Thebadpolitican:


He is a yoruba man, or probably the part of benin usen who are clamoring to become yoruba

The very fact that most yoruba now read threads like this quietly is a testament to the amount of collective work done in the past few years to rescue Benin history from these people. UGBE634 is a lone ranger. All Benin people here have told him that his views are narrow and myopic. It's now up to him. One thing should be clear to him by now, that he is on his own on this and his views doesn't represent Benin. However he is entitled to his own fews.

Thebadpolitican:



Ugbe I have told you severally go and read the works of Gregyboy everything you seek for is up there

Are you aware that that edo state was once in the western region if you remember or you read your history books correctly then you shouldn't be asking why some yoruba idols are found in benin

The idol like ogboni was introduced to the edos when we were in the western region politician in the western region had to belong to this confraternity to gain power and influence, again ogboni its an oyo idol not ife another bubble to burst your ife myth before you start thinking your oromiyan shit from ife


2) sango, orunmila ifa were introduced to benin by edo returnees from areas what we now call indo and ekiti today, oba eweka 11 ascended the throne in 1914 after the death of his father oba ovaramwen he begged edo merchants chiefs who had been overseeing and exchanging trades in the west before the Benin invasion that brought down the empire and gave rise to the new country Nigeria. to return home to help him rebuild back the destroyed empire caused by the war
Most of the edo families who returned back brought in this foreign idols, they brought in the yoruba names that will hear today in benin


For the title oba

That is an edo title

Your brain they pain you.... ugbe to even think otherwise if you're not disguising as edo

You're saying the oba should also be having ogie as is title like his fellow Duke is that sensible, even in the British monarchy everyone else who is related to the royalty bears duke(enogie) and only the head bears the title king or queen so are you expecting the oba of benin to also bear the word enogie of benin if so then the oba of benin would be as equal with the rest Duke which we know is not possible ....


It's only the yoruba monarchy that they have their original title and then decided to use a generic title for themselves which is absurd and weird for having two titles this can be explained because the title oba doesn't belong to them it entered their lexicon sometime, and they found it fancy and decided to use it for their titles you don't need me to tell you why they loved the name, of course the oba of benin influence over them before the collapse of empire was prominent

This is the absurdity in yoruba title

Let's take owo as example
General title : Oba
Indigenous title is: olowo of owo
The Duke : baale

The only off thing there is the general title oba which they all decided to be incorporating into their original titles after the ooni of ife in 1930 first adopted the world Oba to his title the rest followed


This is how monarchy are structured around the world

Title : oba of benin
Duke : enogie

British :
Title : King
Chiefs : Duke



You want everyone to spoon feed you one of the reason I believe you're yoruba

I won't be surprised if he still come back and not be convinced by this your brilliant submission. I am beginning to believe he is not interested in genuine history.

davidnazee:


You have more sense than that Ugbe boy, but your post once again is full of assumptions. we don't learn about history using assumptions or unfounded claims by one group. And I can see you are only picking pages from Ryder's work that suits your narrative. However Ryder's work was never about advocating and proving an Ife/Benin relationship but instead it was about all the inconsistencies and different narratives about the supposed relationship, and He cast a doubt wether such relationship existed.

When the Portugese wrote about Ogane, they could as well have said Ife or whatever name it was known by at that time. The Portugese in their writings mentioned names of places they visited and also names of places the natives told them existed even if the Portugese never saw those places, yet Ife wasn't mentioned anywhere because it didn't exist or had no significance to Benin.

No chiefs ever told Captain Roupell in 1897 about Ife sending a ruler to Benin. Roupell only wrote about a tale he heard of an Eweka coming to Benin. He never mentioned he came from Ife.

Ryder also mention a research done in 1830 by a European on Benin history. He said the eurpoean was told about a white man who came over the great water being the founder of Benin monarchy. My point and Ryder's point here is that even in 1830 Ife wasn't mentioned.

I am not misquoting Ryder's work, it is you that do not understand the purpose of Ryder's work.

Happy Sunday to you too.

It difficult for people to see and comprehend clearly when their thoughts process is heavily biased.

When the Ife narrative was shot done due to lack of concrete evidence, he still went on the assumption that the oba somehow still have to be yoruba in origin, even without producing any new evidence to back up this theory. Evidence means nothing to people like this, they are simply not interested in evidence.

How could yoruba without known strong monarchical system in the 1500th century had given Benin her dynasty. Even the little that became known of the yoruba monarchical system starting in 1800s is now largely eroded by Islam, with more than half of their monarchy being Muslim.

You cannot give what you don't have.

UGBE634:
how do we now explain the Oba title and the strange gods? Can we settle for the fact that the Oba must have been an "Ekue"

Oba is Benin in Origin. Even if you were to be right in a long stretch, it's still not enough evidence that the oba of Benin is yoruba.

Today more than half of yoruba monarchs share affinity with Islamic religion, some have even adopted Islamic names and titles, does this now mean that they were no longer yoruba in origin?

In the past Oba of Benin seek the best medicine men across the land, there was no place that was too far. Benin was heavily involved in Africa religious practices and renowned native doctors and practitioners of Africa religion were invited to Benin, sometimes to the palace. Any contribution from these various tribes, Ibo, Yoruba etc, doesn't change the Benin Origin of the Oba.

If you argue that the Oba of Benin is from Ife and his title is of yoruba origin, you have to show that Ife had monarchs in the 1500s.

Don't also forget that Easter yoruba was under the cultural influence of Benin for centuries and they copied the Benin style of monarchy and not the other way round.

,

AreaFada2:


Okoro is not lost in Benin o. Every Prince of Benin is called Okoro.
Crown Prince is Okoro n'Okhua. Okoro meant boy child initially but became Prince. I explained Okoro matter years ago here about how Oba Erediauwa was a student at Government College Ibadan, like 80 years ago. The chat between him and his British teacher. I believe I was replying to your post back then. I know at least 12 families with Okoro surname in Benin.
I still put it to you to show me any evidence of Olu of Warri using Oba title from 1800s. Remember, the Portuguese also documented Olu of Itsekhiri quite well. Show me Oba title in it.

I can tell you at least 20 Yoruba kings that never used Oba title until 100 years ago. Olubadan is one of them. Many were still "Baale". Not even yet king in status. Do you know how many Obas have been created or those elevated as Oba in last 50 years alone in Yorubaland. They all now have Oba title and praise name. It does not take long to be rooted. Just replace "Baale" in proverb with Oba.
Yes, power of Oba was important before 1897 is important before others in sphere of Benin influence could not just take Oba title like that. I have shown that even Yoruba rulers under Benin influence didn't even use Oba title.

Titles like Ojomo, Sagwe, Ero, Owangwe, Osere, Bajuaye and Sasere used in Yorubaland were adopted from Benin's Ezomo. Osague, Ero, Esere, Bazuaye and Iyase. You have them now in Ilesa and most of Eastern Yorubaland. In 100 years, people will swear that that they are not from Benin.

Ero, Oliha, Edohen, and Eholo were in Benin by 40BC. Do you have all these titles in all Delta Aristocracy? You don't believe that some words disappear if not used in separated languages?

The Benin/Edo Language I used to hear people speak growing up is different from the one I hear now. Never mind after 600 to 700 years.

It's the yoruba and other group that copied from Benin as you have just explained. As of today, no one is disputing the Benin Origin of the titles you just mentioned but don't be surprised when the story changes in another 100 years. The confusion with the Oba title is because whilst it was restricted to the Oba of Benin for centuries, the yoruba have domesticated and popularize it in the last 50 years, that it's Benin origin is now in doubt amongst some.

The reason scholars such as Ryder had difficulties with the Benin/Ife connection was because the two dynasty and artistic culture were very different from the material evidences they studied.

Benin as a center of culture and a melting pot have changed and continues to change over the centuries because of the exchange of cultures between various groups within the city. People from the hinterland such as Ugo, Urhonigbe whose culture have remained largely unchanged for centuries may confused the amalgamation of cultures in Benin city as foreign to them.

This confusion is why some is ascribing the origin of obaship to yoruba because the title is now shared between Benin and Yoruba. I am sure none of these guys can point to Ife monarch using the Oba title until recently, how can people argue that Benin got the Oba title from Ife when history cannot show us evidence of kingship in Ife until recently.

At best the Ooni was said to be a chief priest and the spiritual leader of the yoruba people, not the King. It was the Alaafin that the Europeans met on ground in 1824 as the king of the yoruba people, he was also the one that signed the treaty with the British on behalf of his yoruba people.

AutomaticMotors:
Samuk Good work 👍

Thanks

AreaFada2:


Abeg have mercy this Saturday night o, haba!

Even wicked Wike doesn't dish out so much fatality like this.

What can I say.

AreaFada2:


I already explained why. To say Usen and Iwerre are totally non-Edoid is wrong. When you consider how much Itsekhiri have mixed with Beni and Isiko/Urhobo and how much much Benin has mixed with Usen. I know because aside Benin proper, I am closest to Usen, Iwerre and Eastern Yoruba. This interchangeability is recent, unless you can show me any pre-1800 evidence of being called Oba. Even, show me one pre-1897. Do you know why Olu of Itsekhiri position was suspended from 1856 to 1936 (no Olu for 80 years)? Do you know why Oba Akenzua II gave the grandfather of current Olu of Warri 14 beads to crown the next 14 Olus of Warri?

When the centuries old Portuguese-made crown was stolen last time, the current Olu relied on one of those 14 beads to do his coronation, not really the newly made crown publicly seen. Watch Olu's inauguration video. He said it himself.

Previously, each Ovies/Orodjes came to Benin to buy their title. A three months journey to-and-fro to "buy Ovie". A very expensive and elaborate process of identifying the skull of the last Ovie in Benin. Some would-be ovie did not even survive the journey/rigour. I guess this may shock you to hear. When the British invade Benin and looted the palace, the skulls they saw were of prominent provincial rulers and defeated foreign rulers (like Deji of Akure in 1818. They were not sacrificial victims.

The whole body of work on these histories is entire massive subject of which people who comment know less than 0.05%
If you have elderly people with good history knowledge, ask what going to Benin to buy "Ovieship meant". A Delta man in his 80s in about 1980 educated us about how they relate with Aka. Quite revealing. An average person from his tribe would totally dispute it today. The way Igbo today insult the Great Zik of Africa about the book written in early 1970s revealing Onitsha history and Benin origin. I meant rise of ethnic nationalism earlier. It grew steadily after Biafra War to what it is today.

The suspension of Oba's suzerainty over areas that Oba once held sway was a matter of Benin-British terms/pact of restoration of Benin Monarchy in 1914. For Oba to give up any rights of overlordship over areas outside what is now Edo South. Of course, many rulers outside Edo South still continue doing ancient requirements stealthily for sometime. To cement their legitimacy since succession disputes were still decided in Benin.

Even now, many of those rulers still pay private visits (not the usual thank you visit that comes after coronation) to Oba of Benin in the period, knowing it is part of ancestral or ancient practice. Obi of Iselukwu openly did his to Edaiken (His father Oba Erediauwa was in indisposed). Also in areas where succession disputes may occur, Oba's blessing is still valued, even prudent to have. The role of Oba of Benin resolving the Dein of Agbor Saga in late 1970s as he ascended the throne aged 2 was also clear. What are now being debated about Benin and Agbor history were not in question when Ben was aged 2. He was brought to Oba Palace before going to UK. Those of us old enough remember it well.

We see how the goal-post has gradually shifted since late 1970s.

Among all proper Edoid people, if you mentioned Oba back then, it meant only one personage: Oba of Benin. So no other related ruler would have assumed that title in the past. Elawure and Olu never used Oba title before. Even now, Elawure will never go to Benin and call himself Oba. He is Enogie. By the way, Elawure and Enogie of Utese are not the only so-called "non-edoid" Enogie in Edo South.

To truly understand history, one must do some own research. I have explained as much as I can. Or I will be repeating what I have done many times on NL before already about Oba title.

Very elaborate. You did justice to the subject matter. Brilliant 👏

TAO11:
You’re actually not well, are you?

Now go tell that to your brother whom you lied to: Tell him it was you in desperate need of my attention and not the other way round.

---

For the umpteenth time, bring [only] one link for this consolation you’re forcing down upon yourself.

Drop link to comments where you performed these wonders in an exchange with me. That shouldn’t be hard to do. Should it?

In contrast, I can drop multiple links for folks to read where you were beaten black & blue as I showed that your Kings are of Ifẹ-Yoruba ancestry, roots, & origin.

I can also drop links showing where some non-Yoruba readers (Igbos, Binis, et al.) on the culture section have expressed their conviction of this historical fact on the basis of my past engagements with you.

Do you see how it’s done? Now help yourself with the links, or take your “L”.

✌🏾

The battle has been lost and won. We on the winning side have to be magnanimous in victory.

Haven't said the above, it's worth acknowledging those that really pushed someone like me to the wall in order to peep beyond the Benin/Ife concocted narrative of 1897. After peeping backwards into Benin history earlier than 1897 I discovered that the Benin/Ife connection was a hogwash that has no historical backing.

As we say in Benin, when you beat a child, you shouldn't deny the child the privilege to cry. This is why your insults means nothing to me these days. One thing you must realise is that you are partly to blame for the the calamity that befell the Benin/Ife connection.

As Gov. Wike will say, As E de pain them, E dey sweet us.

As Gov. Tinubu will say, Balablu, bulabla, God bless APCPDP.

Peace ✌

AutomaticMotors:


Benin Kingdom had not mates in the past, present or future!

Until very recently the Benin people abdicated their responsibilities and allow others with ulterior motives to be writing our history. Various tribes are always in Benin doing all sorts of research to advance themselves. After Benin fell in 1897, various groups led by the yoruba started carving various aspects of the history for themselves. It was a scrabble..Whilst Eweka 2 was fighting to retain his father's stool, the yoruba with local collaborators were busy claiming the monarchy for themselves.

The saving grace is that the Europeans did a great job in documenting and archiving Benin history for over 400 years. Imagine if these archives were in Nigeria, they would have probably burned them down.

AutomaticMotors:


Bookmarked ⭐

Benin history is vast. Benin was the dominant force, kingdom and empire in ancient times. Benin history extended into the east, west and middle belt.

1. There is Benin/ Nupe-Igala relationship and Igala traditions acknowledged Benin dynasty in Igala land and seems to agree with the Imaguero history of Benin.

2. Olaudah Equiano who is believe to be Ibo referenced Benin in his book written in the 1700s as being his Kingdom, which means his enclave in the East (Igbo land) acknowledged Benin kingdom as the dominant kingdom in the 1700s.

3. There is Benin Lagos relationship recorded by the Europeans in 1602.

4. The Benin/Ida war was recorded in history by the European.

There is absolutely nothing that linked Benin to Ife throughout history until after the fall of Benin empire.

People with very limited knowledge of Benin history tried to understand Benin history from their local interactions with the kingdom in the past. An Urhobo perspective is different from Ika perspective. Igala traditions of Benin is different from Lagos traditions and perspective of Benin.

Benin history is huge and expansive, it's not a local Usen/Urhonigbe affair.

The Benin/Ife connection story reduces Benin history to insignificant, this is why experts whose Europeans ancestors have documented Benin history over the centuries can not stomach the disservice done to it.

Distortion No. 4

That the Igala Kingdom has never been defeated in any war in all of its history.

This statement is not true, as there are three or so recorded wars in which the Igalaa army was roundly defeated and had to beat a hasty retreat in each case. These are as follows:

The Benin Empires conquest and occupation of Igalaland in 1507 AD when the Igala army was no match for the more numerous soldiers of the Benin army
The Igala-Benin War of 1515-1516 AD; and
The Bassa Komo Rebellion in 1856 AD.
The first was the war led by a Benin Prince, Aji Attah (Ata) against Ata Ọgálá Eri in 1507. Robert Arthur Sargent, in his 1984 PhD Thesis, titled, Politics and Economics in the Benue Basin, reports that the Benin army had attacked, conquered and occupied the Igalaland to establish a Bini (or Aji Ata) Dynasty.

The second war in which the Igala troops were defeated was the Aji-Attah-Oba Esigie face-off – a war of two brothers having the same father – which early historians erroneously referred to-as the “gala-Benin War” of 1515-1516. Eight years after Aji Ata had conquered and seized the Ata’s throne and land, he mobilized the Kingdom’s army to fight and remove his brother, Oba Esigie who was installed in 1509 and take over the throne; but the Igala army was roundly defeated. While some settled at the present-day Ebu, near Asaba, others settled at Ibaji and Ilushi (Òjìgónó) area of Edo State.

Prince Okoliko, who later became the Ata-Igalaa between 1870 and 1876, had teamed up with a man named Ódomà Abáláká of the Òhiémi Ọ̀bọgọ Lineage to rustle the Bassa Komo camp at the present-day Ògwùmà on the bank of the River Benue when they were pouring into Igalaland in large numbers, fleeing from slave raiders, and were given refuge by Ata Aame Ocheje (1835 – 1856). Okoliko and Odoma had formed the habit of sneaking into the Bassa camp, stealing them and selling them into slavery. The victims sent word across to their kith and kin who mobilized a formidable force against their transgressors. In the war that ensued, the Igala army was driven into a mire and were killed in large numbers. Odoma and Okoliko narrowly escaped death, as their troops were mowed down by the aggrieved Bassa warriors.

A comprehensive account of the the Bassa Komo Rebellion, see the Postscript section of my book, titled, An Igala-English Lexicon, under the heading Odoma Abalaka (p. 619-620).

DISTORTION NO. 2.

That Àtá Ayẹ̀gbà Ọma Ìdoko sacrificed his beloved daughter, Princess Íníkpi, as demanded by the spirits of the land, in the wake of the Igala-Benin War; while her sister, Ọ́modòkó, was sacrificed in respect of the Igala – Jukun War.

Íníkpi was buried alive at Ọ́gbẹ́gà as the Igala-Jukun War was looming. The war was eventually fought about the year, 1690 AD, at the twilight of 17th Century. By this time, the Igala-Benin War had been fought and lost about 174 years earlier, when Idoko, Ayegba’s father had not even been born. After the Apa War ended in Ayegba’s favour, he celebrated his victory by sacrificing three more of his daughters, namely: Ọ́modòkó (who was buried on the western bank of River Ínáchaló) as well as Ónojò Alíkáà and Ónojò Alẹ́gbẹ̄ who were both buried at two separate spots in Ídá town.

Distortion No. 3

That a Muslim occultist from Bebeji on the outskirts of Kano was the Mallam hired by Ayegba to perform some rites on the western bank of River Inachalo at Ida while the Jukun (Apa) invaders were camping at the opposite bank of the river.

Miles Clifford, a colonial officer who had carried out a research into the Apa War, states that a Nupe Mallam called Edegi was employed to perform the rite mentioned above and was responsible for Ayegba’s victory in the war. Overjoyed by that historic victory, Ata Ayegba betrothed one of his daughters named Ódó, to Mallam Edegi in addition to the huge financial reward the king had gratefully given him earlier. Mallam Edegi had thanked the king most profoundly and, together with his own followers, he rowed upstream of the Niger towards Rabba (in Nupeland). He finally settled down at a place he named Àbó-Idá (Ídá people), which, over time, changed to ‘Bídā,’ as it is still called to date.

Still on Benin connection with Nupe-Igala Niger Benue confluence:

Excerpts Continue below...

DISTORTION NO. 1

The first distortion is that Àbùtù Ẹ̀jẹ̀ was the first Ata-Igalaa in history

This statement that Àbùtù Ẹ̀jẹ̀ was the first Ata-Igalaa ever is misleading, as Àbùtù Ẹ̀jẹ̀ (or his daughter, Ébúlẹẹ́jonú), belong to the Third Dynasty; that is, the ruling Jukun (or Apa) Dynasty, which, according to R. A. Sargent, commenced in 1687 AD, the same year the reign of the Bini Dynasty came to an end. The influx of the Jukuns, who had broken away from the Kwararafa Confederacy, occurred between 1597 AD and 1627 AD. At this time, the Aji Ata (or Bini) Dynasty, under which a total of six Bini-speaking Atas ruled, had forced itself on the Igala Kingdom in 1507 AD, forcing Ata Ọgáláà Eri to proceed on a sudden self-exile. It should also be noted that the Bini Dynasty was itself preceded by an earlier dynasty, the Ata Eri (or Igala) Dynasty. The findings of a 21-year research undertaken by the Catherine Acholonu International Research Centre, Abuja revealed that “Ata Eri was the ancestor and father of the Igalas and the founder of the still-surviving, ancient lineage of Atta Kings of the Igala nation.” Ata Ọgáláà Eri had succeeded Àtá Àtá-Ógwū, after whom the Àtá-Ógwū Hill (Ójúwó Átōgwu) on the outskirts of Ida town was named.

(ii) THE AJI-ATTAH (ATA) (OR BINI) DYNASTY

In the year, 1507, Ọba Ọ̀kpámẹ̀ Ọ̀zọ́luà of Benin ordered his son, Aji-Attah (Ata), to lead a segment of the Bini army against Ata Ọgáláà Erí at Ida, which prompted a sudden journey of the incumbent into self-exile, first, to the southern part of the Benue Basin, then later, to Nri in the present-day Anambra State. The Aji-Attah (or Benin) Dynasty, after one hundred and eighty years at Ida, was finally brought to an end by the influence of the Kwararafa traders-cum-warriors who were pouring into what, today, is referred to as the Igala Kingdom, which, according to Sargent and Miles Clifford, had been occupied by the “Okpoto tribesmen.”

Below is another perspective on Benin history. This seems to have make more sense. I believe 6 to 9 was manipulated in favour of Ife (Osun state) by Egharevba and Co.

FACTS ABOUT PA IDU

1. Pa Idu was born at Ogbe N’Alaka a place that eventually became the homestead of later Ogiso’s and Oba’s of Benin.
2. Pa Idu father was known as Ere (not to be mistaken as Ogiso Ere) he was the founder of Uhunmwundumwun (premier town), a place hundreds of years later Ogiso Ere moved the palace to from Ugbekun. Pa Idu father Ere, is where the ancient word Otamere (evening tide favored Ere) was created from.
3. Pa Idu is generally accepted as the Progenitor of the Benin race and all its descendants because the chroniclers of our remembered history, Ughoron; popularize his name above other native indigenes of which Idu came out from.
4. Pa Idu had three sons: Akka, Efa and Emehi. Efa and Emehi are the fathers of the modern day Benin population,
5. Through legitimacy of ancient ownership the Efa and Emehi families are the owners of Edo land as every other families came from them.
6. [b]Pa Idu died at Uhe(not to be mistaken as Ile-Ife) present day Igala areas of Kogi State and was referred to as Oghene N’Uhe by the earliest Benin natives, he was deified as a Priest King. The Chief priest and scepter bearer of the Oghene N’ Uhe shrine, Azama; followed Akka, Efa and Emehi back to Benin land and a replica of the shrine was built here in Benin land, the descendants of the Azama N’Uhe are the Oloton family of Benin and they are the custodian of the scepter of authority of Pa Idu carried by Azama and bequeathed to the descendants of Efa and Emehi.
7. Earliest Portuguese referred to Oghene N’Uhe(Pa Idu) as “Ogane” the great potentate of the interior.
8. All Ogisos starting from Ere to Oba Ewuare I all went on pilgrimage visit to pay respect to their progenitor at Uhe, a sort of confirmation and spiritual renewal ritual. A ritual also conducted by Ikaladerhan before he became a ruler in Ile-Ife.
9. When the later Oba’s of Benin discovered the complexity of the pilgrimage visit and the decline of the Uhe town they created “Erinmwidu” a replica of Oghene N’ Uhe Shrine and made it Royalty. Hence Erinmwidu is the royal deity of the Benin people.[/b]
10. Idusere, Idusogie, Idugbowa etc. reaffirm the Benin native ownership of Idu ideology hence Idu is Benin, Benin is Idu.

Let the legacies of Pa Idu be remembered by us all his children.
Pa Idu gha to kpere. Ise
Oba gha to kpere. Ise

Written by
Imasuen Amowie Izoduwa

Ryder summary make it clear that the Benin/Ife connection was a latter-day cock and bull story. A story that cannot be easily reconcile with Europeans recorded history of Benin from the 15th century. Those whose mission is to undermine Benin history have their work cut out for them because unlike our neighbours, Benin history is well documented.

The Benin/Ife connection posed so many difficulties that to accommodate it, expert have postulated hypothesis of some meeting point in the past between Benin and Yoruba around the Nupe-Igala Niger Benue confluence.

There are absolutely no evidence to suggest that Benin had any relationship with Ife between the 1400s till the 1800s. There were countless Europeans and Catholic priest resident in Benin in that period of 400 years to have missed such an important relationship.

The Europeans recorded the Benin/Ida war of the 1500s, death and burial of oba of benin in the same 1500s, Benin colony of Lagos in 1602 etc, yet nothing about Ife, a supposedly very important relationship.

TAO11:

This reply of mine is ONLY because you’re too stupid to be ignored:

How & why you lie to yourself and still believe your lie is something I have always struggled to unravel.

---

You mentioned my moniker three (3) times out of no where in one single comment where you’re engaging someone else in a comment unrelated to me.

And when I replied to your obsessions with me while challenging you on your self-consolation, you had to lie to yourself that it is I seeking your attention.

Are you sure you’re not already insane only waiting to roam Benin streets naked? [Serious question]

Stop believing your own lies today!

✌🏾

You were acknowledged and given some credit for pushing people like myself to unravelling the Benin/Ife fairytale as story that was concocted around 1897. You came out swinging.

What's wrong in acknowledging and giving you credit. I know you missed all that unending fairytales we used to debate here on Nairaland. I can understand your anger towards me for being one of those that killed your sources of happiness and relevance.

Anyway peace ✌

AutomaticMotors:


Why you dey waste your time lecturing him?

Some people have been miseducated to believe that Benin history started during the reign of Oba Eweka 2. They confined their understanding of Benin history within this period and are uninterested in anything before that because they know it will expose them.

Sometimes it's neccesary to engage people like these for the benefit of those that want the truth.

You will usually have two kinds of people, those that absolutely believe in their position for what ever reasons or agenda and are ready to defend it even with made up theories and a second group of people that are genuinely researching the truth and are not afraid of where the evidences leads them. These second sets of people usually don't have agenda and motives and are not limited in their data collection. They look at the entire picture and in this case the entire documented history spanning over 600 years.

We don't want people that are genuinely seeking the true history of Benin to be deceived into thinking that Benin history started with Oba Eweka 2 in 1914.

UGBE634:
how will you explain the Oba title and the Ososomaye juju, Sango, Orunmila into Benin city.

What makes you think or believe the Oba title is yoruba in origin?

Are you aware that it was the Alaafin that was met on ground as the leader of the yoruba people in 1826 and his title was recorded as Alaafin not Oba. I have also pointed out to you that Ibadan didn't adopt the Oba title until 1955. I am sure you are also aware that the Oba of Lagos was formerly known as Eleko.

When you have questions, you seek answers but in your case you pick few information and make up stories fill up any missing gab.

You start with your migration stories but you are not convinced by Benin sending for a complete foreigner, so you decided that Benin must have been conquered.

Tomorrow someone with your mindset will pick up from where your theory stop and build on it by filling any inconsistencies with their own theories. In hundred years from now a fairytales developed into what people wants to believe as history. This is what has been happening to our history since 1897. Luckily for the Benin people whose history was documented for centuries, it easy for us to go back and separate the fairytales from our real history.

You are entitled to believe what you like, I only engaged you and point out your inconsistencies for the benefit of future Edo people that may genuinely be interested in their authentic history, not made up stories and theories that is not earlier than 1897.

UGBE634:
Or are the Okun yoruba people of the Niger Benue confluence area the answer?


stop repeating this stance, just because the
Ogie of Urhonigbe uses Okaevbo does not mean his Original tribal title for king is not Ogie. it's not what should come out of your mouth as a rebuttal.

Or because the Ogie of Udo has the Iyase as his title does not mean that the title Ogie is not his tribal title for king

You are fixated with Yoruba. When you genuinely seek the truth, you must allow the evidence to lead you. You don't have a fixed position in your head and then look for evidence to support your position. You must be flexible in your thought process, not stagnant.

Several Benin people have looked at the Benin/Ife connection story and couldn't reconcile the story with Benin history as documented. The Europeans whose ancestors documented Benin history couldn't also make sense of it.

The yoruba people themselves can't come up with any plausible link between Benin and Ife older than the reign of Oba Eweka the second.

Whilst dismissing the Benin Ife connection, Ryder postulated that if there were any connection between Benin and Yoruba it would have happened way back in history around the Nupe-Igala, Niger Benue confluence.

Have you seen my thread on Pa Idu, I suggest you go back and read it again. The story of Pa idu seems to flow in the same direction with what Ryder postulated.

There is a Pa Idu shrine in Benin which the oba worship, there is no Oduduwa or Ife shrine in Benin.

There is absolutely nothing concrete on ground apart from word of mouth to link Benin to Ife. Nothing in history linked Benin to Ife but the Europeans did recorded in the 1400s that they were told of Benin pilgrimage site around the Nupe-Igala Niger Benue confluence. There are ancient Benin artefacts that seems to depict Nupe-Igala people.

You are not the only one seeking the truth about Benin/Ife connection. If anyone can provide concrete evidence to back up the connection earlier the reign of Oba Eweka 2, I will begin to take it seriously.

You agree that there are gaps in the Benin/Ife migration story, but you are willing to fill the gabs with your own theories.

AutomaticMotors:


Wetin this one dey type

She wanted me to notice her. She can go back and continue to read quietly.

AutomaticMotors:


That guy is a disgrace to himself and wherever he hails from like I can't even fathom how the guy brain dey tick ....

It's even more pathetic considering the fact that a lot of work have been done by Benin people on this forum over the years. He is very adamant and ready to invent stories and assumptions to support his position. I don't understand why anyone would want to undermine over 600 years of his people's history.

..

UGBE634 read through the list and see when the Oba title was adopted in Ibadan. Oba Isaac Babalola Akinyele 1955-1964

Ba’ale Maye Okunade (1820-1830)
Ba’ale Oluyedun
Ba’ale Lakanle
Bashorun Oluyole 1850
Ba’ale Oderinlo 1850
Ba’ale Oyeshile Olugbode 1851-1864
Ba’ale Ibikunle 1864
Bashorun Ogunmola 1865-1867
Ba’ale Akere I 1867-1870
Ba’ale Orowusi 1870-1871
Are Ona Kakanfo Obadoke Latosa 1871-1885
Ba’ale Ajayi Osungbekun 1885-1893
Ba’ale Fijabi I 1893-1895
Ba’ale Oshuntoki 1895-1897
Ba’ale Fajinmi 1897-1902
Ba’ale Mosaderin 1902-1904
Ba’ale Dada Opadare 1904-1907
Ba’ale Sunmonu Apampa 1907-1910
Ba’ale Akintayo Awanibaku Elenpe 1910-1912
Ba’ale Irefin 1912-1914
Ba’ale Shittu Latosa (son of Are Latosa) 1914-1925
Ba’ale Oyewole Foko 1925-1929
Olubadan Okunola Abass 1930-1946
Olubadan Akere I 1946
Olubadan Oyetunde I 1946
Olubadan Akintunde Bioku 1947-1948
Olubadan Fijabi II 1948-1952
Olubadan Alli Iwo 1952
Olubadan Apete 1952-1955
Oba Isaac Babalola Akinyele 1955-1964
Oba Yesufu Kobiowu July 1964 – December 1964
Oba Salawu Akanni Aminu 1965-1971
Oba Shittu Akintola Oyetunde II 1971-1976
Oba Gbadamosi Akanbi Adebimpe 1976-1977
Oba Daniel ‘Tayo Akinbiyi 1977-1982
Oba Yesufu Oloyede Asanike I 1982-1994
Oba Emmanuel Adegboyega Operinde I (1994-1999)
Oba Yunusa Ogundipe Arapasowu I (1999-2007)
Oba Samuel Odulana Odugade I (2007-2016)

UGBE634:
how do we now explain the Oba title and the strange gods? Can we settle for the fact that the Oba must have been an "Ekue"

Benin goes back into antiquity. I am sure you read the burial of an Oba of Benin that was written about in the 1500s. The writer said the tradition went back to ancient times, meaning Benin already had an ancient civilisation as far back as the 1500s. Did you read the summary of Ryder I just posted, read it. If Benin had any connection with the people that later became yoruba (oyo) it would have been in the Nupe-Igala Niger Benue confluence like Ryder postulated.

Also stop assuming that Oba is yoruba in origin. Every yoruba rulers had their individual titles such as Ewi, Eleko, Ooni, Alaafin, Olu, Baale etc, until very recently.

UGBE634:
Nazee this seem to be the closest way to the truth, maybe we have to really be serious with this search and get our brothers in those countries of portugal, dutch and others to interprete those early Bini works for us.

The Europeans have already done the interpretations of early Benin history for us and below is the summary.

davidnazee:


The dutch historian A.F.C Ryder points out in his work that… "next to nothing is known about the Yoruba people themselves at this early
date, and the assertion that Benin sent for an alien (yoruba) ruler instead of accepting one of their numbers was inherently implausible”

I believe we should be patient with UGBE634, he needs help. Hopefully he will see the truth.

UGBE634:
what do you want me to think, since it is proven Ekaladerhan died at Ughoton, an outright invite of a stranger would not make sense. The situation of a foreign culture (the Oba title already insinuate it is foreign)in another land most times involves blood and war- there is a missing link in history samuel

The very fact that a story doesn't make sense to you doesn't give you right to invent your own story to fill in the suppose missing gap.

Below is the summary of an extensive work done on Benin history by Ryder. What Ryder is saying is that the current Benin/Ife connection doesn't agree with what the Europeans recorded about Benin history from the 1400s or 15th century.

UGBE634:
I am up for truth and not partisan argument,why is the epicenter of the Edo Civilization using Oba instead of Ogie

If there is anything we can seem to take home is the fact that the Oba seem to be more western than anything else

The Oba title more than not seem intuitively not an Indigenous title, it is not what I can stomach, it is not what I have been able to digest.

To me there seem to have been a launch in attack and maybe the aborigines in Benin city were conquered and the Oba stool and title situated. That invitation does not really make sense to me, there is a missing link in history that is yet not properly explained

It would seem that the people migrated to the Usen area and an attack was launched at the centre to defeat those in charge and certainly take over power. That seem to account for the warlike nature of the ruling dynasty

Can you see how you are making assumptions to support your narrative. You are no longer convinced that there was an invitation but an attack that defeated the original Benin people, are you really serious right now? Not even the Alaafin and the Ooni went this far. Yet you claimed to be searching for the truth and defending Benin history.

UGBE634:
I never said Usen is a Yoruba town, I said technically[/b]meaning it is a yoruba town by [b]ancestry even though they have integrated into Edo.

But how do you explain the fact that Oba Eweka and Akenzua's history of migration was in tandem with what the Usen people have but only changed with Eredieuwa

The question you should ask is why did the history of migration started with Oba Eweka 2. Even in Oba Eweka era, Dr Egharevba was silent on Oduduwa's origin. Oba Erediawa only completed the narrative, he went back and gave reason as to why Oranmiyan was sent for... because they believe he was a Benin prince by blood. Even if the story was true, Erediawa completion of the narrative would make more sense because Benin was too established to invite a complete foreigner to rule over her.

There are several Benin oral traditions that revolved around several past Obas, the history of Oba Ewuare 1, Ewuakpe/Iden, Emotan, Imaguero, Esigie/Ida, even till Oba Adolor, the father of Oba Ovonramwen, etc. How come none of these oral traditions mention any migration from Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan.

Benin history didn't start with Oba Eweka 2 in 1914.

By the time you push the Benin/Ife connection backwards before the reign of Oba Eweka 2, the narrative unravel and fall apart.

What is the meaning of Ovonramwen in yoruba? Ovonramwen is just one reign before Eweka 2.

How come Oba Ovonramwen didn't talked about migration from Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan.

Why didn't Oba Adolor, the father of Oba Ovonramwen talked about Benin/Ife connection when he was extensively interviewed by Button in 1865.

Why didn't the Alaafin talked about Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan when he was extensively interview by Hugh Clapperton in 1824. The Alaafin talked about the oba of Benin in that 1824 interview but as a friend not a brother or children of Oranmiyan as was later claimed in the 1900s.

If you are really interested in the true history of Benin, you should expand your data collection beyond and earlier than 1897.