A little background

“If it wasn’t for their political problems and constant fighting between each other, the Muslims would have been on the moon by the 1400’s” was the statement made by a non-Muslim professor in a 400-level undergraduate class on the history of science.

Looking at the history of the Islamic Civilization, it is incredible to see how much the early muslims acheived within a short period of the advent of Islam. From medical surgeries and lighted streets in Islamic spain to astronomy, mathematics and libraries in baghdad. Few people know that theories of micro-evolution were formed by muslim religious scholars way before darwin and It was never a reason to disbelieve in Allah. The muslim world was hundreds of years ahead of the rest of the world and It took europe hundreds of years to get to the level of Islamic spain and baghdad... The muslims however lost baghdad and Spain to the mongols and the christians respectively.

The rate of advancement and development by the early muslims is yet to be replicated and only the last century of scientific advancement compares to it.

So what was responsible for this growth?

The muslims had spread into new territory and preserved the knowledge of the cities. They were spread across different parts of the world and were able to develop on the ideas that they acquired from these territories. Also, the basis of Islamic education was the Quran, so even when universities were established in the muslim world at that time, the Quran was the center of their education. The Quran inspired this quest for knowledge. No wonder many of the early muslim scientists were religious scholars too...

Up to the late 18th century, the muslims still had the Quran as the center of their education and made amazing strides... The madrasas were centers of learning...

What went wrong?

Constant in-fighting- This ranks as number 1 for me, I remember getting mixed feeling of pride and anger when i watched a documentary of Islamic spain... one of the reasons Spain fell is the fact that muslims were more interested in fighting each other for power rather than being united. They were ready to become allies with an invading army against their own brothers...

The abandonment of our scientific traditions: By the early 19th century, the ottoman empire of the muslims was having economic problems. As a result, instead of a selective application of science from europe to satisfy the need of its territory as it used to be, it became dependent.... The ottomans used to see themselves as superior to the europeans but the need to maintain political, military and economic strength saw them become dependent on european nations and an inferiority complex set-in... They began to think that science and development could only come from looking the western way, they began to even abandon islamic law... This led to their eventual fall, when the colonialists came calling... At this time, the religious scholars were still the most important people in muslim societies...

When we began to abandon the Quranic values and base to our education, we started lagging behind... but it was about to get worse:

Colonisation

Anyone that studies the algerian battle against the french colonizers would be amazed at the lengths they went to become independent.. Muslim scholars were massacred across the muslim world in battles against the colonizers. This led to an almost simultaneous movement by muslim scholars across the muslim world... Muslim scholars withdrew from society and went into seclusion.

The aim was to preserve Islamic knowledge, so they refused to learn the language of the colonizers or dress like the colonizers. They maintained the arabic language.... They were isolated from society... This turned out to be a big error in my opinion...

Something changed within the years of colonialism, the muslims had adopted western values of materialism. The muslim scholars could no longer integrate into the society because they were seen as those who belonged in the mosque. They were no longer the most important people in muslim society for probably the first time in Islamic history...

The most dangerous thing left by the colonizers was a mental colonization, the average algerian, tunisian or morocan today dreams of living in france or spain... We began to feel that the white man is better, smarter. This mental state is true of many african countries as well. We abandon our values and adopt the worst of western values.

The muslim scholars were no longer in touch with the needs of their society, the opinions (fatwas) they gave were seen as very distant from the realities of the societies in which they lived. The influx of the western idea of a divide between religious scholarship and 'secular' scholarship became a reality in the muslim world for the first time.

In the last century, there have been many angry movements across the muslim world to bring Islamic rule back to the muslim world. The humiliation of a great civilisation by invading forces has left many angry muslims, this anger has fed extremist groups amongst muslims to commit acts that are not only unislamic but inhuman. There are also many non-violent groups advocating for the the return of an Islamic State.

So is the solution to bring back Islamic rule right now? The answer is quite frankly a big NO. Why? We are simply not ready. The muslim world needs a deep reform before this can successfully happen and the way to do this is to use the prophetic formula.

Islamic Law and reforming the Islamic Society

We will look at this from two angles:

i. Individual
ii. Society

i. Individual: When an individual accepts islam, Islamic law becomes compulsory on him immediately.. So he fasts, prays, zakat, stays away from intoxicants, eats halal food...

So we have the first two steps for the individual as

Step 1: Faith
Step 2: Law

It might take some time for a new Muslim to adjust but it doesn't mean the laws do not apply to him immediately.... The level of compliance with the law depends on the individual conviction and effort.

As time goes, the person begins to adopt the Islamic morality and change habits, he is kind to his neighbours and the needy, he maintains family ties, he avoids financial corruption etc...This leads us to the third step

Step 3: Morality

So the three steps are faith - law - morality

The second area and more important area is that of society

The society:

The steps needed to implement islamic law on a society is slightly different but we must not confuse the two... Before Islamic law can be implemented on a society, two steps must be fulfilled first

Step 1: Faith
Step2 : Morality

Without these two, the law is either a complete failure or a joke.... Throughout the meccan life of the prophet, the morality of his companions were built up and two thirds of the Quran is about faith and morality.

In the 1920s, the united states placed a ban on alchohol. This is an element of Islamic law. It was a complete failure, there was more alcohol produced in the US at that time than at any other time in its history. It failed because the moral values were at odds with the law. Alcohol was not seen as a bad thing by society.

Many muslim countries who claim to be practicing parts of Islamic law, have the worst kinds of financial corruption by the elite, the worst kind of racism and class society, the very worst kinds. Even though they claim to follow Islamic law, they make a mockery of the entire process. Islamic justice system is based on reliable witness testimony, but if a society is morally bankrupt, it is not difficult to get people to tell lies so as to get someone punished.

Therefore, it is my view that muslims have to work towards building accountability and morality within their societies before we can talk about establishing Islamic law on the land...

The Prophet Musa and Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them) were not given the permission to fight until the basis of faith and morality were built. To fulfill the demands of law, you need authority and authority was gained by fighting.

So how do we achieve this?

We need to first reclaim our identity...

1. It has to start with our education. We must bring religious education and acquired education back together again and stop seeing them as separate things... Religious scholars should come together with professionals from different fields and form think-tanks to come up with islamic solutions to modern day problems in line with the Quran and the sunnah. I am absolutely convinced that we can come up with a better way to deal with the economics of the world and eliminate usury, which is in my opinion is a plague in the modern economy and would lead to many more recessions. There is a need to merge Islamic knowledge with acquired knowledge and develop curriculum for Islamic psychologists, sociologists, psychiatrists etc in tertiary institutions.

This way, we will once again merge religious knowledge with what is now called 'secular' knowledge.

Also, Islam can guide thee development of science and lead to a situation where research is done in things that would actually benefit people instead of in things like the Nuclear bomb. It will clean up the incredibly corrupt pharmaceutical sector and the price of drugs would plummet. ( The profits made by these companies are obscene.)

At the same time, we need to develop a better curriculum for primary and secondary education by reintroducing the Quran back into our education. Muslim kids today know very little about the Quran even amongst arabs apart from memorization. We need them to do what they Quran asks us to do, reflect on the message. Every kid should be vast in his Islamic knowledge as well as his knowledge of the sciences and arts. We will once again have professionals who let Islam guide the application of their Knowledge. There is a school like that already in the US that i know of. I think, it will produce incredible people... Unfortunately, we do not have these in many parts of the muslim world..

ii. Corruption in Government - Periodic audits

Most muslim goverments are incredibly corrupt, any plan on properly implementing the Islamic law must be done by first eliminating corruption in government. Fortunately, as muslims we have a model we can build on... During the time of the second Caliph of Islam, Umar (RA) , public officials were made to declare their assets before and after service. Any extra wealth was given back to the state.

Governments are more complicated now but we need to look at ways of dealing in corruption in muslim governments before we can start moving towards a more Islamic society.

iv. Corruption in society

Once the corruption in government is taken care of, Societal corruption will gradually take a dive because government will be doing its job.

If we can handle the problems of faith and morality in our societies, then we can start talking about implementing the Islamic law... If it is done without this, the people will revolt against it and it will fail or like i said earlier, it will just be a joke.

For this to happen, the governments in the muslim world must build programs designed to re-establish the concepts of accountability and morality in muslim countries.

This will form the basis of a future Islamic state, any islamic state formed today will probably collapse in a decade or two and would be impossible to rebuild... The foundations have been lost... We need to regain it.

Assalam Aleikum

^Wa Alaykum Salam, It is good that you have harmonised and presented your thoughts on this matter. I don't agree with all you've written but it is good to see that you have taken time to reflect and present this. May Allah reward you for it.

Ameen...What do you disagree with?

tbaba1234: Ameen...What do you disagree with?

Don't worry about it.

I think overall it is a good article. it essentially captures the problem besetting the Ummah, I think it was clearly silent on the idealogical issues, where people hold different ideas on how the governance should be done. Most importantly it was silent on how this change should come about, that is who is to drive the change or what entity is to spur the change? It can't be the same Government nor the weary scholars, and the people is actually a collection of disparate interest. so how are we going to change people psyche to move towards the Islam, and problem is even some people do things for different reasons, just like what happened in Iran revolution, people could simply use genuine issues as a means for power grab.

In what areas does the Quranic governance of the Ummah, differ from secular values? The world has changed so much, there are numerous cultures that come together and connect, how do islamic ideals deal with that.

And the role of Science, should it be an independent separate field or be subordinated to the Quran? And how are conflicts to be dealt with?

While I agree with some of your post, I believe there are 2 issues that you did not address.


1) Economics
While you addressed the politics and technological side of the Islamic civilization and how it can progress with an Islamic reform, you failed to address the growth of an economy or the importance of a strong economy.

While it is great to establish a proper sharia system adhering to Islam as it was meant to be by the Quran and the prophet, the system can fall like a pack of cards if the economy of the sharia country is not strong. If there is unemployment, it can force the muslims to run to the west for a better life or jobs. If the islamic country is not manufacturing quality goods, the muslims become dependent on quality goods from the west.


The clear question becomes; "how do we provide a strong economy that can compete globally based on the fundamentals of the Quran?". Unfortunately, the best economic system we know is capitalism. Capitalism like any other economic system is flawed but it is the only economic system that can produce enough quality goods to meet a diverse range of consumer needs.

With respects to islam, capitalism is a system based on materialism, interest and importance of money. Capitalism is not perfect but is there any islamic economic system we know of?

-Can we grow an economy without interest? Can a monetary system survive without fluctuation in its value (inflation necessitating interests?)
-Can we create labour without the tools of captialism namely demand and supply?


It is worthy to note that I am yet to find an islamic country that doesnt engage in riba in order to complete with the economies of the West. Should such countries stop the interest they receive from Western countries and face financial problems?





2) African Identity

Your quote on this issue is very interesting.

Tbaba: The most dangerous thing left by the colonizers was a mental colonization, the average algerian, tunisian or morocan today dreams of living in france or spain... We began to feel that the white man is better, smarter. This mental state is true of many african countries as well. We abandon our values and adopt the worst of western values.

A counter argument has been made by non-muslims in the other section. They use the very same argument that you are using. The argument is that Nigerians abandon their own traditional identity to take a foriegn religion (they maintain that islam is an Arab religion). The average Nigerian muslim is ready to go to Mecca on hajj rather than promote tourism in Nigeria which is at a dilapidated state.


I have to really ask myself. What is my true identity? Isnt Islam a foriegn religion, just like christianity to Nigeria?

vedaxcool: I think overall it is a good article. it essentially captures the problem besetting the Ummah, I think it was clearly silent on the idealogical issues, where people hold different ideas on how the governance should be done. Most importantly it was silent on how this change should come about, that is who is to drive the change or what entity is to spur the change? It can't be the same Government nor the weary scholars, and the people is actually a collection of disparate interest. so how are we going to change people psyche to move towards the Islam, and problem is even some people do things for different reasons, just like what happened in Iran revolution, people could simply use genuine issues as a means for power grab.

Unfortunately, the biggest driver for change is the government but it is unlikely right now in many muslim countries. Many are more concerned about staying in power. I think the biggest changes in Islam in the next few years are going to come from muslims in the west particularly in the area of Islamic education... This school is an example of what i am talking about: http://www.furqaanacademy.org/curriculum.html

I am really impressed by the curriculum and had the pleasure of meeting one of the people in charge of the school last year. If ideas like this come to the muslim world, we will see some incredible people and movements come from it, movements that will drive change.

Having said that, the change just needs to come from one government and it has to be a gradual evolution back to our Islamic roots... A timeline of 10-20 years before fully becoming an Islamic state, it doesn't have to be a public declaration. Education like i said is key. The world has changed a lot so we need to get the thinkers in both scholarly circles and professional fields together and provide Islamic alternatives to the worlds problems.

We also have to start thinking along the lines of creating Islamic alternatives to the IMF and the paris club. This is a vital, vital step. Many countries in trouble like spain and greece will be willing to take this alternative to dig themselves out. There will be many poor countries that will choose this alternative. There are the kinds of things that a well formulated think-tank of scholars and Muslim economists can work on and develop a blue-print on how it will work... What annoys me sometimes is that we have the solutions to the world's problems but we do not seem to believe that we do... Economics is a major factor if we want to break away from the grip that western countries have on the muslim world...

Changing people psyche is easy and the government is best placed to do this. We need them to believe that going the Islamic way is the best route but we have to do it in practical ways. This is done by providing Islamic alternatives to our modern-day problems... We have a religion that has an intellectual basis that will fit well with modern intellectual thought...

I think a movement like this will lead to another golden Islamic age where we produced many incredible muslim scholars who understood the religion as well as how the world works.

Thanks for bringing up the issue of educating the masses. Education is necessary for development.

An educated ummah is necessary if we truly want proper sharia to be established with the rise of the Islam civilisation. However, there is a trend in the western world and other advanced countries to teach atheistic theories in schools- especially in science classes. These theories of the big bang and evolution! I hope this trend does not follow to us!

Kay 17: In what areas does the Quranic governance of the Ummah, differ from secular values? The world has changed so much, there are numerous cultures that come together and connect, how do islamic ideals deal with that.

And the role of Science, should it be an independent separate field or be subordinated to the Quran? And how are conflicts to be dealt with?

The Quran simply gives the guidance, The Quran is a book of signs and guidance not a science book... What Islam does is to guide scientific research to areas that have societal benefits rather than just economic benefits as is prevalent in the world today... Today, research is guided by greed and profit.

Secular values often means straying into every valley, Islam provides limits and guidelines to life. If you read up on Islamic spain, you'd see that one of the reasons, it was so progressive was the fact that the muslims, christians and jews worked together harmoniously and this togetherness paved the way for its advances... It is not any different from what needs to happen today, different cultures can still work together under an Islamic government, where everyone's culture and beliefs are respected.

AbdulSleek: Thanks for bringing up the issue of educating the masses. Education is necessary for development.

An educated ummah is necessary if we truly want proper sharia to be established with the rise of the Islam civilisation. However, there is a trend in the western world and other advanced countries to teach atheistic theories in schools- especially in science classes. These theories of the big bang and evolution! I hope this trend does not follow to us!

There is no problem with studying the theory of evolution or the big ban g, we have to put everthing in its place. Infact, i think muslim have to learn them as well and how it relates to their faith.

Muslims today have taken up the christian mindset of been on the defensive when it comes to the theory of evolution. Our religion is not at odds with science, but we recognise that science has its place. Now, as regards evolution, we know that creatures existed on the earth a long time before the creation of man and we know that Man was created in Jannah before coming down to the earth. The discovery of the fossils of earlier creatures on the earth is a study that muslims should be involved with. I personally think that it builds up the faith.

The only opposition muslims have, to the theory of evolution as it is today is that Man did not evolve from earlier creatures, the Quran is a far more reliable source of information than any theory... Allah already tells us that all creation came from water. We know today that whenever they are looking for life on a planet, they look for water. We should be studying these things not running away from them... We know for sure that micro-evolution takes place but we do not accept it on a macro-scale. Maybe for other creatures but certainly not for Man. Muslim religious scholars had theories of micro-evolution a long time before darwin.

The proofs of the divinity of the Quran are too numerous to count and can be looked at in a host of different ways... Personally, i have blown away just by studying the literary features of this book... Studying nature is not a bad thing, we just have to put it in its place...

What will be the place of human rights, will it be more limited to fit into the Ummah's moral code or the individual's mind is sovereign?

Will Macro evolution be entertained and sponsored? Will Researches into the natural causes of life be funded?

Kay 17: What will be the place of human rights, will it be more limited to fit into the Ummah's moral code or the individual's mind is sovereign?

Will Macro evolution be entertained and sponsored? Will Researches into the natural causes of life be funded?

I am talking of an Islamic state, ofcourse, it is guided by the moral codes... Christians and Jews within the society can set up their own judicial systems to deal with criminals within their communities because they are not bounded by the sharia court...

Did man come from monkeys? No!.. Can we study creatures that have lived on the earth before us? absolutely!! That kind of research should definitely be sponsored... As muslims, we know that Allah is the cause of life on earth and the Quran encourages us to look around us and reflect... Did this all come from nothing?

Note that most societies are pluralistic, they have gone beyond Jewish, Christian communities and multicultures. How is this mix to be managed? Would atheists, agnostics, pagans have to live under islamic laws to manage their affairs? And what's the role of free speech? Will free speech be limited to socially correct free speech?

In your Islamic ideak govt, wouldn't defining and selecting fields compatible to islam be censoring and restricting Science. Don't you think its odd for religious sources to pick out which and which is a scientific truth?

What about bioethics as involved in the creation of synthetic life, stem cells,etc..

tbaba1234:

There is no problem with studying the theory of evolution or the big ban g, we have to put everthing in its place. Infact, i think muslim have to learn them as well and how it relates to their faith.

Muslims today have taken up the christian mindset of been on the defensive when it comes to the theory of evolution. Our religion is not at odds with science, but we recognise that science has its place. Now, as regards evolution, we know that creatures existed on the earth a long time before the creation of man and we know that Man was created in Jannah before coming down to the earth. The discovery of the fossils of earlier creatures on the earth is a study that muslims should be involved with. I personally think that it builds up the faith.

The only opposition muslims have, to the theory of evolution as it is today is that Man did not evolve from earlier creatures, the Quran is a far more reliable source of information than any theory... Allah already tells us that all creation came from water. We know today that whenever they are looking for life on a planet, they look for water. We should be studying these things not running away from them... We know for sure that micro-evolution takes place but we do not accept it on a macro-scale. Maybe for other creatures but certainly not for Man. Muslim religious scholars had theories of micro-evolution a long time before darwin.

The proofs of the divinity of the Quran are too numerous to count and can be looked at in a host of different ways... Personally, i have blown away just by studying the literary features of this book... Studying nature is not a bad thing, we just have to put it in its place...

How can you say that there is no problem in studying evolution when you clearly do not accept that human being evolved from other animals?

Do you now pick and choose evolution?


This is why I said that teaching evolution is a trend thatwould be difficult in islamic communities.

Furthermore, I can not help but notice that you ignored my first comment on this thread that had serious and useful questions.


From my time here on his forum, I have learnt that some muslims here just say things or give advice on things that they do not fully understand. It is either that they blindly repeat what they are told by their imams or cleric or that they have half baked knowledge on the topic. Imagine someone who has no idea about the basics of economics giving me advice on riba!


You talk about reforming the islamic society and growing islamic countries towards a golden age where we are contributing to science and development of mankind yet you offer no sound economic solutions to the problems many islamic countries face. Your ideas on education are half baked and you offer no sound advice on how these countries can create a more sensible relationship with the west. you onl barely scratched the surface about economics after I made my first comment on economics.



Seriously, you post links to schools that teach memorization of the Quran and an islamic identity to students as if that qualifies as education. Yes the Quran is important to learn but there is huge knowledge outside the Quran. Take languages for example, Western children get exposed to many languages and many language courses at a young age. They chose langguages that they are comfortable with at a later age and learn them. This makes them global students as they can travel to foreign countries where these foreign languages aren used and learn from the foreign countries. It will shock you how little is translated from other languages such as Spanish, Dutch, Latin, Japanese, Chinese etc into Arabic. What are our children in the Arab world learning? Only French and English?
We need schools that have curriculum that creates world class students.


Going back to the issue of economics, what is the solution to our riba dependent muslim countries? This is something that I am researching into. I have noticed that you and some muslims bury their head in the sand like ostriches when it comes to problems like these. You want change but you dont want to tackle the hard issues! I am yet to find one islamic country that does not engage in riba with western countries. The question remains how do when get away from under the foot of western domination? I might not be able to give full solutions to this riba issue but the clear thing to do is to get governments of these islamic countries to focus on new sectors like the technology sector by investing in education in science/technology. Too many countries are oil and finance industry dependent. Technology is the way forward. Listening to Obama give a speech on the importance of dominating through technological knowledge and innovation inspired me. Investing in the technology sector can provide education and jobs for the local people/citizens.


I dont want to write too much because I have so many ideas. However, it is good to dream of a better future but the main thing is to be practical about ones dreams. You want a better islamic civilization then be ready to address the challenges, even the difficult ones. Or else, you'll die as an idealist.

I did not ignore your first post; just a little too busy/lazy to give a detailed response...

AbdulSleek: While I agree with some of your post, I believe there are 2 issues that you did not address.


1) Economics
While you addressed the politics and technological side of the Islamic civilization and how it can progress with an Islamic reform, you failed to address the growth of an economy or the importance of a strong economy.

While it is great to establish a proper sharia system adhering to Islam as it was meant to be by the Quran and the prophet, the system can fall like a pack of cards if the economy of the sharia country is not strong. If there is unemployment, it can force the muslims to run to the west for a better life or jobs. If the islamic country is not manufacturing quality goods, the muslims become dependent on quality goods from the west.


The clear question becomes; "how do we provide a strong economy that can compete globally based on the fundamentals of the Quran?". Unfortunately, the best economic system we know is capitalism. Capitalism like any other economic system is flawed but it is the only economic system that can produce enough quality goods to meet a diverse range of consumer needs.

With respects to islam, capitalism is a system based on materialism, interest and importance of money. Capitalism is not perfect but is there any islamic economic system we know of?

-Can we grow an economy without interest? Can a monetary system survive without fluctuation in its value (inflation necessitating interests?)
-Can we create labour without the tools of captialism namely demand and supply?


It is worthy to note that I am yet to find an islamic country that doesnt engage in riba in order to complete with the economies of the West. Should such countries stop the interest they receive from Western countries and face financial problems?

The growth in a capitalist interest-driven economy is an artificial growth that is why there are always a recession after every few years; An economy without riba would not grow exponentially but its growth would be a lot more stable.

To understand this, take a dive into history and look at the inflation rates in America before it dropped the gold standard, there have been a steady rise in inflation.... The table below illusrates it:


Source: http://seekingalpha.com/article/127585-the-gold-standard-and-inflation

In the long run, the gold standard maintained stable prices... Even though it could be volatile in the short run as evidenced by the standard deviation. Also, this is evidenced also by the fact that in the ottoman empire, inflation was kept to a miserly levels for hundreds of years..

The Islamic model would be based on real profits not artificial growth and in the long run is a far more stable model of growth. The problem lies in greed amongst the muslims...

The below explains more:

"The current economic system has to be changed completely and to be replaced, radically and completely, by the Islamic system of economics. If this system was removed and the Islamic system was applied, then it will appear to the people that in the society in which Islam is applied, usury does not appear to be necessary, because the one who needs to borrow, needs that for either living or farming. In regard to the first need, Islam meets it by securing the livelihood for every citizen. As for the second need, Islam meets that by lending to the needy without usury. Ibn Hibban narrated from Ibn Mas’oud that he said that the Messenger of Allah  said: “Any Muslim who lends (to) another Muslim twice, surely it would be counted as one charity.” Lending to the needy is
recommended and borrowing is not disliked, it is rather recommended because the Messenger of Allah  used to borrow. And since borrowing exists, and it is recommended for the borrower and the lender, then it became apparent that usury is one of the most severe harms to economic life. It rather became obvious that it is necessary to eliminate usury and to establish thick barriers between it and the society by legislation and direction in accordance with the system of Islam.

If usury was eliminated then there would be no need for the banks, which exist today. The Bait ul-Mal (treasury fund) will remain the only lender of property without interest after ascertaining the possibility of benefiting from the property. ’Umar ibn al Khattab gave the farmers in Iraq properties from the Bait ul-Mal to (help them) use their land’. The divine law (Hukm Shar’i) states that the farmers are given from the Bait ul- Mal properties which help them to use their land, until the crops are collected. Imam Abu Yusuf said: ‘The needy is given a property as a loan from the Bait ul-Mal which he needs in order to work in his land.’ As the Bait ul-Mal lends to farmers for agriculture, it lends to others like the craftsmen who carry out individual work or things they may need to
maintain themselves. ’Umar gave to the farmers because they were in need to meet their own livelihood; so the rich farmers would not be given anything from the Bait ul-Mal to increase their production. By analogy with farmers, any other people similar to them in need for meeting their own livelihood are provided for. The Messenger of Allah gave a man a rope and an axe to cut wood for gaining his food.

However, avoiding usury is not subject to the existence of the Islamic society, or the existence of the Islamic State, or the existence of the one who lends the property, rather usury is Haram and it must be avoided whether there is an Islamic State or not, and whether there is an Islamic society or not, or there are those who lend property or not." (The Economic system in Islam, Taqiuddin an-Nabhani)

Not only does it provide a platform for steady, sustainable growth, The Islamic economic system provides a system of redistribution of wealth that helps the extremely poor lift themselves out of poverty by becoming wealth creators themselves...

According to the FAO, There is enough food on this planet to feed three planets... Yet we have been provided the solution to this by the Zakat system, we have had the solution to the poverty situation for centuries and it has worked before...

Rewind back to the caliphate of Umar ibn Aziz, The Muslim were so comfortable that there was no one willing to accept sadaqah....

The plague of a capitalist system means the poor will remain poorer because of the greed of a few....

I am sorry the best economic system is NOT capitalism... absolutely not!!

In the US, 99 of the wealth lies in the hands of the top 1%This is as a result of

i. The same guys own the banks who create artificial wealth for themselves by charging you exorbitant interest rates.

ii. Goods are sold at more 400% of the actual cost of production ex: in pharmaceutical industries...

For a country so wealthy , you still have people sleeping on the streets.... A direct result of capitalism...

What does Islam offer?

i. Redistributed income that drives innnovation from the grassroots

ii. A profit driven economy, that ensures that growth is steady and real rather than artificially built

iii. A system that ensures low inflation rates and steady prices..

iv. Buying goods at close to their real value

v. Recurring recessions are nipped in the bud

Now, I would go a little further... Because it seems you do not understand the evil in a usury based economy....

I live in the US at the moment, if i entered a 30-year mortgage for a house in 1960 worth about $100,000... By 1990, I would have paid over $200,000 for the house.... If i decide to sell the house for say $300,000.... Another 3 year mortgage means the next owner pays about $600,000 or so...

The foundation of the house is still the same and even you go through through rennovations... The actual value of the house and the price being paid are worlds apart....

A small ripple in the US mortgage market led to a global meltdown... This is because the wealth created in a riba-based economy is artificial...

Yeah, not read all of that with full attention, forgive me but limited bandwith/space plus mild ADD is how my brain rolls. Like the others say it's nice to know that there are some muslims that at least try to apply reason to their faith (perhaps a futile endeavour considering reason - faith).

As usual, I disagree with quite a lot of what I could glance through. Probably too much to cover in one post.

You insist on mixing religion with studies, on a mandatory basis? If so, I unequivocally disagree. I feel the same way about mixing it with politics or science.

Note, faith based religion is NOT science, it is a subjective affair

So long as you cannot justify your case objectively, your religious beliefs are as relevant to science as santa is. They should not be a consideration, in any form, where science is concerned. It's like me saying I'm going I'm going to build a car and you brought me a cook book and told me to use it. I might be looking for a spanner and you'd bring a spoon and insist I use it. Not to mention the incompatibility of dogma with the scientific method is glaring. The whole point of science is to question and find better, objective truths. Once a scientist finds something that goes against dogma, religious 'truth' is given priority over objective scientific knowledge, that is never science.

With human rights, I might disagree with your beliefs, and you have no evidence to back up your case, but then you force your will on me? That is just egregious. Iirc correctly, mohammed faced a lot of persecution from people who couldn't back up their claims as well, in fact, he went to war with them ostensibly to protect his faith. Yet the same religion now becomes popular and inflicts the same injustice to others? Surely you can see the hypocrisy on display here? Imposing your will unjustifiably on another person is never right. (Random, I might be wrong, but it seems you lament the fact moorish spain was lost, which is natural, but have you considered the fact that when muslims where colonizing spain its original inhabitants probably did the same thing?). If in the classroom you make islamic studies mandatory and ban the others, you are very close to infringing on peoples rights. Not to mention ideas, disciplines etc from other cultures which could be useful (like the spanner, rather than the spoon), might be discarded because the disagree with some unjustifiable dogma.

With regards to the golden age, did it happen in spite of or because of islam. Anyways, even ignoring that, the same islam was used by others to justify the repression of scientific thinking that has led to the malaise in science in islamic systems. Were they unislamic? They might have been (though I'm looking at you true scotsman), but regardless, the fact that islamic doctrine cannot be questioned certainly aids. A dissenting voice? Find a verse/hadith that justifies persecuting the dissenter, apply it rigorously and shut him up, case closed. So islam can be used both for repression and liberation, and many other systems could do that as well. Islam is worse than most of these systems though because of its dogma, based on laws which may have made sense 1400 years ago. Dogma that cannot be questioned.

And with the law in general, secular laws are built around the concept of human rights, humanism, humans. We can objectively verify humans exist yes ? Islamic or religious laws are built around a deity that has never bothered to show up, is unverifiable etc. Which system do you think should be more valid?

In short church and state should NEVER mix.

AbdulSleek:
2) African Identity

Your quote on this issue is very interesting.

A counter argument has been made by non-muslims in the other section. They use the very same argument that you are using. The argument is that Nigerians abandon their own traditional identity to take a foriegn religion (they maintain that islam is an Arab religion). The average Nigerian muslim is ready to go to Mecca on hajj rather than promote tourism in Nigeria which is at a dilapidated state.

I have to really ask myself. What is my true identity? Isnt Islam a foriegn religion, just like christianity to Nigeria?

This argument is based on a false premise that Islam mandates you to forgo your cultural practises... The only element of arabic culture a muslim adopts is the arabic language because the Quran was revealed in Arabic... Even at that, Arabic is at best a second or third language for the vast majority of muslims...

You do not have to have an arabic name, you do not have to wear arabic clothes, you do not have to eat arabic food.... Your yoruba, igbo or hausa name is perfectly fine as long as it does not have a bad meaning or connotation...

So why Arabic?

There are a few components to this question..

i. Revelation given to humanity was not only revealed in arabic, previous prophets came and according to our beliefs, prophets were sent to every single nation and sent in the language of their people.

“And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them […]” (Qur’an 14:4). (translated)

The first thing to note is that the message of the oneness of God, been warned about the afterlife and confirming what you conscience already tells you about been a good human being was given to every nation in all languages.. This is our belief...

Now we are talking about the Quran which we believe is the final revelation. The final revelation was sent to the arab people... This does not make the arabs in anyway superior...

We do say however that God chose a people whose sensitivity to languages and whose appreciation of the finest nuances in language were incredibly high... At the time of the revelation of the Quran, these people didn't have infrastructure or monuments. The only thing, they took pride in was their language. Their highest accomplishments were in language.

This is important to note because the Quran was revealed in very, very precise arabic.. So if this is the final revelation and the means by which all nations and people are to be guided, then its language must be precise and the way to keep precision is to keep precise language..


ii. The Arabic language is very rich and very nuanced, more so than pretty much any other language in history... It has a very complex system of grammar and a very complex system of word formation.. In order to communicate this incredibly rich message in which one statement could mean many, many things and has many lessons embedded in it... This is only really possible in a language like the arabic language..

So its richness, its nuance, its accuracy and its precision are some of the reasons why the arabic language was chosen for the final revelation...

The greatest works of arabic grammatical analysis and literary analysis of the Quran was done by non-arabs and the vast majority of muslims are non-arabs... This is just our history... In other words, it wasn't about arab supremacy but the supremacy of the word itself. This became even more important than nation or nationality.

AbdulSleek: Furthermore, I can not help but notice that you ignored my first comment on this thread that had serious and useful questions.

From my time here on his forum, I have learnt that some muslims here just say things or give advice on things that they do not fully understand. It is either that they blindly repeat what they are told by their imams or cleric or that they have half baked knowledge on the topic. Imagine someone who has no idea about the basics of economics giving me advice on riba!

You talk about reforming the islamic society and growing islamic countries towards a golden age where we are contributing to science and development of mankind yet you offer no sound economic solutions to the problems many islamic countries face. Your ideas on education are half baked and you offer no sound advice on how these countries can create a more sensible relationship with the west. you onl barely scratched the surface about economics after I made my first comment on economics.

Seriously, you post links to schools that teach memorization of the Quran and an islamic identity to students as if that qualifies as education. Yes the Quran is important to learn but there is huge knowledge outside the Quran. Take languages for example, Western children get exposed to many languages and many language courses at a young age. They chose langguages that they are comfortable with at a later age and learn them. This makes them global students as they can travel to foreign countries where these foreign languages aren used and learn from the foreign countries. It will shock you how little is translated from other languages such as Spanish, Dutch, Latin, Japanese, Chinese etc into Arabic. What are our children in the Arab world learning? Only French and English?
We need schools that have curriculum that creates world class students.

I dealt with the economic problem in a little more detail above.. It seems we haven't had any discussions before so you classify me in the category of people with half -baked knowledge repeating imam and cleric advice... Now, as regards the practicality of an economic system based on the Islamic code, i proposed a model is developed by the best muslim economists along with the scholars of Islam. A model that will work in the modern world because capitalism quite frankly has failed the world in many ways.

It is important to note that I did not say, i had all the answers but i did suggest ways of adopting an Islamic economic model for the modern world. These discussion have to be had and the best people to do this are economists alongside scholars.. I also suggested building curricula for various fields where we take what islam has to offer and the best of what secular studies offers and ending up with a uniquely islamic curricula.

Now, i put up the website of the school not only because it offers some of the best Islamic education but also because it offers some of the best 'secular' studies as well.... The aim is to create students who have an Islamic identity but are also good in the sciences and the arts. The school is based in the US by the way and i have an idea of what they are all about. You seem to ignore the fact that there is also a focus of the curriculum of sciences and arts...

This is the model of education, i proposed for muslim countries... Where both revealed education and acquired education are emphasised.

Technological advancement is key for development as well and i am glad you brought that up... Science on his own has no guidance.. Bringing Islam in scientific research means that we engage in research that actually benefits society rather than greed.. I do agree with you that technology advancement is very important... This is why i say, a transition to an Islamic state must take years of planning and would not happen overnight... Building local innovation is definitely a step in the right direction .

Going back to the issue of economics, what is the solution to our riba dependent muslim countries? This is something that I am researching into. I have noticed that you and some muslims bury their head in the sand like ostriches when it comes to problems like these. You want change but you dont want to tackle the hard issues! I am yet to find one islamic country that does not engage in riba with western countries. The question remains how do when get away from under the foot of western domination? I might not be able to give full solutions to this riba issue but the clear thing to do is to get governments of these islamic countries to focus on new sectors like the technology sector by investing in education in science/technology. Too many countries are oil and finance industry dependent. Technology is the way forward. Listening to Obama give a speech on the importance of dominating through technological knowledge and innovation inspired me. Investing in the technology sector can provide education and jobs for the local people/citizens.

I dont want to write too much because I have so many ideas. However, it is good to dream of a better future but the main thing is to be practical about ones dreams. You want a better islamic civilization then be ready to address the challenges, even the difficult ones. Or else, you'll die as an idealist.

bury head like ostriches... chei.. my life!!,

First of all, i am not an idealist, I know that it is not an easy route and i offered practical measures to draw up blue-prints for an economic model for the modern world.

The issue of education has already been addressed, i also suggested a model where kids have a good background in revealed knowledge as well as acquired knowledge... I even gave an example of a school that offers that... People with a background that would drive innovation if the environment is right... You are right that there needs to be investments in technology but it should be driven by the local population with the help of foreign experts

The reasons why many of the middle are under western influence are:

i. Economy
ii. Just staying in power

Most of the world's energy resources are in muslim countries and if we were united, we could be a real force because of that economic clout even without a technology base...The problem lies in the fact that most of the elite are more interested in remaining in power than to build actual cooperation with each other... The muslim governments just do not get along with each other...

That is why any movement of this kind, i feel would either start from the west or from a lone muslim country..

AbdulSleek:

How can you say that there is no problem in studying evolution when you clearly do not accept that human being evolved from other animals?

Do you now pick and choose evolution?


This is why I said that teaching evolution is a trend thatwould be difficult in islamic communities.

We are an intellectual civilisation, We have to show the young ones why we have a superior argument... You prepare them for what they might face in the future....

Young muslim kids when they come to the west face issues in trying to reconcile evolution with Islam because they know very little about Islam or the Quran and they start finding out about this alternate explanation. Many of them end up messed-up..

This is why they should be given a proper Quranic education showing the literary excellence and unparalleled brilliance of the Quran and a class on evolution to understand the theory and take away what is useful from it..

Not only do they become better muslims but they can give dawah to evolutionists...

Sorry for my aggressive tone of my comments. I was under the impression that you ignored my first comment because you didnt want to address the issues raised.


I will address your replies apart from the one about evolution. We seem to agree on that one- we should be sensible in teaching the young ones.

@wiegraf

You insist on going the christian route with Islam... Let me clear a few things

1. In islam, we come to the realization of our beliefs through reason... The case for Islam is simple, by reflecting on the realities around us, we could to the conclusion that the universe itself had a beginning and therefore came into being... As a result, there must have been a cause, reflecting on the characteristics of that cause and the description of God in the Quran. We have a match.

2. We reflect on the Quran and show that as a book is beyond the productive capacity of a man, it is just impossible. I have shown you threads which you refused to read that shows that from just the literary angle and there are many ways we can prove this.

Our beliefs are therefore based on reflection of the universe around us and the inimitability of the Quran text.

These are objective, verifiable reasons to come to belief.

We are an intellectual civilisation... Do not come here with a christian-atheist attitude..

Religion and science has had amazing successes in the muslim world and there are many references to that.... That, it failed in the western world is no reason to transpose their failures to us...

tbaba1234:

We are an intellectual civilisation, We have to show the young ones why we have a superior argument... You prepare them for what they might face in the future....

No offense, I'm not sure what you mean here, but isn't hubris in this statement off the charts?

tbaba1234:
Young muslim kids when they come to the west face issues in trying to reconcile evolution with Islam because they know very little about Islam or the Quran and they start finding out about this alternate explanation. Many of them end up messed-up..

Why do they even go to the west in the first place? Anyways, calling them muslim is well... It's like calling them democrats. They aren't muslims, or any religion. They are too young to make informed choices on these matters, most parents use their authority to indoctrinate them in whatever religion of choice. When I was growing up, certain curricula from some western countries did not allow for say christian religious studies. You had religious studies, not tailored to any one religion. We studied 6 religions for instance. Now provide your child with options, let them mature, then let them make their own decision. At that point the person can now be called a muslim, xtian, atheist, satanist, whatever. Else frankly, the person is just brainwashed. The children are just children.

The alternate information is the one accepted by well over 90% of the scientific community, myriad nobel prize winning scientists (virtually all top level scientists accept it). Yet you would censor that important information because a book, which you admit is not a scientific textbook, is known to have various inaccuracies and was written based on the knowledge available 1400 years ago, says so? Not to mention the books conclusions are overwhelmingly not supported by the scientific community. You are already interfering with the scientific process.

tbaba1234:
This is why they should be given a proper Quranic education showing the literary excellence and unparalleled brilliance of the Quran and a class on evolution to understand the theory and take away what is useful from it..

Not only do they become better muslims but they can give dawah to evolutionists...

I do not need to mention that the bolded is extremely subjective I hope. And why so much focus on ensuring they grow to be muslims?

How would you know if my arguments are subjective when you refuse to even read??

tbaba1234:


The growth in a capitalist interest-driven economy is an artificial growth that is why there are always a recession after every few years; An economy without riba would not grow exponentially but its growth would be a lot more stable.

To understand this, take a dive into history and look at the inflation rates in America before it dropped the gold standard, there have been a steady rise in inflation.... The table below illusrates it:



In the long run, the gold standard maintained stable prices... Even though it could be volatile in the short run as evidenced by the inflation rate. Also, this is evidenced also by the fact that in the ottoman empire, inflation was kept to a miserly levels for hundreds of years..

The Islamic model would be based on real profits not artificial growth and in the long run is a far more stable model of growth. The problem lies in greed amongst the muslims...

You fail to understand that money itself is artificial. Your monthly increase in money (your salary/income) is therefore articial. Money is paper. The value given to paper is not real. It is based on inflation, interest rates and demand/supply calculations which are based on assumptions.

The twenty dollars that you hold is just paper. Should The USA be destroyed in a war, your $20 reverts back to being only paper.

If money, which is at the centre of any economic system is articificial, any economic system will have an artificial growth and not a natural one.

Gold is twice what it was worth some years ago. What is the value of gold? Gold is just a yellow rock, it is quite useless considering othefr rocks that are used in construction. The value of gold is based on so many assumptions as well. Gold, like oil is a finite resource. What happens when most of the world's gold mines get dried up? Hyper-inflation!


Even if you are talking about the gold standard system, it is still a monetary system that relies on the assumptions of demand and supply. Gold standard is quite useless where there is a scarcity of the metals. The Arab world would be at the mercy of China, Russia, USA and Australia.


Your criticism of artificial growth applies to all economic system. It is looking for perfection where perfection doesnt exist.

tbaba1234:
The below explains more:

"The current economic system has to be changed completely and to be replaced, radically and completely, by the Islamic system of economics. If this system was removed and the Islamic system was applied, then it will appear to the people that in the society in which Islam is applied, usury does not appear to be necessary, because the one who needs to borrow, needs that for either living or farming. In regard to the first need, Islam meets it by securing the livelihood for every citizen. As for the second need, Islam meets that by lending to the needy without usury. Ibn Hibban narrated from Ibn Mas’oud that he said that the Messenger of Allah  said: “Any Muslim who lends (to) another Muslim twice, surely it would be counted as one charity.” Lending to the needy is
recommended and borrowing is not disliked, it is rather recommended because the Messenger of Allah  used to borrow. And since borrowing exists, and it is recommended for the borrower and the lender, then it became apparent that usury is one of the most severe harms to economic life. It rather became obvious that it is necessary to eliminate usury and to establish thick barriers between it and the society by legislation and direction in accordance with the system of Islam.

If usury was eliminated then there would be no need for the banks, which exist today. The Bait ul-Mal (treasury fund) will remain the only lender of property without interest after ascertaining the possibility of benefiting from the property. ’Umar ibn al Khattab gave the farmers in Iraq properties from the Bait ul-Mal to (help them) use their land’. The divine law (Hukm Shar’i) states that the farmers are given from the Bait ul- Mal properties which help them to use their land, until the crops are collected. Imam Abu Yusuf said: ‘The needy is given a property as a loan from the Bait ul-Mal which he needs in order to work in his land.’ As the Bait ul-Mal lends to farmers for agriculture, it lends to others like the craftsmen who carry out individual work or things they may need to
maintain themselves. ’Umar gave to the farmers because they were in need to meet their own livelihood; so the rich farmers would not be given anything from the Bait ul-Mal to increase their production. By analogy with farmers, any other people similar to them in need for meeting their own livelihood are provided for. The Messenger of Allah gave a man a rope and an axe to cut wood for gaining his food.

However, avoiding usury is not subject to the existence of the Islamic society, or the existence of the Islamic State, or the existence of the one who lends the property, rather usury is Haram and it must be avoided whether there is an Islamic State or not, and whether there is an Islamic society or not, or there are those who lend property or not." (The Economic system in Islam, Taqiuddin an-Nabhani)

Not only does it provide a platform for steady, sustainable growth, The Islamic economic system provides a system of redistribution of wealth that helps the extremely poor lift themselves out of poverty by becoming wealth creators themselves...

According to the FAO, There is enough food on this planet to feed three planets... Yet we have been provided the solution to this by the Zakat system, we have had the solution to the poverty situation for centuries and it has worked before...

Rewind back to the caliphate of Umar ibn Aziz, The Muslim were so comfortable that there was no one willing to accept sadaqah....

The plague of a capitalist system means the poor will remain poorer because of the greed of a few....

Zakat is welfare.

Welfare does not alleviate poverty. Many muslims live under the delusion that we can end poverty with welfare. While welfare helps the poor, it comes at a cost to the donors. There are more rich than poor in any society and the cost of welfare becomes a burden.

The solution to poverty is both a welfare safety net and JOBS. If every able man had a means of income, there would be very little poverty whci would be finished off by welfare or Zakat.

Your islamic solution will kill borrowing and investments because only few people would loan without profit or interest. Secondly, making money from idle investment is what made may americans rich today. Investments drive an economy. Your islamic solution will only reduce investment for a stavke growth that will still meet arecession with fewer rich people who can survive it!


Labour can be very problematic in capitalism. Labour means production but to much labour means too much production costs. It is in the interest of the capitalist firm to balance out labour rather than provide labour for all.

There is no 100% captialist nation. America would be at 95% captialist. European governments are seeing this problem and have many socialist programs whereby the government seeks to create labour through governmental organisations and investing in certain areas of the economy.

There are private sector and public sector jobs. Some governments devleop a sector of the economy by owning and investing in it (creating public sector jobs)and then, when the sector is growing properly, they get private organisations to invest and particiapte, thereby creating private sector jobs.

tbaba1234:
I am sorry the best economic system is NOT capitalism... absolutely not!!

In the US, 99 of the wealth lies in the hands of the top 1%This is as a result of

i. The same guys own the banks who create artificial wealth for themselves by charging you exorbitant interest rates.

ii. Goods are sold at more 400% of the actual cost of production ex: in pharmaceutical industries...

For a country so wealthy , you still have people sleeping on the streets.... A direct result of capitalism...

What does Islam offer?

i. Redistributed income that drives innnovation from the grassroots

ii. A profit driven economy, that ensures that growth is steady and real rather than artificially built

iii. A system that ensures low inflation rates and steady prices..

iv. Buying goods at close to their real value

v. Recurring recessions are nipped in the bud

The usa is 95% capitalist while many European countries are 50% -90% capitlaist with their socialist poilices to balance out the failures of capitlaism. Capitalism ultimately puts power and resources into big firms and wealthy sucessful entreprenuers. Caopitalism creates a class system of bourgeois and the labourers. While it can provide a better standard of lving for the middle and upper class members of the society, it can create a perpetual cycle of poverty for the underclass.


There exists a difference between "best" and "perfect". You are looking for a perfect economic system which does not exist. The global alcohol industry is over 10 billion dollars and it employs millions of people. Where would that be when sharia is fully implemented? Your islamic systemm will kill innovation. Everybody becomes hesitant to invest in a business due to the fear of it not being shaira compliant. How many islamic banks would invest in a scientific discovering the links between apes and human beings in order to understand evolution? How many islamic banks will invest in stem cell research? Sales of bikinis and tight fitting sportswear gone.

Capitalism is not perfect but it is the best system that we know of. You are looking at America as a perfect example of capitalism but no, look at Central european countries that are a kind of mixed economy with capitalism at the forefront but socialist policies to counter the failures of cpaitlaism.

tbaba1234:
Now, I would go a little further... Because it seems you do not understand the evil in a usury based economy....

I live in the US at the moment, if i entered a 30-year mortgage for a house in 1960 worth about $100,000... By 1990, I would have paid over $200,000 for the house.... If i decide to sell the house for say $300,000.... Another 3 year mortgage means the next owner pays about $600,000 or so...

The foundation of the house is still the same and even you go through through rennovations... The actual value of the house and the price being paid are worlds apart....

A small ripple in the US mortgage market led to a global meltdown... This is because the wealth created in a riba-based economy is artificial...

Going back to your claims about mortagages.

1) You dont have to buy a house with mortgage if you have the money to pay for it in full.

2) There are fixed rate mortgages that you can calculate the total interest in which you will pay over the years.


The problem with mortgage is that banks were selling mortgage packages who were ignorant and couldnt pay for the houses.


There are mortgage packages for different incomes. Your islamic solution is just another way of describing a fixed interest mortgage package.




What is the difference between selling a house at a 100% profit and selling a mortgage with interest that would yeild 100% profit?

tbaba1234:

This argument is based on a false premise that Islam mandates you to forgo your cultural practises... The only element of arabic culture a muslim adopts is the arabic language because the Quran was revealed in Arabic... Even at that, Arabic is at best a second or third language for the vast majority of muslims...

You do not have to have an arabic name, you do not have to wear arabic clothes, you do not have to eat arabic food.... Your yoruba, igbo or hausa name is perfectly fine as long as it does not have a bad meaning or connotation...

So why Arabic?

There are a few components to this question..

i. Revelation given to humanity was not only revealed in arabic, previous prophets came and according to our beliefs, prophets were sent to every single nation and sent in the language of their people.

“And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them […]” (Qur’an 14:4). (translated)

The first thing to note is that the message of the oneness of God, been warned about the afterlife and confirming what you conscience already tells you about been a good human being was given to every nation in all languages.. This is our belief...

Now we are talking about the Quran which we believe is the final revelation. The final revelation was sent to the arab people... This does not make the arabs in anyway superior...

We do say however that God chose a people whose sensitivity to languages and whose appreciation of the finest nuances in language were incredibly high... At the time of the revelation of the Quran, these people didn't have infrastructure or monuments. The only thing, they took pride in was their language. Their highest accomplishments were in language.

This is important to note because the Quran was revealed in very, very precise arabic.. So if this is the final revelation and the means by which all nations and people are to be guided, then its language must be precise and the way to keep precision is to keep precise language..


ii. The Arabic language is very rich and very nuanced, more so than pretty much any other language in history... It has a very complex system of grammar and a very complex system of word formation.. In order to communicate this incredibly rich message in which one statement could mean many, many things and has many lessons embedded in it... This is only really possible in a language like the arabic language..

So its richness, its nuance, its accuracy and its precision are some of the reasons why the arabic language was chosen for the final revelation...

The greatest works of arabic grammatical analysis and literary analysis of the Quran was done by non-arabs and the vast majority of muslims are non-arabs... This is just our history... In other words, it wasn't about arab supremacy but the supremacy of the word itself. This became even more important than nation or nationality.

Lets review the arguments made by non-muslims in the other religion section calling us "Arab slaves".

-The Quran was revealed in Arabic at a time when there were more developed languages. Classic Chinese was already in existence before hundreds of years before classical Arabic. Why Arabic? What Hausa or Yoruba prophet was sent to Nigeria in the local language?

-Hajj? Why are Nigerians going to Hajj when tourism is almost dead in Nigeria? Would it not make sense to have pilgrimage to all islamic states for more unity rather than Saudis deporting Nigerians like unwanted pigs?

-Qibla? Why do muslims face Mecca when praying? Allah does not live in Mecca. Only prophet Muhammad (PBUH) lived in Mecca. We do not pray to the prophet but Allah.

-Why do many muslims insist that one should learn Arabic to fully understand the Quran? Why must the muezzin "shout" ( ) in Arabic? Why not recite in English or spanish etc?


-Isnt Islam a foriegn religion? How did islam come to Nigeria? At the end of the day, Nigeria was a pagan country- that was our true identity and history.

tbaba1234: @wiegraf

You insist on going the christian route with Islam... Let me clear a few things

1. In islam, we come to the realization of our beliefs through reason... The case for Islam is simple, by reflecting on the realities around us, we could to the conclusion that the universe itself had a beginning and therefore was came into being... As a result, there must have been a cause, reflecting on the characteristics of that cause and the description of God in the Quran. We have a match.

With first cause, that is not a notion accepted by the scientific community, mostly for technical reasons. It could be more accurate to say it isn't science yet. This because no satisfactory hypothesis, let alone theories, have been put forth. They all have flaws like untestable, unverifiable, have no evidence, make no testable predictions and/or faulty logic. Now, considering how strange quantum mechanics is, you can see why the need to keep an open mind.
But ok, let us assume there is a self-existant agent (conscious or not) behind first cause, why is it the islamic god? Frankly, following simple logic and occam's razor, allah is easily one of the least likely options. Your conclusions are not scientific, ask any top scientist if they are (ie if you doubt me)

tbaba1234:
2. We reflect on the Quran and show that as a book is beyond the productive capacity of a man, it is just impossible. I have shown you threads which you refused to read that shows that from just the literary angle and there are many ways we can prove this.

Like I asked you before, are you fan of the zodiac? Do you need to study its details before dismissing it?
I think asoiaf could not have possibly been written by a man. Even the length alone is miraculous. Not to mention the prescience, the realism (despite dragons though, and the others, etc) the planning, the use of language, etc etc. I suppose shakespeare would be a meta-god in that regard.
Literary genius, is in no way whatsoever objective evidence.

tbaba1234:
Our beliefs are therefore based on reflection of the universe around us and the inimitability of the Quran text.

These are objective, verifiable reasons to come to belief.

No they aren't, at all. I'm glad you didn't add 'scientific' to the mix.

tbaba1234:
We are an intellectual civilisation... Do not come here with a christian-atheist attitude..

Religion and science has had amazing successes in the muslim world and there are many references to that.... That, it failed in the western world is no reason to transpose their failures to us...

What is an atheist attitude? Oh, is questioning your doctrine not allowed?
Religion and science have also had amazing failure in the islamic world. That is also a fact.

Btw, this might be beginning to sound like a blame the white man thing. We africans do that as well. And there are at most what 12,000,000 jews? And they have something like 30 percent of the nobel prices in the sciences? They also make up maybe 30 percent of the billionaire list in the usa? (not sure of the exact numbers though, would have to look it up). I seem to remember the jews being the victims of persecution for millenia. At some point we black people probably should figure out that if we really do deplore our situation but have failed so miserably to fix it, perhaps we are the problem. Maybe the muslim world should consider that too, ie if they are dissatisfied with their condition. You seem to think there is a problem, but are trying rather hard to place the blame on things other than your beloved.

Double post

tbaba1234: How would you know if my arguments are subjective when you refuse to even read??

Because literature, by its very nature, is a subjective persuit.

AbdulSleek:
You fail to understand that money itself is artificial. Your monthly increase in money (your salary/income) is therefore articial. Money is paper. The value given to paper is not real. It is based on inflation, interest rates and demand/supply calculations which are based on assumptions.

The twenty dollars that you hold is just paper. Should The USA be destroyed in a war, your $20 reverts back to being only paper.

If money, which is at the centre of any economic system is articificial, any economic system will have an artificial growth and not a natural one.

Gold is twice what it was worth some years ago. What is the value of gold? Gold is just a yellow rock, it is quite useless considering other rocks that are used in construction. The value of gold is based on so many assumptions as well. Gold, like oil is a finite resource. What happens when most of the world's gold mines get dried up? Hyper-inflation!

Even if you are talking about the gold standard system, it is still a monetary system that relies on the assumptions of demand and supply. Gold standard is quite useless where there is a scarcity of the metals. The Arab world would be at the mercy of China, Russia, USA and Australia.

Your criticism of artificial growth applies to all economic system. It is looking for perfection where perfection doesnt exist.

Basing the currency on gold produced a much lesser effect on inflation than the current model. Gold does have some value, it is used for jewelry, for making electronics (to prevent corrosion), in computers, gold alloys are used for filling in dentistry, radioactive gold isotopes are used in raditiation to treat cancer.... So it is not just a yellow rock...

When the gold standard was applied throughout the world , it did not experience problems until the superpowers decided to introduce the paper standard alongside the gold standard, the dollar became the new monetary standard...

These are some of the problems and suggested solution from a paper, i am looking at:

1. The concentration of gold in countries whose level of production, their ability to compete in foreign trade and the professionalism of their scientists, experts and industrialists have all increased. This would lead to the flow of gold into these countries either as a price for commodities or as salaries for the workforce i.e. experts, scientists and industrialists. Therefore, most of the existing reserves of gold world-wide would accumulate in these countries, causing an imbalance in the distribution of gold among various countries. This would also lead to countries restricting the transfer of gold for fear of losing their reserves, thus bringing their foreign trade to a grinding halt.

2. Gold could flow into some countries due to the balance of trade being in their favour. However, these countries could prevent this gold from influencing the local market and from causing an increase in the level of prices by flooding the market with a large number of bonds. This could be sufficient to lead to a withdrawal of money equal to the gold they had received, thus such countries end up retaining the gold and preventing it from returning to the country of origin, which would suffer from the use of the gold standard as a result.

3. The widespread use of the gold standard has always been linked to the concept of international specialisation in various areas of production and to international free trade. However, a powerful tendency towardthe protection of industry and agriculture in these countries has emerged, which has led to the introduction of tariff barriers, thus erecting an obstacle in the face of goods exported to these countries and making it difficult for the transferring of gold out of these countries. Therefore, the trade of the country that operates the gold standard would suffer, for if her goods did not reach other countries’ markets at the normal price, she would either be forced to reduce the level of her commodities’ prices further in order to overcome the tariffs and quotas or not export her goods in the first instance, and in both cases, her trade would suffer.

Suggested Solution:

The way to overcome such difficulties would be to adopt a policy of self-sufficiency and to make workers’ salaries performance-related rather than estimated in
relation to the price of the commodities they produce or manufacture, or their standard of living. Also no consideration should be paid to shares and government bonds as commodities owned by individuals, and there should be no over-reliance on exports as a source of developing wealth.

A country should rather aim at generating her wealth within her own boundaries without having to export her goods and services abroad, which would help her do away with trade barriers imposed by other countries. Once a country adopts such a policy, she would have nothing to fear from the gold standard, and instead would reap all its benefits, avoid all its disadvantages and not suffer any setback from it at all. On the contrary, it would be in her interest. So it is inevitable for her to follow the gold and silver standard to the exclusion of all other standards. (The Economic system in Islam, Taqiuddin an-Nabhani)

Hence, self sufficiency looks like the way for such a move to be successful, No over reliance on exports for wealth.... That way, you do not have to worry about the influence of the powers you talk about.

Zakat is welfare.

Welfare does not alleviate poverty. Many muslims live under the delusion that we can end poverty with welfare. While welfare helps the poor, it comes at a cost to the donors. There are more rich than poor in any society and the cost of welfare becomes a burden.

The solution to poverty is both a welfare safety net and JOBS. If every able man had a means of income, there would be very little poverty which would be finished off by welfare or Zakat.

Your islamic solution will kill borrowing and investments because only few people would loan without profit or interest. Secondly, making money from idle investment is what made may americans rich today. Investments drive an economy. Your islamic solution will only reduce investment for a starve growth that will still meet a recession with fewer rich people who can survive it!

Zakat is not a welfare system as much as it is a redistribution system... The aim of the Zakat is to provide a poor person with the capital to start a private venture which will produce wealth... Private jobs drive the economy and create jobs...

Also, the loaner shares from the profit of the venture; The gain for the loaner and loanee is the profit not some preconceived percentage... The growth of the economy would be stable and measurable. Everyone would invest in profitable and innovative ideas... If the idea fails, i only have to pay back the capital, No one loses..... In the current system , a failed investment means a loanee has to pay the capital plus the interest accrued...

To say, a profit driven system would reduce investment is ridiculous to say the least... The US is not 95% capitalist, id say maybe 70% at the most...

The usa is 95% capitalist while many European countries are 50% -90% capitlaist with their socialist poilices to balance out the failures of capitlaism. Capitalism ultimately puts power and resources into big firms and wealthy sucessful entreprenuers. Caopitalism creates a class system of bourgeois and the labourers. While it can provide a better standard of lving for the middle and upper class members of the society, it can create a perpetual cycle of poverty for the underclass.


There exists a difference between "best" and "perfect". You are looking for a perfect economic system which does not exist. The global alcohol industry is over 10 billion dollars and it employs millions of people. Where would that be when sharia is fully implemented? Your islamic systemm will kill innovation. Everybody becomes hesitant to invest in a business due to the fear of it not being shaira compliant. How many islamic banks would invest in a scientific discovering the links between apes and human beings in order to understand evolution? How many islamic banks will invest in stem cell research? Sales of bikinis and tight fitting sportswear gone.

Capitalism is not perfect but it is the best system that we know of. You are looking at America as a perfect example of capitalism but no, look at Central european countries that are a kind of mixed economy with capitalism at the forefront but socialist policies to counter the failures of cpaitlaism.

Stop repeating this nonsense, that the capitalist economy is the best thing... Please!! you say an Islamic system will kill innovation You will do well to read up on a bit of history...

There are a million things one can invest in other than Alchohol and skimpy clothes..... Kill innovation when a person with an idea can get an interest free loan to prosecute his plan whilst having to pay back only the premium + a % of profit.... Where there are no bikinis, there will be hijabs, burkas and niqaabs... There will different alternates... You are building a straw-man argument...

Again , the US is NOT 95% capitalist, If it was, people will die here.... If not for socialist policies like medicad... How many american can afford health care?

We believe in Allah and we keep everything within the limits set... We do not stray into every valley... That is why we are muslims...

Going back to your claims about mortagages.

1) You dont have to buy a house with mortgage if you have the money to pay for it in full.

2) There are fixed rate mortgages that you can calculate the total interest in which you will pay over the years.


The problem with mortgage is that banks were selling mortgage packages who were ignorant and couldnt pay for the houses.


There are mortgage packages for different incomes. Your islamic solution is just another way of describing a fixed interest mortgage package.

What is the difference between selling a house at a 100% profit and selling a mortgage with interest that would yeild 100% profit?

1. How many normal americans can buy a house outright?? Are you kidding me??

2. fixed rates indeed.. lets not even go there... These banks are crooks

An Islamic system would sell the house at closer to the real value than the mortgage system, attempting to sell your house at 100% profit at a go, will get you no buyer because they would probably find a house of similar quality at a much cheaper rate..

Simple economics...

AbdulSleek:
Lets review the arguments made by non-muslims in the other religion section calling us "Arab slaves".

-The Quran was revealed in Arabic at a time when there were more developed languages. Classic Chinese was already in existence before hundreds of years before classical Arabic. Why Arabic? What Hausa or Yoruba prophet was sent to Nigeria in the local language?

-Hajj? Why are Nigerians going to Hajj when tourism is almost dead in Nigeria? Would it not make sense to have pilgrimage to all islamic states for more unity rather than Saudis deporting Nigerians like unwanted pigs?

-Qibla? Why do muslims face Mecca when praying? Allah does not live in Mecca. Only prophet Muhammad (PBUH) lived in Mecca. We do not pray to the prophet but Allah.

-Why do many muslims insist that one should learn Arabic to fully understand the Quran? Why must the muezzin "shout" ( ) in Arabic? Why not recite in English or spanish etc?


-Isnt Islam a foriegn religion? How did islam come to Nigeria? At the end of the day, Nigeria was a pagan country- that was our true identity and history.

First of all, you should be interested in studying why the Quran is so incredible than bothering yourselves with those kinds of threads because i am a bit worried with the kinds of things you venture into..

- Answer already provided above: There is very few languages that compare to the classical Arabic that has survived till this day... The depth of the Quranic discourse and its nuances are kept intact.

- Hajj is once in a life-time... There are many other opportunities to patronise a Nigerian tourist attraction, Besides, It is a pillar of the faith so we are required to do it once we can afford it..

- Because the Quran is only the Quran in Arabic.... The depth of meaning of the Quran is horribly lost in translation... I started a thread where i an taking a journey through the Quran to show some of the things lost in translations: You might want to take a look... maybe you will understand why? https://www.nairaland.com/1007823/journey-through-quran-amazing-quran

- Already answered earlier... The roots of many pagan faiths were originally monotheistic or show traces of montheism... So which is your true roots?