A controversial fertility doctor claimed yesterday to have cloned 14 human embryos and transferred 11 of them into the wombs of four women who had been prepared to give birth to cloned babies.
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fertility-expert-i-can-clone-a-human-being-1672095.html

Now, my own question to the knowlegeable people on the board.

Let us assume that this clone was successful, is the clone going to have the same body/soul/spirit like the original?
And to those that believe in afterlife, will the clone have a soul to start with, and if it does (which i doubt), what will be the fate?

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Its only a matter of time..

mkmyers45: Its only a matter of time..

I believe so too, see this link - i have cloned a human

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A controversial fertility doctor claimed yesterday to have cloned 14 human embryos and transferred 11 of them into the wombs of four women who had been prepared to give birth to cloned babies.
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fertility-expert-i-can-clone-a-human-being-1672095.html

Now, my own question to the knowlegeable people on the board.

Let us assume that this clone was successful, is the clone going to have the same body/soul/spirit like the original?
And to those that believe in afterlife, will the clone have a soul to start with, and if it does (which i doubt), what will be the fate?

i was going to say that life begins when the egg is fertilized and thus even a zygote would have spirit/soul/body, but then i remembered that cloning is somewhat asexual.

in effect, the clones would be an extension/photocopy of the progenitor. kind of like having yourself in 2 or more places at once. would you share the same spirit/soul/body with your clones? i think not.

i think your clones would be like your identical twin(s). each with a seperate spirit/soul/body. (and thus individual fates in the after life).

at least we know the bodies are different. the souls too, based on nurture, perhaps.

as for the spirit ... i have no idea what the Bible says on that ...

thats my opinion!

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None of the embryo transfers led to a viable pregnancy but Dr Zavos said yesterday that this was just the "first chapter" in his ongoing and serious attempts at producing a baby cloned from the skin cells of its "parent".

Thank God

My belief is that:
- A human being is more complex than animals (who posses only a body and spirit)
- However, a human being is made up of body, soul and spirit. The spirit is from God. And as far as i know, with all my collective knowlege,
souls are not created on this earth - they seem to be somewhat created by God - and appear to be passed to the body when normal egg and sperm meet - the natural order (it is for this reason that some people believe in reincarnation) - if you read the bible well you will see places where God claimed to have known someone before birth - this implies that the soul is already in existence before birth.
Because when the fallen angels mated with women, according to the bible (u need a very good research), their offsprings (which some believe are the so-called aliens/UFOs) were said to be soulless.

Based on all these, i somehow feel that even if this clone succeeds - it will be soulless in nature. Without a soul, there will be endless possibilities - but evil is the watch word.

Well, i am only just thinking. . . . .because if human cloning really works, then human beings can remain immortal on this plane - but maybe my real question should be - CAN THE HUMAN SOUL BE CLONED?
2. If the clone is soulless, is it going to be evil like the "soulless ones" - so-called aliens (that are half-human half-you-know-what)

Omo Alata:


Thank God

Really? will you not want to have clones for yourself if these things really work?

Personally i wont, because i believe it will create a monster - because i doubt if they can replicate the spiritual nature of man.

^ i believe that the Bible uses soul/spirit interchangeably, so i suspect the soul you are referring to in your example(s) is actually the spirit (man)
[s]
eg when the Bible says : the soul that sinneth, it shall die ... (this might not be the best example though)
[/s]
the soul i referred to earlier is more of the mind/psyche .... your feelings, if you may

if upon death the body goes to the earth and the spirit goes to heaven, where then does the soul go?

i am forced to think of the soul as a sort of connector between the spirit and body (the silver cord, perhaps?)

upon death, it merges with your spirit? so in essence they are one and the same? but in life, they are distinct entities.

or is it split halfway upon death? ( ... the silver cord being loosed)

i guess your question should be CAN "LIFE FORCE" BE CLONED? and i'ld like to ask where the life force comes from? the blood, the fluid, or the DNA?

that means in essence, as long as you are not creating another human from base elements, life force can be cloned. because the clone posseses the base life force of the progenitor.

#my_theory

Time will tell...Impossible is nothing.

^^^Very good, i love that thinking. Well, i believe the spirit will return back to the Father, and the Soul shall be judged. I believe that our mind exists between our Spirit and our Soul. So man is made up of body, soul and spirit. The soul is the real you - your feelings, your identity, freewill and all that.

Okay, let us leave all these i have just said. Let us even assume that the spirit and soul are one and the same or even merged sef.

So, if i make 10 clones of myself - my spirit will be cloned in 10 places? Then i will be judged like 10 times on the judgement day?

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^^^Very good, i love that thinking. Well, i believe the spirit will return back to the Father, and the Soul shall be judged.

i was hoping that by now, the theologians would have stepped in. [s]i personally believe its the spirit that will be judged sha.[/s]

I believe that our mind exists between our Spirit and our Soul. So man is made up of body, soul and spirit. The soul is the real you - your feelings, your identity, freewill and all that.

[s]
my psychology is a bit rusty, so i wont go into id, ego and superego. hopefully, someone else will ...
[/s]
i'm forced to think that man is essentially a spirit being, first and foremost; forced to live in a physical body. upon death, we resume being spirits. that is our essence. our mind on the other hand, is just like our hard drive, storing our feelings, freewill, etc. (storing our OS, if you will ...) the spirit would then be what? CPU? or OS? hmmmn ... bad analogy perhaps.

luckily, i have a lifeline below:

Okay, let us leave all these i have just said. Let us even assume that the spirit and soul are one and the same or even merged sef.

the more i look at it, the more i believe this to be true. our body is just a vehicle, for our sojourn here on earth. a container for our spirit/soul combo.

So, if i make 10 clones of myself - my spirit will be cloned in 10 places? Then i will be judged like 10 times on the judgement day?

i think the word "clone" is creating the confusion here.

i daresay that in as much as Dolly1 and Dolly2 look alike or are essentially the same (at least genetically), they cannot behave the same way and are therefore not "equals/the same" ie "they have a mind of their own" even though they share the same blueprint.

yes, you can clone yourself into 10 places, but each of the clones will be independent, "with a mind/spirit of their own"

i see cloning as an advanced form of reproduction. once life starts (sexually or asexually), no 2 life forms are essentially the same.

like twins, they may look alike, and like clones may share the same genome, but their "essence" are unique.

were it not so, Dolly1 and Dolly2 would behave in exactly the same way at every time t ...

unfortunately, this seems to contradict the claim below:

i guess your question should be CAN "LIFE FORCE" BE CLONED? and i'ld like to ask where the life force comes from? the blood, the fluid, or the DNA?

that means in essence, as long as you are not creating another human from base elements, life force can be cloned. because the clone posseses the base life force of the progenitor.

it appears the only option i'm left with is to state that it is only the body that can be cloned, in the real sense of cloning.

the mind/soul cannot be "cloned" , because no 2 living things have the same mind/spirit.

it would therefore appear that the "life force" as i described earlier, is not in the DNA (which is what is cloned).

where then is the life force, and how does it come into creation?

going back to your theory:

My belief is that:
- A human being is more complex than animals (who posses only a body and spirit)
- However, a human being is made up of body, soul and spirit. The spirit is from God. And as far as i know, with all my collective knowlege,
souls are not created on this earth - they seem to be somewhat created by God - and appear to be passed to the body when normal egg and Fluid meet - the natural order (it is for this reason that some people believe in reincarnation) - if you read the bible well you will see places where God claimed to have known someone before birth - this implies that the soul is already in existence before birth.
Because when the fallen angels mated with women, according to the bible (u need a very good research), their offsprings (which some believe are the so-called aliens/UFOs) were said to be soulless.

and applying my computer analogy, i see cloning of the mind/spirit as ghosting a hard drive.

upon completion of the process, all drives might contain the same software and configuration, but their state after several months/years of use will depend on the environment they were used in.

in essence, even if you successfully clone yourself into 10, mind/spirt inclusive, each clone is independent of the next and will be judged individually.

this is because though we may have the same template at birth/creation, we all begin life with a clean slate, at time t = 0.

from time t=1 to death, we begin to live our lives independently and are accountable for our actions, good or bad.

so, yes, even if you clone yourself 10 times, each clone will be judged seperately, because they lived different lives.

and no, your spirit will not be cloned 10 times as such. it will serve as a mould/template for 10 copies of you. what those 10 copies do with their lives is independent of what you do with urs, so you face seperate judgments.

^^^^Well, i agree with you to a great extent. I just have a strong feeling that the clones will be like the "nephilims" but not so powerful.
I dont have any proof though. And i doubt if it will be spiritually identical with man. Because the nephilims are different entities entirely despite their human bodies. If an Angel takes the form of man - it is not a man - despite being able to somehow manipulate their DNAs so they could have offsprings with man - they are still not the same.
There is still the mystery of the mysterious "blood group o negative" - that scientists have not been able to solve - some believe it is linked to ETs.
But scientists have found it difficult to clone that blood type, you can research on it, so i dont distract the thread mesef.

Leaving religion out it, because it has no basis in scientific facts, cloning can be defended or reviled based
on how threatened you feel by it.

Are you secured enough in yourself to face the prospect of another you? Are you secured enough in yourself to face
the prospect that your clone might be engineered to be superior to you in many ways? Are you secure enough in your
sex life to accept that sex is no longer needed for reproduction?

I, for one, have no problem with meeting another me, even if it is a new and improved model.

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^^^^Well, i agree with you to a great extent. I just have a strong feeling that the clones will be like the "nephilims" but not so powerful.
I dont have any proof though. And i doubt if it will be spiritually identical with man. Because the nephilims are different entities entirely despite their human bodies. If an Angel takes the form of man - it is not a man - despite being able to somehow manipulate their DNAs so they could have offsprings with man - they are still not the same.
There is still the mystery of the mysterious "blood group o negative" - that scientists have not been able to solve - some believe it is linked to ETs.
But scientists have found it difficult to clone that blood type, you can research on it, so i dont distract the thread mesef.

well, if i remember correctly, even angels will/can be judged and cast into hell, so being a "man" really has nothing to do with one's fate in the afterlife, which i suspect is really the crux of your inquiry : the fate of clones on judgment day.

minute: Leaving religion out it, because it has no basis in scientific facts, cloning can be defended or reviled based
on how threatened you feel by it.

Are you secured enough in yourself to face the prospect of another you? Are you secured enough in yourself to face
the prospect that your clone might be engineered to be superior to you in many ways?

i guess i'm not. i cant imagine another me. it cant really be me, i seriously doubt that. just a photocopy, max!

[s]e fit be like panadol, but e no be panadol, lol ![/s]

Are you secure enough in your
sex life to accept that sex is no longer needed for reproduction?

this sounds like a good deal ...

I, for one, have no problem with meeting another me, even if it is a new and improved model.

lucky u!

I unfortunately can't be cloned or so I presume.
But if I can be cloned, I wil love to examine the clone medically and spiritually by myself to find out how accurate the clone is.
That having been said, I doubt if I wil voluntarily allow anyone to clone me to start with.
What if the clone becomes a therorist? I wil have to start running away from myself?

I remember this film where a bad man was cloned - the clone was trained well and became a good person. But at the end of the day, the clone killed the man + for reasons unknown to the clone.
The police let the clone go and find its own path.

Notice I was using it for the clone and not a He + I refuse to accept a clone as a real human being.

^^^Do you think a genetic clone would have the same fingerprints as the original? If NO, then, I think every other thing about it, physically & spiritually should be independent of it's origin. Heck, It should have its own soul too~! So, why would you be afraid of an independent clone that has everything of it's own?

For me, I'll consider it a full human since it is independent of its origin.

A clone would be like a twin, I guess.
But of course, they would be different personalities. There's not much difference to the test tube baby procedure and what happens during sex. Still the same chemical reactions that produce life.

It would be cool if they could clone already formed embryos, for people who want to have twins, but don't have the genes for it.
Though that would be tough, as most women do not detect pregnancy for about six weeks after conception.

seriallink: ^^^Do you think a genetic clone would have the same fingerprints as the original? If NO, then, I think every other thing about it, physically & spiritually should be independent of it's origin. Heck, It should have its own soul too~! So, why would you be afraid of an independent clone that has everything of it's own?

For me, I'll consider it a full human since it is independent of its origin.

i actually think it will have the same fingerprint and retinal pattern(s). this might be one of the things that differentiate them from twins.

the only thing i think will be different will be their actions (maybe not even reactions), as a result of how their minds get conditioned.

AjanleKoko: A clone would be like a twin, I guess.
But of course, they would be different personalities. There's not much difference to the test tube baby procedure and what happens during sex. Still the same chemical reactions that produce life.

It would be cool if they could clone already formed embryos, for people who want to have twins, but don't have the genes for it.
Though that would be tough, as most women do not detect pregnancy for about six weeks after conception.

i quite agree with you, but i suspect the op doesnt want to wrap his mind around the possibility that "life can be condensed into a tablet".

2 pills, maybe. one from the female, the other from the male. anything short of that, especially an engineered one, is far from being life? i think not.

*dhtml:
I unfortunately can't be cloned or so I presume.
But if I can be cloned, I wil love to examine the clone medically and spiritually by myself to find out how accurate the clone is.
That having been said, I doubt if I wil voluntarily allow anyone to clone me to start with.
What if the clone becomes a terrorist? I will have to start running away from myself?

I remember this film where a bad man was cloned - the clone was trained well and became a good person. But at the end of the day, the clone killed the man + for reasons unknown to the clone.
The police let the clone go and find its own path.

Notice I was using it for the clone and not a He + I refuse to accept a clone as a real human being.

actually, that'd be a good thing. it will enable us catch bad guys faster (eg Catch Me If You Can )

imagine if the US had a clone of Osama? they would have been able to study it/him and bring down Al Qaeda faster ...

seriallink: ^^^Do you think a genetic clone would have the same fingerprints as the original? If NO, then, I think every other thing about it, physically & spiritually should be independent of it's origin. Heck, It should have its own soul too~! So, why would you be afraid of an independent clone that has everything of it's own?

For me, I'll consider it a full human since it is independent of its origin.

Hmn, i believe the physical things should be the same - fingerprints, retinal patterns. . .but they might be different due to environmental issues.
But the spiritual or mental patterns - that i dont have any idea - but it should be different.

Cloning humans has been medical possible for several years now. Using the same method of creating a child using the egg of 2 women. Also known to happen naturally though extremely rare in mammals. Clones have weakend immune systems but diff souls and even differences in behaviors from the original.

good 4 u.

The clone would be like a baby identical twin when born. However, I expect to see severe side effects in the future especially with psychotic evil clones. Identical twins have different souls, no need for confusion on that front at all.

This one fear me ooo....Wat happens if original boy marry clone girl...na wa ooo....infact, e go reach one point bridal dowry go different...man need know whether na original u dey pay for to marry or na clone (fake)...lol..... .....and who go carry better respect....person wey sleep with original or person wey sleep with clone (fake).... ....just sayin ni oooo

See my own view on this cloning thing is. As far as one succeeds in creating a clone, yes it a human being. Its GOD that has the sole right to give life and once its alive and breathing meaning GOD has given it life and also a spirit and a soul. Its not possible that the clone will carry its former body's spirit, soul, flesh etc.
What the scientists succeeded in creating or replicating was the body. Even if u transfer everything in the brain of the old to the new. Its still a different soul, cos u can't make GOD start waiting or u canr delay judgement or whatever because of our scientific practices. Just, he was only able to replicate a new body (I will call it a cloise resemblance or duplicate) only for the flesh. The soul and spirit of this new one will be different and will be judged by his maker GOD differently from the old one. That's my view. I don't think any scientist has the ability to delay judgement, creat a soul or spirit or even bring back the soul of a dead people or even a living one in the name. Of cloning. Once u clone GOD gives a new soul and spirit to this person. The only thing man did was to alter his look and make him or her look like someone who is gone or dead. Even if u did it with cells that are from the former person. Its still a new soul and spirit simple.

maclatunji: The clone would be like a baby identical twin when born. However, I expect to see severe side effects in the future especially with psychotic evil clones. Identical twins have different souls, no need for confusion on that front at all.

Hmn, this one na serious matter o.

Siga: This one fear me ooo....Wat happens if original boy marry clone girl...na wa ooo....infact, e go reach one point bridal dowry go different...man need know whether na original u dey pay for to marry or na clone (fake)...lol..... .....and who go carry better respect....person wey sleep with original or person wey sleep with clone (fake).... ....just sayin ni oooo

Cloned kitten. . .

If it's true the babies will have Health issues that's common to only adults, except They cloned the genes from new born babies.

The clone will not have same body/soul/spirit like the originals. Just identical morphology.

its ik: See my own view on this cloning thing is. As far as one succeeds in creating a clone, yes it a human being. Its GOD that has the sole right to give life and once its alive and breathing meaning GOD has given it life and also a spirit and a soul. Its not possible that the clone will carry its former body's spirit, soul, flesh etc.
What the scientists succeeded in creating or replicating was the body. Even if u transfer everything in the brain of the old to the new. Its still a different soul, cos u can't make GOD start waiting or u canr delay judgement or whatever because of our scientific practices. Just, he was only able to replicate a new body (I will call it a cloise resemblance or duplicate) only for the flesh. The soul and spirit of this new one will be different and will be judged by his maker GOD differently from the old one. That's my view. I don't think any scientist has the ability to delay judgement, creat a soul or spirit or even bring back the soul of a dead people or even a living one in the name. Of cloning. Once u clone GOD gives a new soul and spirit to this person. The only thing man did was to alter his look and make him or her look like someone who is gone or dead. Even if u did it with cells that are from the former person. Its still a new soul and spirit simple.

Lol, i dont completely agree. In fact, me i believe the clone will just have the original body + pirated spirit + depraved mind (incomplete mind).
It might be a mindless zombie terrorizing people up and down, because it cannot understand normal humans. . .

this isn't cloning..it is artificial insemination. cloning...my guy..i pray oo..