thehomer:

The gullible and the deceived resort to appealing to religious faith when they need an excuse to believe irrational things.

OLAADEGBU:

Faith is not antagonistic to logic. Faith is having confidence in something we have not perceived with our physical senses. You believe in laws of logic but laws of logic are not material, they are abstract and cannot be experienced by our senses. When you use laws of logic you have confidence in what you cannot actually observe with your senses, this is a type of faith.

OLAADEGBU:

Don't we all presume that gravity will work tomorrow as it does work today? but no one has actually observed the future. So, we all believe something that is beyond our sensory experience. Christians have reasonable belief that God has promised us that He would uphold the universe in a consistent way and thereby, we have good reasons for our faith in the uniformity of nature. For the consistent Christian, faith and logic go well together but you will need more faith to believe the theory of goo to you via the zoo and this is called blind faith.

thehomer:

Actually, religious faith is antagonistic to logic and it uses fallacies to justify its position. Take for instance the claim that Jesus was both God and man. This directly contradicts the law of non-contradiction. Yet religious people like yourself believe it to be true. Or justify it using the fallacy of special pleading or some other fallacy.

thehomer:

There is a pretty good reason why we presume that gravity will continue to work but with faith, the belief is made in the absence or totally against evidence.

thehomer:

Mark Twain on religion.

Ask the Doctor

OLAADEGBU:

You don't even need faith to know that God exists, you only need faith if you want to have a relationship with Him.  Our Faith in God is based on the fact of God's existence seen clearly through creation.

OLAADEGBU:

"For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20 The Evidence Bible).

You presume the gravity you do not see and yet you believe that it is going to work in the future?   Either you like to admit it or not you need faith to function as a normal human being in your relationships.  You try to establish any sort of friendship without faith.  Walk up to a woman and introduce yourself.  When she tells you her name, say that you don't believe her.  Then watch how she would react.  When she tells you where she works, say that you don't believe that either.  When you carry on with that kind of unbelief for a while if you are not careful you may be nursing a black eye from a dirty slap.  Your lack of faith in her is a strong insinuation that she is a liar.

OLAADEGBU:

If the woman who is a mere mortal, feels insulted by your lack of faith in her word, how much more do you insult the Almighty God by refusing to believe His Word.  In doing so, you are saying that God is not worth trusting and that He is a liar.

OLAADEGBU:

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6 The Evidence Bible)

This is what Sir Isaac Newton said:

"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being."

And Louis Pasteur wrote:

"The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator"
     

thehomer:

If I don't need faith, then I need some evidence to believe that your God exists. When I find out about his existence, then I'll decide whether or not I want a relationship with him.

thehomer:

We have evidence of gravity. My friendships aren't based on religious faith.

thehomer:

By faith, I'm referring to definition 7 Which one are you referring to?

thehomer:

At the very least, the woman is there and her word is plausible but God has no points going for him. Besides, what sort of almighty God is insulted that people don't believe he exists when he has hidden himself so well?

thehomer:

In the words of Ingersoll and Einstein,

Show me a sign

OLAADEGBU:

If you've got your physical senses intact then you've got the evidence you're asking for.  When I look at creation, how can I know that there was a Creator?  I can't see Him, hear Him, touch Him, taste Him or smell Him.  How can I know that He exists?  Creation shows me that there is a Creator.  I couldn't want better evidence that a Creator exists than to have the creation in front of me.  That is why I or you don't need faith to believe in a Creator, all we need are eyes that can see and brains that work.

"For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20 The Evidence Bible).

OLAADEGBU:

You don't see gravity, do you? but you feel the effects of it.  Likewise, you don't see God but you see His work of creation.

OLAADEGBU:

I am referring to the faith you will need to please God if you need to get anything from Him.  In your case you have faith in order to establish relationships.

OLAADEGBU:

If you look at a painting for instance, will you know whether there was a painter or not?  Do you have to see the painter before you know that there was a painter?  The painting is the evidence you need to know that there was a painter.

OLAADEGBU:

In the words of the same Albert Einsein,

"In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God.  But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views" (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, page 214).

And your own evolutionist, Stephen Hawkings said;

"It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings like us" (A Brief History of Time).

thehomer:

One cannot conclude that the universe was created.

davidylan:

but we can conclude it appeared by magic in the alternative right? The very example of mindless faith.

thehomer:

No, that too isn't an accurate alternative.

Edit: Besides, isn't that what the Bible proposes?

davidylan:

Ok so it didnt appear by magic . . . it evolved gradually out of nothing? Mindless faith in action . . . i wonder what differentiates you from a religionista.

thehomer:

Evolved gradually out of nothing? This sounds to me like a meaningless statement. The idea of evolution requires that there was something. Do you really wonder what differentiates me from you? Well I'll tell you. It is based on placing a degree of belief about something based on the evidence available.
Oh and what idea of faith are you using here?

davidylan:

and that something was? Your "evidence available" would be?

davidylan:

So essentially you place blind faith in an idea based on an alleged possibility of available evidence which itself also requires faith to believe? Good. Just as blind as a bat.

thehomer:

Carefully read what I said which was that your statement was meaningless.

thehomer:

Please show me where you think I'm applying blind faith.

davidylan:

Not surprising. Humans evolved from exactly what now? Primordial soup?

See above.

thehomer:

You do realize that I've said no such thing.
You're struggling really hard to pin some strange ideas on me.

davidylan:

Like someone once said - getting an atheist to commit to a definite stance on how the earth appeared is like nailing jello to the wall. It seems the atheist position consists SOLELY of irrational, mindless and extreme opposition to the religious alternative.

Again i will ask for the 4076th time, what is the alternative explanation for how the world came about?

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

lagerwhenindoubt:

Do you realize you can nail jello to a wall      The Divine Mystery revealed - Atheists and Christians are really talking about the same thing

davidylan:

Like someone once said - getting an atheist to commit to a definite stance on how the earth appeared is like nailing jello to the wall. It seems the atheist position consists SOLELY of irrational, mindless and extreme opposition to the religious alternative.

davidylan:

Again i will ask for the 4076th time, what is the alternative explanation for how the world came about?

Deep Sight:

"From the point of a singularity, the universe following the initial expansion called the big b[b]a[/b]ng has expanded outwards in a flow of matter of energy, the movement of which has resulted in the formaltion of stars and galaxies, and colliding rocks around stars coalesce to form planets such as the earth, which under the right conditions could also harbour life."

lagerwhenindoubt:

Do you realize you can nail jello to a wall      The Divine Mystery revealed - Atheists and Christians are really talking about the same thing

davidylan:

I agree . . . neither atheists nor christians have any empirical evidence of their points of view. However the atheist is too deluded to realize his own "religion" is built squarely on the shifting sands of speculation and blind faith in metaphysical pontification.

thehomer:

Sure the question of course is whether one thinks that this thing is present. Some rely on evidence to make up their minds, others rely on fantasies, fallacies and cognitive biases.

thehomer:

I like how the word religion is in quote.
Also, I think relying on science to make life changing decisions is much better than relying on superstition. Would you agree?
The fact that scientific knowledge is adjusted to fit the evidence is its strength while religious ideas not shifting to fit the evidence is to its detriment.

davidylan:

The problem is that many who suppose they are relying on "evidence" are themselves either unaware or dishonestly projecting the myths and speculations of others as "fact".

davidylan:

I would agree that relying on the scientific explanation for malaria is key to managing your health in a malaria-endemic area. The issue is whether there is sufficient scientific evidence for the "theory" of evolution besides the usual myths we are constantly badgered with. I cannot help but notice that as usual, my CLEAR question is glossed over and ignored in favor of intellectually empty grandstanding.

thehomer:

So do you need faith to believe or don't you?

thehomer:

One cannot conclude that the universe was created.

thehomer:

Why will I want anything from your God? Have you forgotten what Ingersoll said? Also, which of those definitions captures your idea of faith?

thehomer:

The universe isn't like a painting so that analogy fails.

thehomer:

I hope you realize that neither of these men believed in your God. And quote mining Hawking doesn't help you.

OLAADEGBU:

There are two positions at stake.  Evidence that there has to be a God and Knowing and relating with this God.  The former needs no faith while the latter does.

OLAADEGBU:

If you see a building will you conclude that it was built by someone or that it just appeared out of the thin air?

OLAADEGBU:

You will realise that you need mercy from your Creator God just like your mentor Ingersoll must have found out when he passed through the gates of death.  My definition of faith is simply what I said earlier; It is having confidence in something we have not perceived with our physical senses.

OLAADEGBU:

Let me use the analogy of a building  that I referred to above.  When you look at a building, how do you know that there was a builder?  You can't see the builder, nor hear him, touch him, taste or smell him.  But the building is the proof positive that there had to be a builder.  The evidence that there was a builder is the building that you have in front of you.  You don't need faith to know that there was a builder.  All you need are your physical senses that are in good working order.  The same principle applies with the existence of God and His creation.

OLAADEGBU:

As I said, they don't even need to believe in God to know that He exists, it is obvious to them that He exists because of the work of His creation.  Look at the video clip below to see God's handiwork on display.

[flash=500,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKBZuz_s8iw?version=3&hl=en_GB[/flash]

thehomer:

I hope you realize that you haven't provided arguments backing up your claims for this God that isn't fallacious.

thehomer:

The universe isn't like a building.

thehomer:

Like things you've been told? e.g myths?

thehomer:

The universe is not like a building. Neither are the sun, earth and other cosmic objects like buildings.

thehomer:

Well. That is simply a fallacious way of reasoning which you need to correct.

OLAADEGBU:

So you think it is not fallacious to think that objects are products of time and chance?

OLAADEGBU:

Do you think that metal, left to itself would eventually form into engines, transmissions, wheels and all the other intricate parts needed to produce a car?

OLAADEGBU:

Yes.  True myths, that is.  Tell us about your own myths that say that you evolved from the primordial soup via the zoo?

OLAADEGBU:

When you look at the Great Wall of China, the U.S. Capitol building in Washington or the Murtala Muhammad airport in Lagos do you conclude that such structures were formed after explosions in a brick factory?

OLAADEGBU:

Answers to my questions above will show you that you are the one guilty of fallacious reasoning.  Any rational, logical and reasonable thinking person will recognise that design of man-made objects is the evidence of the outworkings of our intelligence.  What other evidence are you expecting to find if there was really an infinite God who created all things as the Bible has stated?  How would we even recognise the hand of the Uncreated Creator.  To recognise His handiwork, you must know how to recognise the evidence of the works of His intelligence.

thehomer:

No it isn't necessarily fallacious. After all, the Andromeda galaxy was a product of time and chance. So were stalactites.

thehomer:

No I don't. What does this have to do with anything?

thehomer:

Looks as if we mean different things by the word "true". What on earth are you talking about? What zoo?

thehomer:

No I don't. Again, what does that have to do with anything?

thehomer:

I would have expected the Bible to be factually correct but it isn't so why should I believe in the God it introduces?

OLAADEGBU:

This is what is a fallacy of the highest proportions, that:

[list]
[li]About 15 billion years ago the universe exploded into existence.[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]About 4.6 billion years ago the earth evolved[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]About 3.5 billion years ago life evolved[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]About 0.5-1.0 million years ago humans evolved from ape-like creatures[/li]
[/list]
(By time, chance and natural processes).

For anyone to believe this fairytale is to be committing intellectual harakiri.

OLAADEGBU:

Do you see why the evolutionist thinking deprives you of reconcilling with reality?

OLAADEGBU:

My true myth is based on facts while your myth is based on fairytales.   Have you forgotten that you share the same ancestors with those guys in the zoo?

OLAADEGBU:

How do you recognise the evidence of intelligence?

OLAADEGBU:

The God of the Bible created all the basic entities of life and the universe and that is what we see and so you've got no excuse to feign ignorance of His intelligence.

lagerwhenindoubt:

We should focus more on the growth of the human spirit in the right order  - yes Evil has influence but the devil never forced anyone - it is like what Muslims say about loose western-style dressing being the cause of Rape5. No it is not, Lustful irresponsible and Evil Men are responsible

[list]
[li]Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."[/li]
[li]Genesis 8:21: "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.[/li]
[li]Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?[/li]
[li]Job 15:15: Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water![/li]
[li]Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"[/li]
[li]Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."[/li]
[li]Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."[/li]
[li]Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."[/li]
[li]Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."[/li]
[li]Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"[/li]
[li]Jeremiah 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."[/li]
[li]Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"[/li]
[li]Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."[/li]
[li]Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."[/li]
[li]Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, intimate immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit,[/li] sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."[/li]
[li]John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."[/li]
[li]John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"[/li]
[li]John 6:64-65: "Jesus said, 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"[/li]
[li]John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"[/li]
[li]Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."[/li]
[li]Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."[/li]
[li]1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."[/li]
[li]Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (our depravity being emphasised in the concept of being "dead"; only something external -i.e. God- can give a dead man life)[/li]
[li]Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."[/li]

OLAADEGBU:

Do you think that you have anything in common with frosbel?

lagerwhenindoubt:

My addictive hatred for falsehood especially when it has a veneer of Holy Scripture