should be most important stat for anyone who understands how to read the data. Ozil beats him in every category in that image and more importantly, this is not even Ozil’s best season in his career.. Do you realize that?

33(1) is still 33 appearances tho, that 1 is saying something about substitution, the number of times he came in as sub in the 33 apps

Roland17:


Go back and read my first comment about this topic and you would see where I said both players are no scrubs and this is not a debate about apples and oranges. Meaning both players are legit superstars in their own right. For me it boils down to length of prime, numbers and relevance. So scratch that last paragraph.

The image contains stats that support my argument and debunks a lot of your claims. So please be careful not to imply I plagiarized the narrative/ article that came along the image because that would be totally false. Just saying..

33/1 is 34 appearances for Fab so he is short only 1 game but that does not offer much difference because he could have gone without registering an assist in that game, he could also have gone on to register 20 assists in that game right? Well, we will never know.

The data about key passes should be most important stat for anyone who understands how to read the data. Ozil beats him in every category in that image and more importantly, this is not even Ozil’s best season in his career.. Do you realize that?

Cesc 33(1) apps translates to 2890 minutes of football while Ozil's 35 apps is actually 3048 minutes of football. That is 158 minutes difference.

Do you realise what can happen in 158 minutes of football?

Ibime:


In assists no, but they are both the same escort in their primary work of deep lying midfield

What do you mean by failed in their primary work
Is fabregas a DM, most of the stats he gathered were they from escorting and what business is he doing in deep lying midfield
The season he was effective with Costa was it from deep midfield, mourinho a fvcking defensive coach did he play him as a deep lying midfielder
Just say you don't like him

sleekdot:


You mean the world cup where Mata played a sum total of 20mins vs Honduras or the Euro cup where he played 3 mins as a time wasting sub

To win both World up and Euro, Spain played about 1250mins and Mata participated in 23 of those mins

Make we no lie, Mata had as much influence in winning those games as those of us typing from Nairaland

You don commit now now?!

Neobulletzz:

33(1) is still 33 appearances tho, that 1 is saying something about substitution, the number of times he came in as sub in the 33 apps

My bad! I did not include the sub appearance to the total number. I was isolating it in calculating the total. You are right.

timbros:


Cesc 33(1) apps translates to 2890 minutes of football while Ozil's 35 apps is actually 3048 minutes of football. That is 158 minutes difference.

Do you realise what can happen in 158 minutes of football?

He would have had 50 assists in 158 minutes or he could have scored an own goal, given a lame performance with 0 assists.. We will never know! We are going by what we know. By the way, why are you avoiding the other stats on that imagine?

Once again, can I remind you that is the prime of Fab in terms of numbers but not Ozil’s!

timbros:


You don commit now now?!

My enemies are plenty you know. And the thing I typed sef I cannot see anything bad in it
This is why I need Apostle Suleman to teleport my enemies from their homes to Awkuzu SARS detention

Roland17:


Baba rubbish! Cesc had prime D. Costa in front of him, Ozil had Welbeck, Giroud and other useless strikers and remained on top of the assist charts!

Numbers don’t lie! The stat below is the prime of Fabregas in terms of numbers, not even Ozil’s but keep an eye on the “Big Chance created” category where Ozil dwarfs him.

Fabregas prime was at arsenal. In did wonders when the league was tougher and during a period when man United had defenders like vidic,Brown,Ferdinand not fucking Jones or Rojo. He did it when he faced Chelsea side with Terry,cavalho,ashley cole not jokers like Luis and baba rahman. He did it facing robin savage,tuncay,campo,macherano,and the the jokers ozil had to face this days .

When the going gets tough it's only fabregas you can rely on to change the game with a single pass.


Fabregas to Costa vs city 16/17 facing Silva

Fabregas to Costa vs arsenal 14/15 facing ozil .

timbros:


The question is, in their prime, who will I get into my team.

I watched the 4 mentioned players. The good ol' eye test comes into play here, not some assist numbers. Which of them, as a 10, tops in vision, eye for pass in a tight spot, can split open defences both when counter attacking and when opposition sits deep, has both long range and short range pass ability? Cesc tops them all.

Little wonder it's only him out of the 4 players that have 'pass' coined to his name.

At some point in their career, they played against Chelsea as a bitter rival. Who among them do I dread facing? Cesc.

No amount of numbers will change what I watch.

Silva, Mata, and Ozil are all extra ordinary players. But for me, Cesc tops them all.

Sounded like a poem

Beautiful

Roland17:


He would have had 50 assists in 158 minutes or he could have scored an own goal, given a lame performance with 0 assists.. We will never know! We are going by what we know. By the way, why are you avoiding the other stats on that imagine?

Once again, can I remind you that is the prime of Fab in terms of numbers but not Ozil’s!

You see that bolded? That's the crux of the matter.

I don't pick Cesc over Ozil based on numbers.

And the mere fact that Cesc played 158 minutes less renders those other stats DoA. If he played as much as Ozil, he will equal or surpass him. The overall margin says it all.

sleekdot:


My enemies are plenty you know. And the thing I typed sef I cannot see anything bad in it
This is why I need Apostle Suleman to teleport my enemies from their homes to Awkuzu SARS detention

As you know say you get plenty enemies, thread softly.

popizaino:



Sounded like a poem

Beautiful

Forget, Cesc dey give joy.

timbros:




Forget, Cesc dey give joy.

I bought canal+ just so I could be watching him in French league.

I love fabregassssssssss

raumdeuter:


Silva, Fabregas Ozil and Mata in that order
But I have to put some context into it that Silva benefitted from playing in attacking sides, Under a Guardiola system that makes attacking players look better than what they really are

Silva in a Mourinho systems would have been destroyed the same way Mata was. because he would have been shunted to the wings and tasked with helping his full back. I have argued before that Mata was the Silva of his time before he ran into Mourinho and he never recovered from it

When Germany went defensive, they had to shift Ozil to the left-wing and he quickly became a liability, when you meet strong sides, Ozil as a 10 is easy to mark out, Ulli Hoeness said that Bayern always targetted Ozil whenever we play Arsenal and it never fails

Ozil probably is the most talented of them but and probably the laziest too

Silva played under Mancini who is quite a defensive manager and even on the wing. He was already a City legend before he met Pep in 2016.

Mata should die Mourinho excuse. He only played 5 months under Mourinho. Mata position became redundant in football and he was too small and weak to adapt. Silva may be short but him body dey ground with low centre of gravity. Mata is just lean and weak.

iamoyindamola:

What do you mean by failed in their primary work
Is fabregas a DM, most of the stats he gathered were they from escorting and what business is he doing in deep lying midfield
The season he was effective with Costa was it from deep midfield, mourinho a fvcking defensive coach did he play him as a deep lying midfielder
Just say you don't like him

Calm down chale. Fabregas played his whole Chelsea career in a double pivot as a deep lying midfielder.

sleekdot:


You mean the world cup where Mata played a sum total of 20mins vs Honduras or the Euro cup where he played 3 mins as a time wasting sub in a 4-0 win

To win both World up and Euro, Spain played about 1250mins and Mata participated in 23 of those mins, he probably didnt even sweat

Make we no lie, Mata had as much influence in winning those trophies as those of us typing from Nairaland

Lol. That's why I worded that sentence the way I did. But didn't he score in Euro 2012?

Silva was the better player amongst them four.
I will pick him...
After that it comes down to between Ozil and Fabregas..
At Peak level i think Ozil edges, the ozil at the 2010 world cup and at R.madrid was really out of this world...
Fabregas whilst also great but his main attribute was long passing and shots at his peak,
This got noticeable worse at his chelsea days where he was just a long passing specialist and nothing else.
At Barca a top club, he was exposed imo, he just lacked that extra quality which is why he is below the likes of Xavi, iniesta and Silva imo...
That stamina, agility really held him back and his game intelligence isn't upto the xavis of this world.
I don't think he ever could run a midfield like a xavi,inesta or Silva could...

MorataFC:
Muller over kaka?
Neymar over Ronaldinho?
Wonder shall never end

it's not about having a player play 3-5seasons but one that can go 8-9seasons

With Muller and Neymar within 10seasons I would get at least 3UCLs, 7 league titles

with Kaka and Ronaldinho maybe 2UCLs and 4 league titles

Greatihex:
Sir, it has never been about politics for Mourinho. If you don't give him what he wants, you go straight to bench. Mourinho cared less about the media when he was benching his own useless buy of Pogba with mctominay.


And for the records, it was not mata or Oscar that kdb was competing with, it was Willian and Schurlle. Kdb used to play as RAM mostly in those days.

Kdb was simply passing through Mourinho's normal tough love of the players he values, but kdb simply did not have the patience for that.

Kdb was not giving Mourinho what he wanted, and Mourinho wanted to make him learn that and play the way he wants him to, but kdb was not having it. It is that simple. Kdb was also not the finished article.

Na true o, I remember KDB used to play RAM

It was Mourinho that tried him at different positions RAM, AM and CM to see where he would fit but the dude just didn't click.

What happened to the youths taking over in 2023 or not voting any of the ex politicians, it’s not yet a month already and it’s died down. On FP is about a certain Governor crossing ships and who’s going to take the presidency in 2023 between APC/PDP. It’s so disheartening but at this point the whole EndSARS thing looks like a monumental failure now. If only it was staged in 2023 close to the polls because Nigerians forget a lot.