In African, as well as other societies of bygone eras, we had tribal or communal gods who were worshipped and looked upon for protection and benedictions.
According to the bible, yahweh/jehovah was the tribal god of ancient hebrews whom they served, worshipped , and looked upon for protection from their enemies.
The dichotomy between the the yahweh of the ancient hebrews and the spiritual, absract god of that jesus spoke about is so glaring and wide, yet adherents of the christian religion have always deemed it necessary to conflate the invisible, spiritual and absract god of jesus with the flesh and blood deity of the ancient hebrews.

Many early christian scholars and pioneers were aware of this dichotomy and campaigned vigorously to seperate the christian god of Jesus from the hebrew god, Yahweh/Jehovah. Notable among these was Marcion of Sinope(c85-c160). As expected, the established majority rose against him and he was excommunicated from the early church.

That Jehovah/yahweh as the chief tribal god of the ancient hebrew has never been in dispute, but when christian apologist like Anony and Ihedinobi, aka Batman and Robin, stubbornly conflate the two and try to promote Yahweh/Jehovah as the cosmic god and creator of the universe,they evoke much laughter and mockery and are looked upon as people who have forgotten to read their bibles, their history books, and have, instead to desperately clung to their sunday school renditions of historical facts.

That the ancient hebrews acknowledged and worshipped only one god who created the universe is surely one of the biggest whoppers ever sold.
Even the bible contains numerous references to many other gods, but somehow, my good friend, Mr Anony cannot seem to find these references in his own bible(I dont know what version of the god's word he is reading), and his sidekick, Mr Ihedinobi continues to assert, with great confidence, that yahweh/Jehovah is the one and only supreme being who created the universe, even when their bible, their inerrant word of god,says the exact opposite in many passages.

Gen.1:26 and the Elohim said "Let us make man in OUR image and likeness".
Gen: 3:22 "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil".
Gen. 11:7 "Let US go down and confound their language"

Psalm 82. "Jehovah sits in the congregation of the mighty, and he judgeth among the gods."
Jeremiah 50:2 "....... Bel(junior babylonian god) is confounded, Merodach(supreme babylonian god )is broken in pieces, her idols are confounded, her images in pieces"

Psalms 86:8 " Among the gods, there is none like unto thee, O' lord, neither are there any works like unto thy works".
psalms 89:6 " For who in heaven can be compared to the lord?"

in the Bible we can read :

Dt:32:7: Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.

Dt:32:8: When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

Dt:32:9: For the Lord's portion(Yahweh's share?) is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

"When the Ely-on (another name of El) apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods (i.e., each god controlled one nation of people); Yahweh's own portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share."

Yahweh ruled as the king of the other children of El. In this role, he presided whenever the Assembly of the Gods whenever they met in council. The pre-eminence of Yahweh over the other gods is repeatedly asserted in Psalms.

Why do the Ten Commandments command that there should be no other gods "before Me" (the Lord), if there are no other gods as claimed by other biblical texts? Why should the Israelites sing at the crossing of the Red Sea that "there is no god like You, O Lord?" (Exodus 15:11)


http://www.jhsonline.org/reviews/review031.htm

Good points.

Azazel too should be considered

You have to give it to them. They make good theists, horrible, horrible Yahweh apologists....

May the verbal gymnastics begin...

muskeeto2: You have to give it to them. They make good theists, horrible, horrible Yahweh apologists....

May the verbal gymnastics begin...

They seem to be getting poorer and poorer. Where are our stars?

hey guys,

by the way, check out this cool video about omniscient Yahweh's amazing test on his creatures


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYvcc8ui3CM

cyrexx: hey guys,

by the way, check out this cool video about omniscient Yahweh's amazing test on his creatures


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYvcc8ui3CM

I haven't even seen the video, but an omniscient being taking or giving a test...ok

In order to believe this stuff, well... I'm an xtian on another thread and it's real tough defending the claims, I had to bail out. Suddenly I have respect for anony/ihe. They are xtian all day...

cyrexx: hey guys,

by the way, check out this cool video about omniscient Yahweh's amazing test on his creatures


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYvcc8ui3CM

[size=18pt]Are you mad Cyrexx? I dont watch the Non-stampcollector's videos because it is like suicide. I almost die of laughter every time. Too much! [/size]

Joshua 24:2 ".....even Terah, the father of Abraham, served other gods.

Jeremiah 7:18 "The children gather wood, the father kindles the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to The Queen Of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods."

Jeremiah 7:23 " But this thing commandeth I them, Obey my voice, and I will be your god and ye my shall be my people:
This is straight from the mouth of yahweh. Note that he did not say "I am your god" nor did he say "I am god".
He simply said " I will be your god, and ye shall be my people"

This clearly and unambigiously confirms what is written in Dt:32:9: For the Lord's portion(Yahweh's share?) is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

Jeremiah 44:25 " .......Ye and your wives have both spoken and fulfilled with your hand, saying, we will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the [b]Queen Of Heaven[/b].

It seemed that the Isrealites were bent on worshipping the queen of heaven despite all the threats from yahweh.
Poor old Yahweh, sulking.
Just Imagine designing and painstakingly fashioning the universe in six days, put humans on it, and then sit and watch your allegiance and authority being usurped by some newbie called the Queen of Heaven.
Poor yahweh.

Who was the queen of heaven and from which self-existent reality did she emerge from to compete with our omnipotent yahweh?

cyrexx: hey guys,

by the way, check out this cool video about omniscient Yahweh's amazing test on his creatures


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYvcc8ui3CM

God is good all the time.
Image 123 and Goshen should take note.

plaetton: Joshua 24:2 ".....even Terah, the father of Abraham, served other gods.

Jeremiah 7:18 "The children gather wood, the father kindles the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to The Queen Of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods."

Jeremiah 7:23 " But this thing commandeth I them, Obey my voice, and I will be your god and ye my shall be my people:
This is straight from the mouth of yahweh. Note that he did not say "I am your god" nor did he say "I am god".
He simply said " I will be your god, and ye shall be my people"

This clearly and unambigiously confirms what is written in Dt:32:9: For the Lord's portion(Yahweh's share?) is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

Jeremiah 44:25 " .......Ye and your wives have both spoken and fulfilled with your hand, saying, we will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the [b]Queen Of Heaven[/b].

It seemed that the Isrealites were bent on worshipping the queen of heaven despite all the threats from yahweh.
Poor old Yahweh, sulking.
Just Imagine designing and painstakingly fashioning the universe in six days, put humans on it, and then sit and watch your allegiance and authority being usurped by some newbie called the Queen of Heaven.
Poor yahweh.

Who was the queen of heaven and from which self-existent reality did she emerge from to compete with our omnipotent yahweh?

funny as it is, it is the truth.

After abandoning Adam in Eden, man has been on his own worshiping other Gods(satan and demons) till through Abraham, he said he will produced a masaiah(via Israel)

Israel was suppose to be a blue print and a light to all other nations, but they were a very notty nation.
Acts 13:47 and Isaiah stated it also.

Yahweh patience with Israel was because of his promises to Abraham, "that by means of Abraham seed all the nation of the earth will bless themself".

So, because whatever Yahweh says must come to pass. Isaiah 55:10,11. He managed/tolerated them.

plaetton:
Who was the queen of heaven and from which self-existent reality did she emerge from to compete with our omnipotent yahweh?

hmmm!

I think you should ask the Roman Catholic church.

They seem to have a thing about a "woman" they pray to Oops!

Sorry but

plaetton:
Who was the queen of heaven and from which self-existent reality did she emerge from to compete with our omnipotent yahweh?

hmmm!

I think you should ask the Roman Catholic church.

They seem to have a thing about a "woman" they pray to Oops!

Sorry but

@Plaetton,

I have read your Op but then, I am not quite clear exactly what it is you want to discuss. For us to have a proper discussion and not argue pointlessly, let me suggest to you to properly define your argument. Perhaps, you can list in bullet points outlining exactly what your position is.
Also, I think it will be a good idea to define the limits of the scope of this topic and what authorities will be acceptable to you. Basically, what I am requesting is that you give the topic some structure and then we can proceed.

Mr_Anony: @Plaetton,

I have read your Op but then, I am not quite clear exactly what it is you want to discuss. For us to have a proper discussion and not argue pointlessly, let me suggest to you to properly define your argument. Perhaps, you can list in bullet points outlining exactly what your position is.
Also, I think it will be a good idea to define the limits of the scope of this topic and what authorities will be acceptable to you. Basically, what I am requesting is that you give the topic some structure and then we can proceed.

Seconded! About to write same.

n

My position is quite simple.

That the ancient Hebrew culture and religion were never monotheistic, and that monotheism as an ideal was arrived quite late in their history.
That Yahweh was one, and perhaps a junior god in the Canaanite pantheon of gods.
That the bible clearly and unambigously repeats that the Elohim(plural for El) created mankind to till the soil(in other words, a slave race)

That one or a group of the Elohim had better plans for mankind, and therefore granted or gave mankind an enhanced mental ability to think, imagine and be creative.
That this did not go down well with Yahweh and his own crew of Elohim. And that out of fear of the potentials of the human being, Yahweh and his crew sought and used various means to enslave the human mind, human imagination, creativity and potentials.
The garden of eden incident with adam and the serpent(he who knows secrets) and the tower of babel incident clearly demonstrate these facts.

That the so-called gods fought amongst themselves about what should the future of mankind.
That eventually the earth was divided among the Elohim with each god or clan of gods inheriting a portion of the earth and its people.
The bible emphasises again that Yahweh/Jehovah inherited some portions, perhaps a very small portion, of the land of Canaan.
That perhaps , either the inhabitants were already serving other rival gods, or, they did not want to serve Jahweh(obviously because of his bad reputations), Yahweh decided to adopt a tribe of Israelites who were languishing in Egypt, as his own people to serve him alone in his small canaanite domain.
Again, following the bible, we read, that Yahweh took them to the wilderness for 40 yrs in order purge them of all traces of Egyptian and Canaanite cultures and influence. In that time he alone killed more than 40,000 of them, with the ultimate aim of starting with a fresh generation that he could mould according to his will.

According tot he bible, yahweh then commanded them to begin their campaigns of genocide of the weaker habitants of the areas along the way as he led them to his own inherited land. Is it possible for a loving creator god of the universe to command some of is children to murder and pillage his other children?.

We also see very clearly in the bible, that the Israelites feared yahweh, but did not like nor respect him.
At any given opportunity, they served and made supplications to other gods such as Ashera, who was believed to be the consort of yahweh, El or El-Elyon, the most senior god and who was believed to be head of the supreme council of gods(psalms 82),Baal, a junior god who was believed to be the son of EL-elyon, Lilith, who was the queen of heaven mentioned severally in jeremiah, and also believed to be the daughter of one of the gods, yahweh or El-elyon.
In addition, the Israelites served and worshipped gods from Egypt. Even king Solomon,supposedly the wisest man that ever lived(big laugh) saw it wise to serve other gods besides yahweh. Is that an irony or what?

Repeatedly in the bible, we hear yahweh say to the Israelite," I am your god and you are my people". And in return, the Israelite affirmed him as "our god, the god of Israel".
In ancient Summer, as well as in Egypt, Babylon and Canaan, kings adopted the epithets of their patron gods to show their allegiance to that particular diety. for example in Epytp we see pharaohs like Amen-Hotep, Amenra being the patron god. or, Ptah-Hotep with the supreme Egyptian god Ptah being the patron of this pharoah. Likewise the israelite kings had Jah at the beginning of their names to emphasize their allegiance to jahovah.

In Babylon we had Nebu as the patron god when Nebu-chadnezzar as the king. therefore it is grossly fallacious and mere fantasy to propose that Nebu-chadnezzar, king of babylon and servant of Nebu, could have , at any time , served the interest of yahweh. Pure nonsense. The hebrew scribes in babylon had to fine a means to justify the failure of yahweh to save them from the destruction and exile in babylon, so they rationalized, much like many nairaland yahwehists, that yahweh only allowed it to happen because he wanted to.
Big laugh.

A lot of the Summerian,Babylonian , Canaanite and Egyptian gods are mentioned or referred to in the bible.
Examples, Tammuz or Dammuzzi,Merodach or Marduk, Nebo, Hadad,Nergal, Ashera/Innana/Ishtar, Baal, Lilith the queen of heaven,Sin,El-shadai, the great mountain lord, Adonai,El-elyon.

These are some of the members of the great council of the gods which yahweh?jehovah attended according to psalms 82.
Since Yahweh was not itself a name of a god, it is possible that and has been speculated that Yahweh's identity might be, and closely resemble a few of the junior Summerian gods such as Teshub,Hadad,Ishkur or even the senior god Ninurta the scorcher. According to summerian texts these four gods had a hatred for mankind, all were rivals of the Babylonian gods Marduk and Nebo and the Egyptian god Amen-Ra. Besides, they write that it was the Ninurta the scorcher, who unleashed the seven deadly weapons on the twin cities of Sodom and Gormorrah, as punishment for switching allegiance to Marduk during the battle of kings briefly mentioned in Genesis 14. that war was a proxy war by the kings on behalf of their patron gods in what seemd like a territorial dispute among the gods.

It is no surprise that in helping his patron god attain victory in that war, Abraham was rewarded with a long term convanent, and the cities of Soddom and Gomorrah,got the seven deadly weapons unleashed on them, thanks to Ninurta aka yahweh jehova, the scorcher.

So my position is very simple:
The ancient Hebrew culture and religion were never monotheistic. The bible abundantly makes it clear.
Yahweh/Jehova was just of the pantheon gods of Summer, Babylon, and then later Canaan.
The idea that yahhweh and the Universal god that Jesus spoke about are one and the same is the most absurd notion, and biggest con game ever, and the jews never bought it to this day.

^^^^
Could this be the face of Yahweh?

The first two are depictions of The summerian god Ninurta , the scorcher as he was known in Summer. There are opinions that he might very well masquraded as the hebrew god Yahweh/Jehovah.

How can one award you the internets @plaet?
I think they are all made up stories, but omnixx.x monotheism clearly makes no sense, at all. And there were clearly gods other than yahweh, like you say there was rationalization, probably some priests trying to save their necks.

I will concede fiery chariots seen across civilizations, and a few other myths like dragons shared across as well may point at other things, but I very highly doubt those claims. I would have to look into it though...

wiegraf: How can one award you the internets @plaet?
I think they are all made up stories, but omnixx.x monotheism clearly makes no sense, at all. And there were clearly gods other than yahweh, like you say there was rationalization, probably some priests trying to save their necks.

I will concede fiery chariots seen across civilizations, and a few other myths like dragons shared across as well may point at other things, but I very highly doubt those claims. I would have to look into it though...

He he he.
For the benefits of staunch bible-believing folks like Anony, Ihedinobi, Goshen, etc, I am just rehashing what is clearly written in their bible.

Except for my brief mentions of Summerian texts as adjucts,everything in my piece is from the bible.

plaetton: My position is quite simple.

That the ancient Hebrew culture and religion were never monotheistic, and that monotheism as an ideal was arrived quite late in their history.
That Yahweh was one, and perhaps a junior god in the Canaanite pantheon of gods.
That the bible clearly and unambigously repeats that the Elohim(plural for El) created mankind to till the soil(in other words, a slave race)

That one or a group of the Elohim had better plans for mankind, and therefore granted or gave mankind an enhanced mental ability to think, imagine and be creative.
That this did not go down well with Yahweh and his own crew of Elohim. And that out of fear of the potentials of the human being, Yahweh and his crew sought and used various means to enslave the human mind, human imagination, creativity and potentials.
The garden of eden incident with adam and the serpent(he who knows secrets) and the tower of babel incident clearly demonstrate these facts.

That the so-called gods fought amongst themselves about what should the future of mankind.
That eventually the earth was divided among the Elohim with each god or clan of gods inheriting a portion of the earth and its people.
The bible emphasises again that Yahweh/Jehovah inherited some portions, perhaps a very small portion, of the land of Canaan.
That perhaps , either the inhabitants were already serving other rival gods, or, they did not want to serve Jahweh(obviously because of his bad reputations), Yahweh decided to adopt a tribe of Israelites who were languishing in Egypt, as his own people to serve him alone in his small canaanite domain.
Again, following the bible, we read, that Yahweh took them to the wilderness for 40 yrs in order purge them of all traces of Egyptian and Canaanite cultures and influence. In that time he alone killed more than 40,000 of them, with the ultimate aim of starting with a fresh generation that he could mould according to his will.

According tot he bible, yahweh then commanded them to begin their campaigns of genocide of the weaker habitants of the areas along the way as he led them to his own inherited land. Is it possible for a loving creator god of the universe to command some of is children to murder and pillage his other children?.

We also see very clearly in the bible, that the Israelites feared yahweh, but did not like nor respect him.
At any given opportunity, they served and made supplications to other gods such as Ashera, who was believed to be the consort of yahweh, El or El-Elyon, the most senior god and who was believed to be head of the supreme council of gods(psalms 82),Baal, a junior god who was believed to be the son of EL-elyon, Lilith, who was the queen of heaven mentioned severally in jeremiah, and also believed to be the daughter of one of the gods, yahweh or El-elyon.
In addition, the Israelites served and worshipped gods from Egypt. Even king Solomon,supposedly the wisest man that ever lived(big laugh) saw it wise to serve other gods besides yahweh. Is that an irony or what?

Repeatedly in the bible, we hear yahweh say to the Israelite," I am your god and you are my people". And in return, the Israelite affirmed him as "our god, the god of Israel".
In ancient Summer, as well as in Egypt, Babylon and Canaan, kings adopted the epithets of their patron gods to show their allegiance to that particular diety. for example in Epytp we see pharaohs like Amen-Hotep, Amenra being the patron god. or, Ptah-Hotep with the supreme Egyptian god Ptah being the patron of this pharoah. Likewise the israelite kings had Jah at the beginning of their names to emphasize their allegiance to jahovah.

In Babylon we had Nebu as the patron god when Nebu-chadnezzar as the king. therefore it is grossly fallacious and mere fantasy to propose that Nebu-chadnezzar, king of babylon and servant of Nebu, could have , at any time , served the interest of yahweh. Pure nonsense. The hebrew scribes in babylon had to fine a means to justify the failure of yahweh to save them from the destruction and exile in babylon, so they rationalized, much like many nairaland yahwehists, that yahweh only allowed it to happen because he wanted to.
Big laugh.

A lot of the Summerian,Babylonian , Canaanite and Egyptian gods are mentioned or referred to in the bible.
Examples, Tammuz or Dammuzzi,Merodach or Marduk, Nebo, Hadad,Nergal, Ashera/Innana/Ishtar, Baal, Lilith the queen of heaven,Sin,El-shadai, the great mountain lord, Adonai,El-elyon.

These are some of the members of the great council of the gods which yahweh?jehovah attended according to psalms 82.
Since Yahweh was not itself a name of a god, it is possible that and has been speculated that Yahweh's identity might be, and closely resemble a few of the junior Summerian gods such as Teshub,Hadad,Ishkur or even the senior god Ninurta the scorcher. According to summerian texts these four gods had a hatred for mankind, all were rivals of the Babylonian gods Marduk and Nebo and the Egyptian god Amen-Ra. Besides, they write that it was the Ninurta the scorcher, who unleashed the seven deadly weapons on the twin cities of Sodom and Gormorrah, as punishment for switching allegiance to Marduk during the battle of kings briefly mentioned in Genesis 14. that war was a proxy war by the kings on behalf of their patron gods in what seemd like a territorial dispute among the gods.

So my position is very simple:
The ancient Hebrew culture and religion were never monotheistic. The bible abundantly makes it clear.
Yahweh/Jehova was just of the pantheon gods of Summer, Babylon, and then later Canaan.
The idea that yahhweh and the Universal god that Jesus spoke about are one and the same is the most absurd notion, and biggest con game ever, and the jews never bought it to this day.

Ok, every one has to take a stand. QED.

Your stand is noted.

I love this! My friend and I witnessed a ufo spacecraft a few years ago in England. It was a huge light ball at first,then it became visible. Ever since,I have made a lot of research and discovered that there have been several similar sightings all over the world. In fact some cases of contact and abductions have also been reported. I do wonder if these beings are the guardians in the sky reported several times in the bible. I for one take the bible as a book filled with Instructor Extraterrestrials encounters.

In Africa,we have several stories of God coming from the sky to mingle with humans. God coming down in fly boats. This really looks very much like the UFO sightings. Jesus in the bible was said to be caught up in the sky and an angel beside him.....could this be another typical example? Paul was arrested by a bright shining light,was this a UFO spacecraft? The star that led the 3 wise men to the Jesus could be a UFO? I am sure it is. The list goes on....Moses,Ezekiel,Elijah and the chariots of fire or UFO spacecraft.

Take a ride to India, their Gods used flying boats to visit them.

It is obvious that human DNA is not from this planet, which means we too are alien to this planet as well.

Yahweh of the ancient Israelites was probably an extraterrestrial assigned to that particular region. As we learnt from their history,he helped them during war and probably spiritual knowledge. He manipulated them and made them worship him as a God. His influence faded away at some point probably because of his abuse of power. It can be seen that the same people he rescued from Egypt we taken back into captivity by the Babylonians. Psalm 81 clearly shows that there is a council of the gods who govern our vast universe. Yahweh who also the god of the Christians is also one of them.

These are my own personal understanding of the bible. Knowledge is power,secret knowledge is more power.

plaetton: In African, as well as other societies of bygone eras, we had tribal or communal gods who were worshipped and looked upon for protection and benedictions.
According to the bible, yahweh/jehovah was the tribal god of ancient hebrews whom they served, worshipped , and looked upon for protection from their enemies.
The dichotomy between the the yahweh of the ancient hebrews and the spiritual, absract god of that jesus spoke about is so glaring and wide, yet adherents of the christian religion have always deemed it necessary to conflate the invisible, spiritual and absract god of jesus with the flesh and blood deity of the ancient hebrews.

Many early christian scholars and pioneers were aware of this dichotomy and campaigned vigorously to seperate the christian god of Jesus from the hebrew god, Yahweh/Jehovah. Notable among these was Marcion of Sinope(c85-c160). As expected, the established majority rose against him and he was excommunicated from the early church.

That Jehovah/yahweh as the chief tribal god of the ancient hebrew has never been in dispute, but when christian apologist like Anony and Ihedinobi, aka Batman and Robin, stubbornly conflate the two and try to promote Yahweh/Jehovah as the cosmic god and creator of the universe,they evoke much laughter and mockery and are looked upon as people who have forgotten to read their bibles, their history books, and have, instead to desperately clung to their sunday school renditions of historical facts.

That the ancient hebrews acknowledged and worshipped only one god who created the universe is surely one of the biggest whoppers ever sold.
Even the bible contains numerous references to many other gods, but somehow, my good friend, Mr Anony cannot seem to find these references in his own bible(I dont know what version of the god's word he is reading), and his sidekick, Mr Ihedinobi continues to assert, with great confidence, that yahweh/Jehovah is the one and only supreme being who created the universe, even when their bible, their inerrant word of god,says the exact opposite in many passages.

Gen.1:26 and the Elohim said "Let us make man in OUR image and likeness".
Gen: 3:22 "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil".
Gen. 11:7 "Let US go down and confound their language"

Psalm 82. "Jehovah sits in the congregation of the mighty, and he judgeth among the gods."
Jeremiah 50:2 "....... Bel(junior babylonian god) is confounded, Merodach(supreme babylonian god )is broken in pieces, her idols are confounded, her images in pieces"

Psalms 86:8 " Among the gods, there is none like unto thee, O' lord, neither are there any works like unto thy works".
psalms 89:6 " For who in heaven can be compared to the lord?"

in the Bible we can read :

Dt:32:7: Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.

Dt:32:8: When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

Dt:32:9: For the Lord's portion(Yahweh's share?) is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

"When the Ely-on (another name of El) apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods (i.e., each god controlled one nation of people); Yahweh's own portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share."

Yahweh ruled as the king of the other children of El. In this role, he presided whenever the Assembly of the Gods whenever they met in council. The pre-eminence of Yahweh over the other gods is repeatedly asserted in Psalms.

Why do the Ten Commandments command that there should be no other gods "before Me" (the Lord), if there are no other gods as claimed by other biblical texts? Why should the Israelites sing at the crossing of the Red Sea that "there is no god like You, O Lord?" (Exodus 15:11)


http://www.jhsonline.org/reviews/review031.htm

plaetton: My position is quite simple.

That the ancient Hebrew culture and religion were never monotheistic, and that monotheism as an ideal was arrived quite late in their history.
That Yahweh was one, and perhaps a junior god in the Canaanite pantheon of gods.
That the bible clearly and unambigously repeats that the Elohim(plural for El) created mankind to till the soil(in other words, a slave race)

That one or a group of the Elohim had better plans for mankind, and therefore granted or gave mankind an enhanced mental ability to think, imagine and be creative.
That this did not go down well with Yahweh and his own crew of Elohim. And that out of fear of the potentials of the human being, Yahweh and his crew sought and used various means to enslave the human mind, human imagination, creativity and potentials.
The garden of eden incident with adam and the serpent(he who knows secrets) and the tower of babel incident clearly demonstrate these facts.

That the so-called gods fought amongst themselves about what should the future of mankind.
That eventually the earth was divided among the Elohim with each god or clan of gods inheriting a portion of the earth and its people.
The bible emphasises again that Yahweh/Jehovah inherited some portions, perhaps a very small portion, of the land of Canaan.
That perhaps , either the inhabitants were already serving other rival gods, or, they did not want to serve Jahweh(obviously because of his bad reputations), Yahweh decided to adopt a tribe of Israelites who were languishing in Egypt, as his own people to serve him alone in his small canaanite domain.
Again, following the bible, we read, that Yahweh took them to the wilderness for 40 yrs in order purge them of all traces of Egyptian and Canaanite cultures and influence. In that time he alone killed more than 40,000 of them, with the ultimate aim of starting with a fresh generation that he could mould according to his will.

According tot he bible, yahweh then commanded them to begin their campaigns of genocide of the weaker habitants of the areas along the way as he led them to his own inherited land. Is it possible for a loving creator god of the universe to command some of is children to murder and pillage his other children?.

We also see very clearly in the bible, that the Israelites feared yahweh, but did not like nor respect him.
At any given opportunity, they served and made supplications to other gods such as Ashera, who was believed to be the consort of yahweh, El or El-Elyon, the most senior god and who was believed to be head of the supreme council of gods(psalms 82),Baal, a junior god who was believed to be the son of EL-elyon, Lilith, who was the queen of heaven mentioned severally in jeremiah, and also believed to be the daughter of one of the gods, yahweh or El-elyon.
In addition, the Israelites served and worshipped gods from Egypt. Even king Solomon,supposedly the wisest man that ever lived(big laugh) saw it wise to serve other gods besides yahweh. Is that an irony or what?

Repeatedly in the bible, we hear yahweh say to the Israelite," I am your god and you are my people". And in return, the Israelite affirmed him as "our god, the god of Israel".
In ancient Summer, as well as in Egypt, Babylon and Canaan, kings adopted the epithets of their patron gods to show their allegiance to that particular diety. for example in Epytp we see pharaohs like Amen-Hotep, Amenra being the patron god. or, Ptah-Hotep with the supreme Egyptian god Ptah being the patron of this pharoah. Likewise the israelite kings had Jah at the beginning of their names to emphasize their allegiance to jahovah.

In Babylon we had Nebu as the patron god when Nebu-chadnezzar as the king. therefore it is grossly fallacious and mere fantasy to propose that Nebu-chadnezzar, king of babylon and servant of Nebu, could have , at any time , served the interest of yahweh. Pure nonsense. The hebrew scribes in babylon had to fine a means to justify the failure of yahweh to save them from the destruction and exile in babylon, so they rationalized, much like many nairaland yahwehists, that yahweh only allowed it to happen because he wanted to.
Big laugh.

A lot of the Summerian,Babylonian , Canaanite and Egyptian gods are mentioned or referred to in the bible.
Examples, Tammuz or Dammuzzi,Merodach or Marduk, Nebo, Hadad,Nergal, Ashera/Innana/Ishtar, Baal, Lilith the queen of heaven,Sin,El-shadai, the great mountain lord, Adonai,El-elyon.

These are some of the members of the great council of the gods which yahweh?jehovah attended according to psalms 82.
Since Yahweh was not itself a name of a god, it is possible that and has been speculated that Yahweh's identity might be, and closely resemble a few of the junior Summerian gods such as Teshub,Hadad,Ishkur or even the senior god Ninurta the scorcher. According to summerian texts these four gods had a hatred for mankind, all were rivals of the Babylonian gods Marduk and Nebo and the Egyptian god Amen-Ra. Besides, they write that it was the Ninurta the scorcher, who unleashed the seven deadly weapons on the twin cities of Sodom and Gormorrah, as punishment for switching allegiance to Marduk during the battle of kings briefly mentioned in Genesis 14. that war was a proxy war by the kings on behalf of their patron gods in what seemd like a territorial dispute among the gods.

It is no surprise that in helping his patron god attain victory in that war, Abraham was rewarded with a long term convanent, and the cities of Soddom and Gomorrah,got the seven deadly weapons unleashed on them, thanks to Ninurta aka yahweh jehova, the scorcher.

So my position is very simple:
The ancient Hebrew culture and religion were never monotheistic. The bible abundantly makes it clear.
Yahweh/Jehova was just of the pantheon gods of Summer, Babylon, and then later Canaan.
The idea that yahhweh and the Universal god that Jesus spoke about are one and the same is the most absurd notion, and biggest con game ever, and the jews never bought it to this day.

@plaetton, Ok good.

This is what I get from what you've said so far.

1. In the ancient middle-east region, the people that lived at that time were polytheists.
2. Yahweh was one of the deities worshiped but was the patron of the Hebrews
3. The bible supports no. 2
4. Jesus Christ did not refer to Yahweh as God but some other deity.

Are these a fair representation of your claims in a nutshell?

N.B: For us to have a meaningful discussion, we will for the purposes of this debate, rely on the bible as our source and you may bring in other ancient texts such as Summerian or Babylonian texts as independent sources but don't try to pass them off as Hebrew texts because they are not.
What the ancient Hebrews believed is in the Old Testament. Any Babylonian document is simply what the Babylonians believed same applies to Assyrians, Egyptians, Mesopotamians etc. Don't start claiming that the Assyrians believed it therefore so did the Hebrews. It doesn't follow.

The Question I believe you are asking is: Were the ancient Hebrews Monotheist or Polytheist?

I want you to remember this and we will treat every post in light of it. Let us stick to the topic and avoid going on unnecessary tangents.

If you agree with the above, then let us move on. If not, please outline your objections if you may.

^^^^
Daniel 4:13 " I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and behold, a Watcher and an Holy one came down from heaven".

Jeremiah 4:16 "Mke ye mention to the nations, behold, publish against jerusalem, that WATCHERS come from a far country and give out their voice against the cities of Judah".

Mr_Anony:


@plaetton, Ok good.

This is what I get from what you've said so far.

1. In the ancient middle-east region, the people that lived at that time were polytheists.
2. Yahweh was one of the deities worshiped but was the patron of the Hebrews
3. The bible supports no. 2
4. Jesus Christ did not refer to Yahweh as God but some other deity.

Are these a fair representation of your claims in a nutshell?

N.B: For us to have a meaningful discussion, we will for the purposes of this debate, rely on the bible as our source and you may bring in other ancient texts such as Summerian or Babylonian texts as independent sources but don't try to pass them off as Hebrew texts because they are not.
What the ancient Hebrews believed is in the Old Testament. Any Babylonian document is simply what the Babylonians believed same applies to Assyrians, Egyptians, Mesopotamians etc. Don't start claiming that the Assyrians believed it therefore so did the Hebrews. It doesn't follow.

The Question I believe you are asking is: Were the ancient Hebrews Monotheist or Polytheist?

I want you to remember this and we will treat every post in light of it. Let us stick to the topic and avoid going on unnecessary tangents.

If you agree with the above, then let us move on. If not, please outline your objections if you may.

Fair

P/s: I am a bit occupied at the moment so please bear with me if my replies don't come in as quickly as you would like.

plaetton:

Fair

Ok then, here goes.

1. In the ancient middle-east region, the people that lived at that time were polytheists.
2. Yahweh was one of the deities worshiped but was the patron of the Hebrews
3. The bible supports no. 2
4. Jesus Christ did not refer to Yahweh as God but some other deity.

1. It is true that the ancient middle-eastern tribes were polytheist. The Hebrews however, were not.

2. To begin to claim that Yahweh was one of multiple deities, you must show evidence from these other tribes if they list Yahweh as a member of their league of deities. If you do not, then we will take it that they did not know Yahweh and that He was alien to them. This will mean that it is useless even considering their texts because they didn't recognize Yahweh anyway.
If on the other hand, you can show show us Yahweh mentioned in the literature of the other tribes, then we can look into it further.

3. Where we cannot find Yahweh mentioned anywhere else apart from within Hebrew tradition, We will take it that the texts from the other tribes are talking about something else entirely and unrelated to the Old Testament.

Now we have the Old Testament before us and our task is now limited to proving solely from the Old testament if Yahweh is a deity among a number of other deities. After we have answered this question, then we will move onto if God is the same in the old and new testament.


Again if you have any objections, please do tell.

(forgive my fussing but I am doing all this so as to keep the discussion straightforward and not haphazard by laying a foundation eliminating pointless excesses)

plaetton: ^^^^
Daniel 4:13 " I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and behold, a Watcher and an Holy one came down from heaven".

Jeremiah 4:16 "Mke ye mention to the nations, behold, publish against jerusalem, that WATCHERS come from a far country and give out their voice against the cities of Judah".

Quoted for reference.

Mr_Anony: P/s: I am a bit occupied at the moment so please bear with me if my replies don't come in as quickly as you would like.

No problems, same here.

By the way, you might want to send the bat signal to your sidekick Robin, aka Ihedinobi to come and fight this anti-yahwehist villain with you. lol.

plaetton:

No problems, same here.

By the way, you might want to send the bat signal to your sidekick Robin, aka Ihedinobi to come and fight this anti-yahwehist villain with you. lol.

Let's try to keep things serious shall we? If Ihedinobi chooses to join this thread, it's all up to him.

Mr_Anony:
Ok then, here goes.



1. It is true that the ancient middle-eastern tribes were polytheist. The Hebrews however, were not.

2. To begin to claim that Yahweh was one of multiple deities, you must show evidence from these other tribes if they list Yahweh as a member of their league of deities. If you do not, then we will take it that they did not know Yahweh and that He was alien to them. This will mean that it is useless even considering their texts because they didn't recognize Yahweh anyway.
If on the other hand, you can show show us Yahweh mentioned in the literature of the other tribes, then we can look into it further.

3. Where we cannot find Yahweh mentioned anywhere else apart from within Hebrew tradition, We will take it that the texts from the other tribes are talking about something else entirely and unrelated to the Old Testament.

Now we have the Old Testament before us and our task is now limited to proving solely from the Old testament if Yahweh is a deity among a number of other deities. After we have answered this question, then we will move onto if God is the same in the old and new testament.


Again if you have any objections, please do tell.

(forgive my fussing but I am doing all this so as to keep the discussion straightforward and not haphazard by laying a foundation eliminating pointless excesses)


Quoted for reference.

First, yahweh, as you know is not the name of any god. The hebrew god decided not to reveal his name or identity to the israelites. Yahweh/jehovah is just an improvised abbreviation for the words," I am who I am ", which literally means, "Never mind".
Therefore one cannot expect to find the name yahweh in canaanite lore.
But by his own clear words and actions, along with clear passages from psalms 82, Deut.32:9 and others, we see that Yahweh,whatever else he was called in Canaan, was just one of many.
Do you dispute psalms 82 and Deut. 32:9?

The myth of hebrew monothiesm.
Part 1 BBC documentary.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aYaV72MmWo&playnext=1&list=PLDD8A06CB172F3660&feature=results_video

Part 2 BBC Documentary.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HYpGHXagBA&feature=autoplay&list=PLDD8A06CB172F3660&playnext=2

^^^^

The time you spend thinking and talking about this MYTH is commendable.

Accept my congratulations !!

frosbel: ^^^^

The time you spend thinking and talking about this MYTH is commendable.

Accept my congratulations !!

Thank you.
I extend same to you on the time you spend to debate and discuss other religions and sects.