davidnazee:


No short waka to ogieamen house you don do thats why u think many Binis believe same nonsense as you do. FYI, you and the people that hold that view are minority.. Majority believes Oba is 100% Edo and has been that way.

The guy and anyone else that believe the oba is a yoruba nonsense are super minorities. Most families in Benin are related in one way or the other to the Oba, if they can trace their ancestors back enough. My ancestor for example was a sibling to Oba Ewuare 1 and this is reflected in our family morning greeting and the association reply. Those very familiar with Benin family greetings would know the family I am talking about even without mentioning the name.

Benin is/was a very structured society not comparable to any of our neighbours. Benin may seem alien to those that doesn't fully understand how it evolved.

The guy said he doesn't believe a Ekhaladerhan is Oduduwa. He doesn't believe that Benin sent for Oranmiyan because that will mean sending for a total stranger.

He somehow believe that Ife invaded and conquered Benin, give us the oba dynasty which ways he and his people doesn't understand because it seems foreign to them. If he is not close minded, which of our neighbours possess the attributes he associated with the Oba, his very limited knowledge of the yoruba society and kingdom/kingship makes he believe that the Oba of Benin or the Benin palace is similar to yoruba palace. Nothing can be further from the truth.

The Benin culture and traditions is very different from that of Ife, pointing to the the title is not enough. Apart from the oba title that is now being shared by Benin and Yoruba, the culture and traditions are very different. This is the conclusion reached by scholars for dismissing the Benin/Ife. Connection.

The fact that the traditional institution within Benin keep evolving while that in his village remained stagnant didn't make Benin foreign. For Benin to have lasted that long, it needed to keep evolving to a level that her boundaries villages and those far removed from the centre of Benin city could not recognised. This is why they argued that it's foreign.

Ordinarily the guy should have been long ignored but for the sake of those reading to lean.


It's a logical fallacy to claim Benin is from Ife, when according to scholars that studied both places, there were no similarities between both places.

The Benin traditional system is only unique to Benin in Nigeria. Although There are varying imitations in various places, the Benin influence of those places are sometimes not in dispute, the direction of flow of the cultural influence is usually from the centre of Benin.

He doesn't believe in yoruba version of Oduduwa and doesn't believe in the Benin version either. So he has joined a few others to invent a new version of Ife army invading and conquering Benin and giving Benin the Oba, and a unique traditional institution that Ife didn't have and not found in any other yoruba communities.

davidnazee:


When i was a litte kid, i asked my grandmother (she was born in 1920s) if Oba/Benin Monarchy came from Yoruba, her reply was that is nonsense, Oba is Benin and has always been Benin. She doesn't even know the name Oranmiyan..
She did not just make up that answer the she gave me, she got it from stories her pwn grandmother told her..
So you see why I can never believe or agree to the nonsense talk about our Oba and our great monarchy coming from yoruba and non existence Ife.

I also used to frequently visit my great grandmother in village during school holidays in the early to mid 1980s. She was born during the reign of Oba Ovonramwen. One of the reasons I love the village was the history of Benin the elders told us after dinners and before bedtimes. None of the elders or my great grandmother was aware of Oranmiyan, Ife and Oduduwa. I only became aware of these names when I read them in books.

By the time my great grandmother died in late 1980s, she witnessed the reigns of the following Obas, Ovonramwen, Eweka 1, Akenzua and Erediawa. My great grandmother who also met her grandparents who saw the reigns of Oba in the 1700s into 1800s got her history from them to pass on to us. Myself have also witnessed the reign of three oba, Akenzua, Erediawa and Ewuare 2 already. The passing down of history from generations to generations is one way the Benin history has passed down from the past.

AreaFada2:

Dude, you jump from one minutiae to another. I said one among the agendas at GRC in 1480s was designating seniority of Onojies. The remnant persists till today.

Haba! How does it prove level of control or independence? How can we now say everything that it covered when things have evolved since over 500 years?

Good empires were not necessarily control freaks, unless they feared rebellion, couldn't bank on loyalty or otherwise have reasons for tighter control.

Pontius Pilate didn't want to be involved in Jesus' and Pharisees case. He said it was a local religious issue. If Jesus didn't stop residents of Roman Judea from paying their taxes, didn't say he was superior to Caesar on earthly basis or support rebellion, Rome had no interest. He had to be almost forced to act. Not to appear weak to Judean masses. And washed his hands!

I gave an example with faraway Eastern Yorubaland, how some local royal dukes nearer to Benin, like my ancestors, even had more privileges than some of them. Some of those provincial rulers spent childhood as "omada" in Benin to learn Benin culture and administration.

If you truly know Benin history even a little bit, did more reading and research, you will know one well-known Eastern Yoruba prince who was an omada. He later fell out with Benin when he became ruler in his land. If not that Oyinbo documented it, they would deny today that their future ruler served as omada to prepare for his future role as ruler back home.

I can now agree that your knowledge of evolution of royal traditions, even of Benin history, is not that deep. Or your personal agenda is totally different.

I keep writing what I observed growing up, history written in my presence, learning about Eastern Yorubaland, what I learnt through comparing Greek, Roman, Persian and other better documented imperial histories.

If you are not proud of Benin role in maintaining order in the South Eastern part of West Africa, or your other ethnic affiliations make you resent Oba and Benin history, that's fine. But don't conjecture widely.

We know of resentment by some of our neighbours over historical Benin dominance. No biggie. Nature abhors vacuum and Benin Empire always followed that natural law. The pushback today is to be resentful, deny it, minimise it or confusingly, all of the aforementioned.

To say that Iwerre had not evolved their monarchy on their own is wrong. They have added "Olu", though a direct equivalent Yoruboid word for Ogie or Lord, Igininuwa left Benin with younger sons of 65 chiefs to replicate titles of Benin courtiers in Iwerre, today Iwerre have other more Yoruba sounding titles, they have female chiefs, Ologbosere (3rd in miliary hierarchy in ancient Benin) is a more high ranking chief in Warri (even sometimes serving as Prime Minister), etc.

Gregyboy
Automaticmotor
Samuk
Davidnaze

The bolded part of your submission is very correct.

Efewestern:
I've highlighted some keys points from UGBE634, AreaFada2 and samuk. Edeyoung, I saw your mention and I will try to answer below.







First of all, we all can agree that there was a major divergence amongst the Edoid group. Most groups left during the Ogiso Dynasty (Igodomigodo) and at that time, the current Empire wasn't formed.

Before their departure, The Ogie title was prominent and it didn't by anyway mean Chief/Duke as some would want us to believe. The Urhobos/Isokos who were the largest stock to leave had records of her relationship with Aka and even marked her territories as we can see in Abraka which means a border with Aka.

Before the establishment of the Oba dynasty by Oba Eweka I, most Edoid groups who migrated to various areas were already established, forging with their separate identity except for recent migrators like Iwere who later adopted a Bini Prince.

Wether or not Oba was used during the Ogiso era is still very debatable and inputs from those against and for the argument are valid. I've noted some valid corrections myself and I've also gained some insights.

Understanding how kingdom and empire evolves is the key to understanding that the Oba title couldn't have be borrowed by Benin.

Let's take the evolution of the United Kingdom of Great Britain for example.

It started out with various tribesmen jostling for powers, there were wars amongst the various ethnic groups. The Roman empire invaded and conquered Britain. Britain was under Roman rule for 400 years.

In the 400 years of Roman occupation of Britain, they built and organised the society, they built roads and monuments that can still be seen today.

After the collapse of Rome, Britain gain independence and it took several more centuries before the United Kingdom evolved to start their own colonisation of the word. Most great kingdoms follow the same pattern of evolution and Benin is not different.

The Benin Kingdom took hundreds of years to became the powerhouse it was in ancient times.

There are no records that Ife was a Kingdom. There are no records that Ife colonised Benin. The suggestion that such an advance society as Benin would have sent for a total foreigner to rule over them doesn't make sense.

The story is that Oranmiyan came to Benin, donated sperms for the birth of Oba Eweka 1 and left after three months, again how does this make sense.

AreaFada2:

You mentioned how Oyo seems to have got the short end of the stick. It was a gang up of sorts. Some have not forgiven Oyo for its dominance in what is now Yorubaland since 1690s until 1820-30s. They feared rise of another politically imperial Oyo.

Other Yorubas were much more comfortable with Ife/OOni, a priest, with no true evidence of previous imperial power, aside conjecture of ruling far and wide or mythical rulers/deities. If Ife/Oduduwa was such an empire, why is it that thousands of their princes were famous hunters that left to settle in various forests near a stream, junction or where the shot elephant fell and died?

Wait, not so fast. Lagos-Ibadan express people will soon tell us they went to hunt for human beings. That elephant was just a metaphor.

In life when somebody too do wayo, you go wayo yourself.

The only Yoruba nation we respected in Benin was Oyo. At least since 1690s. Over 250 after Benin built an empire in 1440 AD. Respected enough to sign Otun (Northern Ekiti) Treaty with their Aare Ona Kankanfo and Iyase Ekpenede.

Oyo can never get the short end of the stick. They gave their language to Yoruba, their imperial history is solid, Oranmiyan is Yoruba most senior prince, he was King in Oyo before being one in Ife. Late Alaafin Lamidi Adeyemi talked history with confidence. I even watched his old interview on Benin and the British. Quite revealing.

Oba of Lagos is not popular among many Yoruba today because of his clear message of Benin origin. Some are misinterpreting his other messages to say he came from Ife.

I do agree with you on the language they gave to Yoruba people, but the political arrangement today seems to place more recognition on Ooni than the Alaafin, I believe the Ooni is a joint chairmen of Nigeria traditional council. How many people will remember Oyo empire centuries from now, how many people today even know that it was the Alaafin that the British met and recognised as the king of the yoruba people in 1824.

RedboneSmith:


Can I ask you a small question? I was recently speaking with a man from Umoghun n'Okhua, and he said their greeting is Lamogun. I was under the impression that this greeting was exclusive to the Oba's family in Benin.

Are their non-Ọba lineages, especially in Iyekorhionmwon that use Lamogun?

Lamogun was not always the greetings of the oba of Benin, it originally belongs to Igun Street. The Oba bought it from them. Those that migrated from Igun Street in ancient time before Lamogun was appropriated by the Oba would have taken it with them.

RedboneSmith:


Bloody nose?

The way you people claim 'victory' is very funny. TAO will trash you people with concrete peer-reviewed scholarly submissions. You people will claim you gave her a bloody nose, even when the interaction in which she dragged all of you like small Tiger gen is there for everyone to see.

I came on to demonstrate that Ryder was misquoted by one of you. I did that. I put all the evidence out. And then stepped back, because I have no interest in the broader discussion going on here. You came and claimed I was given a bloody nose. By who? How? Gregyboy used to do this a lot with me too, which was really weird, because that boy has never made one coherent point all the time I have known him here.

One wonders if this is a peculiar Benin trait - to claim phantom victories.

Is that how your empire was also built - on the back of phantom victories? One would hope not.

Biko leave that my girlfriend out of it, she has been reading all the post quietly, looking for the slightest opportunity to jump in.

On a more serious note, I see a win win scenario for the Benin palace. Others may not fully understand it now. At the moment, it looks like a supremacy battle but anyone with critical thinking ability will understand the smartness of the Benin noble men that adopted Oranmiyan and Oduduwa.

Amongst Ife, Benin and Oyo, Benin is the only one that have the solid traditional institution to carry Oduduwa into the future, the oba of Benin is the future of Oduduwa dynasty, pause and think of the implementation of this for millions of yoruba diaspora, to better understand this, look at what the Catholic Church did with the Christian religion that had it's root in the middle east. Jesus was a Jewish but the headquarters of the religion he founded is in Rome and the most senior representative or most holyhead have always be predominantly Europeans.

In a few centuries, I wouldn't be surprised if Islam and Christianity overrun most part of yoruba land and Ife itself. We already know what these foreign religions do to traditional institutions. Future yoruba diaspora that subscribe to the Oduduwa narrative and want to experience the African traditional way of life will only have Benin to turn to. The Edo state government in conjunction with the Europeans have already started west Africa cultural district in Benin city. It's been funded by the Europeans. 60 Germany delegates including their cultural minister were in Benin city few weeks ago.

Long ago the Benin traditional council insulated the Benin traditions from the modern day dominant Christian religion by creating an orthodox Church for the monarchy and palace. This Church (Holy Arosa) is headed by the oba of Benin, like the church of England is headed by the king or queen of England.

The purpose of this engagements for someone like myself is to separate the authentic history from the political history for the benefit of those miseducated Edo people.

When Rome fell, they appropriated Christianity and souls of billions, when great Britain fell, they gave the world their English language, when Benin fell they also wrote themselves into the heart of millions of yoruba people across the world through Oduduwa. Very few empires in history was able to do this. Egypt, Athens, etc are almost completely lost leaving ruins behind. The endearing legacy of great empires and kingdoms is to remain in people's heart.

Irrespective of what we say here, the millions of yoruba that believes in Oduduwa carries the oba of Benin in their heart. You cannot discuss Oduduwa and Oranmiyan without Benin.

AutomaticMotors:


He come find agbado (corn)

Buhari is a town hall different from Balablu bulaba

bundarina:


Then why are you crying. It's always you dumb shits discussing your copiums, along with Nyamiri, in this cursed colonial entity called Nigeria.

Where did this Balablu bulaba guy come from and what is him saying exactly. Guy you missed road enter this thread?

UGBE634:
Ogie as a word seem to have been limited in Use and practice since the Emergence of Oba in Benin, I am talking about the meaning, the true meaning of the word before the Emergence of Obas.

. In this case, it is talking about the fact that the several kings who go by the name Ogie cannot emerge as Oba (as the Oba, a position which was alien to us and whose meaning we cannot decipher, whose influence we feared. whose might we adore, that is why I refered him as emperor, because we cannot call someone king, whose title we cannot dissect that statement is deep, it is trying to show the dichotomy of the word Oba/Ogie and the conflict between them, it is talking about how one is far bigger than the other in Benin traditional practice. How one seem to have been subdued for another, Ogie-irrioba.

Oba'r'Ogie means Oba is king, Oba as a word is not native, when you understand that, you will be good, but I know comprehension is clearly not your forte


Oba as a word is not native, Oba'nOgie means Oba the king, the Binis referring to him as Ogie is referring him as king in the language they understand

Osaro ne' Enogie is used for description, to describe properly the person you are talking about.

For example- Osaro rhio Okhuo ne

Meaning- Osaro has gotten married o

Someone will now ask, De-Osaro no khin?

Someone will now ask-which Osaro

The reply would be- Osaro ne' Enogie oghe Egbean?

Meaning- Osaro that is the king Over Egbean
Meaning- Osaro that is the king of Egbean

that is why I keep asking, there were some Enogies in Benin before the Emergence of Obas in Benin who were they under


When you answer that question, your ignorance is cured for life

Most of these questions have already been answered variously in this very thread, you yourself alluded to part of the answer, probably without fully understanding it.

Benin society evolved over centuries, Areafada2 talked about the ancient elders or edions who came together to elect one amongst them, Benin went through a series of evolution to become the structured and organised society the Europeans met in 1400s.

There were no other well structured society in this part of Nigeria. Even the name Edo have it's own history.

During the evolution of Benin various group left Benin at various periods taking with them what was on ground at that time, this is why the Urhobo still referred to Benin as AKKA people because this was the name Benin was known by when they left. They also took with them the traditional institution that was on ground with them. So it's not surprising if they cannot relate with the later name Edo, because Edo came later, during the reign of Oba Ewuare 1.

The Urhobo have already left at this this time. It will seem that the Urhobo were not around when the name Omo no' ba ne' Edo involved.

Flowing from my analysis above, it will seem that the Igbo that remember Benin people as Idu people probably even have a much earlier contact with Benin than others because pa Idu history of Benin dates further back than Akka.

You wrote a lot below but it seems you don't fully understand the significance of what you wrote:

Ogie as a word seem to have been limited in Use and practice since the Emergence of Oba in Benin, I am talking about the meaning, the true meaning of the word before the Emergence of Obas.

. In this case, it is talking about the fact that the several kings who go by the name Ogie cannot emerge as Oba (as the Oba, a position which was alien to us and whose meaning we cannot decipher, whose influence we feared. whose might we adore, that is why I refered him as emperor, because we cannot call someone king, whose title we cannot dissect that statement is deep,

There were no where else in southern Nigeria that had such a ruler you just describe above in the bolded. The fact you do not fully understand how a system evolved doesn't make it foreign.

The arguments of scholars that have studied the Benin/Ife connection is that for the Oba to have come from Ife, Ife would have had something similar or close, but Ife had nothing, not even a kingdom.

The Europeans that studied the Benin Kingdom understood how long it takes for any society to evolve into the kind of sophisticated kingdom they met on ground in the 1400s. There were no any other such kingdom around then. Ife wasn't even know to the Europeans for centuries later.

The study of Ife to see if they had such kingdom in the past that was perhaps lost, yielded nothing. Great kingdoms and empire always leaves behind archaeological treasures. Eg Egypt, Athens, Rome. Apart from few Bronzes whose origin couldn't be ascertain, there were nothing of significant found in Ife. Even the Oro Oba Ado burial pit was empty of human bones.

The Europeans lead by Germany and Britain in collaboration with the Edo government are finalising plans to start archaeological works in selected parts of Benin. It's a multi million euro project being financed by the Europeans.

In Summary:

1. You cannot claim Omo no' ba title to be foreign because you don't know it's evolution.

2. The full title which is Benin in Origin is Omo no' ba ne' Edo. Not Oba, Oba is the shortened English version.

3. For Ife to be the source of Benin dynasty, Ife would have evolved something similar because you cannot give what you don't have. Scholars that studied Ife and they didn't find any evidence of Ife kingdom.

4. It doesn't make sense for an organised and sophisticated society such as Benin to seek unrelated ruler elsewhere rather than choose one of their own

5. It's even more outrageous to suggest that Benin was attacked and conquered, and the system was imposed by alien.

6. The Europeans once believed the the Benin artefacts were from Egypt, they, like yourself also didn't believe that the black man was capable of evolving such a sophisticated society that can produce works of arts of such standards. But later evidence proved the artworks to be indigenous to Benin.

Thebadpolitican:


I just tire he is trying to force is own narrative

Please let's start calling the title of the Oba in full seems the other tribes are a bit confuse about it, if we began calling the Oba title in full as omo no' ba, then they they will know the title is not just oba alone like the yorubas are making them believe and that will bring a sense of belonging to the edo people

I notice our elderly one never one day at all referd to the Oba of benin as oba rather they always call in full, omo no' ba, oba is a short form introduced by the European

He is even more affectionately referred to as Omo as the short version of his title (omo no' ba ne' Edo, meaning a child that shines for Edo) not Oba. His full title literally says he is the one that shines, illuminates Edo. The shining star of Edo, the traditios and culture resolves round him. The remaining part of his title is Uku Akpolokpolo. All these are rooted in Benin antiquity. There is nothing foreign about it.

A none native of Edo will not fully grasp the meaning and full title.

AutomaticMotors:
Just for laughs





AreaFada2
Samuk
Thebadpolitician

Whilst the Ooni and Alaafin were fighting dirty in public, they created what they call ancient burial sites for Oba of Benin in Ife. Oba of Benin is the only one amongst them with such honour. Although the so called burial pit was excavated by the Europeans that were not convinced about the story and found no remain of human bones, which confirmed what they already suspected.

It was because of European suspicious of the story that made them excavated the site. The Europeans have previously documented Benin history for centuries and couldn't find any connection with Ife. They felt their intelligence was being insulted with the Ife fairytale and they investigated and found no connection between Benin and Ife that can be backed up by history.

You can see that Ife and Oyo doesn’t even speak the same language according to the Alaafin in that article you posted. The common language thing was Oyo's contribution to the western region unification arrangement I talked about earlier.

Whenever Dr Egharevba is quoted in Benin, the Benin nobles usually laugh at the person's ignorance. You can Google the Esogban's reply to the late Ooni when the Ooni quoted Dr Egharevba during the public disagreement on Benin/Ife connection between late oba Erediawa and late Ooni.

If not for the fact that Awolowo introduced tribalism and the yoruba are over zealous plus the need to preserve Benin authentic history, there would have been no need to reveal the Ife fairytale.

1. The oba of Benin contributed his centuries old history and got back a very senior role being the chosen heir to Oranmiyan and Oduduwa. The Oba of Benin also got special ancient burial site created for his ancestors, he his the only one amongst them to have such in Ife.

2. Ooni contributed Ife as the centre of migration of everyone and got a lesser role of chief priest.

3. Alaafin contributed the common language and also got a senior role as the second son of Oranmiyan.

The story started with Oranmiyan leaving Ife to Benin, he couldn’t stay, but didn't leave until he ensured he left a pregnant Benin princess behind to give birth to Oba Eweka 1. After Oranmiyan ensured his dynasty will continue in Benin, he left for Oyo were he became the Alaafin, he had a second son that carried on as Alaafin. In Oranmiyan's absent from Ife, the Ooni was in charge of the gods and deity as chief priest.

As with all this kind of arrangements, someone is bound to become greedy...in this case the Ooni backed up by western political class such as Awolowo and a result, things fell apart and Benin moved out of the western region.

This revelation is why most yoruba avoid threads like this nowadays, unlike before.

AutomaticMotors:
Samuk

His name is Oluwo of Iwoland, Osun State, Abdulrasheed.

AreaFada2:


Samuk, I nor go gree o, I nor go gree. I go protest.

We nor go let them dash away our illustrious Ekhaladerhan legacy to some desert goons.

At least Ekaladerhan nor use Alibaba flying carpet from Afghanistan, na leg he use waka jeje. No heavenly chains either.

Oba Akenzua saw the handwriting on the wall, that's why he hurriedly carried his thing (Ekaladerhan AKA Oduduwa) and run away from the western region. this people cannot be trusted, they flirt with every foreign religion.

AutomaticMotors:


Like I swear I was shocked that it was true! That it was solid fact! I notice this their new rubber stamp ooni is veering little by little to the Benin traditional mode of dressing .... Very Soon Edo go join the Fulani to share the spoils

This is what happens when you try to build a fictional none existence fairytale. Look at how quickly their fairytales is eroding before their eyes. Benin that was destroyed and burned down with the Oba deposed is still standing and waxing strong, Ife and the Ooni that got all the backing from the British Colonial masters and western political class is already fading in less than two centuries of fairytales that was built of quick sound.

Today, they do more to claim Benin history than save their souls that's gradually being lost to the caliphate.

AutomaticMotors:





This fact funny ooo but tragically true!! Them dey try thief Benin/Edo History while fulani don thief their soul already

AreaFada2

Very tragic 😥

scholes0:


Wrong. The people of Yorubaland were not CONTINIOUSLY at war. The decline of Oyo in the 19th century led to a huge power vacuum that various Yoruba kingdoms were jostling to replace, amongst them; ibadan, Ijaye, Abeokuta, Owu and the rest which were the aspiring new powers, and that was the period of incessant warfare. Before then, there wasn't any more frequency of warfare in the region than anywhere else or any other group of people in the general southeastern west African region they were situated in.

Ife was never chosen as the epicentre of any migration myth. There were actually dynastic migrations of rulers and in some cases commoners from Ife of old. You think it is easy to cook a non existent chapter into the history of Millions including their Orikis just like that?

Let me tell you, before there was anything called 'Western region', Otu Ife had always occupied a sacred place in Yoruba historiography.

The people of the Benue valley share something similar to the old confederation of Kororofa based in Wukari, although not 100% the same. The northern Igbos have it with Nri, and so many Edoid groups have it with Igodomigodo or Benin. It is't exactly a new thing in West Africa or even the world. Maybe those were cooked up too.

Are you saying every Tom, Dick and Harry claiming migration from Ife today, did so in the past? Whilst Ife keep the migration stories going, the oba of Benin is keeping the Oduduwa story going by his annual Ugie Oduduwa. I am not sure what the role of the Alaafin is now in the arrangement. I know he gives out some specific chieftaincy titles in yoruba land.

With the way yoruba people and oba are embracing foreign religions such as Christianity and Islam, the role of the Ooni is daily diminishing as well.

At the end, it seems only the Oba of Benin end of the stick will endure well into the future. The Sultan have far more yoruba people under his spiritual leadership than the Ooni. Left for you guys, you would have probably sold Oduduwa and Oranmiyan to the Hausa/Fulani in a few centuries.

scholes0:


Lmao... I am looking forward the next story that you will spin to explain away the Oduduwa mask used in the Oduduwa ritual that was part of the commemorative art carted away from Benin after the expedition.

Let me break it down for you.

There was once a western region in Nigeria which comprises the following gladiators.

1. Oba of Benin with centuries old documented history by the Europeans

2. The Alaafin of Oyo which the British met on ground as king of yoruba people in 1824.

3. The Ooni which the yoruba people regarded as their spiritual leader.

Unification of the region:

The people of this former western region were continously at war with each other until the British brought law and order in order to colonised the country.

A story was concocted to unite these people under one umbrella. Ife was chosen to be the epicentre of a migration myth. The Oba of Benin contributed his centuries old history which Ife lacked and in return, he inherit or became the heir to Oduduwa fictitious dynasty. The Alaafin became second heir to the dynasty while Ooni whose domain was already chosen as the migration Centre got the least position of chief priest or spiritual leader.

This plot unravel when Awolowo introduced tribalism into this arrangements by helping to elevate the Ooni above his assigned position. The Oba of Benin (Akenzua) worked out of the arrangements in protest and demanded for his own mid West Region, which he got in 1963. The Alaafin and the Ooni were left in the western region to fight it out amongst themselves.

The oba if Benin left with his entitled, heir to Oduduwa dynasty intact, he now celebrates the annual Oduduwa festival to keep it alive, the Alaafin seems to have gotten the shot end of the stick.

scholes0:


Shey you dey whine me ni?
What is all these pseudo-history flying around here?

He is right, UGBE634 already presented a screen shot of Benin dictionary said to have been written in 1930s, it's there, scroll backwards to see it.

scholes0:


Sam, It is not new o.

Oduduwa festival has always been a part of a series of festivities in Benin known as the Ague-Oghene. which was meant to celebrate the Oba's paternal ancestors. The only difference was that back then it was all compartmentalized and condensed together.
It is pre 1897.

Oba Eresonyen de-compartmentalized it and started celebrating Ugie Oduduwa separetely.

There was nothing like Oduduwa in Benin history pre-1897 and Oba Eresonyen predates 1897. Alot was changed in Benin history to accommodate the new Oduduwa polical history after 1897. Why was it ague Oghene in the past according to you and then changed to ugie Oduduwa after 1897?

Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan didn't appear in Benin history pre-1896. There is no where in Benin history those names existed before 1897.

Thebadpolitican:



You're not edo and you can things missed up

First thing first surrender to the fact benin owns the word ogie and the other coinage are merely tribal corruption


First you have to note the Oba install enogie, he didn't install kings in delta as Ovie, probably its a corruption of the word enogie that happened over time

Again not all title the Oba gives is related to the word ogie and not all dukes are named enogie even in benin, the title of oba of Lagos giving by the Oba of benin is called eleko of Eko, the title giving by the Oba of benin to the owo king in ondo state is called osemawe of owo,
Naming depended on the particular oba of benin on the throne during the naming. In a general statement all the royalty that is not the Oba himself would be called enogie by the palace, the name oba is only unique to the head just like president

The title oba is a short form it is called omo no oba, the white people shortened it, no elderly one in benin would call the Oba of benin oba without putting omo no' ba which means ( the child that shines for the edo people) that is the title are not just oba which is a short form

You are very correct with the meaning.

scholes0:


When you say it is new, How 'new' do you consider to be too new to be discarded?
I want to know your time frame.

I believe the annual Oduduwa celebration actually started with the current oba few years ago. I can't remember his father Erediawa 2 celebrating it annually. I also believe the other praise name came in during Erediawa or slightly earlier. None of these existed during Oba Ovonramwen.

Ofunwa111:









It's really been an interesting read so far. This topic always lives up to it's expectations 😂😂. To think it's been more back and forth from the Edo men themselves with little or no interference from the Omo Odua makes it more fascinating.. I am still waiting for French baldie to come in 😂😧😂, then lastly how it might likely round up with the Anioma people;
I know RedBonesmith is ever ready for y'all on that one though.. Once again, it's been worth the time, keep it up!

RedboneSmith was already here, he got a bloody nose and ran away. He may just come back swigging after reading this my reply. Let me go and look for body armour for protection.

scholes0:
Samuk what is the meaning of Ovbi Adimila which is a prominent praise epithet of the Omonoba?

That was added lately, also the annual celebration of Oduduwa by the palace is also new. Benin have two historical timeline, pre-1897 authentic history and post-1897 polical history that puts the oba of Benin at the heart and centre of yoruba monarchs.

Don't forget that the most important people in yoruba land are Oduduwa, Oranmiyan, Oba of Benin as first heir, the Alaafin of Oyo as second heir and the Ooni as the spiritual leader or chief priest.

What we have been focusing on here is the authentic history not the political arrangements.

AreaFada2:

Samuk, it would be improper for me to disclose private discussion with these personages in Eastern Yorubaland. How NL commentators believe the could possibly know more than the custodians is baffling to me. It goes beyond what is bolded above. I have nothing to gain by putting one side above the other. If anything, I even have much easier access on SW side.

Now regarding argument over Ogie, Enogie, etc between Efewestern and others, the example of Ogiame of Itsekhiri is enough to settle it.
Iginuwa was sent as "Ogie Amen". That Ogie meaning is not different in origin to what other Edoid tribes have.

Ogie means Lord. As in one ruling over an area. In Benin view and purpose, it was not meant to be King in stature.

Of course, since the Ogie or Ovie is the ruler now in charge and with increased independence, exercising the power of a king, he came to be seen as a king. Was there any point in changing Ovie title to reflect his king status? In my view not at all!
But Efe remember that those Ovies did not start out as a king. Ogisos did not start out as outright kings even. There were senior elders among elders of Benin quarters. Each Quarter produced an elder who will become next leader when the previous dies.

Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholor ancestors where among the elders when their head a brilliant idea to make himself king. The other 4 chiefs/elders, after intense negotiations, agreed but one one condition. That they should be permanent chiefs with near equal power to the king. They all agreed (swore at Erimwindu/shrine all Benin ancestors) that the king must ensure their sons inherit their titles and they must ensure the king's son or chosen heir inherits kingship. These elders laboured hard to wrestle control of Benin from Evian descendants and restore monarchy after Ogiso Owodo. They were fulfilling ancestral oath and also safeguarding their positions, since only a Ogiso direct blood descendant would be under oath to ensure the elders retain their position perpetually.

The Elders list later expanded to 7 to include Ezomo, Oloton and the Crown Prince. So the long match to kingship began somewhere for every ancient king.

Whatever title any tribe use to describe their king today is their choice. But we are looking at origins of names first. Nobody is disputing Ovie or Orodje meaning king to those people today.

Just to add, the Benin view the Oba as both the embodiment of divine spiritual being and a physical king. The Oba was seen as God in the physical, the spiritual leader, God on earth only second to Oghene-Osa. There is a saying in Edo that you cannot have two Oba at a time in Benin, hence ogie doesn't quite mean the same thing as Oba to ancient Benin people.

Your example of Ogia-Amen is spot on. People that are not very conversant with Benin may confuse Ogie for Oba.

Oba may mean king in yoruba land, but in Benin, Oba is more than a king. He embodies both the physical and spiritual.

The Ooni for example was the spiritual leader of yoruba while the Alaafin was the king. But the Oba of Benin is both.

Today the Sultan of Sokoto has replaced the Ooni as the spiritual leader of more than half yoruba oba and more than half yoruba population.

The oba of Benin remains both the king and spiritual leader of all Benin and all Benin Enigies. The Oba title is rooted in Benin traditions and antiquity.

UGBE634:
Nor think am abeg, these four titles were the Uzamas themselves, Edion nene. It is not part of it at all. Aside Usen that seem strange, the Entire tradition of Benin from eastern flank to western frontiers see these four titles as natives

My 20 years was even too far, debate has already started. Opakhara . Ezor.

UGBE634:
Bro that is not enough, they seem to be natives or so that is what our oral account state,none of them have origin from Yoruba land.

These four Oliha, Edohen, Eholor nire, Ero, these four are the first four Uzamas, Edion nene, that it was gotten externally is highly unlikely. It contradicts our tradition. When an Edo (H) word enters yoruba lexicon, I believe it would still be H to F too.

20 years from now future Edo will find it difficult to defend these four titles as being of Edo origin.

scholes0:


You, your own position is not even reconcilable with both your Benin brothers here and the Yorubas.
Your position should be thrown into the dustbin but your brothers will not tell you.

Scholars found nothing that connects Benin and Ife other than fairytales. This is the end of the matter as far as I am concerned.

AreaFada2:

Yet, Europeans documented Oba in Benin title in a letter dated 1502, yet nothing about Oba in any Yoruba or "Yoruboid" area like Iwerre?

UGBE634. Just take your side of the divide and defend it bravely. I make no secret of my SW links but also clear about where I stand in the effort to straighten things that others wrote (basically wanting to dictate Benin history) when Britain denied us education. Even refusing us permission to build and fund our own schools.

The story is that Oba of Benin is from Ife. If the story is true, these various titles should have existed in Ife specifically, these guys shouldn't be allowed to give examples from other areas of yoruba land that was influenced by Benin for centuries.

If the argument is that Benin is an offshoot of Ife, then there have to be similarities in both Benin
and Ife traditional institutions, but there are none.

AutomaticMotors:


I have said this several times!! That boy is not Edo I am even tired of saying it

I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, I thought he was genuinely seeking the truth, but when he started inventing theories that the yoruba themselves avoided, I knew he was a fanatic. As far as he was concerned, he was ready to say anything just to convince himself.

He started out by misrepresenting the palace traditions on Oduduwa, when he was corrected, he said Ekaladerhan died in Ughoton.

He was asked to explain why an established kingdom like Benin would have sent for a complete stranger from little know Ife to come and become their king. He said the Benin people most have been attacked and conquered. He completely refused to see how implausible the story is.

Anyway, how do you convince an Arisco supporter and anyone that lost out in a land dispute with his Enogie that Benin monarch is not yoruba.

I don't know how this so called lone home grown fairytales teller plans to accomplished what an army of yoruba fairytales tellers couldn't achieve on Nairaland.

It's best to ignore him.

Thebadpolitican:



We have done a great job to destroy the myth surrounding our history with yoruba how I wish the palace could do so and come out clean about itb

People like Ugbe would seize to exist

Ugbe is a stubborn he goat who refuses to read, relearn and to crown it all he claims he is not yoruba

We still have to remain vigilant, especially because of those amongst us that have been miseducated or those with ulterior motives, agendas and those pretending to be Benin.

UGBE634:
The reason why they are probably quiet is that they are tired of you, they seem to see you as a clown now.

That's a post by macof

So far amongst the Benin on this thread, You have proven yourself to be more than a clown and like I said before you are on your own. You are on a thread where you are against the entire Benin people and what they stand for and still claim to be Benin.

I have been very careful before now not to beleive that your head is blocked and confused as others have been saying, but there is no longer doubt in mind that you are as they described.

Whatever your agenda and ulterior motives are, you haven't be able to convince a single Benin on this thread to join you.