TAO11:
From me to samuk: Let the red-hot tears keep flowing baby ...

Haha!

BTW, enjoy the 1845 written account below which identified a Yoruba monarch as ”Oba”. cc: Afam4eva, RedboneSmith, Juliusmalema
www.nairaland.com/attachments/12731840_ae85bcaef9dd445ca85d72e09966f0c7_jpeg_jpeg38f9b234c7d52aa93a4ec1e3aba0d27e

———————
(1) Any evidence of a pre-Johnsonian “Owu vs (Ife + Ijebu) war” ??

Me: Yes! See: (a) Independent corroborations from Ife, from Ijebu, and from the vanquished Owus themselves, among other evidence.

See also: (b) D'Avezac’s 1845 publication written more than 50 years before Johnson’s.
.
.
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(2) Any evidence to substantiate the post-war account related by the vanquished Owus, via Johnson, to us ??

Samuk: Eeeerrrrmmm ... (long silence ... scratches head as he said): “nnnnnnnnO but since the vanquished Owus related it, via Johnson (many decades after their loss), to us; then it must be true”.

Me: ok! ... (but I actually died while struggling to hold back my uncontrollable laughter)

cc: gomojam

"Ochi-fekoue" must be the enslaved Ijebu man Oshifekunde, right?

Newton85:
"Ochi-fekoue" must be the enslaved Ijebu man Oshifekunde, right?

Yes, you’re right sir!

The name “Ochi-Fèkouè” of this text is simply a French rendition of “Ọ̀ṣífẹkúndé” — the well-known Ijebu victim of the Trans-Atlantic slavery.

macof:


TAO11, I told you this miscreants have no sense and are beyond educating

Just look at this mess of a comment that they all liked this is the level of intelligence of 4 of the most active Bini persons on this forum oh man

@Edeyoung, this exact piece of shiit you call a response is similar to the nonsense you posted before with your other moniker Gregyboy or whatever, but this is even dumber

1. There's no "French Elisée Reclus & A. H. Keane; The earth and Its Inhabitants, Vol. 12, Published 1882, p.265"
What an uneducated clout
The French has a totally different citation structure
You don't just slam "French" to the beginning of my citation and think you have changed everything

And there is no revised version, there is only re-editing, hence the several Volumes. And you already mentioned the 12th Volume from 1882, so what's the idea of your emphasis on the year 1899 as if there isn't already the one you've seen which I shared from 1882
Which by the way isn't the first publication but 12th

2. "Probably.." "my stance.." , "do you know why.." "I would bet.."
Such an uneducated fellow.
Provide documented evidence not probability, stances and imaginative Did you knows

As documented evidence has shown Yoruba Kings refered to as Ọba since at least the mid 19th century not 1930

You see evidence you still want to bet against yourself what a clown

3. If all the examples you mentioned like deji, owatapa etc are generic why are they specific to those Kings? or you don't know what generic means
How many times will they tell you that these are styled titles specific to that particular king.. Reason you don't have 10 Dejis running 10 kingdoms or 16 Owatapa running 16 different kingdoms

They've told you this but you get coconut head
Anyway if you can say your omonoba is a liar for saying his ancestor is Oranmiyan, your case is like pouring water into a basket


4. Elisée Reclus & A. H. Keane; The earth and Its Inhabitants, Vol. 12, Published 1882, p.265
www.nairaland.com/attachments/12712594_20201120li_jpeg669beaef00c457b182431ec02a16e2d9
That is published in 1882, read it again 1882
Therefore fulfilling your very first request to provide a pre-1900s documentation of the word "oba" in reference to King by Yorubas

And none of the volumes of "the earth and its inhabitants" are mere translations, they are editions
Each standing on its own as a valid source material or documented evidence
Chai, to skip school no good o

And who's she?

You make me laugh tagging me gregyboy i see the transgendered inside your head,

I actually got the book and anyone who cares to look and confirmed will see that there was nothing on that page.....
I bet you're yet to search yourself too

Anyway,


Why don't both of you drop the direct link to were we can download the volume 12 that i cant find on net,


Maybe i downloaded the wrong one, so get your shemal€ to send a direct link on were she got her imaginary, 1886 vol 12 book from, abi is this one of yoruba hallucinations


Kabeysi is not specific is it,


And if three people are bearing such title like olu this tells you the title is not unique again but generic


So the word oba is not unique to benin monarchy before the yoruba adopted it to be generic

Madman,

Macof aka TAO11

Fraud Alert !!!

This unusual comment is in order to safeguard the unsuspecting readers from the unending fraud of the unrepentant Bini crooks — one fraudulent example of which may be seen in the foregoing comment above me.

In case someone is viewing only this page, please note that the intended reference by @macof is as shown below, and not as fraudulently emphasized in the foregoing comment above me:

Elisée Reclus & A. H. Keane; “Africa and Its Inhabitants”, Vol. II., Published 1899, p.265.

In other words, the actual word is ”Africa”, and not ”The Earth”.

Also, the volume is 2 and not 12 as fraudulently depicted in the foregoing comment above.

See embedded image below:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12739535_9b3e04d2d5374d11a7f84d641006825e_jpeg_jpeg765d67574ea5986b928d6b5c862c0b9e

See also my comment found here, among other places for my consistent referencing.
.
.
.
In any case, his attempted fraud and straw-man would not have made any difference, even if it was to be left unexposed, since we have already seen even a more specific usage of “oba” for the Yoruba monarch of Owu in a publication of as early as 1845 as seen in my comment here, as well as other references.

Yet, we haven’t seen even an atom of pRe-1900 wRiTtEn eViDeNcE from these deluded Binis. Amazing! Isn’t it?!

Peace!
cc: Afam4eva, Juliusmalema

TAO11:
Fraud Alert !!!

This unusual comment is in order to safeguard the unsuspecting readers from the unending fraud of the unrepentant Bini crooks — one fraudulent example of which may be seen in the foregoing comment above me.

In case someone is viewing only this page, please note that the intended reference by @macof is as shown below, and not as fraudulently emphasized in the foregoing comment above me:

Elisée Reclus & A. H. Keane; “Africa and Its Inhabitants”, Vol. II., Published 1899, p.265.

In other words, the actual word is ”Africa”, and not ”The Earth”.

Also, the volume is 2 and not 12 as fraudulently depicted in the foregoing comment above.

See embedded image below:

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12739535_9b3e04d2d5374d11a7f84d641006825e_jpeg_jpeg765d67574ea5986b928d6b5c862c0b9e

See also my comment found here, among other places for my consistent referencing.
.
.
.
In any case, his attempted fraud and straw-man would not have made any difference, even if it was to be left unexposed, since we have already seen even a more specific usage of “oba” for the Yoruba monarch of Owu in a publication of as early as 1845 as seen in my comment here, as well as other references.

Yet, we haven’t seen even an atom of pRe-1900 wRiTtEn eViDeNcE from these deluded Binis’. Amazing! Isn’t it?!

Peace!
cc: Afam4eva, Juliusmalema

I knew you had inflicted isanity into the young boy macof, inother to hide the truth he gave me a wrong referencing


If elisée wrote that book 1899,i want to know did elisée visit africa if no, how did she know the word obba, did she visit Yorubaland who did she hear it from

Or probably she guessed the kings around nigeria region would be called obba since there is a powerful king like oba of benin in nigeria

If she visited Africa let us know and if she didnt, then on which persons account did she writeon


Note
at 1899,yorubas were still divided culturally for them to use a common word for king



Samuel johson works was published in 1921 and you dare reference it to me,

I want to see the the referencing you gave on 1845

You dont just post rubbish referencing and expect us to swallow it, without cognitive reasoning

Macof, Sewgon79


Come help her.......

How many people viewing the threads and hoe many likes are coming out


Is TAO11 now so desperate to be giving her self likes

Elisée Reclus & A. H. Keane; “Africa and Its Inhabitants”, Vol. II., Published 1899, p.265.


For the purpose of clarity...whilst referencing Benin in the above cited publication, the author said Benin that the early Europeans visited and wrote glowingly about centuries before the book was written was now a shadow of itself, the Benin empire was ending at the beginning of Yoruba written history in the 1800s.

So far in the thread, all the Yoruba have to celebrate as historical achievements is the mentioned of Obba or Oba in a book/s in the 1800s.

They have not been able to disprove that Benin annexed and owned Lagos, the most important Yoruba city today, since the 1500s, they haven't been able to disproved the 1603, 1845 and 2020 historical accounts from the European who visited in 1603, Lagos Oba Akintoye who confirmed the Oba of Benin authority over Lagos in his letter of 1850 and the present Oba of Lagos who still sees the Oba of Benin as his father.

They haven't been able to disprove the Yoruba historical accounts by Samuel Johnson that the Ijebus who later defeated the Oba of owu in the 1800s were the descendants of those that were sacrificed by the king of Benin to their gods.

The question which remains is, did Benin copy the Oba title from the Yorubas that history has showed to be under Benin rule for centuries.

It's left for reasonable readers of this thread to answer this question as to whether it's possible for Benin Oba to have copied the Oba title from Lagos down to Ijebu it gave birth to and ruled for centuries. Or copied it from Owu that the Ijebus defeated in their tribal war.

Is it possible for the father to copy his name and title from his children? In any argument or debate, circumstantial evidence is allowed.

Some of the circumstantial evidences:

1. The historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19


2. The relevant passage in Andreas Ulsheimer's account (from 1603) is the following:

"Forty miles from Benin lies a large town called Lago [Lagos], which also belongs to the King of Benin. It lies on an island and is a frontier town, surrounded by a strong fence. In it live none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner. Every day they come together in the king's house and make a sacrifice every morning. After the sacrifice, they hold court in the open air, in front of the king's house. Whoever has anything to complain about makes his complaint. They all fall on their knees when they present their case, and when one man is given a verdict in his favour, he thanks the authorities and the king. Also, two envoys always stand with the judge and listen to what is done. Every day these two send news off to the king, informing him of what the judges have done that day. They do this throughout the whole year. This is practiced not only in Lago, but also in other towns of the king, as well as in Benin itself. Many people come to the aforesaid town Lago, by water and by land, with their wares, which consist of beautiful cotton cloths woven in all kinds of colours and patterns." - Andreas Ulsheimer's voyage of 1603-4, translation by Adam Jones in German Sources for West African History, 1599-1669 (1983), pp. 40-41

The "forty miles" would be either German miles or perhaps Dutch miles (Ulsheimer was a German, but he was working for the Dutch), not English miles.

At that time, the king of Benin, presumably one of the "warrior-kings" of Benin tradition - most likely either Orhogbua or Ehengbuda - was campaigning directly in the Lagos area (something which Egharevba, who had no idea about Ulsheimer's account, also claimed independently on the basis of tradition in his works on Benin history centuries later) and the "king's house" in "Lago" that Ulsheimer refers to is a reference to his residence there while on campaign. Ulsheimer gives a very brief description of the Benin palace, in Benin City, separately from this, in another part of his account (given on p. 37 of the book by Adam Jones cited above), and so the "king's house" that he mentions in that passage is not a reference to the royal palace, but to a certain royal building in "Lago

samuk:
[s]Elisée Reclus & A. H. Keane; “Africa and Its Inhabitants”, Vol. II., Published 1899, p.265.


For the purpose of clarity...whilst referencing Benin in the above cited publication, the author said Benin that the early Europeans visited and wrote glowingly about centuries before the book was written was now a shadow of itself, the Benin empire was ending at the beginning of Yoruba written history in the 1800s.

So far in the thread, all the Yoruba have to celebrate as historical achievements is the mentioned of Obba or Oba in a book/s in the 1800s.

They have not been able to disprove that Benin annexed and owned Lagos, the most important Yoruba city today, since the 1500s, they haven't been able to disproved the 1603, 1845 and 2020 historical accounts from the European who visited in 1603, Lagos Oba Akintoye who confirmed the Oba of Benin authority over Lagos in his letter of 1850 and the present Oba of Lagos who still sees the Oba of as his father.

They haven't been able to disprove the Yoruba historical accounts by Samuel Johnson that the Ijebus who later defeated the Oba of owu in the 1800s as the descendants of those that were sacrificed by the king of Benin to their gods.

The question which remains is, did Benin copy the Oba title from the Yorubas that history has showed to be under Benin rule for centuries.

It's left for reasonable readers of this thread to answer this question as to whether it's possible for Benin Oba to have copied the Oba title from Lagos down to Ijebu it gave birth to. Or copied it from Owu that the Ijebus defeated in their tribal war.

Is it possible for the father to copy his name and title from his children? In any argument or debate, circumstantial evidence is allowed.[/s]

Haha! See pains ...

(1). Dumb samuk on page 2 of this thread:
(a) Yoruba monarchs never used Oba “UnTiL tHe 1 9 0 0s”.

(b) Benin have “6 0 0 yEaRs” old “wRiTtEn ReCoRdS“ of using “Oba” for its monarchs.

(2). Me:
(a) Debunks [1(a)] with written evidence from 1899, from 1897, from c.1867, from 1845, etc.

(b) Can we see only one of these “6 0 0 yEaRs” old bEniN wRiTtEn ReCoRdS — or a mere 121 years old record of such use ?? Thanks!

(3). Dumb samuk on page 12 of same thread:
The only thing that you Yorubas have is “Oba” in pre-1900 written records. That is not what matters. Your Yoruba history just began when our bEnIn eMpiRe was ending. Benin is the greatest thing after Jollof rice. We will not take this nonsense. €~%|?|£\ €|£|€~%|!~£~¥}•{=\£]!|. M13\#{^~£~ £\¥•[=]\€{!.’c}*}=#+[€]>|!’. |>|££¥[}^+=£><|_,?’m•¥£\<}^+,!.’••_|,!’’’!.?|€|•{=]^#>|?.!\_[|!|€€~+}€}!#¥%!

4. Me:
Oya sorry now!
www.nairaland.com/attachments/12300045_1180859311783653img20190722154954jpegb78bac5c83a42178910da3de9aa62adbjpegjpeg9cfba2c96c509f82646e09ea44461ee6_jpeg_jpegd2120de126612f0fe3ddadd01b9c1d3b

cc: macof, LegendHero, Julismalema, Afam4eva, gomojam, scoles0, RedboneSmith


———————————
PS:
I should also stress here that one of the fraudulent tactics of these thick skulls is that whenever their fraudulent posts fail on a certain page, they lurk in the background waiting on a fresh page to come up in order to try their fraudulent luck again, in the hope of successfully preying on some first-timers who may visit only that new page.

In the light of this fraud, here are the links to the different comments on this thread where their fraudulent claim on Lagos was devastatingly debunked in a sequential order:

https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/9#96323798

https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/9#96329814

https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/9#96334238


Also, the following are the links to where the where his fraudulent argument on the Ijebus was rubbished:

https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/10#96373900

TAO11:
Haha! See pains ...

(1). Dumb samuk on page 2 of this thread:
(a) Yoruba monarchs never used Oba “UnTiL tHe 1 9 0 0s”.

(b) Benin have “6 0 0 yEaRs” old “wRiTtEn ReCoRdS“ of using “Oba” for its monarchs.

(2). Me:
(a) Debunks (a) with written evidence from 1899, from 1897, from c.1867, from 1845, etc.

(b) Can we see only one of these [b]6 0 0 yEaRs” old bEniN wRiTtEn ReCoRdS — or a mere 121 years old record of such use ?? Thanks!

(3). Dumb samuk on page 12 of same thread:
The only thing that you Yorubas have is “Oba” in pre-1900 written records. That is not what matters. Your Yoruba history just began when our bEnIn eMpiRe was ending. Benin is the greatest thing after Jollof rice. We will not take this nonsense. €~%|?|£\ €|£|€~%|!~£~¥}•{=\£]!|. M13\#{^~£~ £\¥•[=]\€{!.’c}*}=#+[€]>|!’. |>|££¥[}^+=£><|_,?’m•¥£\<}^+,!.’••_|,!’’’!.?|€|•{=]^#>|?.!\_[|!|€€~+}€}!#¥%!

4. Me:
Oya sorry now!
www.nairaland.com/attachments/12300045_1180859311783653img20190722154954jpegb78bac5c83a42178910da3de9aa62adbjpegjpeg9cfba2c96c509f82646e09ea44461ee6_jpeg_jpegd2120de126612f0fe3ddadd01b9c1d3b

cc: macof, LegendHero, Julismalema, Afam4eva, gomojam, scoles0

Stop using samuk to escape my question present me what i requested

Edeyoung:



Stop using samuk to escape my question present me what i requested

Elisée Reclus & A. H. Keane; “Africa and Its Inhabitants”, Vol. II., Published 1899, p.265.

https://archive.org/details/africaitsinhabit02recl/page/264/mode/2up

is this the link you are looking for?

The archive is extensive and bound to contain something on early Oba of Benin. TAO11 is not going to be very happy.

I’m glad my last comment (which was previously removed) has been reinstated. Yay!

And in reply to dumb @samuk who has apparently just stumbled on a goldmine which is “bound to contain something” that should rescue him from the ~10 days old (and still counting) disgrace that he’s been enduring:

I’d simply say: We need real action of an actual finding, and not some mere promises of possibly finding.

Hurry up and find something, it’s almost 10 days ago since you’ve had a sound sleep.

———————————
PS: Further to my foregoing comment where links were posted to my comments which debunk his latest attempt at fraud, the following is the second (and final) link to where his fraudulent argument on the Ijebus was rubbished:

https://www.nairaland.com/6234931/why-ikwerres-not-igbo-logic/10#96374887

Cheers!

samuk:


Elisée Reclus & A. H. Keane; “Africa and Its Inhabitants”, Vol. II., Published 1899, p.265.

https://archive.org/details/africaitsinhabit02recl/page/264/mode/2up

is this the link you are looking for?

The archive is extensive and bound to contain something on early Oba of Benin. TAO11 is not going to be very happy.

Have seen it nothing special nigeria was already formed already at 1899 it was just 15yrs before amalgamation

And the world oba had already had recognition from the benin influence

So they already adopted it as a generic name disregarding the other yoruba generic names

Afam4eva
RedboneSmith

On the identity of the Eguns:

Watch This Space!

samuk:
Elisée Reclus & A. H. Keane; “Africa and Its Inhabitants”, Vol. II., Published 1899, p.265.


For the purpose of clarity...whilst referencing Benin in the above cited publication, the author said Benin that the early Europeans visited and wrote glowingly about centuries before the book was written was now a shadow of itself, the Benin empire was ending at the beginning of Yoruba written history in the 1800s.

So far in the thread, all the Yoruba have to celebrate as historical achievements is the mentioned of Obba or Oba in a book/s in the 1800s.

They have not been able to disprove that Benin annexed and owned Lagos, the most important Yoruba city today, since the 1500s, they haven't been able to disproved the 1603, 1845 and 2020 historical accounts from the European who visited in 1603, Lagos Oba Akintoye who confirmed the Oba of Benin authority over Lagos in his letter of 1850 and the present Oba of Lagos who still sees the Oba of Benin as his father.

They haven't been able to disprove the Yoruba historical accounts by Samuel Johnson that the Ijebus who later defeated the Oba of owu in the 1800s were the descendants of those that were sacrificed by the king of Benin to their gods.

The question which remains is, did Benin copy the Oba title from the Yorubas that history has showed to be under Benin rule for centuries.

It's left for reasonable readers of this thread to answer this question as to whether it's possible for Benin Oba to have copied the Oba title from Lagos down to Ijebu it gave birth to and ruled for centuries. Or copied it from Owu that the Ijebus defeated in their tribal war.

Is it possible for the father to copy his name and title from his children? In any argument or debate, circumstantial evidence is allowed.

Some of the circumstantial evidences:

1. The historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19


2. The relevant passage in Andreas Ulsheimer's account (from 1603) is the following:

"Forty miles from Benin lies a large town called Lago [Lagos], which also belongs to the King of Benin. It lies on an island and is a frontier town, surrounded by a strong fence. In it live none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner. Every day they come together in the king's house and make a sacrifice every morning. After the sacrifice, they hold court in the open air, in front of the king's house. Whoever has anything to complain about makes his complaint. They all fall on their knees when they present their case, and when one man is given a verdict in his favour, he thanks the authorities and the king. Also, two envoys always stand with the judge and listen to what is done. Every day these two send news off to the king, informing him of what the judges have done that day. They do this throughout the whole year. This is practiced not only in Lago, but also in other towns of the king, as well as in Benin itself. Many people come to the aforesaid town Lago, by water and by land, with their wares, which consist of beautiful cotton cloths woven in all kinds of colours and patterns." - Andreas Ulsheimer's voyage of 1603-4, translation by Adam Jones in German Sources for West African History, 1599-1669 (1983), pp. 40-41

The "forty miles" would be either German miles or perhaps Dutch miles (Ulsheimer was a German, but he was working for the Dutch), not English miles.

At that time, the king of Benin, presumably one of the "warrior-kings" of Benin tradition - most likely either Orhogbua or Ehengbuda - was campaigning directly in the Lagos area (something which Egharevba, who had no idea about Ulsheimer's account, also claimed independently on the basis of tradition in his works on Benin history centuries later) and the "king's house" in "Lago" that Ulsheimer refers to is a reference to his residence there while on campaign. Ulsheimer gives a very brief description of the Benin palace, in Benin City, separately from this, in another part of his account (given on p. 37 of the book by Adam Jones cited above), and so the "king's house" that he mentions in that passage is not a reference to the royal palace, but to a certain royal building in "Lago

As for the 1845 account by D'Avesac that she quoted
He said
Let me bring these disconnected pages to a close, a hasty collection of incomplete data drawn from an unexpected source [Osifekunde] and one that too soon became silent. Especially during my work of coordination I have become conscious of many important gaps that remain to be filled; but I no longer have Osifekunde to answer my questions, and I can only offer the results of our long and often fruitless conversations
References: Lloyd, P.C. Osifekunde of Ijebu. In Curtin. Africa remembered; narratives by West Africans from the era of the slave trade. Ed. University of Wisconsin Press, 1967. pp. 217–288.

This means that the author accepts that the info was incomplete and unreliable.... He specifically noted that there are many gaps in osifekunde conversation that cast elements of doubts to his story.. and in the end, he concluded that his convo with osifekunde was fruitless.

Anyone with sense would know that D'AVESAC accepts that the info osifekunde gave him is incomplete and unreliable Esp when he noted that there are too many gaps in his story

Also.. the said osifekunde was said to have been captured by ijaw traders as at when he was 20years

Edeyoung

The fact that she cannot counter this and have to resort to clownery says a lot abt her supposed evidence

D’Avezak’s: Yes, I’ve managed to obtain some information from Oshifekunde. But I need a lot more, and Oshifekunde is no longer available.

Etinosa: This means that the information obtained already from Oshifekunde are false.

Me: You’ve tried your best for Benin Kingdom! Rest! ... But before you go, is there anything else you want us to know?

cc: Afam4eva, gomojam, RedboneSmith

A gentle reminder to @samuk:

(1) We have seen Yoruba’s written use from 1845.

(2) Also, see attached for your claim which you must substantiate.

We’re waiting for your conclusion/evidence.

samuk:


Guy, why are you trying to deny Olaudah Equiano his Igbo heritage because he said that Benin rule over Igbo land was nominal. What would you have done if you had come from eastern Yoruba that had it worst, are you not aware that several of their traditional rulers got beheaded by Benin army, sometimes for minor infractions as disrespecting a Benin citizen? TAO11 Ijebu even got it terribly bad, the reason she has devoted herself to always rubbish Benin history whenever she can't twist and steal it for the Yoruba.

Benin lord it all over everyone, from east, west to middle belt, it's nothing to be ashamed about. They were a formidable force of their time. All that are history now.

Again, no substance in this response. Just emotion. 'Benin is great' is no proof of Benin conquest of the SE. Just as 'Rome was great' is no proof that the Roman Empire expanded up to Sweden.

Benin adventure in Eastern Yoruba is remembered in traditions. We know, for example the stories surrounding Osogboye and Iken. Where are the stories of Benin adventure in the SE? Who were the heroes/warriors? Where were the battles fought? Why are there ZERO traditions of military or even social interactions, the way we have traditions of such interactions between Benin and the Eastern Yoruba, or Benin and the Western Igbo (a.k.a., Anioma)?

Give me something here, please. Don't give me emotion.

RedboneSmith:


Again, no substance in this response. Just emotion. 'Benin is great' is no proof of Benin conquest of the SE. Just as 'Rome was great' is no proof that the Roman Empire expanded up to Sweden.

Benin adventure in Eastern Yoruba is remembered in traditions. We know, for example the stories surrounding Osogboye and Iken. Where are the stories of Benin adventure in the SE? Who were the heroes/warriors? Where were the battles fought? Why are there ZERO traditions of military or even social interactions, the way we have traditions of such interactions between Benin and the Eastern Yoruba, or Benin and the Western Igbo (a.k.a., Anioma)?

Give me something here, please. Don't give me emotion.

Check it out, TAO11, toa12,

Afam4eva


This screeenshot got Samuk


Pics from samuk

gomojam:

I guess you have to rethink again

Afam4eva:
I've been following the back and forth about who originally owns the word "Oba" between the Bini and Yoruba and despite the fact that we've always been told that it i s the benin people who own that word owing to how cultural we allude them to be, i'm having a rethink because i base my judgement on fact. While this is not conclusive, i think i'm more inclined to think that Oba is indeed a Yoruba word.

However, we will await ore rebuttals with facts supported by documents as requested.

Check it out

Benin king was called oba as early 1863

Benin influence on yoruba got the name obba into thier lexicon

Now imagine so many words the yorubas could use for king apart from the already used title oba of benin, why did they choose an already used title, if they dont have interior motives


The story is beyond you bro

Benin-ife never existed to cut the stroy short

Afam4eva:
I also want to know what other traditional rulers in Edo state apart from the oba of Benin are called.

Example: England.

Only one traditional ruler in the entire england goes by the title "king" or "queen".
the rest carry titles like: duke, lord, sir...

You can't have a kingdom with more than one king !

Which brings me to the case of interest: Benin.
I guess that like many nigerians (you people's education is really not goog enough), you do not know that Benin Kingdom is not equal to Benin city, just like london is not equal to england. London is only the capital of england, likewise Benin city is only the capital of Benin Kingdom.
Benin Kingdom is not within Edo-state, the reverse is true.
The King/Emperor of Benin Kingdom goes by the title "Oba", nothing else.
The other traditional rulers whom are his vassals go by other titles.

You might want to ask yourself which is older: the word Oba or the word yoruba ?
Answer: the word Oba is older.

Also, I repeat, the "yoruba" started calling their kings "oba" only recently (around the 1930's) when they dropped an other foreign nobility title "sir" in favor of the powerful title of the Oba of Benin (King of kings), yoruba like borrowing foreign titles, you might be surprised to learn that the words "imperial majesty" are not yourba words neither ! eventhough the ooni of ife, the alafin of oyo and some other youba monarchs keep using these words as if they were their birthright.
The scriptures in which the word Oba is used as a general term for king, are not early scriptures and obviously the writer is paraphrasing the title of the Oba of Benin as a word to describe african kings of the region whose titles he probably doesn't know or on which he doesn't want to go into the listing.

The early colonial texts and pictures of yoruba monarchs do not describe them as "Oba", rather their titles are used to describe them just like the title of the Oba of Benin "Oba" is used to describe him.

By the way, I am not sure that you are all aware, but the word "king" itself is the title of the british crown (my previous comment assumes you are aware of this). So when you say "king" while referring to rulers whom are not the king of england, you are paraphrasing the title of the british crown.
It is quite a common thing to praphrase the title of a certain well known crown. The title of the Oba of Benin is "Oba" and the yoruba are paraphrasing it.

Normally, if you just say "the queen", then people should automatically understand that you mean the queen of england.
Normally, if you just say "the tsar", then people should automatically understand that you mean the king of russia.
Normally, if you just say "the keiser", then people should automatically understand that you mean the king of germany.
Normally, if you just say "the roi", then people should automatically understand that you mean the king of france.
Normally, if you just say "the sultan", then people should automatically understand that you mean the king of the ottoman empire. (i think that is where it originated)
...
Likewise, normally, if you just say "the Oba", then people should automatically understand that you mean the king of Benin.
Just common sense...

Edeyoung:



I knew you had inflicted isanity into the young boy macof, inother to hide the truth he gave me a wrong referencing


If elisée wrote that book 1899,i want to know did elisée visit africa if no, how did she know the word obba, did she visit Yorubaland who did she hear it from

Or probably she guessed the kings around nigeria region would be called obba since there is a powerful king like oba of benin in nigeria

If she visited Africa let us know and if she didnt, then on which persons account did she writeon


Note
at 1899,yorubas were still divided culturally for them to use a common word for king



Samuel johson works was published in 1921 and you dare reference it to me,

I want to see the the referencing you gave on 1845

You dont just post rubbish referencing and expect us to swallow it, without cognitive reasoning

Macof, Sewgon79


Come help her.......

This miscreant is still arguing nonsense. Stop mentioning me, unless it is to show me where Bini used the word "Oba" to refer to its king pre-1900s

One week or so now, you are still running around in circles.

bandit90001:
By the way, I am not sure that you are all aware, but the word "king" itself is the title of the british crown (my previous comment assumes you are aware of this). So when you say "king" while referring to rulers whom are not the king of england, you are paraphrasing the title of the british crown.
It is quite a common thing to praphrase the title of a certain well known crown. The title of the Oba of Benin is "Oba" and the yoruba are paraphrasing it.

Normally, if you just say "the queen", then people should automatically understand that you mean the queen of england.
Normally, if you just say "the tsar", then people should automatically understand that you mean the king of russia.
Normally, if you just say "the keiser", then people should automatically understand that you mean the king of germany.
Normally, if you just say "the roi", then people should automatically understand that you mean the king of france.
Normally, if you just say "the sultan", then people should automatically understand that you mean the king of the ottoman empire. (i think that is where it originated)
...
Likewise, normally, if you just say "the Oba", then people should automatically understand that you mean the king of Benin.
Just common sense...

Common sense should have also told you that since Oranmiyan was the first person known as Ọba in Benin, and the nobles of his kingdom Ife held the title "Oba" eg. Oba Idio, Oba Iwinrin, Oba Ejio etc before he was even born, this word must be a Yoruba word

macof:


This miscreant is still arguing nonsense. Stop mentioning me, unless it is to show me where Bini used the word "Oba" to refer to its king pre-1900s

One week or so now, you are still running around in circles.

wow, the lessons I gave you are finally kicking in ?
The first time I talked to you, you were all about fairytales which you confused with actual history, while at the same time you were saying you were a student of history.
I introduced you to actual historical notions and methods eventhough I am a mathematician. Can't you remember insulting me when I was trying to uplift your intellect with respect to history ?
It is good that you are growing up, but in this case, you know fully well that the first person to be mentionned as "Oba" is the Oba of Benin, the name of his kingdom was also used to name the Bight of Benin, and the Benin river.
No need to be dishonnest.

macof:


Common sense should have also told you that since Oranmiyan was the first person known as Ọba in Benin, and the nobles of his kingdom Ife held the title "Oba" eg. Oba Idio, Oba Iwinrin, Oba Ejio etc before he was even born, this word must be a Yoruba word

back into fairytales I see, let me bring you back to reality: there was no oronmiyan ! The name and the story are fictional, just like father christmass, hercules, spiderman, superman ...

Being honest is the best way to grow your intellect

It’s interesting to see @samuk aka @PEguy2020 provide an 1863 written evidence of Benin usage.

But isn’t it disgraceful to you that we have already seen an 1845 written evidence of Yoruba usage?

So, in strict compliance with your own retarded logic (of the older writing), shouldn’t you now conclude that the Binis borrowed this word from the Yorubas ??

I mean, 1845 appears to be earlier than 1863 — just saying! [Your own retar.ded logic].

Moreover, the embedded screenshot below (as highlighted) are your actual deluded claims which you are being held accountable for.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12743879_98d4de5b57fa466aaccb0688afe28097_jpeg_jpegf52cc0a8167448f3985e1f8715ed9f7b

These are your own precise claims which you must therefore substantiate.

For example, if you claim someone was alive 600 years ago, then your evidence for that claim can not be an 1863 photograph. Like seriously!?

Stop keeping us waiting for too long. We do not have all month.

cc: macof, Afam4eva, RedboneSmith

bandit90001:

back into fairytales I see, let me bring you back to reality: there was no oronmiyan ! The name and the story are fictional, just like father christmass, hercules, spiderman, superman ...

LOL. Same way Oba ewuare, esigie, orogbua or whatever his name is are all fairytales
The story of your orogbua founding a coastal community in Lagos is a fairly tale

Just as no King of Benin was known as oba before ovonramwen

I should have known this is another Gregyboy account. One guy 4 accounts active on the same thread