I wonder how all the above nonesense cited in my op ended up in the sanctified "sahih"(hadiths). Of course, those who derive their religion from it never see these crap in their cherished hadiths. They only see and pick out wat suits d ideology they wish to promote-which is just d fulfilment of an acurate prophesy in d quran(6:112). Bukhary who compiled these nonesense is given an honorable position in muslim history. This satanic individual is said to have gathered about 600,000 hadiths,where he sifted/ filtered through dem and finally collected about 6000.i.e 1% is what he found as credible. Part of 1% is wat i cited above.

Bukhary is said to have lived for 65 years. Lets use common sense here; is it possible for this individual to have traveld on many jorneys, collect 600,000 hadiths and verify them all? Can he possibly achieve this feat in his life time? Lets do a simple math here:

assume mr bukhary spent a mere hour everyday checking and verifying every hadiths he Had gathred. He would Require 600,000 hours to acheive this. But bukhary lived for just 65 years, which translates to(65x360x24)- 561,600 hours.i.e assuming he even started the moment he was born. As u can see, this is less than our 600,000 hours estimate.

I study the hadiths; but not to derive my source of religion from it. Instead,i use it to derive some historical account of the people of that era, as well as to point the contradictions out to those who bet their salvation on it. As we know, acceptance of history as true or not is solely at ones discretion. Cos history may be corrupted and presented as factual account.

Wish i got d energy to continue. I started dis thread to show u guys how satan cleverly duped muslims into following the nonesense called hadith/sunna. D videos are there. Whoever cares ,let him examine d evidence. Just because a book is said to be divine and originates frm God doesn't make it such. If that were the case, people of other faiths are correct wen they all claim their scriptures are frm God(rig veda,yujur veda,zend avesta,book of mormons etc). The quran gives clear evidence of how to distinguish human fabrications/conjecture from something of a divine origin.

whoever cares, may verify the evidence built into the quran by it's author, as a sign that the book is of divine source.

www.miracleof19.org

www.submission.org

www.masjidtucson.org

^^^
go on with wat u Believe(no compulsion is religion). For someone who can prove from the quran that the reason all existence was created was for the love God has for muhammad, what else can't u prove from the quran? I have given relevant verses, it's up to those who use their senses critically to examine them and reach a conclusion. I will just go on and give my second point.

so mr shia, as u can see; at the very foudation of what islam(submission to God) is, and represented by the shahadah-the shia and sunni are not at all in islam and are not muslims(submitters to Gods will). I wonder if the prophet ever uttered d shahadah with his name in it? Won't dat sound stupid?! him telling himself or God that he is a messenger of God? Just a thot!

2) chapter 72, Verse eighteen("72:18", tells the true believers never to call upon or invoke names other than God's in places of worship(masjids). Why do u defy dis and invoke muhammad's name alongside God's if u were not worshipping/idolizing muhammad? In Tashahood u invoke muhammad,abraham and others. In ur azaan(call to salaat) u scream out muhammad's name 5 times a day to the world, while accusing d christians of worshipping jesus.the very same thing u are guilty of. Maybe God forgot to tell us muhammad may be invoked With Him. U have no idea wat idol worship means as far as God or quran is concerned. U may look up the link i gave ealier if u care to know. "Absolutely, the religion shall be devoted to GOD ALONE"(39:3). Yes! Look at it again. Dat's wat d quran dictates to us, It's not a mistake. So lagoshia! Do u still think u have not made muhammad into an idol? Believe me, this is just a little glimpse of how satan used hadith to dupe the muslims. Today, u guys do nothing according to quran.from sallaat(contact prayer), sayawm(fasting), hajj(pilgrimage), zakat(due alms). In fact, everything is all just wrong. Stonning some mysterious pillar as a sybolic sign for rejecting satan(utter nonesense). Killing people termed as murtaad(apostate), stonning married adulterers to death(biblical origin). Forcing women to cover their hair. Preventing women from praying to God during their natural(God's design) menstruation. Cutting-off the theives hand(wonder wat kind of peaceful religion dat is? Quran never says cut-off).The list is endless.

^^^Sorry for the intermittent wirte-up.

continuing frm 2(i) above:
since God is d teacher of quran(55:1-2), and d quran contains no contradiction(4:82). We will observe how God exposes those without conviction/trust about God.

Thank God u cited verse(63:1), was just abt doin so wen u did. However, ur rendition, as always is false. The Verse unequivocally tells us dat only hypocrites(munafikuun) declare that muhammad is a "messenger of God". It went on to explain why that is the case. GOD clearly states in the verse that u don't have to declare to Him that muhammad is His messenger. What is d point of telling God what He already knows? Were u d ones who appointed muhammad as rasool(messenger) or God did? God deals with ur heart and not lip service. By following d quran, already suggest u believe muhammad was God's messenger . Why do incessantly repeat it to God if not out "hero-worship".

ii) God commands us never to make distinction amongst His messengers. Why then do u decide to have such a declaration for muhammad and not d other messengers(jesus, moses, abraham, isaac, lot, ishmael, zul kifl, job, noah, jonah, shuaib etc)? I will tell u why...., cos u idolize him, and don't care wat God thinks or commands u to do in the quran.

Here again are the list of verses enjoining true believers from making distinction amongst God's messengers2:136, 2:285, 4:150, 3:84). Obviosly, u do not agree with God.hence the reason u commit shirk(idol worship) by violating the shahadah(chp 3, verse eighteen) and ur insistence of putting muhammad's name next to God's. This wat quran terms as setting up partner besides God. Dis is cos God has got no partner ruling with Him in His dominion. HE is far above dat(23:92, 52:43, 59:23). Please show me just one verse in the quran where u have muhammad's name attached to God's in all the shahadahs, and i will wholeheartedly become a devout "SHIAH".

I am writing piecemeal cos am on mobile. Pardon me dat.

.......continuation.

verse("3:18", categorically dictates upon us wat the shahadah(profession of faith) should be. It goes like this: "shaheedah allahu, annahu LAELLAHA ELLAHU, wal malaikah,wa ullul ilm".

meaning: "God bears witness that THERE IS NO god EXCEPT HE, so do the ANGELS, and also those with knowledge/intelligence".

Literal meaning: shaheedah allahu(God's shahadah), annahu laellaha ellahu(is Laellaha ellahu), wal malaikah(also of the agels), wa ullul ilm(and those with intelligence/knowledge).

verse(21:25), tells us dat all messengers were inspired to proclaim this simple phrase to the people. But because of ur reverence for muhammad, u neglect this and proclaim a version with ur idol added to it.my question is why? Today u people claim This false version is d magical sentence that transforms a person into a "muslim". How can adding muhammad's name name next to God's reflect ones conviction or surrender or submission to God? Is it not enough one declares God's absoluteness without putting muhammad next to it?

^^^Continuation of (i) above.

here are the quranic verses: 2:163, 3:2, 3:18, 3:62, 4:87, 5:73, 6:102, 6:106, 7:158, 9:31, 10:90, 11:14, 13:30, 21:25, 21:87, 40:62, 40:65.

now, those are the complete verses where this statement(shahadah or testimony of faith) is cited. In all the above, not a single on of them do u find God put muhammad's name next to His. However, the shiah/sunni fabricated a version where they have injected the name of muhammad-their idol(against his will anyway).

Is it that God forgot to add muhammad's name next to His? Or didn't muhammad see it fit to add his name?

Peace mr lagosshia.

pardon my style of writing.there's usually some angry udertone to it. Perhaps,dats my own liitle shortcommings. It's just dat i feel bad wen i see a wrong portrayal of God and d messenger. I feel hurt wen i see God being made a joke of. Well well! Wat great exposition u put up lagosshia.as usual i do appreciate. D fact dat u embrace ur shi'ism and defend it at all cost is invaluable. Unlike ur sunni brothers who have no idea where they stand,except disguising under d auspices of "we are simply muslims".some don't even have an idea what they follow is sunni'ism.but u my friend....,is a proud shia. Am cool wit dat.

Since do not have time to continue merrygorounding the same things, i will only answer ur little query. U may review my original op to see why all hadiths have no merit as far as God and salvation is concerned.

Your query:

1)that i have called prophet an idol, and dats blasphemous.

2)that u do not idolize the prophet

wish i had d energy to engage u, but u are devoid of critical thinking and analysis.otherwise, i would've engaged u with barrage of thought provoking arguments.However, i respite for another time.

My answers 2ur queries:

1)i never said the prophet was an idol. I said the shi'i and the sunni made an idol out of the prophet against his will.in other words, u people idolize and worship muhammad without realizing it. Ur aversion to this fact stems from the hadiths u people uphold. I will prove to u that my accusations are dead acurate below.

2)yes! U guys idolize the prophet agaist his will,hence he is ur idol.

i)the very foudation of wat submission(islam) to God means, is represented by the statement called shahadah(bearing witness to the oness of God). This is the foundation of montheism/tawheed. This statement has been repeated many times in d quran, and not a single verse do u find muhammad's name put next to God's.

Will correct all typos when on pc.

the arabs of d time muhammad had their own idols(alat,uzzat and mannat). Today, the idols are different- they are in the minds of men.....the sunni/shia cheif idol today is muhammad(against his will). Muhammad preached monotheism and total devotion to God. He preached quran,Follow same. Peace!.


IDOL WORSHIP(QUR'ANIC PERSPECTIVE)
www.masjidtucson.org/submission/monotheism/idolworship.html

^^^Pardon d little typos.when on PC, i will modify.

....^^^continuation.

A reference was made to the quran as an evidence supporting the imamate myth. Now this is where i come in.never will i witness a deliberate distorsion of the quranic context without saying anything about it. Verse(11:73) was refernced,although acknowledged as abrahams "shiah"(follower/lineage/bloodline etc), but that was only a disguise towards building an illogical argument based on verse(33:33). Mr lagosshia, please explain to me in ur own words what u can fathom of the above verse(33:33),in view of the entire chapter at least.

On a final note: i do have this to say; u made reference to rashad khalifa. I hope u don't think i am like d ignorant sunnis and shi'is who idolize and worship their prophets and saints. No, far from it. Who was rashad khalifa? As far as i am concerned, he is dead and cannot help nor guide me, just as muhammad is dead and cannot help nor guide me. Only God remains alive,and in Him, i put all of my trust. That's why i follow strictly d word of God(quran). Whether u insult rashad or not adds nor takes anything from him,and it doesn't bother me. If he was a good man or bad man, his judgment lies with God. Nothing u or i can do to change that. The only link i have with rashad or muhammad or any true believer is the quran- the word of the omniscient being. He preached the message of God(quran) to the world, he called saudi arabia and all arab nations to return back to God's message and abandon their satanic ways.He was killed just for advocating God alone and rejecting all forms of idols, human or otherwise,which have been promoted/fabricated in the name of following God and d messenger.

Look at the sunni/shiah pathetic situation today. They all worship and idolize muhaammad against his will. They worship people they term saints(mythical imams). Unfortunately, they are not even remotely aware of it. I just wish u guys(sunni/shia) will transmute ur zealousness of defending nonesense into defending God and his message. Sadly,d sin God detests d most i.e idol worship(4:116, 39:65), is d wat the shiah/sunni are guilty of. They turn places of worship(masjid) into places where muhammad is commemorated alongside their other idols. Even when God commands against such(72:18). They have relegated God to the sideline(22:74).

Peace mr lagosshia!

u know..., i had thought it would be a futile effort replying u.however,i woke up this morning thinking if i did not reply u, u would think u had made a valid point and i had conceded to ur arguments.well, that's far from it.i just felt it was best i go about ma business, while u go about yours.

I try to be as objective a person as i can be. unfortunately,most religious people do not regognize the word objectivity. From the day u argued that the reason God initiated existence, was because of the love He's got for muhammad,i realized u were just another bewitched/indoctrinated religionist. Always knew d shia had their own share of illogical views like their sunni brothers, but never knew it was that extreme.

Anyways, i tried to give u the benefit of doubt, so i visited the website u suggested and perused their articles.thanks for giving me more reasons to hold on to d quran alone. I read an articles entitled:concise treatise on the 12 imams, also; traditions that specify the names of the INFALLIBLE imams. I am sorry to say this mr lagosshia, but if u go back to ur creator with this views/doctrines about Him- u would be debased.I am happy that u can only prove ur immamate myth by citing shia hadith/traditions just like the sunni's do too,but not with support from quran.

to be continued......using mobile phn...sorry

^^
U may also answer my questions in d op. Thanks.

^^

I have replied u @ d other thread.

also, the hadiths cited above are in ur so called sahih(authentic) hadiths. U may wish to point at which of them u would want me to follow. If d prophet is supposed to be a good example for us to follow, i find it hard to reconcile that with the hadiths about his character depicted in my op. Can a person who gouged peoples eyes be a good example to follow? Who narrated/Reported all these slanderous hadiths? the enemies of muhammad if i must tell u. They disguised their intentions only to fool gullible people. All d beautiful fable about the prophet in the hadiths can never lure me into accepting it(6:112-113).

^^^^
Which hadiths do u want me to accept?! Logoshia pls let's reason together. U as a shiah have specific hadiths/traditions u follow, in which ur sunni "counterparts" do not. So which do i follow? For instance: u believe in d so called 12 guided "imams" but the sunni rejects this. Why should i accept this idea?. The shi'is even believe these self appointed imams were infallible. How true mr lagoshia? If the person(prophet) they're supposed to be succeeding himself was fallible(cos he was human), how could these imams be said to be infallibe?

Peace lagoshia.

as always, i do appreciate your contribution.

as much as i would want to tread along your line of thought(accept some hadiths), i feel fervently disinclined to do so. You know y? Cos i am a rational and deeply reasoning person. I can never accept nor uphold any teaching that slanders God, promotes misogyny, insults the prophet, promotes polytheistic ideologies , promotes hate toward people of different faiths and denies the freedom of religion. Worst of all, these teachings turns people sheepish; they can no longer decide things for themselves except what the clergy decides for them. In doing so, they completely give up the greatest gift given to them by God- a reasoning mind.

mr lagoshia, did u at all watch d vids? Maybe one or two of em atleast? Pls do.

which hadith do u want me to accept?. The much honored "authentic ones"? Have a look at d vids. All d hadiths presented are the so called Sahih(authentic) ones. Is this where u want me to pick and choose my source of salvation from? All these authentic nonesense? It's like asking me to pick a candy from a mixture of candy and deadly poison and eat.

Peace tbaba.

would appreciate if you could give me some clarification regarding d hadiths i referenced above. Also, d quranic verses too.

others are welcome to try too. Peace

Peace to all!

been a few days since i posted this. I thought to give some days grace,perhaps someone would refute d arguments.unfortunately not so.


O^^^^^^^^^k! Mr Tbaba! Where were we again? Ah!....yes!
of course sir, didn't expect you to watch everything before you could at least make an input. If your above statement is all u could input in defense of an argument that seeks to expose d very foundation of what your religion stands for as being false. Then i am afraid such remark is un-scholarly.

mr tbaba, let's discuss d subject thoroghly. U can start by watching d first two videos at least. Thanks.

I BEGIN IN THE NAME OF THE SUPREME BEING...GOD ALMIGHTY!!

www.submission.org
www.miracleof19.org
www.masjidtucson.org
www.quranalone.com



Adapted From: 19 Questions for Muslim Scholars.



[size=15pt]1) Which Hadith Do You Believe Besides The Quran? (45:6)[/size]


>>"The Prophet never urinated in standing position" (Hanbel 6/136,192,213).

>>"The prophet urinated in standing position" (Bukhary 4/60,62).

>>"A group from the Ureyneh and Uqayleh tribes came to the prophet and the prophet advised them to drink urine of camels. Later on, when they killed the prophet's shepherd, the prophet seized them, gouged out their eyes, cut their hands and legs, and left them thirsty in the desert" (Bukhary 56/152, Hanbel 3/107,163).

>>"Moses was scared by the angel of death, thus Moses slapped him and blinded one of his eyes".

>>"I am the most honorable messenger, on the day of the judgment only I will think of my people" (Bukhary 97/36).

>>"Do not make any distinction among the messengers; I am not even better than Jonah" (Bukhary 65/4,5; Hanbel 1/205,242,440).

>>"Bad luck is in the woman, the horse, and the home" (Bukhary 76/53).

>>"If a monkey, a black dog or a woman passes in front of a praying person, his prayer is nullified." (Bukhary 8/102; Hanbel 4/86).

>>"The prophet gave permission to kill children and women in war" (Bukhari, Jihad/146; Ebu Davud 113).

>>"The earth is carried on a giant bull; when it shakes its head an earthquake occurs" (Ibni Kathir 2/29; 50/1).

>>"Leaders have to be from the Quraish tribe" (Bukhary 3/129,183; 4/121; 86/31).

>>"You shall kill all black dogs; because they are devils" (Hanbel 4/85; 5/54).

>>"God is the time" (Muwatta 56/3).

>>"To prove His identity, God opened his legs and showed the prophet His thigh." (Bukhary 97/24, 10/129 and the comment on the Sura 68.)

>>"The parchment that the verse about stoning to death for adultery was written on was eaten and abrogated by a goat." (Ibni Majah 36/1944; Ibni Hanbal 3/61; 5/131,132,183; 6/269).

>>"A tribe of monkeys arrested an adulterous monkey and stoned it to death, and I helped them" (Bukhary 63/27).

>>"When the prophet died his armor had been pawned to a Jew for several pounds of barley." (Bukhari 34/14,33,88; Hanbal 1/ 300; 6/42,160,230).

>>"The punishment for cutting the fingers of a woman is to pay her: 10 camels for one finger, 20 camels for two fingers, 30 camels for three fingers, and 20 (twenty) camels for four fingers" (Hanbel 2/182; Muvatta 43/11).

>>"The prophet had been bewitched by a Jew, and for several days he did not know what he was doing" (Bukhari 59/11; 76/47; Hanbel 6/57; 4/367).

>>"Muhammad possessed sexual power of 30 men" (Bukhary).

>>"Do not eat and drink with your left hand, because Satan eats and drinks with the left hand" (Hanbel 2/8,33).

>>"The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me except the Quran. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39).

>>"The prophet ordered Amr Ibn As to write everything that he speaks" (Hanbel 2/162).

>>"Omar said: Quran is enough for us, do not write anything from the prophet" (Bukhary, Jihad 176, Gizya 6, Ilim 49, Marza 17, Megazi 83, Itisam 26; Muslim, Vasiyya 20,21,22).


(If you want to check the references presented above, please note that, after the name of each hadith collection the first number is the number of the book (chapter), and second number is the number of hadith. For instance, 152nd hadith in the 56th book of Bukhary is expressed as: Bukhary 56/152. In few references, however, we gave the name of the book (chapter), instead of its number, such as: Bukhary, Jihad 176).

These are only a minute sample of hadiths which Muslim scholars accept as their second religious source and they accuse the people who do not accept these teachings of being diverted from the truth. The above hadiths are their truth. Now let's see what is the Quranic truth. Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but Quran


[size=13pt]QUR'ANIC PERSPECTIVE:[/size]

>>God revealed the Quran to Muhammad, His messenger and last prophet (27:6).

>>The only book that the messenger delivered to the world is the Quran (6:19).

>>The sole mission of the messenger is to deliver the message (16:35).

>>We must obey God's messengers (3:31-32; 24:56). Anyone who disobeys God and His messenger is a disbeliever (72:23).

>>We have been commanded to follow the Quran alone (7:2-3; 17:46).

>>The Quran contains everything that we need for guidance (16:89).

>>God did not leave anything out of the Quran (6:38).

>>Wisdom (hikmah) is in God's Quran; not necessarily in men's hadith (17:39; 36:2).

>>Anything that is not commanded in the Quran, God left it up to our minds and intelligence to decide (5:101).

>>The Prophet Abraham was the founder of Islam and a good example for us (22:78; 2:135; 60:4).

>>Muhammad was the follower of Abraham (3:68; 16:123).

>>All religious practices; daily prayers, obligatory charity, fasting, and pilgrimage come through Abraham (21:73; 2:43,127-128; 2:183; 3:43; 19:31-59; 20:14).

>>We should not follow any hadith besides the Quran as the source of God's religion (45:6).

>>There are those who use vain hadith to mislead people, without knowledge (31:6).

>>We do not need fabricated hadith, because the Quran is fully detailed (12:111).

>>The best hadith is the Quran (39:23).

>>The only sunnah (law) is God's sunnah (33:38,62; 35:43).

>>Those who decree religious laws never authorized by God, and their followers, are idol worshipers (42:21).

>>The Quran is fully detailed, not vague (30:28; 41:3).

>>Quran has been explained and detailed by God Himself (11:1; 75:19).

>>God is the teacher of the Quran (55:1).

>>The Quran is easy to understand for believers; while it is impossible for idol worshipers (54:17,22,32,40; 17:46; 18:57).

>>The Prophet Muhammad, as a good example, did not accept and follow any other source besides the Quran (5:48-49; 6:114; 10:15).

>>God guaranteed the preservation of the Quran, not the hadith (15:9; 36:69; 38:87; 41:42; 43:4; 56:78).

>>God's word is perfect (6:115). Those who follow conjecture are diverted (6:112).

>>God does not forget (19:64).

>>God does not run out of words (18:109).

>>Those who are not certain about the hereafter, are not satisfied with the Quran, they want to amend it with other books (10:15).

>>Those who divide their religion into sects are not followers of Muhammad (6:159).

>>The complaint of the messenger in the hereafter will be about the desertion of the Quran, not hadith (25:30)


[size=13pt]The same mistake[/size]

The Jews had received the Torah which was complete and fully detailed like the Quran (6:154; 7:145). However, they were not satisfied with the word of God, and asked irrelevant questions. When they could not find answers to their petty questions, they started to invent. This satanic attitude led them to produce Mishnah (oral) and Gemarah (traditions).

Just like the Jews, the Muslims fabricated many lies and attributed them to the prophet. It is significant that they called their fabrications Hadith (oral) and Sunna (traditions), similar to Jews. The ignorant people asked many irrelevant and absurd questions which have been criticized in the Quran (2:67-70; 5:101). For instance, which hand shall we use while eating? Which side shall we lay while sleeping? Which foot shall we enter with into the bathroom? Which hand shall we start to wash for ablution? How long shall we grow our beards? Which sequence shall we follow when we cut our nails? Which vegetables are most holy? These foolish questions encouraged many hypocrites to fabricate hadiths and attribute them to the prophet (6:112-116). It is significant that the most reliable books, for instance that of Bukhary, was written at least two centuries after the prophet died.
The Quranic prophecy about 'hadith' and 'sunnah'

The Quran prophesied that enemies of the prophet Muhammad would fabricate lies and attribute them to him(6:112-116). The Quran has named these fabrications "hadith" while naming the Quran "ahsanal hadith" (best hadith) (39:23). Obviously, God knew that the idol worshipers would call those fabrications "Hadith". It is interesting that they did not call their lies "Aqwal = sayings", "Akhbar = narrations", "Hikam = Aphorisms", or any other word from the rich Arabic language. They unwittingly termed their inventions "Hadith.". This is a fulfillment of the Quranic projection:

"This is not a fabricated Hadith. It is a confirmation of previous scriptures, detailing everything, and a guide and mercy for those who believe." (12:111)


They claim that the Quran is not fully detailed!! They thus reject God's repeated assertion that the Quran is "complete, perfect, and fully detailed" (6:19,38,114), and justify the creation of 60 volumes of Hadith, and thousands of nonsensical teachings that are supposed to complete the Quran. By reflecting on 12:111 above, one can see God's answer to those fabrications.


God informs us that we do not need fabricated hadith; that the Quran is all we need. Almighty God rejects both "Hadith" and the basic excuse for accepting it as a source of Islam. No excuse is accepted from the followers of hadith in this world, nor on the Day of Judgment. God asks them:
In which hadith, besides God and His revelations do they believe? (45:6)

They reply: "We believe in Bukhary, Muslim, Tirmizy, Ibn Hanbal, Kafi, Nahjul Balaga, and more besides God's revelations."


[size=13pt]God challenges the idol worshipers:[/size]

>>"Let them produce a hadith(narration) like this(Quran), if they are truthful." (52:34)

As a response, they slander the prophet in one of their holy hadith books (Abu Dawood): "The prophet, peace be upon him, said, 'I was given the Quran and a hadith like it'."

According to the Quran, there is only one valid sunna (law): God's law (Sunnatullah) (33:38,62; 35:43; 40:85; 48:23).
Unlimited hadith books besides the Quran

In both Sunni and Shiah sects the exact number of accepted hadith books is not known. However, Sunnis generally agree on six hadith books which are called "Kutubi Sitteh" (Six Books). These are Bukhary, Muslim, Tirmizy, Ibni Majah, Nesaiy and Abu Dawud. Additionally, they respect Muwatta, Darimy and Ibn Hanbal. Muslim scholars in many cases preferred Bukhary to the Quran. So much so that Hanafi scholars claimed publicly that hadith can abrogate Quranic verses. For example, according to them, 2:180 and 4:24 have been invalidated by hadith. In fact, all other sects also do not accept the judgement of these verses but they are not so frank.


a) What is your opinion on the hadiths I presented in the beginning? How many of them are correct?

b) How many centuries after the prophet's death was your most holy hadith book, Bukhary, written?

c) In how many correct hadiths do you believe?

d) If hadith is one of the most important sources of Islam, then why did not God preserve it like the Quran?

e) In which hadith do you believe besides words of God?

f) Why does not Bukhary narrate a single hadith through Abu Hanifah, but narrates from Marwan b. Hakam, a notorious murderer and drunkard who destroyed the original copy of the Quran?

g) Is the Quran perfect, clear, complete, and fully detailed?

h) Is the Quran easy or difficult to understand?

i) Why do you change the place of the word "alone" in 17:46: "... and when you preach your Lord, using the Quran alone, they run away in aversion"?

Please MOD(maclatunji), delete the other thread with same title. thanks!!

PEACE to anybody who takes his/her time to examine the Evidence presented.

Please do note that this is not a challenge to any Sect or group. However, do consider this to be an Eye-Opener into something you may never have given much thought about. This of course is intended to be for the "muslim" audience. To the muslims: if you observe anything within the content of the videos which you feel is out of place, please do feel free to throw your question(s) to me. God willing i will attend to them- God willing.

I chose to share this with you guys cos of the recent trend(shi'i Vs Sunni) i have observed on this section. Please watch the videos meticulously. I will appreciate if the following individuals gave their critique on this issue:

1)Tbaba 2)Maclatunji 2) Lagoshia

Others are free to contribute too.


To the Non-muslims:

The videos below are meant to expose the corruption that crept Into ISLAM after the death of Muhammad. This Corrupt teachings are found in Islamic books called Hadith/sunna. Muslims believe these sources came from Muhammad himself. However, what these videos serve is to refute such claim. It is through these sources that medieval Arab story tellers injected their pagan and foolish ideas into the religion preached by muhammad. These books insults Muhammad by making him: a tyrannical leader, a ped.ophile, a murde.rer, a misogynist, a sex maniac, a Hero, a noble man, a merciful person all simultaneously. In fact, these sources portray him as a man with phantasmagorical personality.

As you will see from these videos, the message of these foreign sources contradict the message of the quran;
which is the only book Muhammad ever proclaimed. With the quran alone, the message Muhammad preached becomes clear.

PEACE!!




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^^^^After many many years of assessing the human behaviour, i have come to realize why most people simply lack the capacity to comprehend. It's not that people aren't smart, but it is the-EGO-that blocks our understanding. Most people hold on to certain prejudices:cultura/religious conditioning and are unwilling to let go of such even if it violates commonsense.

Mr maclatunji, have you noticed that whenever i comment here on a particular subject, the first thing i do is to quote the verse of the quran clarifying such matter. Unfortunately, the very scripture people claim they acknowledge is from the most knowledgable being they treat with neglect. They resort to arguing in defense of why such proclamation in the quran is not "correct" knowingly or unknowingly. What a calamity!

As regards the topic, i had clearly given verses where God describes His omnipresence, yet, people still argue. What kind of reasoning is this? God's word?!

Have you ever wondered why God in the quran says most people are far worse than animals? Think about it. Peace!

PS: i am no quranist, i am a submitter(muslim in arabic) and i can prove my case for adopting that name.quranist are deviant sects whose got nothing to do with what i promote. Even though they appear similar in views, we not the same.

Sallam lagoshia.

pls do continue to note that the idea of us having this dicussions and similar is not to ridicule or mock ones belief. If anything, my own intention is to purge islam of any falsehood that crept in through the backdoor and to restore it to its pristine purity as praciced by muhammad and his good companions.

From the foregoing argument we had on verse 17:46, i will still reitrate that the translation of that verse as seen in most quran translation is wrong. And that it was deliberately so, in order to conceal the truth such a verse wishes to proclaim- that the quran should be the only source for advocating God.

U have just mentioned something from the thread we both visited a while ago. Mr lagoshia, do u in all honesty believe in Hadith/sunna? Do want us to have an extensive discusion on that? Pls reply. If u agree, then we would have to initiate a new thread for that. Now mr lagoshia, give me your final stand on my allegation against the deliberate mistranslation of the verse in question So we may discuss another.

@Frosbel

sorry about your ordeal in the hands of the not so tolerant mods on the other side. I feel your heart ache towards such behaviour cos i used to be treated same. Somehow, they have softened up on me recently. Anyway mr frosbel, i believe you not entirely forthright yourself. I remember commenting on one of your thread, and i made it clear to you then that these guys u know as "muslims" aren't at all muslims. And that if u were sincere on finding out about true islam we should chat. But u ignored. Obviously, u were just out to discredit the so called muslims regardless of whether they represent the true teachings of quran or not. Anyways, i'll say this again: todays islam has got absolutely nothing to do with God, quran or muhammad. Don't take my word for it. Verify the evidence: www.submission.org www.miracleof19.org www.19.org www.masjidtucson.org. Pardon any typo(using ma phone). Peace.

^^^^Mr lagoshia, thank you.

we dont' have to derail this thread. Maybe we should go continue our ealier discussion where we had stopped. Dramatic? Emotional? How and when? A new age sect u have insinuated; i think that should be left for the audience to investigate. Move over to the islamic section so we may further our discourse. Salaam.

^^^^Mr homer- you are partly correct. The attitude of the "muslims" toward criticism from other faiths is pathetic. How can u speak about other faiths and not expect others to do same? Such intolerance is unacceptable within the folds of intellectuals. However mr homer, i do not concur with the idea of judging a system(as islam) on the grounds of the behaviour of those who claim they are a part of such system. If one claims to be educated, don't we have to put him to a test to confirm such claim? In the same wise, we, the true muslims- the ones who follow true islam, we put the "muslims" to test everyday -check out our websites . Believe me; they fail all the time.

Www.submission.org www.miracleof19.org www.masjidtucson.org www.19.org

we live by Clear evidence and not faith. So also should any reasoning mind. Shalom!

^^^^Salam deols.
my question to u is: how can polygamy be done correctly? can u provide me with quranic verses justifying polygamy? Pls do. I really want to figure out how this idea came about. I believe it is important we study d quran carefully. When u are done, i will give u my rendition- God willing..

There can never b an excuse for ignorance; God out of mercy to us sends guidance to us via human messengers(5:19). God has given us a perfect mind to enable us distinguish truth from falsehood(17:36). Whoever lets go of his reasoning, does so to his own peril.

why would d most merciful and entirely just being(God), the orchestrator of the grand design we all witness around us, decide to subject all of us to a test in which failure to pass only results in eternal retribution; solely for the love of one man(muhammad) and his house hold? Is there any justice in that? Sighs.......!!!

[16:3] He created the heavens and the earth for a SPECIFIC PURPOSE. He is much too high, far above the idols(muhammad, jesus, Mary etc) they set up.

[30:8] Why do they not reflect on themselves? God did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, except for a SPECIFIC PURPOSE, and for a specific life span. However, MOST PEOPLE, with regard to meeting their lord, are DISBELIEVERS.

review also(10:15, 14:19, 15:85, 44:39, 45:22, 46:3, 64:3).

No human is better than another in d sight of God because of their societal status. God says....

[49:13] O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The BEST among you in the sight of GOD IS THE MOST RIGHTEOUS. God is Omniscient, cognizant.

Therefore, anybody who is the most righteous is the best according to Quran. It clearly means, d messengers may not necessarily be d best(of course, from Gods view point).

GOD's OMNIPRESENCE:

[2:115]To GOD belongs the east and the west; wherever you go there will be the presence of GOD. GOD is omnipresent, omniscient.

[50:16]We created the human, and we know what he whispers to himself. We are closer to him than his jugular vein.

Reminder:

[7:52]We have given them a scripture that is FULLY DETAILED, with knowledge, guidance, and mercy for PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE.

[10:37]This Quran could not possibly authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a FULLY DETAILED scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.

[29:49] In fact, these revelations are clear in the chest of those who possess knowledge. ONLY THE WICKED will disregard our revelations.

^^^Sallam.
I am very relaxed bro. Any reason why i should be tensed up?

I am very much Nigerian. Any particular reason for the spark of curiosity if i might ask?

With all the confusion, they yet fail to uderstand. And they say usisky is a misguided dude. "Kufr duna kufr" Indeed!!

[5:48]Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had God willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To God is your final destiny- then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.

sighs!!!!!!

[40:41]"O my people, while i invite you to be saved, you invite me to the hell fire.
[40:42]"You invite me to be unappreciative of God, and to set up besides Him idols that i do not recognize. I am inviting you to the Almighty, the forgiver.
[40:43]"There is no doubt that what you invite me to do has no basis in this world, nor in the hereafter, that our ultimate return is to God, and that the transgressors have incurred the hellfire.