Brothers, now that we have almost annihilated the Trinitarians , we can now properly, honourably , lovingly and brotherly discuss the pre-existence of Christ.

This is just for information, the most important baseline is that we believe Jesus is not Yahweh.

Now we will prove that Jesus was either begotten through Mary or before the supposed incarnation.

We can agree to disagree honourably and I trust that we will keep to this virute and not behave like the Trinitarians.

Personally , I believe that Jesus was begotten when born through Mary , let us discuss and also use scripture to elaborate.

Thanks,

Colossians 1:15-17
New International Version (NIV)
The Supremacy of the Son of God

15 The Son is the image of the
invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation. 16 For in him all things
were created: things in heaven and
on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or
rulers or authorities; all things have
been created through him and for
him. 17 He is before all things, and
in him all things hold together.

I believe Jesus existed before He became flesh on earth.

He is the firstborn of all creation. There are other things that were created but He was brought forth first by the Father personally. That is Why He is the only begotten son of God and the first to be created by God.

The angels and so many other things were in existence when He become flesh but v16 made us to understand that all these things that were in existence when He was still in Mary's womb were created through Him and for Him.

v17 says that He is before all thing. Which means He was there when all other things were created.

@Frosbel
I think you should set the tone for the discussion cause this is the first time i am hearing it being suggested by christian that Jesus christ did not pre-exist before his incarnation here on earth. To the best of my knowledge there are several scriptures which make it clear that Jesus existed in heaven before coming down to earth so the onus is on you to tell us why you think otherwise.

Pastor Kun: @Frosbel
I think you should set the tone for the discussion cause this is the first time i am hearing it being suggested by christian that Jesus christ did not pre-exist before his incarnation here on earth. To the best of my knowledge there are several scriptures which make it clear that Jesus existed in heaven before coming down to earth so the onus is on you to tell us why you think otherwise.

Okay , later this evening I will state my case.

Again, my case or point is not final, this is for enlightenment.

Boomark: Colossians 1:15-17
New International Version (NIV)
The Supremacy of the Son of God

15 The Son is the image of the
invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation. 16 For in him all things
were created: things in heaven and
on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or
rulers or authorities; all things have
been created through him and for
him. 17 He is before all things, and
in him all things hold together.

I believe Jesus existed before He became flesh on earth.

He is the firstborn of all creation. There are other things that were created but He was brought forth first by the Father personally. That is Why He is the only begotten son of God and the first to be created by God.

The angels and so many other things were in existence when He become flesh but v16 made us to understand that all these things that were in existence when He was still in Mary's womb were created through Him and for Him.

v17 says that He is before all thing. Which means He was there when all other things were created.

Pastor Kun: @Frosbel
I think you should set the tone for the discussion cause this is the first time i am hearing it being suggested by christian that Jesus christ did not pre-exist before his incarnation here on earth. To the best of my knowledge there are several scriptures which make it clear that Jesus existed in heaven before coming down to earth so the onus is on you to tell us why you think otherwise.

Frosbel is trying to hard to NULLIFY the deity of Jesus Christ. On the front sit, grabbed my pop corn and patiently waiting......

frosbel: Brothers, now that we have [size=20pt]almost[/size] annihilated the Trinitarians , we can now properly, honourably , lovingly and brotherly discuss the pre-existence of Christ.

This is just for information, the most important baseline is that we believe Jesus is not Yahweh.

Now we will prove that Jesus was either begotten through Mary or before the supposed incarnation.

We can agree to disagree honourably and I trust that we will keep to this virute and not behave like the Trinitarians.

Personally , I believe that Jesus was begotten when born through Mary , let us discuss and also use scripture to elaborate.

Thanks,

Thank God it is "Almost" BUT not "completely".......... . I debunked you on the other thread and you are on the run, you didn't return to that thread. Go back to that thread or I continue to debunk you here..... Whenever you are on hot seat on one thread, you run to start another one and abandon the former. You are only doing your best to nullify Christ and Holy Spirit of the Trinity of God......keep trying bro, we are here to respond to you.

Goshen360:



Frosbel is trying to hard to NULLIFY the deity of Jesus Christ. On the front sit, grabbed my pop corn and patiently waiting......

Goshen you can why sometimes I do not engage you in debates, you accuse me of trying to nullify the deity of JESUS, this is just a wicked assertion that has no truth whatsoever.

Jesus is divine by the mere fact that he was begotten directly by the Spirit of Father GOD and that he now sits exalted above all powers and authority in heaven and earth.

If you look at the title, it says pre-existence of JESUS.

Thanks.

frosbel:

Goshen you can why sometimes I do not engage you in debates, you accuse me of trying to nullify the deity of JESUS, this is just a wicked assertion that has no truth whatsoever.

Jesus is divine by the mere fact that he was begotten directly by the Spirit of Father GOD and that he now sits exalted above all powers and authority in heaven and earth.

If you look at the title, it says pre-existence of JESUS.

Thanks.

Frosbel, stop making me "feel" like I have said something wrong. You even started a thread and said "Jesus is NOT God" while scriptures say otherwise. What then shall be refer your statement of "Jesus is NOT God" to Here is you are saying Jesus is divine......"by mere fact that he was begotten directly by the Spirit of Father GOD and that he now sits exalted above all powers and authority in heaven and earth". NOW, the question is, is this your statement the ONLY basis that scripture says Jesus is divine or that scripture also says Jesus is God

Goshen360:

Frosbel, stop making me "feel" like I have said something wrong. You even started a thread and said "Jesus is NOT God" while scriptures say otherwise. What then shall be refer your statement of "Jesus is NOT God" to Here is you are saying Jesus is divine......"by mere fact that he was begotten directly by the Spirit of Father GOD and that he now sits exalted above all powers and authority in heaven and earth". NOW, the question is, is this your statement the ONLY basis that scripture says Jesus is divine or that scripture also says Jesus is God

Why is JESUS as the SON of GOD not enough for you people

Peter called him Son of GOD , Paul called him Messiah and Mediator, Nathaniel called him Messiah , Jesus called himself Son of MAN and even demons call him Son of the most High GOD.


Yahweh himself says this is my beloved SON with whom I am well pleased.

Why is this not adequate for Trinitarians ?

You are trying to usurp Yahweh from his throne and place his SON there, what blasphemy !!!

Jesus is not GOD , he is the SON of GOD.

frosbel:

Why is JESUS as the SON of GOD not enough for you people

Peter called him Son of GOD , Paul called him Messiah and Mediator, Nathaniel called him Messiah , Jesus called himself Son of MAN and even demons call him Son of the most High GOD.


Yahweh himself says this is my beloved SON with whom I am well pleased.

Why is this not adequate for Trinitarians ?

You are trying to usurp Yahweh from his throne and place his SON there, what blasphemy !!!

Jesus is not GOD , he is the SON of GOD.

If you are gonna share the revelation of Jesus Christ, you gat to share the whole, not some parts. To mention but few, even Jesus is called the "lamb" of God......we can as well say he had four legs as a lamb......The Father, Yahweh even called Jesus God, you forgot to share that revelation also...........

Goshen360:

If you are gonna share the revelation of Jesus Christ, you gat to share the whole, not some parts. To mention but few, even Jesus is called the "lamb" of God......we can as well say he had four legs as a lamb......The Father, Yahweh even called Jesus God, you forgot to share that revelation also...........

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]

according to you we should translate this to mean :

And again, when God brings GOD into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]

surely this does not make sense to you , no ?

God begetting GOD and then GOD asking his angels to worship himself , lol

finally with reference to Heb 1:8 , God the father is referring to Jesus as a god not as the ultimate Almighty God.

Please try using a lexicon for study.

Jesus did pre-exist b4 is descension to earth...

Like I've always said and also supported by the scripture,Jesus is Gods 1st born.....

he(Jesus) is less than his God and Father but greater than the angels and all humans.....

That's how it is my bro frosbel.......

ijawkid: Jesus did pre-exist b4 is descension to earth...

Like I've always said and also supported by the scripture,Jesus is Gods 1st born.....

he(Jesus) is less than his God and Father but greater than the angels and all humans.....

That's how it is my bro frosbel.......

not so fast brother

Are you saying he was begotten twice , once in eternity and another through a woman ?

Also he ONLY obtained this excellent name because of the major feats he accomplished as a MAN.

"After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs." - Hebrews 1:3b-4

frosbel:

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]

according to you we should translate this to mean :

And again, when God brings GOD into the world, he says,[/b]

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]

surely this does not make sense to you , no /

God begetting GOD and then GOD asking his angels to worship himself , lol

finally with reference to Heb 1:8 , God the father is referring to Jesus as a god not as the ultimate Almighty God.

Please try using a lexicon for study.

And only in Heb. 1:8 Jesus was called God Okay, fine.....if he was "god" in Heb. 1:8, then we can as well say the father is also "god" in John 1:1 according to your logic......... , because in John 1:1, The Word was God......and was "with God". Now, using your logic again, let's rephrase John 1:1 this way,

In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with god and the Word was god. He was in the beginning with god...John 1:1-2, How does this read to your logic

Goshen360:

And only in Heb. 1:8 Jesus was called God Okay, fine.....if he was "god" in Heb. 1:8, then we can as well say the father is also "god" in John 1:1 according to your logic......... , because in John 1:1, The Word was God......and was "with God". Now, using your logic again, let's rephrase John 1:1 this way,

In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with god and the Word was god. He was in the beginning with god...John 1:1-2, How does this read to your logic

I know you are still researching this matter , let me give you another few months to find the truth.

But I advice you use a Lexicon to study the bible , it helps.

frosbel:

I know you are still researching this matter , let me give you another few months to find the truth.

But I advice you use a Lexicon to study the bible , it helps.

Don't tell me you are about to run again o. Today na Friday, please stay with me. I have lexicon at home and have done my research (whatever that means). Now, answer the question,

Goshen360:

And only in Heb. 1:8 Jesus was called God Okay, fine.....if he was "god" in Heb. 1:8, then we can as well say the father is also "god" in John 1:1 according to your logic......... , because in John 1:1, The Word was God......and was "with God". Now, using your logic again, let's rephrase John 1:1 this way,

In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with god and the Word was god. He was in the beginning with god...John 1:1-2, How does this read to your logic

Goshen360:

Don't tell me you are about to run again o. Today na Friday, please stay with me. I have lexicon at home and have done my research (whatever that means). Now, answer the question,

run ? Is this the get out jail free card you borrowed from Enigma , lol.

I am targeting my responses nowadays to avoid repeating myself to the same people on the same topics.

we have over flogged these verses.

If we want to know my perspective, refer to my comments in the over 5 articles raised on the Trinity.

Please leave this article to remain on topic - thank you

frosbel:

run ? Is this the get out jail free card you borrowed from Enigma , lol.

I am targeting my responses nowadays to avoid repeating myself to the same people on the same topics.

we have over flogged these verses.

If we want to know my perspective, refer to my comments in the over 5 articles raised on the Trinity.

Please leave this article to remain on topic - thank you

Okay, make I leaf topic to remain abi......fine. Now, discussing the Pre-existence of Jesus. Another kweshion to you,

1. Do you believe Jesus Pre-existed
2. If you believe He, Jesus Pre-existed, what did Jesus pre-existed AS
3. If you don't believe Jesus Pre-existed, state your reason.

Like I asked in the other thread and since we are dealing from the scriptural standpoint, frosbel, what was jesus talking about in John 8:58?

Reyginus: Like I asked in the other thread and since we are dealing from the scriptural standpoint, frosbel, what was jesus talking about in John 8:58?

In Jewish tradition , before means greater than, Jesus was simply stating he was greater than Abraham.

You can see the clue to your answer in v52.

53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

and Jesus response in v58

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

frosbel:

In Jewish tradition , before means greater than, Jesus was simply stating he was greater than Abraham.

You can see the clue to your answer in v52.

53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

and Jesus response in v58

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

If Jesus was simply stating that He is greater than Abraham, then He wouldn't need to refer to the time of Abraham's birth. All He would have to say is "before Abraham, I am"
By saying "before Abraham was born...." He is clearly referring to a period in time.

I'm afraid your explanation really doesn't make sense here. Think about it.

^^^^Your explanation even makes less sense when you consider that the question Jesus is actually answering in verse 58 is in the preceding verse 57 and not verse 52.
The Jews asked Him: "How can you claim to have seen Abraham when you are not yet fifty years old? The question as you would notice again is not a question of greatness but a question of age.

I'll post the dialogue here.

53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.
56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," they said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
-John 8:53-58 (NIV)

I have arranged them in a question&answer format (black questions and red answers)

This should show us clearly how Jesus answered first the question of whether he was greater than Abraham and next the question of when He began to exist.

hehehehehehehe, I used to think my brother Jo was 'good', until frosb rolled in as a rolling stone.

@frosbel
i think u have to be careful about the articles u read online, how can a person say that jesus only existed as an imagination in the mind of God, it is found nowhere in the bible. I believe from reading the bible that jesus is infact the very direct creation of God as it is comfirmed here in revelation 3:14 and unto the church of the laodiceans write this thing saith the amen the faithful and true witness THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
now ponder upon that.

frosbel:

In Jewish tradition , before means greater than, Jesus was simply stating he was greater than Abraham.

You can see the clue to your answer in v52.

53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

and Jesus response in v58

58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

.
Nice write-up but lacking in coherence.
1. I would like you for the sake of clarity, provide us a link as to the jewish interpretation of the preposition 'before'. And for the purpose of making a progressive arguement, I will just ignore it for now.
2. You neglected the most significant part of the verse that is supposed to expose the weakness of what you think:'born'. This on its own, asserts that christ, was at the instant pointing at the span of his greatness, a time in the past and thus, showing the supremacy of his 'existence' over the yet to be made 'existent'. Your explanation could have been logical if christ left the verb out of his utterance.
3. You also failed to tell us, the function of the phrase 'I am', as used in the context. Except, you are suggesting he gave a reverse speech: 'I am greater than abraham'. That will also fail to tell us the role of 'born' in the sentence. It will be meaningless.
'I am' is simply 'to be' or better still to 'exist as a reality'. We can now succintly rephrase the verse as:
'before abraham came to existence, I've been existing'.
Is that too hard to grasp?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]^^^^Your explanation even makes less sense when you consider that the question Jesus is actually answering in verse 58 is in the preceding verse 57 and not verse 52.

Wrong, v57 is a followup to the question asked in v52

The Jews asked Him: "How can you claim to have seen Abraham when you are not yet fifty years old? The question as you would notice again is not a question of greatness but a question of age.

I'll post the dialogue here.

53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.
56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," they said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
-John 8:53-58 (NIV)

What we have here is a misunderstanding of bible language.

For example how do you read this :

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." - Revelation 13:8

or

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." - Ephesians 1:4


If we take these words literally we begin to erroneously assume that we existed before the creation of the world or that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.

But this is the wrong way to interpret these verse, almost all the OT was prophetic about the coming of JESUS starting from Genesis 3:15 :

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”


The prophetic word of GOD regarding JESUS existed even before Abraham was born, Jesus is greater than Abraham with this in mind, he was before him prophetically speaking , Abraham was not the first born SON of GOD but JESUS was .

Also and very significantly , Jesus derived his existence from GOD directly and therefore was before Abraham, Abraham came from Terah who had beginning of days but Jesus came from God who had no beginning of days.

@frosbel

You jumped the second post on this page.

Boomark: @frosbel

You jumped the second post on this page.

sorry Bro, I will go through it and respond , thanks.

Boomark: Colossians 1:15-17
New International Version (NIV)
The Supremacy of the Son of God

15 The Son is the image of the
invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation. 16 For in him all things
were created: things in heaven and
on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or
rulers or authorities; all things have
been created through him and for
him. 17 He is before all things, and
in him all things hold together.

I believe Jesus existed before He became flesh on earth.

He is the firstborn of all creation. There are other things that were created but He was brought forth first by the Father personally. That is Why He is the only begotten son of God and the first to be created by God.

The angels and so many other things were in existence when He become flesh but v16 made us to understand that all these things that were in existence when He was still in Mary's womb were created through Him and for Him.

v17 says that He is before all thing. Which means He was there when all other things were created.

Please read this Explanation and let me know what you think , I have had a hard day and ready to retire .

Tomorrow or Sunday we can continue to discuss , no hurry

frosbel:

Please read this Explanation and let me know what you think , I have had a hard day and ready to retire .

Tomorrow or Sunday we can continue to discuss , no hurry

why won't you have a hard day? it is hard for anyone to kick against the pr. icks.

frosbel:
Wrong, v57 is a followup to the question asked in v52

What happened to verses 54-56?

frosbel: What we have here is a misunderstanding of bible language.

For example how do you read this :

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." - Revelation 13:8

or

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." - Ephesians 1:4


If we take these words literally we begin to erroneously assume that we existed before the creation of the world or that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.

But this is the wrong way to interpret these verse, almost all the OT was prophetic about the coming of JESUS starting from Genesis 3:15 :

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”


The prophetic word of GOD regarding JESUS existed even before Abraham was born, Jesus is greater than Abraham with this in mind, he was before him prophetically speaking , Abraham was not the first born SON of GOD but JESUS was .

Also and very significantly , Jesus derived his existence from GOD directly and therefore was before Abraham, Abraham came from Terah who had beginning of days but Jesus came from God who had no beginning of days.

Wow frosbel, you amaze me. There is a rule of thumb which I normally use when interpreting scriptures and it is this: "If the literal sense makes sense, seek no other sense".

When you start with your own preconcieved notion of what the bible ought to be, you will force your own interpretations into scripture and trust me you will find scripture that seems to validate your bias. The question here is: At what price?

When I read the bible, I know prophecy when I see it and I know literal speech when I see it. The problem here is that you have started with the premise that Christ did not pre-exist before being born by Mary. It will now make no sense to you when all the verses of scripture are referred to where Christ talks about coming from above and being with the Father, sharing glory with Him, learning from Him, knowing that the father prepares a place for us e.t.c. even the whole notion of the Word becoming flesh falls apart once you deny Christ's pre-existence. This is the price you will have to pay.

In another thread, I was trying to draw you back to the person of Christ and who He is but you ran away. You have started along this line of "anti-trinity" the consequence is that Jesus Christ will become smaller and smaller and God the Father will become further and further away while the Holy Ghost will become progressively more abstract. Eventually God becomes so strange to you that you will deny Him.

You may not know it now but that is where you are headed. Mark my words: That is the price you will eventually pay if you do not repent. I am not interested in winning an argument with you, I am only interested in drawing you back to Him.

Think carefully about it.

Mr_Anony:

In another thread, I was trying to draw you back to the person of Christ and who He is but you ran away. You have started along this line of "anti-trinity" the consequence is that Jesus Christ will become smaller and smaller and God the Father will become further and further away while the Holy Ghost will become progressively more abstract. Eventually God becomes so strange to you that you will deny Him.

You may not know it now but that is where you are headed. Mark my words: That is the price you will eventually pay if you do not repent. I am not interested in winning an argument with you, I am only interested in drawing you back to Him.

Think carefully about it.

So to prevent the bolded from happening, you felt the best thing to do is to bring Them together and give Them equal power abi co-equality? Even though it is found no where in the scriptures.

We are all here to learn. Whether He pre-existed or not. The truth will be known.