Lets keep it simple instead of trying to beat each other with words and arguments.

leyla:

The Torah, Bible and the Quran are all books of God. The one God who is referred to on this forum, please do not be confused as there is only one God.

The message should be that we should learn to love thy neighbour, accept differences, celebrate diversity and practise tolerance.

Lets keep it simple instead of trying to beat each other with words and arguments.

leyla:

The Torah, Bible and the Quran are all books of God. The one God who is referred to on this forum, please do not be confused as there is only one God.

leyla:

In answer to the last post.

The same God has not given different messages -no. In fact (it is my opinion) that the message of God in many many cases has been misinterpreted to meet man's own need and requirement.

[b]Religion is man made, lets remembers that.[/b]Here is an example:
A Jehova Witness will not allow him/herself to be given a blood transfusion because they believe that God's word in the Bible states that they must not allow a 'foreign substance' to enter their body. They believe blood to be a 'foreign substance'.
Ask the same Jehovah Witness then if they will eat steak 'underdone' cooked with blood in it and then eat it. They will say yes, they will eat it.
But THAT blood from the cow is entering your body, how can that be allowed in your religion? I have yet to be answered logically.
Here is a prime example of misinterpretation.

This is a huge subject, religion causes wars, hatred and killing-how can we talk of religion as God,s true word? Surely this is not what God expects of us?
I believe we each need to find our own truth, make sense of it and try to live by it.
Religion is supposed to offer us guidance on how to lead a good life.

In respond to another statement from the last post-there can never be a messanger described as a 'mere' messanger.
A messanger is someone who delivers a message and God's word is the most precious of messages than can be delivered.
Unfortunately, it seems to be like a game of 'chinese whispers', where along the years the message is misheard so much until becomes a message quite different fro the original one!

leyla:

The same God has not given different messages -no. In fact (it is my opinion) that the message of God in many many cases has been misinterpreted to meet man's own need and requirement.

leyla:

Religion is man made, lets remembers that.
Here is an example:
A Jehova Witness will not allow him/herself to be given a blood transfusion because they believe that God's word in the Bible states that they must not allow a 'foreign substance' to enter their body. They believe blood to be a 'foreign substance'.
Ask the same Jehovah Witness then if they will eat steak 'underdone' cooked with blood in it and then eat it. They will say yes, they will eat it.
But THAT blood from the cow is entering your body, how can that be allowed in your religion? I have yet to be answered logically.
Here is a prime example of misinterpretation.

leyla:

This is a huge subject, religion causes wars, hatred and killing-how can we talk of religion as God,s true word? Surely this is not what God expects of us?

leyla:

In respond to another statement from the last post-there can never be a messanger described as a 'mere' messanger.
A messanger is someone who delivers a message and God's word is the most precious of messages than can be delivered.
Unfortunately, it seems to be like a game of 'chinese whispers', where along the years the message is misheard so much until becomes a message quite different fro the original one!

PTH:

In certain ways yes. . . but the fundamental message of the bible remains clear - it points to one singular event, the death on the cross and the subsequent resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Olabowale's response: Only if it happens it could have been understood. The Jews meant a death on the Cross to be accusation of the soul. It would have been a thing shameful for a Prophet/Messenger of God to suffer such a terrible and humiliating end.

Islam flatly denies this.
Olabowale's response: The denial of it by Islam is the truth of the matter. A means of putting to shame of the claim of the evildoers of the Children of Israel, who were bent on cursing the soul of Jesus son of Mary. Aforetimes, they had killed many prophets. They had most recently beheaded John son of Zachariah. Islam is the saving grace for both the Jews who the Christians will some day want to have a go at for 'killing' their 'Lord,' and the Christians by it pointing out that the soul of jesus son of Mary is not accursed, because God saved him from dying on the cross!

There have been several copies of the books of the bible found at various places and at different time periods . . . NOT ONE of those books has been found to be even subtly different from the bible we carry around. The idea that the message of God has been "misinterpreted" was mohammed's way of forcing islam down the throats of the weak minded who could not do any form of independent research of their own.
Olabowale's response: I bet you never heard of the RSV printed in 1952, which completely omitted many verses, including John 3:16. I bet you never saw a Roman catholic Bible, which has more books than the Protestant's. I bet you have been fed a load of , ! The question is this to you, in over 2000 years, which is the real Bible? please show it to me? I bet all the Yorubas who have accepted Islam in so many generations are weak. Then the igbo people are now becoming weak, since they are now accepting islam. We already know your opinion of the Hausas, so there is no point going there! You are so wise that you could conduct an independent research, whereby you may contradict what God to His prophet! thats smart. No wonder it is easy for Paul to pull the wool over the eyes of the Christians, by his going against what Jesus stood for. Afterall, Paul rendered the 10 Commandments almost irrelevant. One God becomes a 3 head God!

You are right. However the problem here is that blood transfusions really have nothing to do with being a christian or not. No where in the bible are we told that blood transfusions are wrong . . .
As Nwando pointed out, christianity is a way of life not a system of archaic rules and regulations. It is more interested in your spiritual health and relationship with God than whether you decide against giving blood to your neighbour.
Olabowale's response: Moses 10 commandments are now archaic and has no bearing more? Has God changed from the God of old, to a new God in a metamorphic sense?

the first step in misunderstanding christianity is to assume it is a religion. It is not.
What God expects of us as christians is boldly written in our scriptures, we are to love our enemies and do good to those who despitefully use us. . .
Olabowale's response: Since Christianity is not a religion, I see why Jesus son of Mary was not the founder. But will Jesus recognise whatever Christianity is?

when people make the above statement in highlights, it is more often that not a sly way of repeating the tired old mantra that the bible is corrupt. Muhammad never wrote down the quran, rather it was passed down by oral tradition. Even the hadith makes us understand that at some point mohammed himself forgot some revelations and had to be reminded . . . besides many of his trusted lieutenants perished in battle thus losing a critical part of the "revelations" they had commited to memory . . .
Olabowale's response: I am not sure if I do not know who this PTH guy is. But I need to let you know that your Bible is corrupt, the OT is corrupt, the Psalm is corrupt and the NT is corrupt! It is true that Muhammad was unlettered. However he had scribes around him. God Almighty provided ample people to facilitate the writing down of all the revelations, as they came to him, in all of the 23 years. More importantly, God increased his memory capability. So were those of people, male and female around him. Infact, every year, during the month of ramadan, Angel Gabreil used to come to Muhammad. Muhammad will recite the complete Qur'an to him, once, and he will recite it back to Muhammad one time, too. (Note that what they recited to each other the first year was smaller than what they recited the second year, because other revelation had came. But whatever was in the Qur'an in any given year was Qur'an!). The fact that Muhammad forgot recitation of the Qur'an at a single occasion, was the means of passing on the legislation, that it was permissable to correct a reciter who makes mistake. It is in the same light that he was made to perform a salah in a fewer rakah, whereby we learnt how to correct our salah, by making the 2 postrations of forgetfulness. You will be naive or disgenuous to believe that God sent an Angel to a man, aiding him in this messengership and left him for humiliations! In the same way that God did not leave Jesus to be humiliated in the intended process to have his soul cursed, if he was crucified! Your knowledge about islam is so insignificant taht you had thought that the total population of reciters perished just in one go! What happened to Abu Bakr, Umar bin Khattab, Uthman bin Affan, Ali bin Abitalib and many others, including Abdallah bin Mas'ud, the one who corrected Muhammad? They they all died with this group, in one shot, as if the who of Islam just perished? Please PTH, you have no understanding. Its better that you stick to your Bible which will definately lead you to perdition. It is a hatman decree, that those who reject Muhammad will perish in Hellfire. Allah Himself guarantees it.

why then do muslims assume that the quran could not have become distorted with time? Rather they spend so much time vilifying the bible that had been copied faithfully on parchments and handed down from generation to generation.
Olabowale's response: Muslims do not assume, because of wishful thing or baseless opinion, which is what you are presenting here. In the Qur'an itself, Almighty Allah guarantees the purity of Qur'an and the impossibility of it ever been distorted or corrupted. God has set up and maintain the system of safeguarding it. Let me educate you for a moment. Remember, that Muhammad himself was corrected? That is a safeguarding system. No one, from that time onward can be placed in a position of uncorrectable. Angel Gabreil came every year to recite with Muhammad. The last year of Muhammad to be alive, that Ramadan, Gabreil and Muhammad recited to each other the Qur'an two times each! If there was any kincks to be straighten out, that was the time for it. The Muslims used to recite it for prayers, and for all occasions, including in joyous and somber accasions. They even recite it when they are desparsing from a gathering, even as small a party as 2 people meeting at the street corner! During the life of Abu Bakr, the Qur'an was made to a single book, another form of safeguarding it. Yet whatever patchments that were available in individual hands were left in their hands. In the time of Uthman bin Affan, this singularly complete Qur'an, was copied into 4 styles of recitations which were common in Islamic centres. If you know anything about islam, you would have known that Muhammad had supplicated to Allah and Allah granted his supplication, whereby Seven styles of recitaions were possible. So in the lifetime of Muhammad, all the essential ingredients of what Islam Islam was in place. without missing a beat. Surprising that you mentioned that the Bible were in patchments. I thought your brothers and sisters in Christianity poke fun at the Qur'an being written on patchment as it was revealed to Muhammad. Is there anything else you will like to tell us that the Bible has in common with the Qur'an? Am waiting to hear them. lol.

As early as the time of Moses we know that the laws of God were preserved in written form.
Olabowale's response: Apart from the 10 commandment, tell us what else are preserved inwritten form? If this is so, how come you have a revision and edition being conducted in every few generations, the RSV of 1952 somewhat different from that of 1971? Why do you you have major christian event/doctrine being relegated to a mere footnotes in one publication and in the body of the Bible in another? Sir PTH, have you seen a Hibrew or Aramaic Bible before, since none of the Bible Prophets was Greek or Roman or English? Why was it that only 4 apostles gave accounts among the loyal 11? Why is it that Saul/Paul dominated these major companions of Jesus after Paul's supposed enlightenment? You have a lot to answer!

Olabowale's response: Only if it happens it could have been understood. The Jews meant a death on the Cross to be accusation of the soul. It would have been a thing shameful for a Prophet/Messenger of God to suffer such a terrible and humiliating end.

The denial of it by Islam is the truth of the matter.

I bet you never heard of the RSV printed in 1952, which completely omitted many verses, including John 3:16.

I am not sure if I do not know who this PTH guy is. But I need to let you know that your Bible is corrupt, the OT is corrupt, the Psalm is corrupt and the NT is corrupt!

It is a hatman decree, that those who reject Muhammad will perish in Hellfire. Allah Himself guarantees it.

Olabowale, you can't sit there telling us about what you don't know. You constantly leave yourself open to ridicule anytime you try so hard to force christianity into the mould of islam. Perhaps it is a thing of shame for your non-existent "prophets" or those u borrowed from the bible to sufer such humiliating death but the bible tells me - Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Simply because Muhammad said so? Christ's death and resurrection had thousands of witnesses who also penned it down for our edification . . . where are the witnesses to islam's denial?

Either you did not understand my statements or u are dishonestly trying not to. Here is what i initially said . . . There have been several copies of the books of the bible found at various places and at different time periods . . . NOT ONE of those books has been found to be even subtly different from the bible we carry around.

You instantly struggle to bring up the RSV published in 1952. The RSV is simply an individual version of the original scrolls on which the bible was written in earlier times. The dead sea scrolls contain the original books of the bible written thousands of years ago and not just in 1952. They contain John 3:16. . . anybody can wake up tomorrow and publish "David's Revised Bible" and choose to remove the entire book of Genesis. It does not make the original scrolls corrupt!

Olabowale, you can't sit there telling us about what you don't know.

You constantly leave yourself open to ridicule anytime you try so hard to force christianity into the mould of islam. Perhaps it is a thing of shame for your non-existent "prophets" or those u borrowed from the bible to sufer such humiliating death but the bible tells me - Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Simply because Muhammad said so? Christ's death and resurrection had thousands of witnesses who also penned it down for our edification . . . where are the witnesses to islam's denial?

Either you did not understand my statements or u are dishonestly trying not to. Here is what i initially said . . . There have been several copies of the books of the bible found at various places and at different time periods . . . NOT ONE of those books has been found to be even subtly different from the bible we carry around.

You instantly struggle to bring up the RSV published in 1952. The RSV is simply an individual version of the original scrolls on which the bible was written in earlier times. The dead sea scrolls contain the original books of the bible written thousands of years ago and not just in 1952. They contain John 3:16. . . anybody can wake up tomorrow and publish "David's Revised Bible" and choose to remove the entire book of Genesis. It does not make the original scrolls corrupt!

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I am not sure if I do not know who this PTH guy is. But I need to let you know that your Bible is corrupt, the OT is corrupt, the Psalm is corrupt and the NT is corrupt!

Yep we've heard that a million times. . . what's new? Where is the injil and torah all sent down and confirmed? Bring it first before you start crying about a corrupt bible. Where you not the same person reading mohammad into Isaiah 53?

PTH:

another rambling thesis from a man who is clearly roaming around in spiritual darkness.

Where are the witnesses to islam's denial of Christ's death?

Where is the injil and torah allah sent down and confirmed since ours is corrupted?

Did allah not say by a hatman decree that ALL muslims are meant to go down into hell?

Those are three clear questions that deserve an answer. Rather you prefer to dance around them with long sentences.

Islam has its name derived from Salaam, meaning peace

The Torah, Bible and the Quran are all books of God. The one God who is referred to on this forum, please do not be confused as there is only one God.

The message should be that we should learn to love thy neighbour, accept differences, celebrate diversity and practise tolerance.

Lets keep it simple instead of trying to beat each other with words and arguments.

@Olabowale :
Islam does not mean peace. It means submission to the will of the rock god of kabbah (allah)

olabowale:

@dexmond; « #52 on: Yesterday at 11:38:04 AM » Without wasting too much time, Salaam is peace, Silmi is submission as in Quranic verse "Udkul silmi kaafaa" enter way/religion, Islam totally/without restriction (from combined Salaama and Silm, as in Aslama, Aslamtum bi Rabbil Allammin). The way is not Judaism Yahuddi, or Christianity Nasara, but Islam, an Arabic expression denoting a submission that one does willingly without reservation knowing that this is the best and only thing!

Now call us submitter to the will of the rock god of Kabbah, or moon god, neither changes the fact!