Stats: 3,191,740 members, 7,945,315 topics. Date: Tuesday, 10 September 2024 at 02:25 PM |
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. (2093 Views)
Let Us Be Honest- Life Is Both Meaningless And Purposeless / GRACE: Destiny vs Freewill: Brethren, Let Us Break Bread / Let Us Work On A Strategy Fellow Pagans! Let Us Destroy XTIANISM & Save 9JAAAAA (2) (3) (4)
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by Ubenedictus(m): 2:30am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Ihedinobi:i understand ur idea and thanks for d charity in d thread. I would love to see d prophesy where baptism lost it meaning and significance. Peace |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by Nobody: 7:01am On Aug 11, 2012 |
brainpulse: I quite agree with this approach. |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by MrAnony1(m): 7:47am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Ihedinobi: Thank you, Pastor AIO. I'm really glad you joined us. I'll be as honest as possible with the answers you require of me.Been following this thread and enjoying it so far. I have found as I keep reading through that I don't have much to add due to the quality of the thread. One thing I want to point to is the part I have highlighted. Though I quite understand the context in which that statement seats and what you are trying to say, I must point to you that the highlighted is a wrong statement. Water baptism is a symbol quite alright (as it is not the physical water that saves) but to say that the symbol means nothing is to say that there is no salvation really for which the ritual would be pointing to. Remember Jesus Christ Himself commanded us to be baptized. What you should be against is people making water baptism to mean more than it really means i.e. where people go and have a shower without a transformed heart. I hope you get my point. It is almost like saying the communion means nothing, or Jesus dying on the cross means nothing (perhaps He could have still died of a heart attack and still achieved His purpose). While we must be careful not to commit idolatry by ascribing more meaning than intended to bible events, we must also be careful not to commit heresy by writing off the same bible events as meaningless. |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by Nobody: 9:57am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: I'm satisfied with the way in which you put it. Once I said to you that it is in the midst of my brethren that I see the Lord. It is very true. Everything that I'm taught or shown is in part and shadowy until I have shared it with my family and heard what they have to say about it. The Spirit is One and will not conflict Himself. I was baptized a few months before I was born again. It was still part of my wrestle to convince God that I was worthy to be saved. If I could, everytime a person trusts the Lord by the message that I bring, I would baptize them too. However, there is the problem that this thing can be divorced from the spiritual backstory it lends reality to. I don't want to add anything further to what I have said there because what I'm seeing is still not very clear yet. I think that it is in order to consider setting up a new thread to study it. My stand right now is that everyone getting saved should be baptized. |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by MrAnony1(m): 10:21am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Ihedinobi:I agree |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by buzugee(m): 10:30am On Aug 11, 2012 |
all these folks with their church doctrine. walahi talahi too many lost souls ![]() baptism and circumcision is of the spirit not something you do physically. you baptize your spirit by letting the words renew your spirit. ![]() |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by buzugee(m): 10:36am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Ubenedictus: beautiful way to put it, but oga i never reach 'field marshall'.i guess 'Major General' will suffice ![]() |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by PastorAIO: 12:56pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
Ihedinobi: Ubenedictus: wow! Way to go, so becos simbols are removed you think that the simbol of baptism 'water' is no more effective. Now i doubt that that symbols of initiation into a covenant cannot expire and die wen d covenant is still functioning, and baptism only loses its meaning when d spiritual perspective is shaded. Mr_Anony: I'm interested in Iconoclasm. Those periods of history when a society or a cult actively destroys the images and symbols that it has used to articulate it's beliefs. Is it a necessary part of history that we must go through periods of iconoclasm? |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by MrAnony1(m): 3:31pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
Pastor AIO:Hmm I dunno about it being a necessary part of history but I believe that history always has periods of revolution, instances of iconoclasm would fit into such periods of revolution however, I don't have much to say on the issue of destroying icons. Perhaps you have something you want to share with us, I'm willing to give heed but please as much as possible let us not derail the thread too far. |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by PastorAIO: 6:30pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
I fear it would derail the thread. I have tried opening threads to discuss it but no one seemed interested in the discussion. anyway, no biggie. But it might help to consider what Jesus says here: Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved." Matt 9:17 Was Jesus talking about a one time event in history or was he suggesting that the wine was always new and so the wineskins need to always be renewed continually? If symbols (and rituals) carry and convey truths . . . then must they constantly be revised and renewed in order to effectively convey these Truths? Or will yesterday's symbols suffice for all time? (I am assuming that baptism is merely symbolic). |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by Ubenedictus(m): 7:56pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
buzugee: i guess 'Major General' will sufficeno!!! Dear, mister would do just fine, ubenedictus better or ben. I really dislike titles. I prefer to be just me. Peace, commander-in-chief. |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by Ubenedictus(m): 8:17pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
Pastor AIO: I fear it would derail the thread. I have tried opening threads to discuss it but no one seemed interested in the discussion.i havent seen d thread i would love to post my comments. anyway, no biggie.d key to dat passage is reading in d context it start at vers 14 fasting and d presence of Jesus and Jesus was saying that those ritual (fasting) dont apply when he is around it would be like patching to different pieces or d wineskin case. After Jesus left d disciples did fast and no one considered it patching an old cloth with a new one. If symbols (and rituals) carry and convey truths . . . then must they constantly be revised and renewed in order to effectively convey these Truths? Or will yesterday's symbols suffice for all time?well i think those symbols and ritual change when the truth they convey or d covenant they signify change. Till Jesus circumcision remained a symbol of d old covenant, the ritual of d last supper didnt have a time stamp on it. It simply say do this in remembrance of me. (I am assuming that baptism is merely symbolic).i dont think 'merely symbolic' cuts it for me, it is a sign alright but it symbolises grace and God uses it to give grace. That is why d bible says 'baptism now saves us'. Well i sign God uses is not 'merely a symbol' for me, but in a sense u are right it is still a symbol. Peace |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by MrAnony1(m): 8:42pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
Pastor AIO: I fear it would derail the thread. I have tried opening threads to discuss it but no one seemed interested in the discussion.Would you be so kind as to link the thread here? anyway, no biggie.Well, I think what Jesus is pointing at is having a proper understanding of who God is (the wine) is more important than mere tradition (the wineskin). As for constantly renewing the wineskin, Jesus didn't talk about that. What he talked about was that the old traditions have lost the understanding of God. We must be careful not to read too much into the expression and imply what Jesus didn't necessarily imply. Jesus said nothing about constantly reviewing traditions. For me, I believe that as a christian, we should from time to time examine our lives and ensure that we are truly following Christ and not merely going through the motions. Rituals are just rituals, the main point is to ensure that the way we are carrying out the ritual always points to our faith in Christ |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by Nobody: 10:52pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: I spent much of today thinking about this. I seriously thought of starting a thread on it. I have been very concerned about rituals and the value placed on them apart from what they mean to God. I have also been much taken with the meaning of Heb 12:26,27. The pattern, if I may use the word, that I have seen in the Scriptures is usually of God using something that we could relate to to embody some spiritual principle, and then we abuse it and make it something in itself, then God abandons it looking for only that which is in the good of the deeper meaning of that thing. But this is the last I intend to speak of it here on this thread. And I am completely satisfied with the bolded part of your comment, my brother. Until we are taught otherwise of God Himself in the inner man, nothing should be disregarded that Jesus instituted, whether water baptism, communion, or gathering with other believers. And, like you said, to stay rightly related to the Lord in these things and not isolate them from Him. |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by MrAnony1(m): 3:50am On Aug 12, 2012 |
Ihedinobi:I concur. Jesus at the center of it all. It is all about Him. No one else and nothing else matters. |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by Nobody: 6:52am On Aug 12, 2012 |
I hope we can get back to the subject under study now ![]() PS. I'm choosing not to edit out that statement of mine that started the examination of rituals, because I think that later readers of the thread can learn from snares and traps like that and see what follows from falling into them. |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by MrAnony1(m): 8:43am On Aug 12, 2012 |
Ihedinobi: I hope we can get back to the subject under study nowNo need to edit it out. let it be there for our education. For me as for the issue of works, to be honest I am quite ignorant on the matter and part of why I opened the thread was so that I could learn. I consider it a great privilege to be born-again in the first place. It confuses me how God will love a filthy sinner like me and then after loving me so much in a way that I don't even deserve, He still rewards me for work which in truth we are merely vessels and it is Him that is actually doing. He gives me so much more for nothing. That's why I say He is a crazy crazy God. The part I am confused about is how the verse I used in 1 Cor 3 reads and other parables (which you cited) where we are rewarded according to our works i.e. more work, more reward. It bothers me because they seem to paint Christianity as a hierarchy and sort of a competition for power. Perhaps you've heard those that claim they will have more stars on their crown than others or more mansions while some will be houseboy [/i]and [i]gateman [/i]in Heaven. But I know that this power tussle and christian competition isn't encouraged by Christ - remember when the mother of James and John was trying to hustle Heavenly seats for her sons. Also there is the parable of laborers in Matthew 20 where the Master rewards all the laborers equally even though some came early and some came late and the early ones started complaining because they had done more work. The reply the Master gave them paints one of the best pictures of grace for me. The Master said; [i].......Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ Matt 20:15 Here He made it very clear that grace is a gift given as He wills and it is not by our effort. All that matters is that we have received the reward He has promised. God's grace is beyond my understanding. The more I think of it, the more bewildered I get. I still can't get my head around how God can possibly put up with us in all our iniquity. The fact that He then goes on to bless us for work that we didn't do - that actually the Holy Spirit has been doing in us and through us - helps to crank up my confusion a few notches. God's love is just Crazy Crazy and even more CRAZZZZZZZZY!!! Now this brings me to the same question Pastor AIO asked. "What is the Loss that such a man suffers?" remember that the work for which he was going to be rewarded sef is not even really his work in the first place but God's work. I have tried reading 1Corinthians 3 over and over again and I still don't get it. I know you answered that it is a loss of reward, but my point is that you can't lose what you never had in the first place, we don't deserve the reward, we don't even deserve the right to work not to talk of the reward. Perhaps the topic of this thread should have been GRACE: Why Not Work? (my musings) but then the question still stares at me. What is the loss such a man suffers? I am hoping that as we study the scripture, perhaps God willing it will be revealed to us. |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by Ubenedictus(m): 10:18pm On Aug 12, 2012 |
U may want to read this book, i havent read it personally but those who have say it is a classic when explaining faith and works. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0809104067/ref=redir_mdp_mobile Mr_Anony:God works in and thru us thru d action of d holyspirit, we may call that grace=undeserved divine favour. But even a born again xtian can decide to grieve the holy spirit and go against grace, in essence we may refuse to work with God's grace. Each day, each moment of our lives we must make that decision wether to work in accord with grace or not. For each time when man responds to d prompting of grace he fulfils d divine will for his life and a reward for himself, yet that reward isnt about 'who came first' like d parable u refered to above, it is based on who loved most. Take a look at this explanation. [url]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_csc/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm.[/quote] Peace |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by Nobody: 10:33pm On Aug 14, 2012 |
Mr Anony, we've discussed some of the following together, but I want to express it here again for the benefit of others. Grace. This is God's magnanimity toward us. It is well within God's rights to destroy an erring world and create another. That He doesn't is, in itself, tremendous generosity. That He goes one better and makes a costly move to win the world back to Himself is incredible Grace. There is no possibility of ever paying for that, even had one all of eternity to do so. And the fact that God requires no payment for any of that is just stupefying. The Law was given to prove that man is helpless in his wickedness. He cannot do good. All his good deeds and good words are stained by his selfishness. And God, being perfection Himself, cannot take "almost there". It's either there or it isn't and the Law said that man just couldn't hit the target. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. He took the very root of man's failure and destroyed it in His Cross and offered us a fresh start. Only this time, He would do it all Himself. Our part was to agree and cooperate with Him. Grace is beyond description! The Law still makes its demands, but Jesus answers utterly and completely for us. God Himself fulfills for us all that He demands of us and only pleads with us to accept His offer to be our proxy and our answer to God's Righteous Demands. In return for what? Nothing? Yes and no. We can't pay for it, but if we accept it, we'll become family with Jesus, with God Himself. And the Most High One will find a means of filling creation end to end with Himself, all of His Majesty, His Love, His Grace. Works. As I have said, there is no possibility of earning salvation. Nothing anyone does or says will in any way merit for them God's Mercy. Even the term, Mercy, shows it's unmeritable. It is given according to the Giver's benevolence, not the seeker's earnestness or worthiness. Salvation can only be had if a man believes on the Lord Jesus. However, does this mean that works of righteousness mean nothing? Of course not. Works unto righteousness and works of righteousness are not the same. Because one is born of God, it follows that one will do the works of God. If one is not born of God, however hard he may try he will not do the works of God. So, the works under study per the given Scripture are works of salvation or works that result from salvation. Now, even though salvation is a done deal once a man has been born of God, there is yet the possibility of wasting the potentials of his New Birth. To be born with God's Moral Nature is a huge thing. But a truant in the School of the Spirit can fritter away the incredible gifts and possibilities tied up with that Nature. If one is faithful in seeking to know the Ways of one's Father, to learn Jesus, our Example, one will be found "(grown) up into Him in all things". If one is not, one will not be found so. The degree in which we have known the Lord is the degree in which we'll be reproductions of Him. In other words, we work more and more or less and less the works of the Lord as we either go on in knowing Him or, for whatever reason, fail of doing so. The Reward Yes, it's a very "Crazy" God that will, instead of destroying wicked, recalcitrant people, put on their nature, come down into their conditions, die for them to break the power of Death over them and open for them once again the way to Life and then reward them for walking in that Way. Very crazy God! And I'm not ashamed to say that He's my own God too. But really, why does He do it? Because He is Love. He cannot but be Love. And Love is extravagant, by nature. You doubt it? Wait till you fall in love. Love is a confirmed mugu o (even though Love is Wisdom). What is the nature of the reward in any case? Here is where we see the Wisdom in Love. God's intent in creating man was, and still is, dominion. It was His plan that man would rule over everything He'd made. For this reason, He made man in His Own Image. It is my desire to keep this treatment as short as I can manage so I won't go into the fact of the Son's inheritance and Satan's jealousy of it and his attempt to deprive Him of His seat of government which is the man and the Son's coming to redeem that seat and as a result giving to man what was intended for him from eternity past. But I will point out that the reward is to reign. It is, perhaps, better to refer to it as a consequence. That which is in the nature of Christ, however small or big, is by nature a ruler. So once a man has received the nature of Christ, he has received the full nature of God's King. The Spirit of God is given to him to develop that nature to its fullest. Depending on his cooperation, he can develop the potentials of that nature to the point that he can be part of the firstfruits, that is, that which approximates most completely to the Prototype, Jesus Himself. . . . |
Re: GRACE: Why Works? Let Us Break Bread. by Nobody: 11:05pm On Aug 14, 2012 |
. . .He can also fail of doing so. I mentioned in another thread that we keep our old nature on this side of the Jordan for training reasons. This is the training of which I spoke. We must learn under the Hand of the Spirit to consciously refuse to have or be or do or say anything according to our Adamic nature, but to have and be and do and say everything according to Christ, our new nature. It must be a conscious, an intelligent choice on our part to do so. Why? Because God will not force us to accept His evaluation of Christ. As far as God is concerned, Christ is perfect. He completely accept Christ and is pleased with Him. To Him He has committed all of His Kingdom, all of His creation, because Christ proved trustworthy. If anyone is found in everything, every matter or involvement of his life, to be in Christ, in everything too, he will be found worthy of the same Trust. If anyone is found trustworthy in only this and not that, only that in which he is found trustworthy will he receive that Trust. God will not commit any part of His New Creation to Adam. As long as we're wearing mortality, the Spirit of God works to instruct us in that which is Christ. His lessons are all about willingly and consciously giving up Adam's way and taking up Christ's way. In this way, the salvation that we received when we got born again spreads through the whole of our lives touching everything, our bodily health, approach to relationships with people, our vocation, and everything that we allow the Spirit of God to touch. The more we have our doings and beings in Christ, the more trustworthy we are with God's Creation. That which we refuse to let go to the Lord, the Spirit of the Lord will consume so that it will not continue beyond the Jordan. Adam will utterly perish and only that measure of Christ that our lives represent will have any place in the world to come. All this means that even if all you have is that you're born again, there is a reward for it. However small the measure of Christ, as long as Christ is there, there will be that to which God can entrust His beloved Creation. But His Trust will vary according to the measure of Christ found in the Life. The greater the measure, the greater the trust. Rev 14:1-5 speaks of those who are found most completely in the Image of Christ. Their qualifying characteristic is that "they follow the Lamb wherever He goes" (v 4 NIV). That characteristic is what the Spirit of God works to develop to the fullest in every believer this side of the Jordan. Those who count their lives here worth nothing except as something to trade for more of Christ are those who will not be hindered in keeping after Him. Those who are worried to preserve something here are those who will lose it there. Conclusion I'm sorry that this ran so long. I had hoped I'd keep it much shorter. The summary is, the works that will be rewarded are the works done in and by Christ, that is, done in the nature of Jesus Christ and by the power of God. No other works will be recognized. The fire is the Spirit of God Himself Who tests everything as to how faithful it is to Christ. If it fails ever so slightly, He destroys it. The reward is greater responsibility which corresponds to the earthly responsibility we proved faithful in. May we be found willing and faithful. |
Image Jesus Christ Appears In Redeemed Church [PHOTO] / Please Where Can I Get A Strong Celestial Church In Lagos? / Any African Who Accepts Foreign Religion, Christianity Or Islam Is A Traitor ?
(Go Up)
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 145 |