Dr Rowan Williams told Radio 4's World at One that the UK has to "face up to the fact" that some of its citizens do not relate to the British legal system.

Dr Williams argues that adopting parts of Islamic Sharia law would help maintain social cohesion.

For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court.

He says Muslims should not have to choose between "the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty".
In an exclusive interview with BBC correspondent Christopher Landau, ahead of a lecture to lawyers in London on Monday, Dr Williams argues this relies on Sharia law being better understood.

At the moment, he says "sensational reporting of opinion polls" clouds the issue.
He stresses that "nobody in their right mind would want to see in this country the kind of inhumanity that's sometimes been associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states; the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well".

But Dr Williams said an approach to law which simply said "there's one law for everybody and that's all there is to be said, and anything else that commands your loyalty or allegiance is completely irrelevant in the processes of the courts - I think that's a bit of a danger".

"There's a place for finding what would be a constructive accommodation with some aspects of Muslim law, as we already do with some other aspects of religious law."

'Other loyalties'

Dr Williams added: "What we don't want either, is I think, a stand-off, where the law squares up to people's religious consciences."
"We don't either want a situation where, because there's no way of legally monitoring what communities do, people do what they like in private in such a way that that becomes another way of intensifying oppression inside a community."

The issue of whether Catholic adoption agencies would be forced to accept gay parents under equality laws showed the potential for legal confusion, he said.

"That principle that there is only one law for everybody is an important pillar of our social identity as a western democracy," he said.

"But I think it is a misunderstanding to suppose that means people don't have other affiliations, other loyalties which shape and dictate how they behave in society and that the law needs to take some account of that."

'Custom and community'

Dr Williams noted that Orthodox Jewish courts already operated, and that the law accommodated the anti-abortion views of some Christians.

"The whole idea that there are perfectly proper ways the law of the land pays respect to custom and community, that's already there," he said.

People may legally devise their own way to settle a dispute in front of an agreed third party as long as both sides agree to the process.

Muslim Sharia courts and the Jewish Beth Din which already exist in the UK come into this category.

The country's main Beth Din at Finchley in north London oversees a wide range of cases including divorce settlements, contractual rows between traders and tenancy disputes.

Dr Williams's comments are likely to fuel the debate over multiculturalism in the UK.

Last month, the Bishop of Rochester, the Right Reverend Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, said some places in the UK were no-go areas for non-Muslims.

Dr Williams said it was "not at all the case that we have absolute social exclusion".

Source

ArchBishop Rowan Williams is a perfidious vermin.The sooner that weasel leaves from his post,the better.

There have been calls for the glib idiot to resign but there are few means of forcefully removing the man.Let's hope he comes to his senses,whatever may be left of it,and tenders his resignation ASAP.

pahtahkee:

Dr Rowan Williams told Radio 4's World at One that the UK has to "face up to the fact" that some of its citizens do not relate to the British legal system.

Isnt it surprising that those "citizens" all happen to be m uslims? So what happens if hausas do not relate to the Nigerian legal system? we create a special one for them?

pahtahkee:

Dr Williams argues that adopting parts of Islamic Sharia law would help maintain social cohesion.

the kind of "social cohesion" we see in afghanistan and Iran?

pahtahkee:

For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court.

or they could choose to go settle those disputes in Pakistan.

pahtahkee:

He says Muslims should not have to choose between "the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty".

no they shldnt. I'm just wondering why so many of them are so desperate to emigrate to these "stark alternatives of cultureal loyalty".

pahtahkee:

He stresses that "nobody in their right mind would want to see in this country the kind of inhumanity that's sometimes been associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states; the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well".

but sir williams . . . you cant divore those "extreme punishments" from sharia law.

pahtahkee:

But Dr Williams said an approach to law which simply said "there's one law for everybody and that's all there is to be said, and anything else that commands your loyalty or allegiance is completely irrelevant in the processes of the courts - I think that's a bit of a danger".

England has survived for centuries on just "one law for everybody" mr rowan. There has been no danger.

pahtahkee:

"There's a place for finding what would be a constructive accommodation with some aspects of Muslim law, as we already do with some other aspects of religious law."

no you dont. Is the 10 commandments part of British laws?

pahtahkee:

Dr Williams added: "What we don't want either, is I think, a stand-off, where the law squares up to people's religious consciences."

what we really dont want is when a minority decide to force their religious preferences down the throats of others.

pahtahkee:

"We don't either want a situation where, because there's no way of legally monitoring what communities do, people do what they like in private in such a way that that becomes another way of intensifying oppression inside a community."

that's why you have the law.

pahtahkee:

But I think it is a misunderstanding to suppose that means people don't have other affiliations, other loyalties which shape and dictate how they behave in society and that the law needs to take some account of that."

Why did they emigrate to Britain then if they had other affiliations?

pahtahkee:

Dr Williams noted that Orthodox Jewish courts already operated, and that the law accommodated the anti-abortion views of some Christians.

the legalisation of abortion is relatively a new concept in all countries of the world, christian or not. Abortion is not treated as a religious issue but as a moral issue in most countries.

pahtahkee:

Dr Williams said it was "not at all the case that we have absolute social exclusion".

at this rate it wont be long before u have absolute social exclusion. Allowing sharia law would just be the begining.

Dr Williams noted that Orthodox Jewish courts already operated, and that the law accommodated the anti-abortion views of some Christians.

I wonder where the vermin saw this unheard of 'accomodation' .All I know is that as someone said,"His Grace is a disgrace".

This is an Anglican Archbishop who keeps equivocating about his faith-he even suggested to his congregation that Homer and Marge Simpson are exemplary parents!

If only the Queen can "have a word" with this senile poltroon,we will be rid of his emetic proposals and he can return to the splendid obscurity he once occupied

I find this development troubling especially when the Islamic nation of Saudi Arabia does not allow non-mus.lims into Mecca.

The concept of reciprocity should apply here. It would be foolish for the UK to give accommodation to Islamic Sharia, when the home of Is.lam does not welcome Christians.

@RichyBlack

The proposal doesn't have the slightest chance of seeing the light of day.However,my gripe is with that nauseating ArchBishop who needs to be sectioned.

Beyond that,his proposal exposes a growing tendency in the West-motivated by cowardice-to kowtow to Muslim perceived wishes even where Muslims aren't making any particular demands.

Whether this is reflected in banning certain toys or children's stories,it reveals a disturbing trend towards appeasement that does neither the West nor Muslims any favors.

I listened to his socalled lecture delivery to Islamic lawyers and scholars, I find it totally appaling to any intellectual.


Just in the UK tabloids yesterday, was how a teenager was freed under an Islamic community in the UK, found engaging in knifing a fellow human being. Barbaric nuisance at its best in the UK.

4 Play:

Beyond that,his proposal exposes a growing tendency in the West-motivated by cowardice-to kowtow to Muslim perceived wishes even where Muslims aren't making any particular demands.

Whether this is reflected in banning certain toys or children's stories,it reveals a disturbing trend towards appeasement that does neither the West nor Muslims any favors.

this is the real problem and the earlier we begin to address it the better for our collective survival. It is the same trend that has suddenly begun to rear its head even here on a supposedly benign internet forum. We can no longer type the word "Muslim".

Extract from a Nigerian Anglican Bishop's response:

", once you ask for the first step of Sharia law you are going to get to the last of it. By 1960 when Nigeria got Independence, it began as penal code. Once it came to this generation they upgraded it to full blown Sharia. So it is only a matter of time when you begin from somewhere that you get to the real thing."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN4lqnJjlvw

Sharia Law(kind of) in Texas : [url]http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/191148.php

[/url]

4 Play:

Beyond that,his proposal exposes a growing tendency in the West-motivated by cowardice-to kowtow to Muslim perceived wishes even where Muslims aren't making any particular demands.

you see why i like george bush .  he pushes his decisions in the middle east. pro israel, pro-US, pro-oil and gives no bloody damn what those motherfucking bloody sonofabitches from mecca would say.

the british are yet to realise that they can never appease the followers of allah. infact, with their hurried run-away from basra, they have established themselves in the mind of the followers of allah as a bunch of weak scared arse-h-les. now this.

anyway, what do you expect from a clergy who was appointed by the prime minister. it's more of a political office than a religious one.

now i'm ready for the ban

what is happening in this thread? i cant type M.U.S.L.I.M wetin?

otele:

you see why i like george bush .  he pushes his decisions in the middle east. pro israel, pro-US, pro-oil and gives no bloody damn what those motherfucking bloody sonofabitches from mecca would say.

I agree that Bush is less prone to "nuanced" commentary but even he mouths  The Is.lam is peaceful twaddle

I guess the demands of real-politik entails this.Williams has become a recidivist purveryor of politically correct pap concerning Isl.am .He is, on an entirely absurd level

4Him:

We can no longer type the word "Muslim".

Really? Every time I typed "Is.lam" properly,it came out as " the great religion"  That is why I put a punctuation mark in between

M.uslim comes out as "the great ones" every time i typed it correctly.

Strict sharia in UK? I can't wait.

H.R.M, the Queen of England would certainly look wonderful in a bukka

Islam
moslim

I just tried it and found you cant type mu.s. lim and is.lamb here.

Seun, if na joke stop am o

Lets get this straight. Britain can go to any country and establish a judicial system alien to the locals, but we can't do the same. Free your mind from mental slavery and you will agree the m.uslims (Asians) who drives the UK economy deserve better than to follow a judicial system that is biased towards blacks and Asians. I don't agree with Sharia laws but a change is needed in the biased British legal system. Please do your research and tell me how many Black and Asian people are kept in prison for no other reason than they are black.

Tornadaz its comments like yours that breed fire to racism. If no one likes the UK P I S S off back to your native country.

It is wrong to make laws that will only benefit one race. Thats why slavery came about people thinking that one race was superior to another.

Which law is baised towards blacks and Asians

@LadyT
What make's you think I reside in the UK? For your information I run a business in Nigeria and would not go to the UK to do odd jobs, thank you. Is poor "cleaners" like you who give Nigeria a bad name.

Awwwwwww I never knew I was a cleaner. Since you dont live in the UK you are even more foolish to comment on what you dont know!

Of course I know what am talking about. Unlike you, I go to the UK and the US to shop and not to live as second class citizen. Kpele o.

Oh God save us I suggest you stop replying because you are sounding more and more stupid. You go shopping in the US and UK who are you trying to impress

Its people like YOU who give Nigerians bad names you are all talk and no sense.

Me trying to impress you? You wish. My dear please look somewhere else am taken.

@ Tornadoz

I'm surprised you say you run a business cos it would be expected that someone who runs a business would have enough sense not to make some of the silly comments you just made.

1) Nigerians taking odd jobs as cleaners and the sort give Nigeria a bad name?! that's one of the dumbest things i ever read! firstly if Nigeria was suitable enough for people they would not come to another mans country to do such jobs, anyway what happened to dignity in labour? aren't there cleaners in Nigeria? what's the problem with them doing it here in the U.K? They have a job that doesn't involve them doing illegal activities.

2) for your info it's not cleaners and menial labourers that give Nigeria a bad name, it's the fraudsters and corrupt Nigerians generally that give Nigeria a bad name. I mean Nigerians who act like they are above board but so happen to be some of the most uncivilised creatures God himself must be ashamed of, and do i need to make it clear to you that you are bordering that group with your very uneducated comments.

3) who cares if you come to the UK or the US to shop? that's just silly making that an argumentative point, nothing wrong with arguing a subject but please keep it Sane and educated.

4) you coming to the UK doesn't mean you know UK law, I've been here for years now and i still don't get the whole of it, there are people who were born here and still don't get it all.

5) It's about time we stop saying we are imprisoned cos we are blacks, if a man's mentality affects his being then obviously a race's mentality affects it collectively. Yes blacks are mistreated and wrongfully placed in society but how can we present a proper case when we already have a defensive mechanism around us as if the whole world wants to enslave us again!!!

E gba mi o!!!

Tornadoz Stop fooling yourself and talk sense!

You are the one boasting about where you go to shop.  Do you think anyone cares?  Where your money ends someones elses starts.  

Lets talk sense.  
No one has the right to come to Nigeria and say because they have Hindus living we need a national Devali.  Let every country rule itself.  Lets stop this nonesense.
M.uslims do what they want in their own country and no other religion has a say.  I suggest anyone wanting Sharia move to one of these states.

Tornadoz:

Lets get this straight. Britain can go to any country and establish a judicial system alien to the locals, but we can't do the same.

Unless you are in the majority or possess superior military power its impossible to go to Britain and force your own judicial system down their throats.

Tornadoz:

Free your mind from mental slavery and you will agree the m.uslims (Asians) who drives the UK economy

these same m.uslims who cant drive their own indigenous economies? Face it . . . we like to decieve ourselves that we foreigners are the ones driving European and American economies . . . that is false. These where already thriving economies, we simply came in and took advantage of the opportunities that are non-existent in our own nations.

Tornadoz:

deserve better than to follow a judicial system that is biased towards blacks and Asians.

1. if these people deserve better why dont they implement these judicial system in their own countries first and lets see how effective it is.
2. Nigeria (blacks) and India (asians) to mention but a few all adopted the British judicial system . . . are these laws biased towards blacks and asians?

Tornadoz:

I don't agree with Sharia laws but a change is needed in the biased British legal system.

you dont agree with sharia but think a change is needed in the "biased" british legal system . . . what change?

Tornadoz:

Please do your research and tell me how many Black and Asian people are kept in prison for no other reason than they are black.

how many pple are in nigerian jails for decades without trial? Start ur research from there.

@ 4Him

thank you ooo, help me school the plonker!!!

1) i was going to make mention of the thousands or possibly millions of peeps in Nigerian prisons and have been there for loads of years, nevermind all the ones who died in there awaiting trial and the ones who will still die in the inhumane condition, God help them all.

2) i guess he didn't hear about the Asian, Sri lankan to be exact. who was in remand for 50 years in his home country without trial only to be found innocent after he was eventually remembered! he's 80 now, had more than half his year spent in an Asian prison, under his own country's judicial sytem! abi was it Britain that went there to corrupt the judicial process there?

Aren't there Jewish courts called Beth Din in the UK?.
So what's the difference?
Please educate me

oldie:

Aren't there Jewish courts called Beth Din in the UK?.
So what's the difference?
Please educate me

classical illogical argument. The jews have a court so automatically m.uslims must have one too. While we are at it why not grant the hindus, sikhs, christians, athiests there own courts too.
You don't solve a problem by making it worse.

oldie:

Aren't there Jewish courts called Beth Din in the UK?.
So what's the difference?
Please educate me

Beth Din has no formal recognition under UK law.It is no more than Mu.slims settling disputes through their Imams.