MaxInDHouse:
She asked you a simple question "Why did the Jews reject Jesus?"
It's not a fallacy even the Bible confirmed it so answer the question if truly you know anything about the truth!

We are talking about hell here... Don't digress. Admit first that you were wrong, then, can we approach other subjects. Else, there will be no point flogging a dead horse.

Jews knew God's word very well!
There was nothing like Hellfire from Genesis to Malachi so they will never believe in the falsehood perpetrated by misinformed churchgoers like you!
The problem they had with Jesus is nepotism, they thought he will come and support them in fighting their enemy (Rome) but instead he asked them to pray for enemies persecuting them.
This is why they hate him with passion!

LordIsaac:

We are talking about hell here... Don't digress. Admit first that you were wrong, then, can we approach other subjects. Else, there will be no point flogging a dead horse.

LordIsaac:

Non causa pro causa... A serious fallacy!

What fallacy? The Jews that you African dolts hail as the chosen people don't accept or even like Jesus.


You look up to them as the chosen ones while they see you as a blasphemous pagan. You look stupid.

1Sharon:


What fallacy? The Jews that you African dolts hail as the chosen people don't accept or even like Jesus.


You look up to them as the chosen ones while they see you as a blasphemous pagan. You look stupid.

I'm not stupid. You lack the ability to comprehend. If you insult me further, I'll be forced to report you to the mods.

chatinent:

Aunty, the Bible says the wages of sin is death not hell fire.

Why did Adam and Eve the first sinners not go to hell fire?


Do you know Jesus went to hell?

I'm sure you don't know because your version of hell isn't what the Bible teaches. Your version of hell teaches a fiery torment while the Bible says otherwise.

You are free to package your church members, yourself, and your pastor for a bible study if you want to know the truth.

You are welcome.

But the Bible says Jesus preached to the spirits in hell...compared with your expiation that the dead have no senses, how could Jesus then have preached to them?

You must be talking about 1Peter 3:19 that was erroneously interpreted.
Jesus preached to the spirits IN PRISON not the spirits IN HELL Sir!
This simply means the wicked spirits that came down to make materialised bodies and had sex with female humans {Genesis 6:1-4 compare to 1Peter 3:20} this rebellious angels now know that they can be destroyed because Jesus who is also a mighty spirit was dead for three consecutive days. So it was his demise that sends a fearful message to them.

SmartyPants:

But the Bible says Jesus preached to the spirits in hell...compared with your expiation that the dead have no senses, how could Jesus then have preached to them?

MaxInDHouse:
You must be talking about 1Peter 3:19 that was erroneously interpreted.
Jesus preached to the spirits IN PRISON not the spirits IN HELL Sir!
This simply means the wicked spirits that came down to make materialised bodies and had sex with female humans {Genesis 6:1-4 compare to 1Peter 3:20} this rebellious angels now know that they can be destroyed because Jesus who is also a mighty spirit was dead for three consecutive days. So it was his demise that sends a fearful message to them.

Thanks for your kind response. This seems to be the right interpretation.

I still have doubts. For instance specific references are made to the sorts of punishments that will be experienced by the unrighteous for example:

1. Weeping and gnashing of teeth
2. Eternal torment with brimstone

Completely dead beings cannot weep nor can they be in torment.

SmartyPants:

Thanks for your kind response. This seems to be the right interpretation.
I still have doubts. For instance specific references are made to the sorts of punishments that will be experienced by the unrighteous for example:
1. Weeping and gnashing of teeth
2. Eternal torment with brimstone
Completely dead beings cannot weep nor can they be in torment.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth was what Jesus said about the Jewish religious critics antagonizing his ministry, he is telling them that all their mockery and antagonism will end in their graves when they're gone for good.
Eternal torment and brimstone would have no effect on dead beings so you can't find these two in the same sentence anywhere in the scriptures.
Eternal torment is when people remember the act leading to the destruction of rebellious ones it always ring a bell in our hearts.
Brimstone is what Israelites always add to the valley behind Jerusalem where they often throw all the things they don't want to remember (the valley is called GEHENNA) so Jesus is hereby telling them that God will forget them after their death just as they often do to things thrown into that valley!

Some translators interpreted Gehenna and Grave as Hellfire, this is where most unsuspected Bible readers find very difficult to grasp!

MaxInDHouse:


Weeping and gnashing of teeth was what Jesus said about the Jewish religious critics antagonizing his ministry, he is telling them that all their mockery and antagonism will end in their graves when they're gone for good.
Eternal torment and brimstone would have no effect on dead beings so you can't find these two in the same sentence anywhere in the scriptures.
Eternal torment is when people remember the act leading to the destruction of rebellious ones it always ring a bell in our hearts.
Brimstone is what Israelites always add to the valley behind Jerusalem where they often throw all the things they don't want to remember (the valley is called GEHENNA) so Jesus is hereby telling them that God will forget them after their death just as they often do to things thrown into that valley!

Some translators interpreted Gehenna and Grave as Hellfire, this is where most unsuspected Bible readers find very difficult to grasp!

The last line is not in dispute. But you have not supported your preceding statements with any evidence. For example:

Weeping and gnashing of teeth was what Jesus said about the Jewish religious critics antagonizing his ministry, he is telling them that all their mockery and antagonism will end in their graves when they're gone for good.


That does not seem consistent because Jesus said the weeping and gnashing would happen after the judgment. Weeping and gnashing of teeth was something Jesus said would happen to those who are cast into outer darkness.

The particular translation that leads to the use of the word hell may not be clear to us but what is clear is the consistency of a fiery place as a place of punishment.

For example, in Matt 25:41, Jesus clearly sys--int he parable of the goats and sheep, that there is a fiery place prepared for the devil and his cohort, and that wicked/evil people will be cast therein.

So maybe that is the lake of fire and not a hell, but contextually, there is consistency in that evil doers will suffer effer torment in a fiery place.

Jesus always speak in PARABLES so whoever wants to understand Jesus' utterances must first know what God said about judgment in the beginning.
God never told Adam you will continue to suffer after you're dead rather what God told the first and foremost sinner is a return to non-existence {Genesis 2:17, 3:19} so when people die they've paid the full amount of their error {Romans 6:7} immortality doesn't belong to the evildoers but righteous! Romans 6:23

So for anyone to grasp Jesus' utterances you must be conversant with what God had in mind from inception ~ prove yourself useful and live or prove to be worthless and return to dust.

There wasn't any other option in the beginning

SmartyPants:


The last line is not in dispute. But you have not supported your preceding statements with any evidence. For example:

Weeping and gnashing of teeth was what Jesus said about the Jewish religious critics antagonizing his ministry, he is telling them that all their mockery and antagonism will end in their graves when they're gone for good.


That does not seem consistent because Jesus said the weeping and gnashing would happen after the judgment. Weeping and gnashing of teeth was something Jesus said would happen to those who are cast into outer darkness.

The particular translation that leads to the use of the word hell may not be clear to us but what is clear is the consistency of a fiery place as a place of punishment.

For example, in Matt 25:41, Jesus clearly sys--int he parable of the goats and sheep, that there is a fiery place prepared for the devil and his cohort, and that wicked/evil people will be cast therein.

So maybe that is the lake of fire and not a hell, but contextually, there is consistency in that evil doers will suffer effer torment in a fiery place.

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus always speak in PARABLES so whoever wants to understand Jesus' utterances must first know what God said about judgment in the beginning.
God never told Adam you will continue to suffer after you're dead rather what God told the first and foremost sinner is a return to non-existence {Genesis 2:17, 3:19} so when people die they've paid the full amount of their error {Romans 6:7} immortality doesn't belong to the evildoers but righteous! Romans 6:23

So for anyone to grasp Jesus' utterances you must be conversant with what God had in mind from inception ~ prove yourself useful and live or prove to be worthless and return to dust.

There wasn't any other option in the beginning

That sounds good. Indeed it is consistent with some other scriptures such as John 3:16.

However you have only addressed what you believe Jesus could not be saying. But what do you then believe He was actually saying?

Even if you say He was only speaking in a parable, the lesson was clear, being that the same fate awaits the evil doers as does the devil and his angels.

So what common fate is that?

SmartyPants:


That sounds good. Indeed it is consistent with some other scriptures such as John 3:16.

However you have only addressed what you believe Jesus could not be saying. But what do you then believe He was actually saying?

Jesus is the brain behind the Bible though he served as the mouthpiece of God Almighty in transmitting the message to imperfect humans, so every single word in the Bible is in Jesus' brains that's why he is fittingly called "the word of God" {John 1:1} he has been with God from the beginning {John 1:2} so he knew what God can and cannot do. Jesus knew his father can't stand the sight of excruciating pains for his creatures! Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5

As for the Devil and his cohorts (demons) they're the main subjects of everlasting torment because they have the ability to continue living since their own existence doesn't depend on destructible bodies like our own that's subjected to oldage, sickness and death. So while these creatures have been living right from the beginning till now, they're tormented each moment they remember that they've been disconnected from the source of their existence.
But that's just normal fear, what is tormenting them mostly now is when Jesus the first and foremost spirit creature they all knew as second in command to the Almighty was DEAD for three consecutive days!
There is no doubt that their destruction is possible!
Again they were living as part of the heavenly family of God's Organization until Jesus and their one time brothers who are also angels like them evicted them from their abode, and immediately Jesus came to the earth resurrected all the born again Christians who were former humans (lesser beings) to replace them. This is another cause for torment!
Now to worsen their situation all the false religions they initiated failed woefully as faithful humans are leaving false religions and flocking into God's Organization which Jesus as a mighty spirit being began directing since 1914.

They're now desperate than ever that's why most religious groups on this planet today are complaining about prophecies from Jehovah's Witnesses, it's humans that are confused about pure worship, spirits know the one and only group practicing pure worship!
So when you hear critics bitterly complaining against Jehovah's Witnesses saying "in so so year they prophesy this or they prophesy that" know that it's not this people that are really disturbed about whatever Jehovah's Witnesses are saying rather it's those spirits they're unknowingly worshiping that are trying to figure out what next is going to happen to them, these wicked spirits knew perfectly that JWs are the only group getting divine direction {1Peter 1:12} but Jehovah is smarter than all his creation, even Jesus was never told the day or hour God will declare judgment {Matthew 24:36} WHY? Because Jesus' love for humans is great {Proverbs 8:31} and his father knew it, there's no way Jesus won't reveal it to his friends after seeing how much they loved to be with him! John 15:15

So think of how painful and tormented this one time beloved spirit creatures are feeling right now, seeing that they've been disconnected from God completely yet imperfect humans who are lesser beings are getting timely information from God! Matthew 24:45

Even if you say He was only speaking in a parable, the lesson was clear, being that the same fate awaits the evil doers as does the devil and his angels.

So what common fate is that?

MaxInDHouse:


Jesus is the brain behind the Bible though he served as the mouthpiece of God Almighty in transmitting the message to imperfect humans, so every single word in the Bible is in Jesus' brains that's why he is fittingly called "the word of God" {John 1:1} he has been with God from the beginning {John 1:2} so he knew what God can and cannot do. Jesus knew his father can't stand the sight of excruciating pains for his creatures! Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5

As for the Devil and his cohorts (demons) they're the main subjects of everlasting torment because they have the ability to continue living since their own existence doesn't depend on destructible bodies like our own that's subjected to oldage, sickness and death. So while these creatures have been living right from the beginning till now, they're tormented each moment they remember that they've been disconnected from the source of their existence.
But that's just normal fear, what is tormenting them mostly now is when Jesus the first and foremost spirit creature they all knew as second in command to the Almighty was DEAD for three consecutive days!
There is no doubt that their destruction is possible!
Again they were living as part of the heavenly family of God's Organization until Jesus and their one time brothers who are also angels like them evicted them from their abode, and immediately Jesus came to the earth resurrected all the born again Christians who were former humans (lesser beings) to replace them. This is another cause for torment!
Now to worsen their situation all the false religions they initiated failed woefully as faithful humans are leaving false religions and flocking into God's Organization which Jesus as a mighty spirit being began directing since 1914.

They're now desperate than ever that's why most religious groups on this planet today are complaining about prophecies from Jehovah's Witnesses, it's humans that are confused about pure worship, spirits know the one and only group practicing pure worship!
So when you hear critics bitterly complaining against Jehovah's Witnesses saying "in so so year they prophesy this or they prophesy that" know that it's not this people that are really disturbed about whatever Jehovah's Witnesses are saying rather it's those spirits they're unknowingly worshiping that are trying to figure out what next is going to happen to them, these wicked spirits knew perfectly that JWs are the only group getting divine direction {1Peter 1:12} but Jehovah is smarter than all his creation, even Jesus was never told the day or hour God will declare judgment {Matthew 24:36} WHY? Because Jesus' love for humans is great {Proverbs 8:31} and his father knew it, there's no way Jesus won't reveal it to his friends after seeing how much they loved to be with him! John 15:15

So think of how painful and tormented this one time beloved spirit creatures are feeling right now, seeing that they've been disconnected from God completely yet imperfect humans who are lesser beings are getting timely information from God! Matthew 24:45

Sorry, how does this answer my question?

My question is, is it not true that there is a common end referred to when Matthew 25:41 indicates that both the evildoer and the devil will be thrown into a fiery place?

SmartyPants:

Sorry, how does this answer my question?
My question is, is it not true that there is a common end referred to when Matthew 25:41 indicates that both the evildoer and the devil will be thrown into a fiery place?

Destruction is their common end nothing more!

The only difference is evildoers will spend less than 100 years (in active life) if God's judgment has not come while rebellious angels will continue to roam about in fear not knowing when they will be exterminated!

MaxInDHouse:


Destruction is their common end nothing more!

The only difference is evildoers will spend less than 100 years (in active life) if God's judgment has not come while rebellious angels will continue to roam about in fear not knowing when they will be exterminated!

Do you have a biblical reference?

SmartyPants:

Do you have a biblical reference?

It's in the other post but i'll cite it again!

The rebellious angels were disconnected from God {2Peter 2:4; Jude 6} so they're roaming about possessing human bodies to get a relief {Matthew 9:32} and when Jesus dispossess them they feel tormented {Matthew 8:29; Mark 5:7} and they keep observing whatever Jehovah's Witnesses Organization say to know about the judgment day! 1Peter 1:12

MaxInDHouse:


It's in the other post but i'll cite it again!

The rebellious angels were disconnected from God {2Peter 2:4; Jude 6} so they're roaming about possessing human bodies to get a relief {Matthew 9:32} and when Jesus dispossess them they feel tormented {Matthew 8:29; Mark 5:7} and they keep observing whatever Jehovah's Witnesses Organization say to know about the judgment day! 1Peter 1:12

2 Peter 2:4 clearly says the angels who sinned were put into gloomy dungeons in hell (hades maybe). These ones are the ones who had improper human contact and are caged already. They are not roaming anywhere.

However, the devil is not caged and there are demons with him that are not caged. Of these, Jesus says, in Matthew 25:41that they would be sent into a lake of fire. This is not even a parable. This is a teaching of what will happen at the judgment. The events spoken of here are yet to happen. Thus, again, the punished angels spoke on in 2 Peter 2:4, are not the ones referred to here-- rather, all of the devils cohort is referred to.

You are saying, now, that no, they will be roaming eternally. No scripture you posted there says what you have said.

Furthermore, you are now saying there is no lake of fire?

SmartyPants:

2 Peter 2:4 clearly says the angels who sinned were put into gloomy dungeons in hell (hades maybe). These ones are the ones who had improper human contact and are caged already. They are not roaming anywhere.

It's a free world!
I'm only telling you what i beleive so it's not under compulsory you're convinced. Those who will believe are already doing so.
God's word revealed what Satan did that made God pronounced judgment on this angel, and God's word also told us what His other spirit sons did that made Him condemned them, apart from these two instances the rest of the angels are ever loyal to God!

However, the devil is not caged and there are demons with him that are not caged. Of these, Jesus says, in Matthew 25:41that they would be sent into a lake of fire. This is not even a parable. This is a teaching of what will happen at the judgment. The events spoken of here are yet to happen. Thus, again, the punished angels spoke on in 2 Peter 2:4, are not the ones referred to here-- rather, all of the devils cohort is referred to.

God doesn't have a different punishment for any angel, where you're getting it wrong is thinking the word caged referred to what humans like you and i would conclude when we hear such a thing!
We are talking about spirits here, their own caging doesn't mean puting them in one place Sir it simply means they don't have access to God anymore, they can go to anywhere else but no communication between them and God. So they're only hearing from Satan who is directing them that's why they're referred to as his angels God never created any angel for Satan neither did Satan create any by himself!

You are saying, now, that no, they will be roaming eternally. No scripture you posted there says what you have said.
Furthermore, you are now saying there is no lake of fire?

I never told you eternally because they will soon be destroyed but since they don't grow old, get sick or die naturally like humans, they keep roaming about! Matthew 12:43

So it's not compulsory you accept this i'm only telling you what i and my global family of peace loving worshipers beleive {John 17:17, 20-23 compare to 1Corinthians 1:10} please pitch your tent anywhere else, it's a free world!

MaxInDHouse:

It's a free world!
I'm only telling you what i beleive so it's not under compulsory you're convinced. Those who will believe are already doing so.
God's word revealed what Satan did that made God pronounced judgment on this angel, and God's word also told us what His other spirit sons did that made Him condemned them, apart from these two instances the rest of the angels are ever loyal to God!


God doesn't have a different punishment for any angel, where you're getting it wrong is thinking the word caged referred to what humans like you and i would conclude when we hear such a thing!
We are talking about spirits here, their own caging doesn't mean puting them in one place Sir it simply means they don't have access to God anymore, they can go to anywhere else but no communication between them and God. So they're only hearing from Satan who is directing them that's why they're referred to as his angels God never created any angel for Satan neither did Satan create any by himself!


I never told you eternally because they will soon be destroyed but since they don't grow old, get sick or die naturally like humans, they keep roaming about! Matthew 12:43

So it's not compulsory you accept this i'm only telling you what i and my global family of peace loving worshipers beleive {John 17:17, 20-23 compare to 1Corinthians 1:10} please pitch your tent anywhere else, it's a free world!

Okay, thanks for your contribution. My parting comment/observation to you is that you take liberties with construction which you might want to think about.

For instance, when the Bible says repeatedly, that a certain group of Angels are caged in hell, deciding to give it another meaning of your own, makes me wonder what your motive is.

Learn objectivity. All the best.

The highlighted is my parting words with you!

When you read something but you can't find any positivity resulting from your perception of what you read, try another interpretation.
God's word exerts power {Hebrews 4:12} and it's working out something benefitial that people can SEE {Matthew 5:13-16} to ascertain the gathering of God's true worshipers. James 2:18-26
So if your interpretation doesn't yield positivity know that you're on the wrong ship! Daniel 12:10

May you have PEACE!

SmartyPants:

Okay, thanks for your contribution. My parting comment/observation to you is that you take liberties with construction which you might want to think about.
For instance, when the Bible says repeatedly, that a certain group of Angels are caged in hell, deciding to give it another meaning of your own, makes me wonder what your motive is.
Learn objectivity. All the best.

SmartyPants:


Okay, thanks for your contribution. My parting comment/observation to you is that you take liberties with construction which you might want to think about.

For instance, when the Bible says repeatedly, that a certain group of Angels are caged in hell, deciding to give it another meaning of your own, makes me wonder what your motive is.

Learn objectivity. All the best.

Bros, no rebellious angel was caged in hell.
The actual Greek word in 2 Peter 2:4 is "Tartarus", not hell/hellfire.
Brother Max is correct.
Please read up the Screenshots and use your Bible Greek lexicon.
Shalom.

Janosky:


Bros, no rebellious angel was caged in hell.
The actual Greek word in 2 Peter 2:4 is "Tartarus", not hell/hellfire.
Brother Max is correct.
Please read up the Screenshots and use your Bible Greek lexicon.
Shalom.

When joining a conversation that has gone a long way try to read and understand the issues. We are not debating over the meaning of hell or whether it is tarturus or some other place. In fact I've since made this clear.

The narrow issue is, are the disobedient Angela being caged? And the broader issue is what is the final fate of the devil and his cohort?

And if you look at the second screenshot you posted the answer to the narrow question is clearly yes.

I know his type, he doesn't just want to hear any form of worship that's going to make him loyal and obedient!

Janosky:

Bros, no rebellious angel was caged in hell.
The actual Greek word in 2 Peter 2:4 is "Tartarus", not hell/hellfire.
Brother Max is correct.
Please read up the Screenshots and use your Bible Greek lexicon.
Shalom.

SmartyPants:


Sorry, how does this answer my question?

My question is, is it not true that there is a common end referred to when Matthew 25:41 indicates that both the evildoer and the devil will be thrown into a fiery place?

*
Matthew 25:41
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

*
Please, Read /study Jude 1:7 , the "eternal fire" prepared for the devil is the same eternal fire prepared against Sodom & Gomorrah , a warning example to evildoers.

*
Luke17:29, According to Jesus Christ, What is the "eternal fire" of Sodom & Gomorrah?

*
Bros, is Sodom & Gomorrah suffering eternal torture & torment today?

*
Bros, According to Jesus Christ @ Luke 17:25-30 = 2 Thess1:7-9 & 2 Peter 2:5-6 do see that the fate of evildoers in the time of Noah's day and Sodom/Gomorrah will be repeated by Jesus Christ ?

*
Luke 17:25-30,2 Pe 2:5-6 , Jude 1:7, 2Thess1:7-9 did Jesus Christ and Peter confirm that the destruction of Noah's day & Sodom & Gomorrah destruction "set a pattern , a precedent for the punishment of evildoers "?

*
Luke 17:25-30, 2 Pe 2:5-6 ,Jude 1:7, 2Thess1:7-9, did God put evildoers in a fiery place of eternal torture and torment?

*
Luke 17:25-30,2 Pe 2:5-6 ,Jude 1:7, 2Thess1:7-9, is the Bible truth very much clearer to you that "eternal fire" means " everlasting destruction"?

SmartyPants:


When joining a conversation that has gone a long way try to read and understand the issues. We are not debating over the meaning of hell or whether it is tarturus or some other place. In fact I've since made this clear.

The narrow issue is, are the disobedient Angels being caged? And the broader issue is what is the final fate of the devil and his cohort?

And if you look at the second screenshot you posted the answer to the narrow question is clearly yes.

Bros, The Screenshots have treated both points you raised.
But let me make an illustration....

After Adam and Eve sinned, do you know that God caged them ?
They lost all the benefits and privileges attached to their obedience in the Garden of Eden , no more business as usual.

God drove them out of the beautiful Garden & stationed angels to prevent them from access to the tree of life, which would have given them eternal life.

Your use of the word "Cage" if i understand you clearly, means restrictions/ loss of privileges.

Bros, going by your Bible's account of Revelation 12:7-9, Satan was caged.
Satan can't have access to God Almighty like he had in Job 2:1-2 or Job 1:6..

When Liverpool cage Messi in the 2nd Leg of 2018/2019 UEFA Champions League, at Anfield,
Bros, you know the final outcome nau

Your Bible says the lake of fire means 2nd death, that is God's final execution of judgement = everlasting destruction without Resurrection.

Luke 17:25-30, Jude 1:7, 2 Peter 2:5-6, God executed judgement on Evildoers of Noah's day and Sodom/Gomorrah- a warning example of Jesus forthcoming execution of judgement,
2 Thess1:7-9, the same fate reserved for the Devil, Matthew 25:41.
God's case no appeal. He means "Enough is Enough"!

Shalom.