^^^Oga, no too vex o and make u dey cool ur temper i beg. Na y i no dey rply u b dat. U too dey vex and na wen u like na im u dey cool.....vedaxcool(vex+cool ).
Anyways, go grab a literature on the subject.when u are done, Come back and tell me where u have discredited the allegations. And i think the learned audience should be the judge to dat. If u can't lay hands on a literature, make i refer u to one: INTRODUCTION TO THE QURA'N- by Ahmad Von Denffer.

read the chapter under abrogation of quranic verses(nasekh wa mansoukh). Peace

mkmyers45: so the Qu'ran has been adultrated by man?

vedaxcool: One would wonder hw u came about that conclusion.

^^^That is what you have implied by trying prove me wrong. In other words u agree with abrogation of quranic verses. Yet we all say we believe the God we worship is omniscient!!!

@Tbaba, lagoshia, maclatunji et al.

i sincerely apologize. I think my approach seem a bit obtrusive. We will never reach any form Of understanding this way. It's human nature to resent the idea that someone believes he knows something they don't. And i feel people like to discover things for themselves rather someone pointing it out to them. So my good friends, tbaba And lagoshia et al. I will recommend the following books:
1)quran, hadith and islam- by rashad khalifa.
2)hadith: a re-evaluation- by kassim ahmad
3)origin of hadith- by ibraheem mustafa
4)the criminals of islam- shabir M.D

The first three you can download from: www.submission.org or www.masjidtucson.org just make a search.

the last one you can google it.

If you can't find them. Then please tbaba and lagoshia, just drop ur email ads and i will make them available to whoever is interested. Please keep an open mind. It won't hurt any of u if u read any of d book anyway. I know none of us can claim to have all the knowledge in d world. We learn everyday, and we never know where that little info dat may change our views lie. At least we all agree the quran is d word of d infallible being-masha'allah.

@Maclatunji- sallam

i appreciate honest comment.have U honestly observed around u, what d world thinks of islam today? Why is islam d way it is today? I don't debate or argue for the sake of it. I do it because d image of islam is what i am trying to redeem. I am of the opinion that the hadith is d reason islam is seen as evil and an intolerant religion. When u are done studying d so called "sahi'h hadiths" then come back and tell me am wrong. Study the history of hadith, the era of the compilers, d part of d world they emerged frm. U would realized this were enemies of the prophet at work as prophesied(6:112). Quran by itself is beautiful. Later sir, got some work to do. Sallam

.....Continuing from where i stopped earlier.

I had cited only two instances of how d muslims do not follow d quran. There hundreds of other cases.

I would want some rational explanation why muhammad will tell us a certain command has been issued by God, when it's time for him to now demonstrate such a command he goes on does something else. Where is God's omnisciensce if that's d case?

I follow d quran alone because i am afraid of the same retribution muhammad said he feared if ever looked elsewhere than the quran(6:19, 17:73-75).

to be continued....

^^^Thanks for the enlightnment.
i agree with u. I agree that context must be looked at. Pls read d entire sura and especially: 6:38, 6:112, 6:114, 6:115.

no amount literature u cite will make neglect d word of the most cognizant. U seem to think i grew up with this belief of mine. I was in position too a while ago. I don't think there is hardly any islamic literature i did not aquaint with. The fact remains.....word of men remain word of men.

@Tbaba

this will be my final response to u. If u do not get this final logic, then there's nothing i can possibly do. My duty as a follower of quran is to remind. I cannot guide anybody, only God guides those who deserve it by virtue of the belief they have in them(10:9).

God, the almighty.the author of the quran has said:
In(3:7), that the quran contains "straightforward verses" as well as "allegorical ones". As such; the allegorical ones is only discernable by God and those well founded in certain kind knowledge.

Let us not concern ourselves with the allegorical ones. Now, the author of the quran says: "the straightforward verses constitute the essence of the scripture".
The import of this statement cannot be over emphasized.

According to the author of the quran; anybody whose brain is still funtioning should be able to discern the meaning of these direct verses.

upon this statement; i present the following test for u tbaba:

1)ablution: this ritual is mentioned in 5:6, and only four steps are mentioned. The verse is straightforward. Please tell the audience following along with us if u do perform it Exactly as stated by d almighty God who never errs?.

2)tone of sallat: it is mentioned in 17:110, that all sallat should be uttered in a moderate tone. Please, do u say all ur sallat exactly as commanded by the most wise? Or do u say some silently and some aloud?

If u do the two above exactly. Then i rest my case. If not, then i argue further:

a)that based on this straightforward illustration: arabic knowledge or historical context of revelation is never a criterion for understanding d message of d most gracious.

b)in case u bring up argument such as: circumstances led to the modifications of the above commandments. Then i say onto u, that u have just stripped God of His omniscience. because, if u believe God is omniscient; u would understand that His commands are final, because He has forseen all d possible permutations that may arise.
to be continued.....

^^^Thanks for your comprehensive "rebuttal".

"those people"? So the polytheist don't exist no more? Let me prove to they still exist.

let me test the argument put forth by the said verse.
Mr lagoshia, is it ok to advocate God using the quran alone and nothing else?

if you agree, then u are exempted from the category suggested by the verse.

if not. I can't help but say the Argument advanced by the said verse has been confirmed.

sallam

@Tbaba - peace
LoL @ your differential eqution analogy. Abi na convoluted integral? Abi na linear/exponential/regressional integral. I dey laff o.

On a serious note; your gymnastics did not explain anything to me. "We did not leave anything out of this book". The keyword is nothing/anything.

»»To understand d quran i need to know d historical context abi? Well this Is ur personal opinion mr tbaba. This is what muhammad told us: review(17:45, 18:57, 41:44, 56:79).
make i observe my contact prayer first.

@BIGER BOY- again; i say sallam

4:65 ? You and many people i have chats with regarding the subject of hadith always bring up such verse and similar ones you have consistently repeated.it is though u all are getting your info from same source. This only suggests to me that this is what you people have been taught and u gladly obliged without corroboration with the entire scripture. Let me point out your mistake.
1)from the other thread i initiated: scriptural mistranslation. I had boldly asserted that: one d reason i believe the muslims do not understand the quran, is because they tend not to look at a verse under consideration in view of the entire quran or al least the complete chapter where such verse is.
here, i will confirm my assertion to be accurate yet again.
Now, based on what u trying to indicate: that we must allow d messenger judge our disputes if we are truly believers. And that his(messenger) rulings can be found only in hadiths right? now this a terrible conclusion. Why?
»»what is the source of the messenger's rulings?
if you had read the entire sura,clearly, u would have realized that God commands the prophet to judge all matters based on the quranic law and not his personal opinions.
In(4:105), God categorically tells the prophet to judge using the quran and not his own wishes or others.
Also(4:58) confirms similar message.

God calls the quran the statute(furqaan) book(2:185). I ask; what is the meaning of statute? It means quran itself is the law.

you tend to forget that the quran was recited by prophet muhammad From his mouth directly. What other book can we call the hadith of muhammad if not the quran he recited? Think about it!

i will deal with the others God willing. Peace

@Tbaba
i know where you heading to. The concocted concept of reason for revelation(asbab al-nzl) is a complete joke. The quran is The word of the almighty. Whatever example we find therein is to serve as a lesson or a law. While u agree with Scholars who invented these lies, u yet fail to ally yourself with the message muhammad proclaimed.i was not present during the time of the prophet, neither Were u or the so called scholars who invented these lies.God says"none can inform us like the most cognizant"(35:14). I think i'd rather trust what i can fathom from d quran,than to trust some misguided mullah(s). Without much ado, i will like u to please explain to me and all what is meant by the following quranic proclamations:
1)"we did not leave anything out of this book" chpt. 6: Verse thirty eight.
2)"the word of your lord is complete" 6:115
3)"remind with this quran those who reverence my warnings" (50:45). Why specifically the quran?
4)"He is the witness btwn me and u that this quran has been inspired to me to preach it to u and whomever it reaches"(6:19). Again, why specifically the quran alone?

these will suffice for now.

[2:170]when they are told, "follow what God has revealed herein", they say, "we follow only what we find our parents doing".what if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?

@Tbaba- sallam
thanks for kind words.
the following is enough to religate such a thought you have presented:
study: 26:198-200.
study:41:44.
note: i said "study" and not "read".
when u have fully meditated on the message the almighty wishes to convey there, Come back make we gist more. Peace

@BIGER BOY
what more can i say?

Regarding the false reference: no be my fault oga. Na the nairaland Code dey seem to chop the numeral eight wen i write am. Anyway, the verse is: sura al-an'am, verse thirty eight. I.e 6:thirty eight. Sallam

@Lagoshia- peace
now you are talking! You need solid proof as to why the hadith in its entirety should be rejected right? I will do that God willing. Before that; i will want you to do me one favor. Since you know arabic; this is what i want you to do:
1)check all the references made to the word hadith in the quran and observe what those verse are trying to indicate.
2)look up all the verses that talk about upholding the quran alone and consequence of failing to do just that.
i want you to be the one to discover things for youselF. It's really sad that people hate to read. You complain that my post was lengthy. In truth, it's not. If you are sincere, you will present your findings here; then we may advance further. If you can't find all the references, alert me so i can provide them. Sallam

@BIGER BOY - PEACE

Thanks for replying. Mr, have you noticed that you never really touched on the key points i raised in the op? Instead, you merry-go-round the same things; raising more questions. What really was the body of my op?
1)to begin with, i gave verses from the quran where the author says the following about the quran itself:
a)nothing is left out of it(6:38)
b)perfected verses(11:1)
c)a complete scripture(6:115)
d)no ambiguity(39:28)
e)all possible examples have been cited therein(17:41,17:89,30:58)
f)God does not suffer shortage of words(18:109)
i would expect you at least said something about those citations.

2)the main argument in the body of the op you did not address. I had cited numerous examples of word to word correspondence between the word in contention and how they are also likened to previous messengers prior to muhammad. And that that alone suggests that the idea of using the word(hekmah) as an argument was fallacious. Yet, you did not even try to debunk that assertion. In a benign fashion you side stepped the real argument by intrducing more questions.
Read the op again and come back with clear rebuttal concerning the particular argument: can the use of the word "al hekmah" in the quran be used as an argument to support hadith advocacy? Please i need concrete proof, i am here to learn too.
i will address your other points shortly, insh'allah.....

One other critical verse i would want us to look at also is 33:56. This one of the most abused verse of the quran due to wrong interpretation. The muslims use this verse to idolize muhammad against his will. I think the right candidate to discuss that with is Tbaba. But lets wrap up this one first.

@Lagoshia

let me give you a litlle quote. It is said that:
"when you lie once,you need to lie more to cover up the first lie". This is the reality the muslims are faced with today. They invented indefensible lies, when people began to question such idiocy- they had to lie more to cover up. They forgot that inevitably, truth always prevails over falsehood.
is this how you reply to all i have said in the op? Give me quranic references, and expound on them. Please if you have any proof present it here in writing. I am using my phone so i can't watch d vid.
»you people often repeat these verses:
"in d messenger is a gud example", "whatsoever d messenger gives u take it" and "obey allah and obey d messenger". And all that yiddish. Yet i ask; do u really know what these statements mean In the light of the quran? If U believe these as a proof for anything, pls mr lagoshia- open new thread and provide your argument and i will give mine too. Always observe d difference btw u guys and me. I always use quranic verses in backing up my argument. Do same.

Mr Biger Boy. Am Waiting.....

Lagoshia et al. Where art thou?

mind you, this na just one verse.

I BEGIN IN THE NAME OF THE MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE

@lagoshia. Peace and Pardon my late response

you have said:

LagosShia:

i will try to explain to you and inshaAllah you will understand.i see your sincerity otherwise i would have simply laughed at your supposition that we are told to follow the Quran alone.

the contentious part of the verse is:

"wa iza zakarta rabbaka *fil Qur'ani wah'dahu* walaw alaa adbaarihim nufura"

now ask yourself this:why was this verse revealed and why did the people described therein used to turn away in aversion?

first,let me translate that part of the verse in the way i believe is correct and in the way you mistranslated it.

my way :
*And when you mention your lord, in the Quran, alone*, they run away in aversion.

the above is the word for word translation verbatim i have given on my own.

your way:
*And when you preach your lord,using the Quran alone*, they run away in aversion.


let me now clarify the points:

1.) there is no where in the verse that indicates that the people turned their face because it was the Quran alone that was "used".

2.) a literal translation of the verse shows that it is when Allah in the Quran is mentioned alone that they show opposition.

3.) this is a clear case of tense and context.you can either say THE ALONE part refers to "Allah only" or "the Quran only".

i asked a question:to who was this verse addressed? this verse was addressed to the polytheists who had many gods and not to a muslim or any muslim or sahaba who believes in only One God (Allah).the polytheists turned away because Allah in the Quran is mentioned alone.therefore it is not because Allah was only mentioned in the Quran but Allah alone is mentioned in the Quran unlike their belief in many gods.so this is the context of the verse.if we go to hadith we also see places where Allah is mentioned alone and in fact i can say no one else besides Allah.are we to reject that because Allah must only be mentioned in the Quran alone/only? i dont think so.

I had asserted here>>>https://www.nairaland.com/802617/questions-muslims-those-who-want/11



That scriptural mistranslation is largely responsible for doctrinal garb. I also stated that the current doctrine on which islam is hinged upon is as a consequence deliberate mistranslation of the Quran by the tradition muslims translators in other to conceal the imminent contradiction between what they practice/believe. And i maintained that todays islam has got nothing whatsoever to do with what the Quran teaches or what muhammad ever preached.

And also, that the so called Hadith/sunnah are satanic innovation skillfully attributed to prophet muhammad. They defame his person, they are blasphemous,contradict common sense and totaly negate quranic principles.

Mr logoshia, you would agree with me that: in order for our religious doctrine to be accurate, it is critical that the scriptures which they are based upon must and should be clearly and accurately translated. Threre cannot be a compromise, because we are talking about either eternal grace or eternal damnation.

From our discussion, i claimed that the Quran prohibits using other sources outside of it as religious guidance. Meaning; Quran alone is sufficient for our guidance. I asserted that there were enough evidence from the quran itself to suggest this position, and provided just one of such verses which i deemed sufficient. However, i brought that one verse into view in order to demonstrate that the current Quran translations of the verse(except the one i have and newer translations) were deliberately mistranslated to conceal the contradiction between the current islamic doctrine/belief and the Quran.


HERE is my translation:

[17:46] We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. *And when you preach your Lord, using the Quran alone*, they run away in aversion.[Rashad Khalifa’s Translation]

HERE is Yours:

[17:46]And we place sheilds over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness.* And when you mention your lord alone in the Qur’an, they turn back in aversion*.[Sahih international]

I do recognize that no two translation can be exactly thesame. However, they must convey thesame meaning and present the correct context for it to pass as correct. This is very true, especially if the verse in contention directly affects the crucial aspects of our established doctrine.
Now, i did highlight to you that your translation is incorrect, just as many other popular Quran translations. I am glad that the Arabic is well preserved.

The part in contention i have placed in asterisk above. And here is the arabic transliteration again:

“Wa iza zakarta rabbaka*fil Qur’ani wah’dahu*”

You subsequently translated the asterisked part based on your own understanding, and this is what you wrote:

“And when you mention your lord, in the Qur’an alone, they run away in aversion”.

Now this, is in fact very correct too. However, you went further to claim such rendition makes no difference than that of your original translation from Sahih international. But i disagree totally.

Here is what you said:
I will provide detailed explanation, but first, let me address your points:

ANSWERS :

To 1&2 above:

>>>Your failure in understanding the verse stems from the fact that when you read the Quran, you do not consider that the Quran may be addressing you in particular.

The other reason i suppose is the cause to why the muslims do not understand the quran is that they tend to consider the quranic verses in isolation of each other, and not in view of the entire quran or at least the complete chapter in which the verse under consideration is.

To 3 above:

I disagree with that. There is a huge difference between “mention your lord alone in quran” and “mention your lord in quran alone”. My complete response will be given in “PROOF” part.

Who are the they you are talking about? I know you are trying to use the usual tactic the islamic apologist use. You are trying to indicate that the verse is referenced to a specific group in the past. Even if true, it is there in the Quran for a reason. This is because the quran says it is a reminder for the people(7:2 etc), and also guidance and mercy(16:64 etc). In view of this, whatever we find in the quran is to be taken as is.


PROOF:


The words in 17:46 sound out a clear message yet this too was manipulated by the scholars who find it hard to devote all the religion to the name of God alone.

The correct translation of 17:46 is as follows:

“when you mention your Lord in the Quran alone”

However, the mentioned scholars interpret this verse by changing the order of key words to mean:

“when you mention your Lord alone in the Quran”

By changing the order of the words they categorically change the meaning of the verse as indicated. This clear manipulation can easily be exposed in the light of the Quran. We have no less than five solid pieces of evidence to confirm the correct meaning of 17:46:

1- The key word “alone" (wahdahu) is deliberately placed by God after the word “Quran” and not after the words “your lord”.

if God wanted to say (if you mention your Lord alone in the Quran) God would have placed the word “alone” after “your Lord” and not after “Quran”.

2- The key word “alone" (wahdahu) appears in the Quran a total of 6 times. In five of these occurances the word 'wahdahu' is placed after the word God, but only in 17:46 does this word come after the word Quran. Considering the word 'rabak' (your Lord) appears in 17:46 God could have placed the word 'wahdahu' after the word 'rabak', (if that was the intended meaning) just like God has done in all the five other accurances. But the deliberate placing of this word after the word Quran confirms that God wants to say Quran alone, and not God alone. The five other occurances where the word 'wahdahu' comes after the word God are 7:70, 3:45, 40:12, 40:84 and 60:4.

3- God tells us in the Quran that the book is clear, easy to understand and has no ambiguity:

“An Arabic Quran, without any ambiguity” 39:28

"A.L.R. These are the signs of the clear book" 12:1

"We have made it (the Quran) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed." 44:58

God being the All Knower, knows that this verse will be subject of deliberate manipulation, and for that reason alone God would not place the word “alone” after the word “Quran” when God really wants to say “your Lord alone”.

Only the ones who trust God and believe that the Quran has no ambiguity will have this certainty. On the other hand, those who disbelieve God’s words in (39:28, 12:1 and 44:58) and believe their scholars and Imams who tell them that the Quran is very difficult to understand, they will not see the simple meaning in 17:46. This is a key issue in understanding the Quran.

The hypocrites will say things like: “Oh, but in the Arabic language we can place words in different orders”! That may be true, but the bottom line is that God knows all the grammatical allowances of the Arabic language, but it is more important for God to give us a direct and simple meaning rather than to give a disputed meaning just because the grammatical variations of the Arabic language allow it.

I stress once again that this understanding can only be attained by those who believe (39:28, 12:1 and 44:58).

4- Further to the above, let us assume for a moment that the correct meaning is:

“if you mention your Lord alone in the Quran they run away in aversion”

If we stop for a moment and consider this meaning we find that it is a physical impossibility to read the Quran and mention the name of God alone! The Quran is full of other names: messengers, angels, etc even SATAN self. So by simply reading the Quran we must mention all the names written in the book (whether we like it or not), they cannot be omitted.

But it is possible to mention, commemorate and praise God by using the Quran alone.

So the false meaning which they attempt to inject in 17:46 is not feasible. They think they are clever, they think they can get away with it, but God is more clever and their corruption is naïve and is always exposed by God.

5- If we read 17:46 one more time, we can clearly see that from the beginning of the verse till the end, the subject is the Quran:

"We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Quran alone, they run away in aversion." 17:46


oya carry go. rebut.

I BEGIN IN THE NAME OF THE MOST HIGH.

@BIGER BOY

this is what you said from this thread>>> https://www.nairaland.com/802617/questions-muslims-those-who-want/12

BIGER BOY: What I whsh to verify @ usisky is :

With all due respect are you a Muslim? My question arises from your choice of terminology when u type, they r a bit strange to the Islamic 'register'

I quoted for you the Quran (not the Hadith) to prove to u that the prophets lifestyle known only through authetic Hadith is also a source of authority in Islam

Passionate appeal void of backing of the Quran ( which I assumed you should be well versed in since it is ur only authority) is meaningless to me.

If you are not well grounded in that which you profess, then why should the seeing follow the blind?

"and We revealed to you (O Muhammad) AL-KITAAB and AL-HIKMAT and we taught you that which you knew not..." Quran -nisa

I suppose you can elucidate the meaning of the two bolded to us, O you person of the Quran.

the Quran says we should preach kindly and intelligently(16:125),so i have no choice than recourse to that.


One thing you should understand is: when you talk this way, you are simply trying to prove the very scripture you proclaim as the word of God wrong.
the positions i assume, are simply a reiteration of the message the Quran reverberates.
I assume you are an adult; maybe over 25 or so. So, before i address your Question, i will make these general statements.
"Anybody, who agrees 100% with his/her religion of birth(Islam or Christianity) as they are practiced today,really does so due to brainwashing and ignorance"

"Anybody, who cannot question anything in his/her religion of birth even when it contradicts common sense, simply does so out of blind faith".

"The sincere seeker, is one who accepts truth when clearly elucidated and Evident"

The quran proclaims that:
1) nothing has been left out of it(6:38)
2)its verses have been perfected(11:1)
3)harbors no contradiction(4:82)
4)Contains no ambiguity(39:28)
5)it has cited all kinds of examples for our guidance(17:41, 17:89, 30:58)
6)the revelations are very clear;as such,only wicked person(s) will contend it(2:99, 22:16, 24:1)
7)it is easy to remember/understand(54:17,22,32,40)

Now my dear friend, if you truly believe the above, then i do not need to go further in proving to you why the Hadiths and/or sunnah is not part of islam. And that your idea that the word Hekmah(wisdom) as used in the Qur'an(e.g 2:151, 2:231) refers to another revelation(Hadith/sunnah) is grossly false.

In case you maintain your view, then here are my proofs:

Before i continue, i would want you to know that i do understand that people are sensitive about the issue of religion.
And more often than not, they get too too personal about it.this is the reason i eschew such discourses, especially those unrelated to my beliefs.However, i simply cannot stand aside while a group of people promote a false representation of God, the Quran and Islam without me doing anything about it. And it will be erroneous of you to posit that i am some ignoramus or misguided individual. Cos, as far as true Islam and the Quran is concerned, none of you here can challenge me on that basis. this is because i stand by the Quran Alone; and it Alone provides all the solutions.If you doubt my challenge,then muster all you can of islamic literature from all your scholars and sources,open a fresh thread and lets commence.this challenge is open to all.


DOES HEKMAH(WISDOM) AS USED IN THE QURAN(e.g 2:151) REFER TO A DIFFERENT REVELATION OTHER THAN THE QURAN

NO IT DOES NOT!!

This false interpretation(that hekmah is revelation a.k.a Hadith/sunnah) was first promulgated by Imam shaf'i. Shaf'i had suggested that since the verses in question e.g 2:151, had made mention of "Scripture and Wisdom" in the same sentence, its only interpretation in none else than to mean another revelation(which he suggested are the Hadiths/sunna).

Where is Shaf'is evidence to further substantiate his claim? no where to be found!!! unfortunately, the muslims scholars picked up where he left off, and simply advanced this theory as though it is a fact. this is largely due to their lack of understanding of the Quran,hence the aversion.
I will provide ample proof because this subject is quite centeral to islamic theology. As usual, i recourse to using the Quran alone and the little God given wisdom i have.


CLEAR DECEIT:

Due to the fact that the Quran did not contain any mention of the words ‘Sunna’t Muhammad’, the ardent Sunni’s found it necessary to manipulate the meaning of some Quranic words so as to create a Quranic reference to their cherished ‘hadith’ and ‘Sunna’. Many sunni Muslims refer to the word (Al-Hekmah) as mentioned in 2:129,2:151, 2:231, and 33:34, when they talk about the hadiths and sunna of the Prophet Muhammed. They claim the word Al-Hekmah in these verses refer to the Hadiths and Sunna of the prophet Muhammed. That is FALSE.

This word (Al-Hekmah) as found in a number of verses as:

"Remember God’s blessings upon you, and what He sent down to you of the ‘Al-Ketab’ and ‘Al-Hekmah’ to enlighten you with it." 2:231

Literally speaking, the meaning of ‘Al-Ketab’ is the book (the Quran), and ‘Al-Hekmah’ is wisdom. Nevertheless they interpret ‘Al-Hekmah’ here to mean the Sunna(actions or deeds) of Muhammad. However, with a close inspection of the Quranic verses, it can be shown that this interpretation is a total corruption. This is due to the following reasons:

ONE :
The word ‘bihee’ (with it) that appear at the end of the verse, is in the singular mode, in other words it describes one thing and not two. For that reason the words ‘Al-Hekmah’ and ‘Al-Ketab’ must denote one thing and not two, unless of course God is making grammatical mistakes!
If the words ‘Al-Hekmah’ and ‘Al-Ketab’ really referred to the Quran and the Sunna, then the verse should grammatically end with the word ‘bihima’ (with them), which is the plural mode of ‘bihee’.

TWO :
The word ‘Al-Hekmah’ is used throughout the Quran as an adjective of the ‘Al-Ketab’ (the Quran). This is made evident in the following verses :
"Y.S., and the Quran Al-Hakim" 36:1-2
"This is what We recite to you of the ‘Ayat’ and the ‘Zekr Al-Hakim" 3:58
"A.L.R., these are the signs of the ‘Ketab Al-Hakim" 10:1 also 31:2

THREE :

The same word ‘Al-Hekmah’ is used in the Quran in connection with prophets and messengers who lived before the time of Muhammad. Obviously before Muhammad lived his Sunna did not exist. Thus to say that ‘Al-Hekmah’ means Sunna’t Muhammad is incorrect. Consider the following verses:

a- The following are God’s words to Jesus:

"And I taught you the ‘Ketab’ (Scripture) and ‘Al-Hekmah’(wisdom)." 5:110

Clearly the word ‘Al-Hekmah’ here does not mean the Sunna of Muhammad.

b- The following were the words of Abraham as he implored his Lord :

"Our Lord, and send for them a messenger from among them to recite to them your ‘Ayat’ and teach them the ‘Ketab’ (Scripture) and ‘Al-Hekmah’ (wisdom)." 2:129
Again the word ‘Al-Hekmah’ here could not mean anything but wisdom. Abraham had no knowledge of the ‘Sunna’ of Muhammad.

FOUR :

A further evidence that the word ‘Al-Hekmah’ as used in the Quran means wisdom and not Sunna is found in the following verse:

"He bestows ‘Al-Hekmah’ upon whoever He pleases, and whoever attains ‘Al-Hekmah’ has indeed attained a great blessing." 2:269

The words "whoever He pleases" in this verse indicate that God bestows ‘Al-Hekmah’ upon any of the believers and not just His messengers. If we assume that ‘Al-Hekmah’ means the Sunna we would have to believe that any ordinary believer may also have his own personal Sunna that has to be followed by other believers! This of course is not the case. The verse would instead make full sense if we think of ‘Al-Hekmah’ in its proper meaning as wisdom.

FIVE :

In Sura 17, we are given a clear demonstration of the word ‘Al-Hekmah’ as being the ability to differentiate between right and wrong and the wisdom to choose what is right. If we read the verses from 22 to 39, we find God commanding us not to worship except Him, to honor our parents, to give due alms to our relatives, the needy, the poor, and the traveling alien but without being extravagant or stingy, not to kill our children for fear of poverty, not to commit adultery, nor to abuse the orphan’s money, to trade equitably and fairly, to verify everything before following it blindly and not to act vainly. After such valuable advice God informs us that these virtues are indeed what wisdom is all about.
In that sense ‘Al-Hekmah’ is not a book of ‘hadith’ (sayings) of one single person but instead a blessing that God may bestow on any of His servants.

SIX :

Perhaps the simplest and most convincing reason for discarding the corrupted meaning of ‘Al-Hekmah’ so as to mean the Sunna, is the fact that God is neither vague nor fond of providing us with puzzles. God asserts that the Quran is straightforward, it contains no crookedness:

"An Arabic Quran, without any crookedness, that they may take heed." 39:28

Surely, had God willed that we should follow the teachings of the Quran plus the Sunna He would have mentioned the words ‘Sunna’t Muhammad’ explicitly in the Quran. Needless to say, the only Sunna that is mentioned in the Quran is the Sunna of Allah.

"This is the Sunna of God for those of the past, and you will find no alternative for the Sunna of God." 33:62

The Sunna of Allah is to be found in the Quran and previous Scripture.
Moreover if God had revealed to Muhammad an additional Sunna other than the Quran, as the Sunni’s would claim then we would expect God to say ‘We have revealed to you the Ketab and the Sunna’ or words to that effect. Instead the only Revelation endorsed in the Quran is the Quran itself:

"And We have revealed to you the Ketab (the Quran) truthfully." 5:48

Indeed God takes an oath from His prophet of what was revealed to him. The oath contains nothing but the Quran :

"Say, ‘What is the greatest testimony?’ Say, ‘God is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed you bear witness that there are other gods beside God.’ Say, ‘I do not testify as you do; but surely He is one God, and I disown your idolatry." 6:19

Finally God commands the prophet to rule and arbitrate between the people with Quran and nothing but the Quran :
"We have sent down to you this Ketab, truthfully, in order to arbitrate between the people." 4:105


SEVEN :

Finally, the word ‘Al-Hikmah’ in any Arabic dictionary means WISDOM. To leave the literal and direct meaning and accept a manipulated meaning is to reject the truth of the Quran.


In case you are still not convinced:

Lets analyze further. The word (Hekmah) ( wisdom in English,) has been used in 19 verses in the Quran for a total of 20 times (mentioned twice in 2:269) .

(1) In 3:81, God is telling us that all the Prophets are given the book and Hekmah (Wisdom). All these Prophets did not give the hadiths and sunna of Muhammed.

(2) In 3:48 God is using the same term He used for Muhammed, telling us that he gave Jesus, the book and Hekmah (wisdom). This was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.

(3) In 2:251, God is telling us that he gave the Hekmah (Wisdom) to David, it is not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.

(4) In 4:54, God is telling us He gave Abraham's family the scripture and Hekmah (wisdom). This was not muhammed's hadiths and sunna.

(5) In 16:125, God calls on the believers to use wisdom in inviting people to the path of God. Remember that God told us already that we should remind with the QURAN those who revernce His warnings. It is the Quran full of hekmah (wisdom)

(6) In 31:12, God is telling us that He gave Luqman the Hekmah (wisdom), this was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.

(7) In 43:63 Jesus is telling his people that he brought them the Hekmah (wisdom). This was not Muhammed's hadiths and sunna.

( The Quran is described as the book of hekmah (wisdom) by God Almighty. See 3:58, 10:1, 31:2, 36:3, 43:4, ...

(9) In 17:39 God Almighty, the author of the Quran Himself explains what the word hekmah (wisdom) means, so no one can claim any thing different.

"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearings, the eyesight, and the brain and you are responsible for using them. You shall not walk proudly on earth-you cannot bore through the earth, nor can you be as tall as the mountains. All bad behavior is condemned by your Lord. THIS IS SOME OF THE WISDOM inspired to you by your Lord. You shall not set up another god beside God, lest you end up in Gehena, blamed and defeated. " 17:36-39

Here, God is telling us that the wisdom is what is included in the Quran. It is the wisdom that comes from Him not from other men.
Some people question the wisdom of God why did He choose to mention the book and the Hekmah if both are the same. First questioning the wisdom of God is equal to disbelief. Second, if you are to understand the Quran you would know what God means by the word Hekma, it is well explained in 17:39. It is a common practice in the Arabic language to emphasize part of the whole by mentioning that part after the whole.
For example if you give some one a book that you want him to read and want to get his attention to chapter 7 for example, you would say read this book and chapter 7. This does not mean Chapter 7 is different than the book but you want to emphasize that particular part. You want him to read the book and pay special attention to chapter 7.

In 2:238, God is telling the believers,

"You shall observe the Contact Prayers, and the middle prayer and devote yourself totally to God."

In this verse God wants to emphasize the middle prayer. The middle prayer is not something different from the rest of the prayers. And so is the word hekmah (Wisdom) is a part of, and not a separate part, of the Quran. God is emphasizing the Hekmah (wisdom) included in his books. That is what 17:39 is explaining.

If you look at R. Khalifa's translation of 2:238, you will find that he put this explanation in his translation. The translation of the Arabic above is almost the exact like the Arabic text.

Khalifa's translation is "You shall consistently observe the Contact prayers, especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally to God."

For an English speaking person who is reading the literal translation above, he may think that the middle prayer is different than the rest of the prayers. Khalifa's translation above makes it easy to reach the meaning put in the Arabic text without over exerting the possibilities.
In brief the word Hekmah, in 2:129 and others do NOT refer to the hadiths and sunna of Muhammed, it is the wisdom included in the Quran. When God ordered the Prophet's wives to mention what is recited in their homes of the book and wisdom (33:34), He means to emphasize the need to mentions the wisdom , that is explained in 17:39. It means to mention the Quran and especially the wisdom coming in the Quran.

ADDRESSING YOUR CONCERNS:

>>>my choice of terminology strangely differs from traditional muslims right? It is expected to be so. Truth is always different. While you use the word ALLAH even when addressing eglish speaking audience, which automatically creates the illusion of a god other than that they know of; i ,however, use the word GOD when discussing with english speakers and ALLAH when addressing arabic speaker,because Allah is simply God in arabic. You use the word muslim to describe yourself, i use the word “SUBMITTER” which immediately rings a bell to an english speaker. So, it reallly depends on the circumstance i find myself- if in french(GOD = Dieu) etc.

>>>passiontate appeal u said? LOL. Without Quranic backing right? Well re-read my post again, then restate what you mean.

>>>if i am not grounded in that which i profess abi? Double LOL.

>>>why should the seeing follow the blind u said?? Well, if the seeing consistencly fails to see a ditch right in front of him which he always falls into, while the “BLIND” can even if using his guiding staff- perhaps, the blind should be given the benefit of doubt. Of what use is the Eye anyway, if it refuses to see what is clearly placed before it? 7:179

>>>In your first post, you mentioned: “obey God and the messenger”, “whatsoever the messenger gives you take it....”, “the messenger is the best example” etc.

If you still believe those are any proof on which you hinge your acceptance of hadith/sunnah. Then my good friend, initiate a new thread make i talk more.

The Quran Must Be Translated:

[26:198] If we revealed this to people who do not know Arabic.
[26:199] And had him recite it (in Arabic), they could not possibly believe in it.
[26:200] We thus render it (like a foreign language) in the hearts of the guilty.

In other words, a professor of the Arabic language who does not trust God’s judgment in the Quran, is denied acces to uderstanding it.(26:200, 17:45, 18:57 etc)

PEACE!!!

@Logoshia

apologies. Gotta go. Got some coding work to do. Sai gobe. My finger hurt. Will end our little discourse tomrw. God willing

@ Biger boy- peace

please note: i am not here to promote myself or garnish my Ego. God sees my heart, i do wat i do for the concern i have for my fellow men folk. I do belive we all here out of good intentions; i hope.
I also believe u are striving to make it to God's kingdom as much as i am. Do u really want to support the prophet muhammad? If so, then follow the words that u are certain(100%) came out of his mouth-Quran. And not the satanic innovations called hadith & sunnah. U people realize that the hadith is largely the reason the immage islam is destroyed. because of the hadiths, the prophet is seen as a tyrant, perverted womanizer,murdrer, rapist ,paedophile etc etc. Yet u ppl cannot comprehend. I bet non of u have truly read the hadiths- pls do. Dnt just pick wat appears to b gud teachings, while disregarding others. The "Yujur veda" have beautiful teachings. The "zend avesta" has gud teachings. "Rig veda" too. The gospel selF. U Don read the psalms?. What truly constitutes true revelation from? Contrast the hadith with quran, maybe u will become seer. If u dnt get me. Pls initiate a thread, Clearly stating wat u wish verify. My fingers dey hurt. Pleasure. Sallam

mkmyers45: Please is Ali's translation different from Pickhtall?

Peace bro. in some instances,yes. Compare 39:45 of Ali's and pickhtall's. That verse is one of the greates quranic criterion for strict monotheism/true belief in God. Even though both are not entirely correct, pickhtall carries d day for that one.

@Logoshia
sorry for dat. Am using my phn. Typed a lengthy text and it simply disappeared. Will complete God willing

@Lagoshia
ok then. Am glad you did not laugh at all. Otherwise, we will have to open a new thread just for that.lol
i will also give u a reply, sensing your honesty.
1)you have chosen to confound the clear message in verse 17:46 with grotesque misrepresentation of it. This is just one verse we discussing, i have hundreds- but this one verse sends out a clear message: that God is to be advocated in the "quran alone".
2)Since u have chosen to apply the so called "asbab nuzl"(reason for revelation), i will

@lagoshia
this is my translation:
[17:46]we place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. *And when you preach your lord,using the Quran alone*, they run away in aversion.

this is the arabic transliteration of the asterisk part: "wa iza zakarta rabbaka *fil Qur'ani wah'dahu* walaw alaa adbaarihim nufura"

now observe the new asterik i have put in the transliteration. Can u see the difference In translation.
Without even explaining, u should be able to observe the glaring disparity with mine and yours. Who is correct? Thank God for the arabic text. The various tranlators of the quran deliberately distorted several verses of the quran, by false rendition in translation. They had spotted the imminent contradiction between the current islamic practices/belief and what the quran advocates, hence the need for mistranslation. Please mr lagoshia, tell me, in your own words what the asteriked text imply. Be sincere. GOD teaches that:
[56:79] None can grasp it EXEPT THE SINCERE.

@.....
ok. I swear by God. Are u happy now?

@lagoshia
thanks in all sincerity.
u have given ur translation of 17:36. I am uncertain as to whose translation that is. However, i know it's not Ali or Pickhtall cos i have them both. Now, i need tbaba to give me his own translation.
if i may ask, lagoshia- do u know arabic? I want to demonstrate something to both of u,hence my asking.

@tbaba.

oh my! It appears u've already made up ur mind. That's never good for any healthy discussion. Quranist/submitter right? Have u ever come in contact or related with any "submitter(muslim in arabic)"?. If not, i will be the first. The stage is set, we shall both put our understanding of quran to test by discussing the most basic and fundamental quranic concepts. Game?
PS: please uderstand that my intentions are sincere.

@Lagoshia - sallam

i understand how u feel about the hadith and sunnah. Rejecting them will create a severe dent on todays islam Right?. But the question still remains; on what basis or authority should anything be accepted as being inspired by God? All the muslims acknowledge that the quran is God's word right? What if i present to u quranic verses which discouraged acceptance of anything outside the quran as a source of religious teaching. Will u still believe the hadith was ever authirized by the prophet? I will give just one verse this will be sufficient. But before then, i will like to affirm the failure of most people to really grasp what a "God" really means. For if they really understood the weight the "God" connotation carries, they wouldn't say waht they say about God. If muhammad were to come back today,he himself will reject the hadith fabrications(25:30-31), For he himself feared the retribution he will incur if he deviated from quran(10:15).

the verse: please, i want u or tbaba to give me the best translation to the best of your knowledge of the following verse: 17:46 . When u have, then we will go further, God willing.

@Mazaje. Peace.

sir, i will foremost want to say that your erudition is unquestionable and i believe u are doing great justice to yourself and ur maker by discarding illogical ideologies. I know u are an atheist, and what u demand is proof. Yes! We all should demand clear proof before accepting anything from fellow fallible humans as ourselves. In fact, the Quran(17:36) states than anyone who accepts any information without clear proof, would have done an injustice to the greatest tool(brain) that we have. In other words, even the quran should not be accepted as God's word without a clear evidence.

mr mazaje, u have consistently clamored for an emperical evidence about God right? I swear by all that u can see and cannot see, i have such an evidence. Emperical, irrefutable and it's physical. The evidence resides in the quran. But u have to wiggle your way past all the foolishness you know as "islam".
mr mazaje, i know u cannot claim to be infallible,hence; i will safely assume u have not all the informations regarding religion as yet. I will provide the proof- but do this one thing if i may beg:

visit: www.miracleof19.org, www.submission.org, www.masjidtucson.org.

all u need to know about the truth that muhammd preached, which is only detailed in the quran u will find there. Take your time. I will use what u are able to gather from there to evaluate your sincerity as regard questing for truth. Peace