@Okababa and Olowo tree and all in general

Beware of the leaven of the scribes and the Pharisees, men like them who through their many man made traditions and teachings impose a heavy burden upon their followers.
The yoke of Jesus is very light and tender and very refreshing, not burdensome.

You all have been set free by the ransom of the Lord Jesus, STOP BEIGN SLAVES TO A MAN/MEN

And for comments like these

okababa:

any church, person or pastor that is not in total agreement with pastor kumuyi/deeper life is not from God and will go to hell fire if they fail to repent.
As for me, pastor Kumuyi is the only man of God in africa and possibly the world. Also note that you don't have to agree with this statement as the bible say that whosoever will be a friend of God will be an enemy of the world so , that a lot of people hate deeperlife or pastor Kumuyi is enough confirmation that the man is realy from God

People should keep decieving themselves. They should keep on telling themselves this as consolation.


Anybody that has any idea of what christianity entails would do just as the Christians in Beroa did and were commended by Paul.

Stop enslaving yourselves to man made doctrines

So far, claims of Ist Timoty, nor Ist Peter have lended no hand to arguments that a woman can become an Overseer.

There is nothing in the scriptures that allows room for Women Overseers.[color=#990000][/color]

All these arguments would be meaningless if we dont first accept this points from the bible

1 Overseers are to exercise (note this has nothing to do with usurping ) authority over all within the congregation.

Women cannot exercise that same authority. (This is not a question of usurping, but cannot exercise the same authority that Overseers do)

2 the work of Overseers leaves no room at all for a person who are not allowed to, or are restricted when it comes to issues of Shepharding, exercising authority, teaching, issuing directives etc, THINGS WOMEN IN THE CONGREGATION ARE RESTRICTED ON.

Apart from the fact that this passage you have been quoting as if it had an atom of support for your claims lists some duties women do within the congregation (Non of which suggests serving as an Overseer)


Your claim that some bible translations mistranslated the point that Paul was trying to make and suggesting that those verses ment not dominating but could suggest that Both Men and Women can all be Overseers is completely Flawed and Spurious at best

Because, in those same verses

1) Women are asked to learn in Submission
Overseers take the lead in the congregation

2)Women cannot deliberate publicly on Congregational issues
Overseers deliberate on and take decisions for the congregation, and the congregation follows their lead.

3) Women are not allowed to teach men
Overseers are mandated to teach the whole congregation, including Men

4) Women discuss congregational issues with their husbands.
.
Overseers issue directives to the whole congregation.

5) Overseers [color=#990000]excercise authority and shephard the whole flock. (its not a question of usurping. Women CANNOT exercise that same authority)[[/color]color=#990000][/color]


So any claim that those verses somehow was suggesting that women could serve as Overseers with Men but should not usurp it but that the point was misrepresented is wrong.

@Sister Pilgrim, you have been quoting this chapter again and again

can you please tell me how any of the above support your point of women overseers? (bearing in mind examples of duties that Paul listed women perform within the congregation. No role of Overseer or even anything remotely near that)?

Because obviously Paul had advised Timothy on how to deal with everybody in the congregation, older men, older women, younger men and younger women in verse 1 and 2

Later, in verse 17 he refered to the Overseers in the congregation which would include spiritually mature Men both Young and Old. (That would obviously include Men like Timothy who were of a young age but spiritually mature)

1 Timothy 5
Advice About Widows, Elders and Slaves
1Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
3Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7Give the people these instructions, too, so that no one may be open to blame. 8If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

9No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband,[a] 10and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

11As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. 14So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

16If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need.

17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,"[b] and "The worker deserves his wages."[c] 19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

21I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

22Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

23Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

24The sins of some men are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them. 25In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not cannot be hidden.

2 @ Pilgrim i dont think you understand what overseers are and what they are required to do in the congregation.

3 Old convenant regulations are not binding on the new. I cite examples from the old testament because of
A. Some people on this forum claiming that women excllusion from position of overseer = sexism. I cited examples of were God excluded women from certain positions in the past.

B Some lessons could be found in those passages that is stll valuable.


4 And your claim on Ist Tim 5:1 il come back tommorow and look into that

@Sis Pilgrim

I appreciate your taking time to make this debate continue. I like the way you handle a debate for the most part

But to show you the futility of your arguments in ths particular case and why i feel this debate is becoming pointless

1 You have repeatedly based your argument on this
Quote from Pilgrim
Please sage, don't put words in the apostle Paul's mouth. He never said that a woman was not to "EXERCISE" authority over a man. Rather, he said that a woman should not "USURP" authority over the man - big difference here.

"Exercising authority" and "usurping authority" are not the same things; and please don't make them sound like the same so that you can make apostle Paul say what he did not say!



1 Cor 14: 33-35

33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints[/b], 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


1 Tim 2:11,12
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 [b]I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.


Yes the apostle does TEACH that a woman CANNOT have authority over a man

So sister pls stop accusing me of setting a standard

I am not apostle Paul

ThiefOfHearts:

Hello sage

Hey @ Thief

How you de? Im just de hang in there. Kind of having a lil bit of a stress ful summer in DC. Howz the big apple . I just dropped a comment for you in the religion section. Too much wahala there though.

Good to see were still kool though despite the whole religion commotion

Whatz up with you this summer anywayz

Now the above was all a biblical discussion.Most women in here might think im sexist and narrow minded.

On the contrary im one of the most open minded guys you can ever come accross. (ie why for my first 1 1/2 years on nairaland i advoided the religious section. Too much blind arguments and pointless debates.)

TV01's concise manner persuaded me to start posting here. (Even though he would disappear after drawing me into some merry go round )


@Thief

You probably dislike me a lot more now. That Chauvunistic, sexist goat you will probably be wondering . To even imagine i thought he was cool at any point


well the truth is even if I think some things in the bible are a bit odd or even outrageous, non of us is in a position to re-edit it to suit our inclinations and thoughts.


If we were in a secular agument, then it would be different, way different

So my point is this.


The apostle Paul made it crystal clear that

IN NO CONGREGATION OF TRUE WORSHIPERS OF GOD CAN A WOMAN EXERCISE AUTHORITY OVER OR TEACH A MAN

Only compliance to this standard would bring God's approval.

Regardless of how Me or TV01 or anybody else sees this passages of the bible, nobody can reconstruct it to mean something else or try to use to bible to support a contradictory view

So Biblically the bottom line to this debate is this

True Christians comply to biblical standards
Others do what they like and try to use the bible to justify a stand that contradicts the bible

The answer to the above can be seen as

Divine Principle and arraingment.

Regardless of good intentions, good abilities, neccesity etc Divine principle remains the same.

For eg In Uzaahs case, God had decreed that anybody apart from a certain group of people who touched the ark would die.
Regardless of Uzahh having good intentions or not in trying to save the ark he was going to die for overstepping his place in God's arraingment.

Saul having a good motive ie to save God's people was not the point either. He overstepped his place also in God's divine arraingment and had to pay for it.

@ all

The problem with debates like this is that the people all agreed to use the bible as their standard but now want to water down some parts of it that they dont like to suit their own agenda.

If this was a secular debate, then that would be completely different.

We can then measure merits and demerits whys and hows etc.

But when you claim the bible as your standard you do not question its stand on anything.
Compliance to it is what is required for those who want to.


The only reason im saying the above is that from a human and secular standpoint certain Divine standards have no answer and might even seem unreasonable. For eg

1 What made the family of Moses (Aaron and his sons) the only ones that are fit to enter into the presence of the ark?

2 What made Moses the only one fit to see the presence of God

3 Why is it that well qualified Men like Korah, Dathan and Abiram who were not trying to insult God but felt that Moses was presumpteously hoarding everything for only his family and not allowing them to do more in the service of God were executed by Him?
From a secular standpoint was Korah's gain saying wrong and did Moses stand not look presumpteous?

4 Why would God appoint only males to Serve as Priests, Levites and Kings?
Can women not also lead a nation, lead in worship? Do women not posses the same capabilities to do the same things?

5 Why would God strike down Uzaah for trying to save the ark from falling off to the bewilderment of a whole nation ?

6 Why is Family headship giving only to men? Do women not possses the ability to head a house?

7 Why would God judge Saul (Who was not trying to deliberately insult God) so harshly for acting to save his people who were almost beign overrun?
What Saul did was it not reasonable from a human standpoint? (Whic man would just stand and watch and see his whole house go up in flames without acting?)

The reasons why the holy spirit would not appoint women is crystal clear (A similar reason as to why Jesus chose only Male apostles even with committed and faithful Women all around him) was

Divine arraingment.

A woman overseer would have to have taught and exercised authority over men (In the same vein that both the apostles and first century overseers exercised authority over Men, Women and Children). This is incompactible with the will of God for His congregated people as expressed in His inspired writing.


@ Sister Pilgrim

Come to look at it though.

Godly women like those faithful disciples of Jesus and the fist century female disciples

Never agitated to become apostles, never claimed to have the same authority as the apostles, never highlighted the short comings of Jesus male apostles and disciples to make a case for their own inclusion (what a man can do, a woman can also do mentality), never sought to claim a position of oversight which the holy spirit did not leave open to them, did not misquote the account of Joel and Deborah to justify what God's holy spirit does not approve of etc


They recognized their place in divine arraingment and complied to it.
They had God's blessing in full measure

The example i made with marriage is this

Gen 2:24

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh

Ephisians 5:28

In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body.

1st Corintians 7:3

The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

Ephesians 6:1,2

1Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2"Honor your father and mother"—[/b]which is the first commandment with a promise



Should somebody make claims that this means that the two are one and can play the sam roles.

Even with the above scriptures, other passages compliment this by showing that

[b]The Man exercises headship over a woman and the woman is not allowed to exercise headship over a man in the family.

Headship in the family with the male mate present is only Preserved for the Male


(I am bewildered by arguments raised by some people here claiming that a male only Overseer appointment would mean a male only world and would be discrimintory and sexist.

1 How come a male only headship arraingment (ie with the male mate beign present) in the family is not accused of the same thing by these same people.

2 How come a woman can exercise authority over, instruct, teach, and preside over their husbands in the congregation when they cannot at home?

@Pilgrim

Bible passages are complimentary, not contradictory. The apostle Paul could not have been inspired by God to contradict himself

If there was any room for Female Overseers, the bible would automatically contradict itself.

(Ive already listed this things b/4)

1 Overseers are mandated to teach, instruct, preside and have authority over Men, Women and Children

2 Women, under divine standards cannot exercise authority over or teach Men (The primary commision of overseers) within the congregation (This is an unchangable divine standard that cannot be watered down)

3 A person not teaching, shepharding or exercising authority over the whole Congregation ie Men, Women and Childeren is NOT an overseer (They could be given other responsibilities) and since women are not approved by God to do that, then they cannot be Overseers Simple

The bogus use of a word that can both be used to represent a person advanced in age, as well a person holding an office and other foms of usage would not change an already set divine standard neither would it contradict the rest of the bible, neither would Paul contradict himself.

This topic looks retarded from the time i saw it. Was not worth spending time on

But why must i comment on everything AC Milan related?

Seems like i need to check into rehab for MilanManiaism .

This is getting so bad i cant even distinguish b/w the sports and romance section

Joey82:

I thought this topic was rested, we can argue till thy kingdom come, every body will still hold on to his/her point. One basic truth is that virginity enhances one's dignity,even players (especially males), are proud of meeting a lady that is still a virgin.

As for the men, it is hard to proove whether they deflowered or not owing to the way their sex organs are made, but imagine Kaka (AC Milan) proudly announced on his wedding eve that He was still a virgin, even if He was lying, everybody looked at him with an eye of dignity.

That Kaka part.

i wonder if any guy really envied him or looked at him with dignity. Most Milan fans cant even understand why he got married so early. Some even think it was rash and uncalled for.

But to a certain part i agree with you. Men use double standards when it comes to sex and judging women. A man who has had 70 women does not see himself as beign different from one that has only had one.

Ironically that same guy sees a woman that has had one sex partner as worse and undignified when compared to one that has yet to experience sex. .


Its probably a function of soceity though. Which can explain why African men dont like to marry a woman that has been married before (Probably coz her dignity has been taken away and she has been defiled by another man

@Pilgrim

Let me clarify this to you

1 Men and Women who remain faithful expect the same reward.

2 The commision giving to all Christians is given to both men and women

3 God does not view men as beign more important than women in anyway.


But as Paul noted, God has divinely arrainged for how the congregation(like other things) is to be run.

For example take a look at marriage

Both man and woman are one in God's eyes. They are as of one body . The sexual intrest of one does not take precedence over the other and children are instructed to obey their father and mother in the same measure etc.

But note that within that ONE BODY, there is an unchangable arraingment for headship. The fact that they are one does not mean any part of that body can exercise headship over the other.
Headship is still reserved for that one part of the body ((Regardless of the fact that the two seen as one)

It would be[b] erronous [/b] for anybody to quote scriptures citing where God instructed kids to obey and respect their parents in the same manner, and where God says the two are now one body to suggest that headship is also applicable to the female part of this one body.

Within that one body, God reserves headship for only males.

The two are one yes, but they are not both allowed to perform the same roles. The wife does not become head over her husband.

The congregation is one body but their are guidelines when it comes to those appointed by holy spirit to take the lead

@Pilgrim

Yes the scriptures does teach that only Men can be Overseers (Simply because the work Overseers do, which includes presiding over, teaching and having authority over the whole congregation ie Men women and children, is incompactible with what women are allowed to do .


Need i remind you that you were the one that posted the definitions of the Greek word Presbuteros

1 It can be used to refer to people who are advanced in age

2 It can be used to refer to a person in position of oversight

When Paul refered to older men and women , as well as younger men and women in his letter to Timothy, he clearly was not refering to Congregation Overseers. He advised Timothy on how to relate with all in the congregation
(Given the fact that Timothy was a young man and and most likely an Overseer. Beign appointed an overseer was not a function of age, but that of spiritual maturity under the guidiance of the holy spirit)


You mentioned about Prophesying.

Where is that prophesying and praying done? The bible nowhere mentioned that if a woman was to Prophesy and pray on behalf of the congregation in the presence of Men in the congregation then,
It would be erronous to read that kind of meaning into that passage


And what does this have to do with Overseers

And of note is this

"IN ALL THE CONGREGATIONS OF THE SAINTS" (All of true christianity)

This left no room for any expansion or reinterpretation of the bible to include women overseers.

@TV01

we are all in a merry go round.

Sister Pilgrim, Tayo D and Stimulus all erronously based their arguments mainly on this belief


Quote from pilgrim

The Bible never said that women are not to "have" authority - rather, it said that they should not "usurp" authority over the men!

but The bible says this

1 Tim 2:11,12
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 [b]I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.


and this

1 Cor 14: 33-35

33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
      As in all the congregations of the saints[/b], 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

@TV01

This is a little off topic but i was watching a CNN show 2 days ago and i the host spoke about a study which now showed that Men who let their wives take charge over the household are happier than men who reflect the long standing tradition of Men beign the head of the household . (Probably suggesting that women beign the head of the household with the man present is a better way to run the family than men beign the head of the household ) ( Clearly against biblical principles too )


I thought about it for a moment and i said wow very soon people would probably say that the bible is a good book that is out of date and needs to be revised because its heavily reflects Jewish Patriachal culture. Who knows at this rate, science might even soon 'prove' that beign homosexual is a function of nature and in a persons genes just like hetrosexuality and that Paul did not have enough medical advances to understand sexuality so he classified it as wrong

@Sister Pilgrim

I just dont want to run around the same thing over and over again when the bible is very clear on that issue. Il be brief and clear as possible

Given that the Bible does not contradict itself

1 Overseers are mandated and are the ones that teach, instruct and have authority over the whole congregation. The whole congregation also is subject to their authority

2 Women are not allowed to have authority over, preside or teach men within the congregation, therefore cannot serve as overseers

3 I brought up the issue of the Priests and Levites and Kings because Tayo D and Stimulus were claiming that somehow (Against biblical standards) it would amount to discrimination and sexism for women not to be allowed to serve as Overseers despite their seeing what the bible clearly stated
I cited that as an example in True worship were for thousands of years, God excluded women from certain positions and that did not mean it was discrimination. It was simply His will and all the women had to comply to that standard.

4 The word used as elders depends on the context in which it was used. Elders can refer to older people. Paul was admonishing Older Men, Older women, Younger Men and Younger women on how to behave.  That had nothing to do with Bishops/Overseers in the congregation

5 There were prophetesses back in Israelite times. The prophetesses you mentioned like Miriam could only lead and preside over fellow women in worship. Deborah was stated as acting as a Judge and Stimulus jumped on this to say that she served in the same capacity as male Judges. The bible does not say that. I showed that Male Judges like Samuel, Gidieon etc had the final word and authority, even leading in matters of worship when it came to divine commisions but the bible showed Deborah as relating God's will to a Man and it was the Man, not Deborah, that presided and had authority over that particular commision.

6 The bible is crystal clear on this issue so no need to try to make the Bible look like it contradicts itself, hence resulting in an endless debate.


You are still my Sister though

No Sister  ( All Christians are part of the holy nation, the royal priesthood and the chosen race that offer sacrifices of lips of praise to God. All members of this spiritual nation or priesthood are not Overseers.

The bible lays out clear cut guidelines on qualification for this position of oversight. No if, buts or may be's

[b]God's Word does not contradict itself[/b]

The Final authority on this subject is this


1 Cor 14: 33-35

33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
     As in all the congregations of the saints[/b], 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


1 Tim 2:11,12
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 [b]I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

1Tim 3:1-14   (Note that the role of the man and the woman ARE NOT INTERCHANGABLE)


1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an [b]Overseer,[[/b]a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11 In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12A [b]deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

@Sister pilgrim.

Hmmmmmmnn lets not drag this on and on. It would be pointless

You are still missing the point

1 Overseers are those who teach, instruct, shephard and preside over the congregation and the whole congregation . That was a role the bible made VERY CLEAR WOMEN CANNOT occupy in the congregation. (unless you are talking about roles apart from this)

2 You keep saying Miriam was a prophetess (there were other prophetesses in the bible). Agreed. But who does the bible say she was leading in worship-- Fellow women.

3 You and Stimulus keep saying that Deborah judged in the same capacity as Men.
I listed some of the things that a male Judge did in Israel non of which Deborah did and i noted that Deborah advised a man and it was the Man who was in charge and presided over the campaign, not Deborah.

Who told you Deborah judged in the same capacity as men and why did she not perform the roles that male Judges did but had to call a man to do that? List the things Deborah did and compare them to that of a male judge like Samuel.

4 Men and Women are part of a new holy nation and a royal priesthood offering up sacrifices of praise to God, stop misquoting I Pet chapter 2 . It had nothing to do with qualifications for the position of Overseer.

5 Paul admonished all Christians on how to behave. Both older men and older women. That had nothing to do with qualification for the positions of Overseers in the congregation.

6 Women in the body of Christ are not allowed to exercise authority over men  Short and Simple and since Overseers exercise authority over the whole congregation, women are not aloowed to perform that role.

@sage,

I never expected you'd be such a self-congratulatory loser! Rather than backslap anyone in hope of scoring some sympathy, be a gentleman and go through the texts you either missed, or have deliberately refused to consider. I'm waiting for your answers to the few questions offered you just to see where you're copping out your own 'FOUNDATION'.

hmnnnnnnnnnnnnn Sister, ive gone through the bible and every thing i stated were from bible passages. I never stated a personal opinion in this. Where were women appointed as overseers in the bible and where have women led men in pure worship before?


Please stop making noise. Men who are worth any substance in their manhood don't holla so loud; rather, they calm down and look into the Word and settle their nightmares on what is taught there. You can't just come on board and rascally dismiss the ministries of those women - you didn't appoint them; God did!

[b]Hey Sister, i clearly posted the scriptures for you. Do you want me to post it again? I don't make noise. I highlight and cap posts to place emphasis on main points.

The scriptures is clear on this issue and the bible does not contradict itself. In this my current posts to you i wanted to quote the many scriptures that i cited like i did the last time but the computer that im using does not copy and im too lazy to type all those passages


Take it cool sister no beef .[/b]

@sage,

I've discussed those texts already; could it be possible that you might have something to counter the issues raised thereto?  What did the inspired apostle mean by the term PRESBUTEROS (πρεσβύτερος)?

[b]To whom and where(Mind citing specific scriptures?)[/b]


Good. And the NT clearly indicates that women were also called along with the men to shepherd the Church. Women were called exactly the same term as the male "elders" --PRESBUTEROS (πρεσβύτερος].

No Sister Women WERE NOT called to become shephards along with men. ( Mind Giving scriptural citations of where women were appointed as overseers and shephards?)


That is because you refuse to examine the texts that clearly outline the fact that women are also called to shepherd the Church.

No Sister. i based all my what i posted on the bible. Where do you get yours from and where were women appointed to serve as Overseers[?/b]


Go through the texts again, broaden your scope and take a good look at those other texts you guys have been avoiding all along. It might be very helpful to do so.

[b][b]Open your bible Sister. The role of Overseers in the congregation is clear and the bible makes it clear that women are not allowed to perform that role. Am i missing a text of the bible where women were allowed to be appointed as overseers? [/b]

Hi sage,

Good to read once more from you. Here are a few things you have missed and only tried to push just a few verses in support for a male only leadership in the Church:

1.
This issue has been much discussed; and some people have felt that visiting the OT may be of very little benefit to understanding worship in the NT. However, even when you revisit the issue, I'd like to simply say this:

       In the NT, both males and females are priests together (I Pet. 2:5 & 9)

There's nothing wrong with revisiting the OT worship specifications. The only thing I'd advise here is that we don't forget what the NT says about the fact that both MALES and FEMALES are priests in the CHURCH.


[b][color=#000099]My answer.

Most people on this forum have been misquoting 1 Peter 2:5,9. The issue beign discussed in that chapter (and indeed for most of 1st Peter {PLS READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER}) was NOT the appointment of overseers in the congregation, but the need for all christians to change their way of life to conform to that of those who had been ushered into a new convenant
It was discussing the obligation that now rested on all Christians who have become a part of what Peter described as this spiritual priesthood, chosen race, special possesion or holy nation (to emphasize that through their calling, they are apart from the rest of the world in their primary pursuits and way of life.)
Heb 13:5 CLEARLY SHOWS WHAT KIND OF SACRIFICES CHRISTIANS UNDER THE NEW CONVENANT OFFER ie THE SACRIFICES OF PRAISE TO GOD WHICH BOTH CHRISTIAN MEN AND WOMEN HAVE TO RENDER
HOW DOES 1ST PETER CONTRADICT THE DIVINELY ORDAINED INSTRUCTIONS BY PAUL[/color][/b]2.


This is where it gets really interesting. I'd like you to take a very close look at the examples of the following and perhaps offer us WHY God chose these women to do exactly the same as the men did as far as leadership is concerned:

    (a) Micah 6:4 -- God sending Moses, Aaron and Miriam

My Answer

You keep missing the point sister. The three of them were sent by God, Miriam was a Prophetess YES but what role could they play is the question.

Moses and Aaron LED AND HAD OVERSIGHT OVER THE WHOLE ASSEMBLY OF ISRAEL in matters pertaining to Worship.
Miriam of the other hand could lead ONLY FELLOW WOMEN in worship   

(b) Judges 4 & 5 -- Deborah the prophetess

    (c) 2 Kings 22 & 2 Chron. 34 --  Huldah the prophetess

[b][color=#000099]My answer
To address this issue first we have to take a look at the background of the time of the Judges. (Judges Chap 2) It was a time of disunity in which Israelites for the most part were worshiping false gods. They also disregarded God's instructions and were fighting and killing each other. Things were not at their best
Deborah, like Miriam, was also a prophetess who knew the will of God. But What role could she play in comparison to the male Judges?
Male Judges like Samuel, Gidieon presided over the motions of worship. They led and gave final Instructions and the people were subject to their authority. They gave the final go aheads for wars and had authority to PRESIDE OVER ISSUES and even execute people(Judges 7:15-22, 1st Sam Chap 13-15).
Deborah on the other hand having learnt the will of God, called a Male judge and advised him on what to do. The Male Judge was the one who took the lead and presided over the people of Israel in that campaign[/color][/b]

There are definitely more; but you may not have seen them (many people don't, actually). So, please go to those texts and offer an explication as to WHY God chose those women in leadership over His people (contrary to your assertion that God chose only men to lead).

[b]My answer
Please, im begging you to show me (From any part of the bible) where women had authority over, presided and led Men in matters of worship.[/b]


Where is it written that any believer leads the 'pure worship' of NT Christian believers?

My answer

[b]Yes Sister. Hebrews chapter 13:7 and 17 clearly admonishes christians to submit to the authority of the overseers in the congregation who take the lead among them and to imitate their faith[/b]

Please look carefully at what you're trying to infer:

(a) the choosing of the apostles could not be confused for those who were called 'overseers'. These are two distinct issues.

[b]No Sister. John 21:15-17, Acts16:4,5; 2:14; All of Chapter 15,  Chap 2:14, 8:14-17, 10:24-48 clearly shows that when the christian congrgation was formed, it was the Apostles who served as overseers that took the lead in matters pertaining to worship. Later the apostles helped to appoint ,under the directions of the holy spirit, spiritually qualified and mature men as overseers in the various congregation to have oversight of the congregations.[/b]

(b) If you are making out all the disciples to be ONLY MEN, may I ask you what you think of Rom. 16:7 - "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me"?

Sister, i never said all disciples of Christ are men. I stated that the apostles who later had oversight over the church and also appointed other qualified men as overseers were all men. {Jesus had women disciples(so it would be outrageous for anybody to say all Jesus disciples are men ) and so did the first century congregation)
(c) How many apostles do you see in the New Testament?

[color=#000099]The ones mentioned in the scriptures only   [/color]


(d) What does Ephesians 4:11 mean to you?

[b]My answer

Paul discussed the fact that all true Christians had one hope, faith and baptism in that chapter and the gifts in men that God had provided to to nourish the Congregation and help the members maintain their faith and that included the apostles, shephards and teachers within the congregation. Christians are as of one body under Christ and within that body there are guidelines set out by the holy spirit on who could perform shepharding and teaching duties. (N/b. In God's eyes a man and his wife are one and is seen as one body. But within that one body, God's word also outlined how authority and headship take place
I don't see how this or Paul contradicts himself or all the other bible passages nor how it supports women having authority over men
This passage also was not discussing the qualifications or requirments of overseers[/b]



What do you understand by the term PRESBUTEROS (πρεσβύτερος)? Is that a term that was used for only male elders?

[color=#000099]Paul admonished older men, older women, younger men and younger women on how to behave. In what context are you talking about and who was he adressing. Was it the overseers of the congregation or who?[/color]

After a thorough examination of the above
any questions are welcome

@TV01

I appreciate the manner in which you tackled this topic for the most part.

Most people here are propagating their own thoughts rather tha stating what is found in the bible.

At the end of the day we get accused of propagating a Man only world .

The thing is that neither of us or any other person in this forum is in a position to reexpound, rethink, renegotiate or restate what is in the bible.

People carry on with this topic like there is room for negotiation as pertaining to roles within the congregation.

But the bible is clear on the role of elders and what women are not allowed to do WITHIN).


neither Tayo D arguments, nor Stimulus nor Pilgrims has ANY FOUNDATION ON THE BIBLE.

Neither does bogus arguments quoting the prophecy of Joel, Miriam leading fellow women in worship, women in the congregation admonished to teach fellow women, nor the case of Deborar, nor the fact that the Christian body is seen as one by Christ (Both males and females) CONTRADICT THE DIVINELY SET QUALIFICATIONS FOR APPOINTMENT TO POSITIONS OF OVERSIGHT IN THE CONGREGATION.

Summarry

From the bible it is the duty of Elders/Bishops/Overseers to Have authority over, teach, preside over, shephard, instruct and oversee the Church.

On the other hand Women CANNOT have authority over, teach, instruct, preside over, instruct or shephard the flock[/color].


So women [color=#990000]cannot serve as a member of the body of the Elders in the congregation[color=#770077][/color]

Now to SUM THIS DISCUSSION UP

Apostle Paul had under the guidiance of the holy spirit participated in making appointment of elders throughout the congregations.[/i]Now in writing he outlines EXACTLY WHAT GOD’S WILL IS TOWARDS THE APPOINTMENT OF OVERSEERS IN THE CONGREGATION.

1 Cor 14: 33-35

33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
      As in all the congregations of the saints[/b][/color][color=#770077], [b]34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


1 Tim 2:11,12
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 [i]I DO NOT PERMIT a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

1Tim 3:1-14   (Note that the role of the man and the woman ARE NOT INTERCHANGABLE)


1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12A [b]deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.