bigtt76: Basically what the Americans would want anyone to know. The main koko about the plane itself is yet unknown for security reasons.

Nope not What the Americans whats anybody to know. These are just basic information about an extraodinary piece of technology...By the way did you actually read the whole article? Cos more than once they said what you are repeating right now

Amazing!

Lenny5000:

Nope not What the Americans whats anybody to know. These are just basic information about an extraodinary piece of technology...By the way did you actually read the whole article? Cos more than once they said what you are repeating right now

Did you call that an extra ordinary piece of technology Dear Lord.... open our eyes that we may see

manny4life:

Air force One isn't about the what equipment is used, after all it's a 747-200, one of the earlier models of Boeing, so we know it's not a modern plane one. If you wanna compare the A380, you have to look at the 800 variants. That compare in size and weight to the 380. What makes the Air force One capable than all this aircraft is the military capabilities and customization, 80% of which highly classified.

Thank you very much. The Americans are not talking about luxury here. They are talking of a mobile White house where the U.S President can make the 'last stand' should need be. I'm pretty sure the A380bAirbus doesn't compare to the customized Air Force One.

Omo_Tier1:
747-8I has high technical capability than A380 FYI, -8I is doomed because ASM is poorer than even B777-3ER, orders well below development cost. What is so spectacular about computers accessing servers based on ground using satellite technology That is exactly what the Airforce One does. If it has military capabilities, then it wouldn't need 4 F-16E escorting her during flight.

Yes, Boeing has more technical capability than their counterparts.

How is the ASM poorer than the 777 ext range? On whose calculation was this on? Orders are simply low because for some reason the 787 is a flop and has been having issues lately. For some reason, Boeing can't get it together this time around. As soon as the Dreamliner is fixed and customers have confidence in Boeing, things will fall into place. Besides, I saw the Intercontinental at IAD and it's awesome Lufthansa video, so the project isn't doomed.

Haha, unless if you're the Boeing Aeronautical Engineer who cooperated with Air force Engineers, then please, let's stick to what we know. The Pentagon is the DEFENSE command of the nation and is battle ready to defend the white house, YET, there are fighter jets who fly within the airspace from time to time. Aircraft carriers who carry everything and have triple capabilities than their sea counterparts still has warships escorts and fighter jets as escorts. Even sometimes, depending on locations, have nuclear subs following it...

Even fighter jets provides escorts to themselves in friendly and enemy war zone, hoe much more, POTUS airplane... seriously? Fighter escorts are there to do one TWO things - PROTECT AND SERVE. This does not mean that it cannot defend itself.

Omo_Tier1:
How else can one read that statement?

Unlimited range means on a particular leg. They said the airplane was redone/customized, it means that the airframe could have been likely altered to withstand the stress limits of flight NON STOP probably lasting for days. Anything is possible as long as the security of the president is involved. Engineers can do anything and everything...

In a related news, the Russians under President Putin's government, has began the construction of a modified replica of the American Airforce One, and it will be completed and ready to use by the end of this year.

The giant prokect began during Former President Dmitry's regime, and Putin inspected the project while serving as a Prime Minister.

No doubt the Airforce One is one of the best presidential jets in the world, but we cannot dispute the fact that Russians have an all time technical/technological expertise that may even surpass that of the Americans, if not that Russians are too communist and refuse to open up their technology doors to the world like America.

Let's wait and see how the Russian Air Force One modified would look like by the end of this year. I so much love airforce and jets, one of my discussion hobbies, great thread with nice insights and analysis

OMO_TIER raised an important point about ASM, I think it's important to gather their information here

All formally dressed. White shirts. Business like. No starch. No babariga.

manny4life:


Yes, Boeing has more technical capability than their counterparts.

How is the ASM poorer than the 777 ext range? On whose calculation was this on? Orders are simply low because for some reason the 787 is a flop and has been having issues lately. For some reason, Boeing can't get it together this time around. As soon as the Dreamliner is fixed and customers have confidence in Boeing, things will fall into place. Besides, I saw the Intercontinental at IAD and it's awesome Lufthansa video, so the project isn't doomed.

Haha, unless if you're the Boeing Aeronautical Engineer who cooperated with Air force Engineers, then please, let's stick to what we know. The Pentagon is the DEFENSE command of the nation and is battle ready to defend the white house, YET, there are fighter jets who fly within the airspace from time to time. Aircraft carriers who carry everything and have triple capabilities than their sea counterparts still has warships escorts and fighter jets as escorts. Even sometimes, depending on locations, have nuclear subs following it...

Even fighter jets provides escorts to themselves in friendly and enemy war zone, hoe much more, POTUS airplane... seriously? Fighter escorts are there to do one TWO things - PROTECT AND SERVE. This does not mean that it cannot defend itself.

Take it from me, 747-8I is a doomed project, even though it was meant to be decoy to keep Boeing in the picture of the biggies. Seat per mile cost of the 747-8I is lower or equal to that of a B777-3ER, ( not my words but that of Boeing technical director). 747-8I Seat per mile cost is equal to that of B777-3ER when you opt for the option with additional fuel tank at the HTP to give additional range.

Dreamliner is a technology demonstration which has boxed Boeing to a tight corner! B777X EVO announcement is due for FY13 but with dreamliner still draining the banks rather than swelling it, not one is sure if B77XX EVO launch will finally go ahead by FY13 ending.

Datz dope ;DDatz dope

@Omo Tier1 and manny4life: you guys are so smart! The depth of knowledge displayed by u guys is just amazing.

Anyway, the White House is definitely going to choose a Boeing plane as the new Airforce One. Too much national pride is at stake. And this decision would create more jobs for Americans.

manny4life:

Unlimited range means on a particular leg. They said the airplane was redone/customized, it means that the airframe could have been likely altered to withstand the stress limits of flight NON STOP probably lasting for days. Anything is possible as long as the security of the president is involved. Engineers can do anything and everything...

What is the basic definition of a Range? Simples.... How far you can fly on full tanks and Engine Opti, and norminal routing. So it is completely misleading for anyone to claim the range is unlimited.

@ bold, that is really laughable dude!


Enjoy! http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/279318/

Omo_Tier1:
Take it from me, 747-8I is a doomed project, even though it was meant to be decoy to keep Boeing in the picture of the biggies. Seat per mile cost of the 747-8I is lower or equal to that of a B777-3ER, ( not my words but that of Boeing technical director). 747-8I Seat per mile cost is equal to that of B777-3ER when you opt for the option with additional fuel tank at the HTP to give additional range.

Dreamliner is a technology demonstration which has boxed Boeing to a tight corner! B777X EVO announcement is due for FY13 but with Dreamliner still draining the banks rather than swelling it, not one is sure if B77XX EVO launch will finally go ahead by FY13 ending.

I'm lost how they came about their numbers since ASM is just a calculation simply showing (no of seats x available distance, using max range as a final point). So if I'm getting this correctly, it's not the ASM, but the CASM, right? If the CASM is very low, then it's wonderful, meaning that airlines can be profitable.

A lower Cost per Available Seat Mile is the darling for ALL airlines, perhaps, you misunderstood what the guy is saying. A lower CASM is very important for profitability. So if the CASM is lower than the B777, then it's a welcome development. Adding extra fuel tank to negate for the seats will indeed reduce ASM but if it's extended range, they get to charge more, thus compensating for it. I mean, that's how I view it.

For instance, if you have to eliminate say 5,000lbs (equivalent to 25 pax @ 200) to add fuel tank for extend range, then it makes more sense that the CASM will increase a lil higher for same route, but under different circumstance. In this case, just like ER versions, it will have extra capacity to carry cargo...

Dreamliner is one of it's kind in manufacturing - using almost 30% composites, I was anticipating they have problems but not to these extent. Dreamliner WILL DEFINITELY bounce back, the EVO launch might be postponed till Boeing engineers figure it all out, but they will finally get it together. Boeing has a slight history of flopping and then gaining back full gear when no one even expected.

The Japanese ancient Shinbum is far ahead of Boeing technically, if only they continued on the project and hyped it as much as Boeing...though Boeing remains the best long distance shuttle jet, thanks to the massive tank size that can contain more than enough fuel to go on the longest journey even without frequent touch-down to refuel

Reference:

The air-tankers are KC-35's an aging fleet to be replaced shortly (that battle is raging between Boeing and Airbus). But they typically drop airspeed and thus altitude to between 10 and 20 to engage.

What I would like to know is who is in charge of security once on board, the Secret Service or the Airforce cos I assume once on board all firearms borne by civilians must be under lockdown.

FYI, Airbus North America has pulled out of the KC-35 tanker replacement project. With recent orders for the A330MRTT by the India government with more orders to follow next year by Asian government, airbus sees a bigger fat elsewhere!

manny4life:

I'm lost how they came about their numbers since ASM is just a calculation simply showing (no of seats x available distance, using max range as a final point). So if I'm getting this correctly, it's not the ASM, but the CASM, right? If the CASM is very low, then it's wonderful, meaning that airlines can be profitable.

A lower Cost per Available Seat Mile is the darling for ALL airlines, perhaps, you misunderstood what the guy is saying. A lower CASM is very important for profitability. So if the CASM is lower than the B777, then it's a welcome development. Adding extra fuel tank to negate for the seats will indeed reduce ASM but if it's extended range, they get to charge more, thus compensating for it. I mean, that's how I view it.

For instance, if you have to eliminate say 5,000lbs (equivalent to 25 pax @ 200) to add fuel tank for extend range, then it makes more sense that the CASM will increase a lil higher for same route, but under different circumstance. In this case, just like ER versions, it will have extra capacity to carry cargo...

Dreamliner is one of it's kind in manufacturing - using almost 30% composites, I was anticipating they have problems but not to these extent. Dreamliner WILL DEFINITELY bounce back, the EVO launch might be postponed till Boeing engineers figure it all out, but they will finally get it together. Boeing has a slight history of flopping and then gaining back full gear when no one even expected.

I love your criticism/analysis, so on point.

Omo_Tier1:
What is the basic definition of a Range? Simples.... How far you can fly on full tanks and Engine Opti, and norminal routing. So it is completely misleading for anyone to claim the range is unlimited.

@ bold, that is really laughable dude!


Enjoy! http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/279318/

Range is simply how far a aircraft carrier can travel based upon it's Airframe and Power Plant limits. Unlimited may be an inappropriate word, but I was letting you know that perhaps, they indeed altered the limits making it endure further.

Your link is explaining more about load factors, fuel burn as well as other factors. That the 380 is a lil fuel efficient to the 400 series that has been way out before 380 came into existence is just laughable. Let the 800I come online first, then we shall see how the 380 fairs on the same market.

This is simply awesome!

Omo_Tier1:
FYI, Airbus North America has pulled out of the KC-35 tanker replacement project. With recent orders for the A330MRRT by the India government with more orders to follow next year by Asian government, airbus sees a bigger fat elsewhere!

That they pulled out of the contract doesn't mean the Boeing isn't in pursuit elsewhere. They just exited the market perhaps, they aren't competing enough... This isn't about DOD but two companies - Boeing and Airbus. One reason why Defense companies cannot actively participate in foreign sells( with exception to allied nations like Israel), because under the Defense Authorization Act of Congress (if I'm correct, may be wrong though), U.S. Defense companies like Lockheed, Boeing et al cannot participate in the sales of technology to other nations. As it is now, their lobbyist are trying to push congress to ratify that act. As soon as it's a go, U.S. companies can transfer technology to other combat nations.

DailyNews: I love your criticism/analysis, so on point.

Thx man. I like the way OMO brings up good points, he takes me back to my years when I was so enthusiastic about aviation...

A healthy argument is very good for the mind, it keeps u to your toes and you learn from other as well...

solomon111: Who cares?
Americans are always looking for any opportunity to brag.
Cool plane,though.

You call this showing off?!?!?

solomon111: Who cares?
Americans are always looking for any opportunity to brag.
Cool plane,though.

You call this showing off?!?!?

manny4life:

I'm lost how they came about their numbers since ASM is just a calculation simply showing (no of seats x available distance, using max range as a final point). So if I'm getting this correctly, it's not the ASM, but the CASM, right? If the CASM is very low, then it's wonderful, meaning that airlines can be profitable.

A lower Cost per Available Seat Mile is the darling for ALL airlines, perhaps, you misunderstood what the guy is saying. A lower CASM is very important for profitability. So if the CASM is lower than the B777, then it's a welcome development. Adding extra fuel tank to negate for the seats will indeed reduce ASM but if it's extended range, they get to charge more, thus compensating for it. I mean, that's how I view it.

For instance, if you have to eliminate say 5,000lbs (equivalent to 25 pax @ 200) to add fuel tank for extend range, then it makes more sense that the CASM will increase a lil higher for same route, but under different circumstance. In this case, just like ER versions, it will have extra capacity to carry cargo...

Dreamliner is one of it's kind in manufacturing - using almost 30% composites, I was anticipating they have problems but not to these extent. Dreamliner WILL DEFINITELY bounce back, the EVO launch might be postponed till Boeing engineers figure it all out, but they will finally get it together. Boeing has a slight history of flopping and then gaining back full gear when no one even expected.

CASM makes more sense when you are looking at routing and the number of aircraft in your fleet. Your ASM has a huge impact on your CASM. If you think of it this way, how far I can fly is a function of the weight I carry + Fuel + OWE. So to fly further, I do not have much influence over Fuel, OWE hence I would have to play around with my additional weight which often come in form of passengers, luggage. Look at the seats available to both A380 and B747-8I and the range of both aircraft. Typical A380 is 555 config, and B747-8I is 467 similar range of 3,400km vs 3,500km. Which shows A380 carrying more passengers + cargo at same range as B747-8I, now I leave you to figure the rest out when you juggle things around to get similar configure on both Aircraft and what that means to your ASM.

As for the dreamliner, Airbus has more than two killers for the B787, A330 EVO, A350-900, A350-1000. A330-3/340-2 is a proven, highly reliable aircraft that continue to see her order books swell despite the 787 EIS.

CFCfan: @Omo Tier1 and manny4life: you guys are so smart! The depth of knowledge displayed by u guys is just amazing.

Anyway, the White House is definitely going to choose a Boeing plane as the new Airforce One. Too much national pride is at stake. And this decision would create more jobs for Americans.

Bros, thank you. I respect Omo (forgive me o becos I shortened your name) opinion, he's very good. I will love to debate him in real life when it comes to aviation.

Like I heard, Congress in the near future has asked Boeing to draw up replacement plans for the current airplanes now because they're nearing their life span. It's obvious they have to go with Boeing (a US company), keep the reserve back home. I know that the replacement bill is before congress now.

The 747-8 would be a game changer for the new Nigerian national carrier, due to it's passenger capacity and range.

manny4life:

Range is simply how far a aircraft carrier can travel based upon it's Airframe and Power Plant limits. Unlimited may be an inappropriate word, but I was letting you know that perhaps, they indeed altered the limits making it endure further.

Your link is explaining more about load factors, fuel burn as well as other factors. That the 380 is a lil fuel efficient to the 400 series that has been way out before 380 came into existence is just laughable. Let the 800I come online first, then we shall see how the 380 fairs on the same market.

No Sir! Range has nothing to do with Airframe and Power Plants. Airframes are designed typically in fatigue for 19,000FC and Power Plants in Engine Hours typically specified by the Airframer. An engine will run and run so long as tyou feed it will air and fuel. An airframe will fly for how long you anticipate using the aircraft for.

Aircraft fatigue is a function of your mission which could be Short, Medium, Long and Maximum Ramp mission. Range is a function of how much fuel you'ved got to burn which is related to how much weight you are carrying. Fly heavier, burn lot of fuel to produce the 1lb of thrust required. Remember the Breguet Range equation ? Read a few here : http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/SPRING/propulsion/notes/node98.html

manny4life:

Bros, thank you. I respect Omo (forgive me o becos I shortened your name) opinion, he's very good. I will love to debate him in real life when it comes to aviation.

Like I heard, Congress in the near future has asked Boeing to draw up replacement plans for the current airplanes now because they're nearing their life span. It's obvious they have to go with Boeing (a US company), keep the reserve back home. I know that the replacement bill is before congress now.

FYI, Airbus now has an assembly line in Mobile, Alabama and by 2016 will start rolling out the sweet bird A320 Neo with Sharklet See one of the sexies... so if EADS wants to bid for Airforce one replacement, the will give Boeing a run for their money. Mind you, four of the presidential fleet of Helicopters is being designed by AugustaWestland, so that tells you American government can play the politics where it matters..

manny4life:

That they pulled out of the contract doesn't mean the Boeing isn't in pursuit elsewhere. They just exited the market perhaps, they aren't competing enough... This isn't about DOD but two companies - Boeing and Airbus. One reason why Defense companies cannot actively participate in foreign sells( with exception to allied nations like Israel), because under the Defense Authorization Act of Congress (if I'm correct, may be wrong though), U.S. Defense companies like Lockheed, Boeing et al cannot participate in the sales of technology to other nations. As it is now, their lobbyist are trying to push congress to ratify that act. As soon as it's a go, U.S. companies can transfer technology to other combat nations.

EADS pulled the plug on hybrid A330MRTT for the USAF because the risk was too high! Now that other markets are opening up as there is barely any modern air tanker and supplier comparable to the A330MRTT, EADS sees her risk much lower venturing into places like Malaysia, India.

FYI, Boeing's aircraft did not match up to the A330MRTT Airbus option and even Boeing's US rivals made it clear to the congress but Boeing as usual play the jobs politics whenever they can't compete.

Its not as special as redeem1 or winners 1, I overhead tunde bakare orderin d airforce 1 sef

for such information, i never have and might never regret joining NAIRALAND

Hope this are not cursing problem for all the clueless african leaders, cos very soo
n nothing will be on there agenda than to add 1 to their flight of already purchased private jet.
More trouble for african leaders