Brokay2908:
My question was not about whether there is more than one fulfilment or not, neither is it about whether blood and fire accompanied it or not, but that if Peter rightly make reference to that statement, what will disqualify our own time now as part of the last days that is supposed to witness the manifestation of the spirit.

I'm not sure that any answer I give you will make a difference seeing how you have pretty much rejected everything I have said for no reason more apparent to me than that it is not what you yourself have said.

The point in my answer was that given that even then when Peter was speaking, Joel was only partially fulfilled, the Scriptures invite us to expect that there was something not usual about the Pentecost. The signs that followed the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at that time occurred for a reason. Once that reason was fulfilled, they were ceased for a while. At the completion of the prophecy of Joel, the signs will be given again. Besides, the gift of speaking miraculously in foreign tongues was not even mentioned in Joel and yet that is where you have hinged upon to insist that such gifts are active today.

Of course, I don't believe that speaking in tongues was not part of the context of eschatological prophecy that comprised Joel and other prophets. It certainly was. My point is merely that you won't hear anything unless it agrees with you. Your questions have not really been to hear what I have to say but to "trap me in a fault" to feel that you were right all along. In fact your words in the rest of your post here go to that effect.

I am sorry that you don't believe me but it is not something strange in the Church today. So, I can only do my best to answer your questions and ensure that you have accurate information on the Truth in order to make any adjustments in your life that may be necessary, should you choose to, that is.

So, again, Peter's and the other believers' experiences of those days were not to continue because the Age changed. We came into the Age of the Church when the Lord brought Gentiles in a flood into the Church. So, the promises meant for Israel as a nation were truncated as a new era that required a different means of dispensing God's Truth began. The New Testament was written and thus we the Church were given an absolute and completely reliable guide on how we must live until the Return Of The Lord.

The existence of the New Testament therefore is why there is no "manifestation of the Spirit" for us today. Of course, for the Church everyday, if you have eyes at all, you will see the Spirit manifest in myriad ways in your life. But given that it is only the sign-gifts that constitute such manifestation for you, it is understandable that you feel bereft without them.

Brokay2908:
Talking of ratifying authority. Do those that proclaim the gospel now have no authority to be ratified? Didn't Jesus give them the authority? Jesus said the signs will follow those that believe, not just the Apostles alone, or is the great commission limited to them alone?

Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I believe that I already answered this sufficiently. I would only be repeating myself if I answered it again. I think the only new thing here is the passage from Mark which is very commonly known to be in question as to its authenticity. A lot of Bibles indicate that everything after verse 8 in Mark 16 is not in the best manuscripts of the Bible. In other words, it is highly unlikely that you just quoted Scripture.

Brokay2908:
"We walk by faith not by sight..."Are the manifestations of the spirit not also meant to produce faith, especially for the unbelievers?

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Are the workings of the spirit not a product of faith? Is it not by faith that the gifts of the spirit are operated?

Again, the New Testament exists now. And Faith, according to the New Testament, comes by hearing the Word of Christ (Romans 10:17), not by seeing miracles or by performing them. This too is the gist of Hebrews 1:1-2 as I have said before.

Brokay2908:
On 1 Corinthians 13:
Yes you yourself can see the obvious. You can see it all over the chapter even right from the last verse of chapter 12 up to the very conclusion in the last verse of chapter 13. But you show me where in that chapte, the completion of canon scriptures is referred to as that complete thing. And if it is not in that chapter, show me where it is elsewhere in the Bible.

You couldn't even provide references to support your claim that workings of the spirit will be seized in between the establishment of the church and tribulation. You are deliberately putting in what the Bible is not saying and overriding the obvious truth with your assumptions; interpreting the Bible just to support your unfounded doctrine.

As I said, you weren't ever really interested in what I had to say, were you? You only needed to convince yourself that you were right by trying to find something wrong with my arguments. I understand that we should take care to avoid false teachers but my arguments have been pretty straightforward. If I am deliberately putting in what the Bible is not saying, what of your own deliberate ignorance of what it is saying? You are the one making this much fuss of 1 Corinthians 13 even though verse 8 clearly says that tongues and prophecy and "knowledge" will all end somehow and their end is connected with the arrival of something perfect. Even if you don't agree that the "something perfect" here is the complete Canon of the Bible, what else have you proposed it to be except for Love? Well, love is here, is it not? Why then are you accusing me of putting things in the Bible that are not there?

1 Corinthians 12 - 14 was written to warn the Corinthians that the Body exists to edify or build itself up, not for show and competition. It is right there as you say. The more excellent way is love. We should seek the best gifts so that we can build each other up, Paul says. How is the Church built up? Is it not in the Truth? Is that not what we grow up in? Where is the Truth? Is it not in the Bible? Where did the Bible come from? Is it not from specially commissioned men who wrote what the Spirit specially revealed to them? How would anybody know to trust such men? Is it not through signs and wonders that only men who have God's Authority could do? Why then would we still be needing signs and wonders when God's Counsel has been fully declared? Is it not sufficient now to turn to the Word of God to know whether anybody claiming to be speaking for God is really speaking for Him? Do we not trust the Bible to have all the guidance that God has provided so that we can live our most productive lives for Him now? If we don't, how can we trust anything else to truly be God's guidance for us? How can we be sure that a dream or a vision or anything miracle is not a work of the enemy to deceive us?

The Bible is the only safe way to live today and rather than be children like the Corinthians and insist on fireworks and lots of noise which serve no useful purpose anymore, should we not rather commit ourselves to growing in the Truth and helping one another do the same?

Brokay2908:
I think I don't need to go further anymore. I'm done with the discussion. The truth is there for all to see, as many as desired to see and the evidence too abounds.

I understand. I do hope and pray that you will look at things again with less compromised eyes and see the Truth. There is no reason why anyone would not want the miraculous. I certainly do. And it is why I appreciate every day of my life. I see the Lord do things that I have no other way of explaining except the miraculous. And I certainly look forward to the Millennium and to Eternity. But I will not let a hunger for signs and wonders to blind me to what the Bible actually says.

Brokay2908:
To all these I will only say that we may try as we may to rationalize and evaluate from the human perspective, what is possible or not but that will not take us anywhere. Remove the power and grace of God from the equation, and Christianity becomes as dead as any other religion. But with God, all things are possible. Done with the conversation. Have a nice time.

Indeed I agree that with God all things are possible. That is why we must strive to walk in sanctification confident in the ability of the Lord to change our bodies of sin into bodies of perfect righteousness so that we can live freely before Him without concern that we might fail Him again.

lightwhite:
Thanks sir, I've sent you a message.

Good to hear back from you. I will answer your email shortly.

Pasqual:
Was Ananias also an Apostle? Why did God tell him (in a vision) to send to Peter? Acts 10.. These things are rights or special privileges of children of God.

And it shall come to pass afterwards that I will pour My Spirit upon all flesh, (Apostles and Prophets or church leaders alone right?); and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My Spirit.. Joel 2vs28,29.. Read Acts 2vs17,18..

See!! These privileges are exclusively reserved for God's children and if you ain't 1, you might doubt. You musn't be a prophet or apostle before you get these visions..

Stephen was a deacon (just a worker in the church who served tables) but when he was being martyred; his eyes opened and he saw Jesus in Heaven standing on the right hand of God (Acts 7vs56)

What about another Deacon in the person of Philip? He was miraculously teleported from the Ethiopian Eunuch because he was a son.. Today we are still sons and we have these privileges.

If God can't give us these i.e. God limits His manifestations in our time then He will also limit His demands of Holiness and Righteousness because He is the one that makes it possible..

Our only problem is that we want to use our natural knowledge to understand Spiritual things. These things don't work like that.. Happy Sunday and have a refreshing time in the presence of the ALMIGHTY..

Good morning

WELL SAID.

Your explanations of the Bible marvels me.. Lemme clarify you on these two areas:
1. God's voice. Jesus said my sheep HEARS MY VOICE AND FOLLOWS ME. Apostle Paul also said as many as are led by The SPIRIT of GOD are the sons of God.

2. Perfection: So you mean God is mature and as such, we need to get matured? Perfection here means sinlessness.. Check out these passages:
Romans 8vs1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Galatians 5vs17. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
I John 3vs9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him and he CANNOT SIN BECAUSE he IS BORN OF GOD.
I John 5vs18. And we know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Maybe the reason why you don't believe God still speak is because you haven't been spoken to before by him which is a clear-evidence that you ain't part of His sheep because that's a confirmation that you are His.

The passages that I gave for perfection are self explanatory so let me explain I John 1vs8-10.

Vs 8: Anyone who claims he has no sin deceives himself and the truth is not in him. When the gospel is presented to you (at this point you've never experience calvary) and you claim you have no sin, you deceive yourself because the sin of Adam made us all sinners and you must have by omission or commission committed a particular sin in the past.

Vs9: if you confess your sin, He is faithful and just to forgive your sins and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. At this point you've come to calvary, no matter how filthy you are, no matter how moral you've been, no matter how long you've been a sinner or how many sins you've committed, He will cleanse your sin if only you'll come to the cross. Isaiah 1vs18 confirms that.

Vs10: If you say you have not sinned, you make him a liar and his word is not in you. Here, after you have been cleansed, if you begin to claim as if you never sinned in your life before you met God at the cross of calvary; then you make him a liar and his truth is not in you because HE in HIS WORD said all have #sinned (past tense) and come short of the glory of God.

Brother, Apostle Paul said a veil covered the eyes of the children of Israel when the old testament was read to them. Even the disciples at a point did not know the (meaning) scriptures John 20vs9 until Christ opened their understanding in Luke 24vs45 so its not something you argue. If you don't understand seek advice and the best person to get it from is God. (I am not claiming to know but your ignorant points are making me to tell you what I feel. That's me. I am frank with my words). Its not too late to visit calvary and get start this perfection journey. The earlier the better. After that you can ask him to teach you the scriptures and you'll practically know whether HE still speaks to men..

I am out of this discussion sir. I am grateful for the time we spent here to sharpen each other.. We can still discus other issues here nut not this anymore..

GOD BLESS YOU ALL

@ ihedinobi2

Pasqual:
Your explanations of the Bible marvels me..

That is understandable. Not very much of what I currently know and teach is common knowledge in churches today.

Pasqual:
Lemme clarify you on these two areas:
1. God's voice. Jesus said my sheep HEARS MY VOICE AND FOLLOWS ME. Apostle Paul also said as many as are led by The SPIRIT of GOD are the sons of God.

I am not sure what your point here is. I already quoted Hebrews 1:1-2 in this discussion and that passage certainly agrees with the above. But I think that you mean something different.

If you are anything like I was not too long ago, you probably believe that because we are Jesus's sheep, we will automatically know "His Voice" in supernatural manifestations. So, for example, if we have a dream or a vision, we can be sure that if it is a divine communication, we will automatically know it because the Lord Jesus says that we will know His Voice and never follow strangers.

But that is quite wrong. Life in this world is about free will (Matthew 16:24). We CHOOSE to believe in the Lord Jesus. We CHOOSE to follow Him moment by moment, day by day everywhere after. In other words, the Lord Jesus never meant that we will have no choice but to follow His Voice and never listen to strangers. No. What He meant is that those who truly are His Sheep, who choose to follow Him will be known by their deliberate choice to follow His Voice and avoid the seductions of a stranger.

That means that we will never be in a position where we will "just know" that it is the Lord unless we deliberately take the trouble of learning to know Who the Lord is so that we can tell when the voice we are hearing is His and when it is not (Matthew 11:29).

That immediately brings us back to how to know His Voice. For that, we have Hebrews 1:1-2, 2 Peter 1:19, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 among a vast multitude of Scriptures.

It is only in the Scriptures that we learn to know and that we hear the Voice of our very dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ today. Outside of the Scriptures are the voices of the stranger and seducing spirits.

As for the Holy Spirit, our Lord Jesus said

John 16:13-14 NASB
[13]But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
[14]He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Note carefully the parts in bold:

>> the Holy Spirit works with the Truth, all the Truth.

>> the Holy Spirit takes from the Truth in order to help us by disclosing it to us.

For the apostles and the believers of the first generation, the work of the Holy Spirit was to show them new revelations of God that were not in the Old Testament. That was necessary so that the New Testament could be written. For us today, He takes from the Bible to remind us and explain to us what we need to know and live by.

If we are not reading the Bible, even if He took from it and revealed directly what is in it to us, how are we to know that it is really Him talking to us and not the devil attempting to seduce us? Beside that, He does not do that because it is our responsibility to actually seek to know what the Bible says. What He does is help us by "bringing to our mind" what we have read and believed and are willing to obey. He does not remove our responsibility to seek and learn and do our best to practise what we have believed.

This is why to "be led by the Spirit of God" is to deliberately commit ourselves to following the Scriptures wherever they go.

Pasqual:
2. Perfection: So you mean God is mature and as such, we need to get matured?

I am sure that I said no such thing. If you can quote where I did, I will retract it.

"Perfect" and "mature" are English words that tend to mean different things for us. But they translate a Greek word in the New Testament which embraces both concepts. God's command that we should be perfect is clearly a command that we be sinless. But where Paul talked about becoming a perfect man in Ephesians 4, he was not speaking of sinlessness (in NIV1984, in fact, you will not see the word "perfect" in the context, just "mature" ). Rather, he was talking about attaining maturity in the Truth, that is growing up spiritually until one has come to understand what really our Lord Jesus Christ is about and can therefore act in a responsible manner with such knowledge. The latter does not equate with or guarantee sinlessness.

Pasqual:
Perfection here means sinlessness.. Check out these passages:
Romans 8vs1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Galatians 5vs17. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
I John 3vs9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him and he CANNOT SIN BECAUSE he IS BORN OF GOD.
I John 5vs18. And we know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Perfection where, do you mean? If you are referring to God's command, then, of course you are correct. If you are referring to Paul's teaching, however, you are quite wrong.

As for the passages, Romans 8:1 has nothing to do with being sinless or not. It simply says that those who are in Christ are no longer under condemnation. This follows directly upon Paul's discourse in Romans 7 which actually began in Romans 1. Paul meant there that it is not those who try (and inevitably fail) to keep the Mosaic Law or those who were given said Law (that is physical descendants of Abraham) who escape God's condemnation, rather it is those for whom Christ has atoned, that is, those who have accepted covering by the Lord Jesus Christ Who are no longer condemned. In fact, the context vehemently rejects any idea that sinless perfection is possible (Romans 7:18) or that it is necessary to Salvation (Romans 4:5-8 ).

Galatians 5:17 teaches us that if we walk in the Spirit, that is, deliberately seek the Truth, learn it, believe it and apply it and endeavor to help other willing people to do the same, we will not serve the desires of the flesh. That is a principle, a truth. But it does not at all suggest that we in fact can walk in the Spirit every moment of every day of our lives until we die or are resurrected at the Second Advent if we live to see that Day. It only says that every time we walk in the Spirit, we will not be serving the flesh. What one can take away from that is that we must fight to keep ourselves walking in the Spirit. If we falter or stumble, then we must pick ourselves up and get back to walking in the Spirit. But there is nothing here that even suggests that we can live every moment walking in the Spirit. If there were, it would immediately make James 3:2 a lie and that is impossible.

1 John 5:18 is not nearly as easy as you suppose it might be to interpret. If indeed it is so self-explanatory as you say, then we shouldn't have that much of a difficulty understanding how John says that after saying

1 John 2:1
[1]My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

If indeed, the translation of that passage is correct and your first impression of it is correct, then why did John say in the same letter above that if any believer sins (he is writing to believers and addresses them in the above verse), we have an Advocate in the Lord Jesus?

Clearly, John is saying something different than you understand and the translation may be part of the problem. The NIV1984 says:

1 John 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

The difference is significant. First, clearly, from 1 John 2:1, John did not believe that believers can never sin. In fact, without chapters and verses (which were a human invention created for convenience), 1 John 2:1 is really part of what John was saying in the preceding chapter. In that preceding chapter, John had said "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). This is in the immediate context of 2:1.

Next, in 1 John 3:3-10, the language is similar to 1 John 5:18. In NIV1984, the translation still goes "continue to sin". That does not contradict 1 John 2:1. So it is a better translation than any one that suggests that it is impossible to sin after we have been saved. However, the translation is still wanting in light of the entire letter. It makes the most sense to understand what John is saying thus (and I paraphrase):

"those who truly belong to God do not persist in sin because they keep themselves safe (by diligent confession of every sin and failure and thus maintaining fellowship with the Lord and the whole Church, see 1 John 1:6 - 2:2) so that the evil one cannot harm them."

So, again, this verse does not teach that sinless perfection is possible or expected of believers although it is in fact commanded of us.

Pasqual:
Maybe the reason why you don't believe God still speak is because you haven't been spoken to before by him which is a clear-evidence that you ain't part of His sheep because that's a confirmation that you are His.

I suppose I can understand why you would take it upon yourself to try to understand whether anyone - especially someone who is claiming to teach the Truth - is a believer. I used to do that same exact thing right here on this forum years ago. Let me assure you that I respect that demand for credentials and will honor it immediately but I must ask you to consider my answer in good faith so that you do not condemn your own self with the demands that you make. That is always a danger for many of us believers when we test the authority of teachers.

I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. I am confident that He is Eternal God Who became a true Man - sinless, perfect Man though, unlike the rest of us - and died a terrible spiritual death on the Cross for our sins so that we can be reconciled to God and then He rose from the dead and was received again back into the Heavens for our justification.

So, I am a believer. There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that unless one has "been spoken to before by [God]", they are not believers. Several unbelievers received communications from God. The unbelieving Pharaoh got a dream about a global famine from God. Unbelieving Nebuchadnezzar received an eschatological dream from God as well. Just consider the staggering number of Israelite and Judahite kings who were evil and still received communications from God through prophets (same as believing kings themselves did too). Even the Pharisees heard the Lord Jesus Christ Himself directly. The wicked, idolatrous Israelites in the desert too heard the Lord and saw His Miracles. But they too were unbelievers who perished.

Still, refer to my earlier statements to understand about hearing God's voice. It isn't about being able to experience the miraculous but about choosing to listen to, learn from, believe in and diligently obey the Lord Jesus Christ as He is revealed in the Bible. That too is something I strive everyday to choose.

Pasqual:
The passages that I gave for perfection are self explanatory so let me explain I John 1vs8-10.

Vs 8: Anyone who claims he has no sin deceives himself and the truth is not in him. When the gospel is presented to you (at this point you've never experience calvary) and you claim you have no sin, you deceive yourself because the sin of Adam made us all sinners and you must have by omission or commission committed a particular sin in the past.

Vs9: if you confess your sin, He is faithful and just to forgive your sins and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. At this point you've come to calvary, no matter how filthy you are, no matter how moral you've been, no matter how long you've been a sinner or how many sins you've committed, He will cleanse your sin if only you'll come to the cross. Isaiah 1vs18 confirms that.

Vs10: If you say you have not sinned, you make him a liar and his word is not in you. Here, after you have been cleansed, if you begin to claim as if you never sinned in your life before you met God at the cross of calvary; then you make him a liar and his truth is not in you because HE in HIS WORD said all have #sinned (past tense) and come short of the glory of God.

I think that my earlier response to your presentation of 1 John 5:18 is sufficient for this one as well.

Pasqual:
Brother, Apostle Paul said a veil covered the eyes of the children of Israel when the old testament was read to them. Even the disciples at a point did not know the (meaning) scriptures John 20vs9 until Christ opened their understanding in Luke 24vs45 so its not something you argue. If you don't understand seek advice and the best person to get it from is God. (I am not claiming to know but your ignorant points are making me to tell you what I feel. That's me. I am frank with my words). Its not too late to visit calvary and get start this perfection journey. The earlier the better. After that you can ask him to teach you the scriptures and you'll practically know whether HE still speaks to men..

About a veil covering their hearts, this was about the unbelief and hard-heartedness of the Israelites (2 Corinthians 3:14).

As for the disciples of the Lord Jesus, they were believers so it wasn't so much about hardheartedness as it was about their lack of the Holy Spirit indwelling them. The Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, the calling out of the Gentiles to join the Church and the Second Advent were all a mystery of epic proportions to even the greatest Old Testament prophets, so, of course they couldn't understand so very much of what the Lord was teaching them. They did not until they received the unique Gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit and even then it still took several years before they really got it. This all had nothing to do with not being believers. It was only the earlier Israelites who did not believe in God and so could not understand Moses.

However, I am a believer. I have already made it clear that I am. And although there is a vast multitude of truths that I am yet to learn, I have learned and am continuing everyday to learn. I try to be diligent to learn everyday what the Lord has to teach me. So, I am already on that journey. And I certainly am not ignorant, or, at least, I am not ignorant on these matters at all.

But you should consider the possibility that it is you who have very much to learn here. You do have plenty of zeal, it is obvious and I commend you for it. Far better to be on fire for the Lord even if you don't really know all that much than to pretend to care and really not have much of a connection to Him. But remember that it was their zeal that led the Pharisees and the Jews to crucifying the Lord and that it was the same zeal that led them to persecuting the Church of our Lord Jesus.

Our dear brother Paul who was one of their number and was once one of their most zealous actually said,

Romans 10:2 NASB
[2]For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

Zeal is very good. But it can do great evil if it is not directed by knowledge of the Truth. I am a personal witness to this. So, allow me to appeal to you to take a little time to really prayerfully think about and reconsider what you have said in the light of the Scriptures and see if maybe you shouldn't make some changes in your approach to the Bible.

Pasqual:
I am out of this discussion sir. I am grateful for the time we spent here to sharpen each other.. We can still discus other issues here nut not this anymore..

GOD BLESS YOU ALL

I thank you too for engaging. I hope and pray that you will think about these things prayerfully again and make adjustments. And I will remain open to further discussion regarding anything that would be edifying to you and myself and all of our brothers and sisters in this Race.

May the Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ keep you.

A must watch video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-zfWYM-dRM

Visionary Prophet Israel Oladele blessed one of his member, according to a prophecy he heard from God ...

HE STATED
*We should Live to Add Values to other Life
*My coming to Ministry is to put smile on people face
* Genesis global is not what you re given to the church , is about what the church is given back to you..

HumbledbYGrace:
This Thread is for Nairaland Religion Community and all interested to enjoy a chat with one another. It is NOT a debate platform. It is simply a place where Christians can meet with each other daily, leave Bible verses of encouragement, motivational talks, leave prayer requests,offer prayers, provide a listening ear to each other, provide comfort, care for one another, talk about issues of concern and interest, share knowledge, provide love, spiritual and moral support.


* This is not a platform to discriminate against any religion,belief,culture, tradition or way of life. It is neither a place for others to judge or discriminate against other denomination. 'All for Christ, Christ for all.' We respectfully request NL members, guests or any pop-ins to grant us this sanctuary, to discuss and meet in peace and tranquility. It would be appropriate to refrain from using inappropriate language that may offend others.


Every one that feel that they have anything to offer to be a blessing to this post, or to those posting here, are welcome to do so. If anyone needs advice and prayers for any needs, hurts, pains, unhappiness, illness, unemployment, housing or any other needs than please post here. Anyone that can help that is here at the time just jump right in to assist. This is NOT my thread,but belong to all of us!Drop in every day even just to say hi or only to read. Leave your footprint here in the form of a blessing!

This is an opportunity to make a new beginning.Start afresh, renew commitments, get enthusiastic and allow the Power of God to move you to new heights!

Since Nairaland is a faceless Forum, it is highly adviseable that people do not share personal photos on this thread or ask anyone out. No one is allowed to talk dirty or romantically on this thread because its not a dating thread.

If you feel like you want to chat to a sister or a brother about romance then please send that person a PM and discuss your issues off this thread and also do not annoy others, do not discriminate others and do not insult others nomatter who you are.



Thank you.

A must watch video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-zfWYM-dRM

Visionary Prophet Israel Oladele blessed one of his member, according to a prophecy he heard from God ...

HE STATED
*We should Live to Add Values to other Life
*My coming to Ministry is to put smile on people face
* Genesis global is not what you re given to the church , is about what the church is given back to you..

HumbledbYGrace:
*shot him her best smile*

"Welcome brother,uv come to the right place."
She says

*ask for the bottle of red wine and puts it away*

"Would u like some coffee?"

Cant believe i've not being here since...

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ihedinobi2:


Hello sir. I hope thatj you have not let go. I'm very sorry to hear how things are with you. Life for the believer in this world is a very hard affair. It does not matter what people may see from outside, it always is a fight everyday.

Let me encourage you to hang on to your Faith and keep trusting the Lord. It may not seem like it but the Lord is intimately involved in the affairs of your life and does have a good plan for you. But you can obstruct it by getting anxious and attempting to work things out yourself. Your part is always to trust the Lord without fail and do what is right.

If you need a job and have a skill, reach out to people and look online. The Lord will reward that effort. If it is that your business is not working so well, as long as you're putting in all that you should, keep trusting the Lord to open a door and continue plugging away until He does. In other words, do what is right and sensible (within the limits of Scriptural principles) and leave the Lord to sort the rest out.

I will say a prayer for you that you may be given wisdom to handle your affairs in a manner that honors the Lord. But also, do your part by studying the Bible everyday and listening to a gifted and prepared Bible teacher so that you grow increasingly able to discern the Spirit's guidance in your life so that you can work out difficulties like this with peace in your heart.

Thanks so much for the advise.though its no rocket science, knowing something, and implementing same,is not so easy but I will try.God bless you

In the thick of troubles,I asked for help:it was not forthcoming.trails flock round me,with no let up in sight.but lo n behold,a ray of light:a brother from nowhere, sent an advise .I thank him and bemoan others,that don't care,what depression, does to someone. It may be well with you,don't disregard others plight.take time off and listen,to their inner groans and be a source of encouragement. God bless you all

ihedinobi2:

That is understandable. Not very much of what I currently know and teach is common knowledge in churches today.

this Race.

May the Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ keep you.

Hello Chief,

Your posts are usually very long to read. I tried to read some. So i will just ask you to answer me in a simplistic manner (a few words in a sentence at most, bible verses could be dropped).

In your opinion, do you say that it's not in the place/age of today Christians to be used by God to perform miracles?
Also, are you categorically saying aside reading the bible, God does not speak to us through any other means?

Teenoh:

Thanks so much for the advise.though its no rocket science, knowing something, and implementing same,is not so easy but I will try.God bless you

It is my great pleasure and an honor from the Lord to help another believer.

Have you considered using freelancing websites like Upwork.com? You should try it and others like it. Who knows where the Lord will open a door for you?

chiteny:


Hello Chief,

Your posts are usually very long to read. I tried to read some. So i will just ask you to answer me in a simplistic manner (a few words in a sentence at most, bible verses could be dropped).

In your opinion, do you say that it's not in the place/age of today Christians to be used by God to perform miracles?
Also, are you categorically saying aside reading the bible, God does not speak to us through any other means?

I'm sorry that the long posts put you off. It is really hard for me to explain anything about the Bible in very few words. The Bible is a very complex book so that explanation tends to demand quite a bit of getting into.

To your first question, yes, that is what I am saying because of 1 Cor 13:8-10.

To your second question, yes, that is what I am saying because of Heb 1:1-2.

I can only refer you to my earlier posts for clearer explanations.

May the Peace of Jesus Christ be with you.

Dear voraz. Please email me at jlk172003@yahoo.com. Nairaland emails don't appear to hit my account anymore. Cheers.

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ihedinobi2:
Dear voraz. Please email me at jlk172003@yahoo.com. Nairaland emails don't appear to hit my account anymore. Cheers.

As soon as I can, I will.
It's really a surprise that you replied tho

I am new here please. I need explanation concerning tithing. Why do pastors only quote Malachi 3? Whereas there are many verses that talked about tithing, from Old Testament to even Hebrews. Please I need very serious and convincing explanations

clemzo101:
I am new here please. I need explanation concerning tithing. Why do pastors only quote Malachi 3? Whereas there are many verses that talked about tithing, from Old Testament to even Hebrews. Please I need very serious and convincing explanations

Hello. My explanation will be serious but you will decide just how convincing you find it.

First of all, I cannot speak for any pastors concerning why they quote only Malachi 3. You will have to ask them. The best I can do is take an educated guess. And that is that it is probably the best way they can try to convince believers who don't know the Bible well to pay them money. Also, there may be the problem of spiritual immaturity on the part of the pastor so that he does not understand the Scriptures in this particular matter.

Second, the tithe was the income tax of the ancient nation of Israel paid in agricultural products (both animals and plants crops or in their monetary equivalent plus 20% of the value). It was necessary to sustain the Temple worship and provide welfare for the indigent in the towns and villages and cities of Israel. Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18:21-32, Deut 14:28-29.

After the Lord Jesus Christ came and paid the Sacrifice in His Blood, the Law of Moses was removed and a new Law in Christ was instituted so that the ritual provisions of the Mosaic Law and the rituals associated with the Temple are no longer in force, certainly not for the Gentiles today. So the tithe is no longer in force. Heb 8:6-13.

But under the New Covenant in Jesus Christ's Blood, we are now supposed to cheerfully and deliberately take responsibility for one another so that

1. those whom the Lord has tasked with feeding His Children with the Truth (that is, pastor-teachers) are provided with what they need for sustenance (1 Cor 9:4-14, Gal 6:6);

2. indigent believers find material support from fellow believers (2 Cor 8:13-15, 9:11-12);

3. unbelievers are witnessed to by our compassion and generosity toward each other and them as well (2 Cor 9:13).

So, while we must not return to the Old Testament Mosaic Law in any form so that we do not blaspheme against the Lord Jesus Christ (any recourse to the Mosaic Law denies that the Lord Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and died for our sins, Gal 5:4), we are not therefore to become cruel and uncaring toward others. In fact, we are now called to a higher standard of life where we are to be proactive in helping others who are less fortunate in material circumstances than we are, of course prioritizing our pastor-teachers and fellow believers in this as well.


May the Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

voraz:


As soon as I can, I will.
It's really a surprise that you replied tho

Please, let me know when you do.

I really love the wy you explained it, so are we still suppose to pay? You didn't come Al out to either answer yes or no,

ihedinobi2:

Hello. My explanation will be serious but you will decide just how convincing you find it.

First of all, I cannot speak for any pastors concerning why they quote only Malachi 3. You will have to ask them. The best I can do is take an educated guess. And that is that it is probably the best way they can try to convince believers who don't know the Bible well to pay them money. Also, there may be the problem of spiritual immaturity on the part of the pastor so that he does not understand the Scriptures in this particular matter.

Second, the tithe was the income tax of the ancient nation of Israel paid in agricultural products (both animals and plants crops or in their monetary equivalent plus 20% of the value). It was necessary to sustain the Temple worship and provide welfare for the indigent in the towns and villages and cities of Israel. Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18:21-32, Deut 14:28-29.

After the Lord Jesus Christ came and paid the Sacrifice in His Blood, the Law of Moses was removed and a new Law in Christ was instituted so that the ritual provisions of the Mosaic Law and the rituals associated with the Temple are no longer in force, certainly not for the Gentiles today. So the tithe is no longer in force. Heb 8:6-13.

But under the New Covenant in Jesus Christ's Blood, we are now supposed to cheerfully and deliberately take responsibility for one another so that

1. those whom the Lord has tasked with feeding His Children with the Truth (that is, pastor-teachers) are provided with what they need for sustenance (1 Cor 9:4-14, Gal 6:6);

2. indigent believers find material support from fellow believers (2 Cor 8:13-15, 9:11-12);

3. unbelievers are witnessed to by our compassion and generosity toward each other and them as well (2 Cor 9:13).

So, while we must not return to the Old Testament Mosaic Law in any form so that we do not blaspheme against the Lord Jesus Christ (any recourse to the Mosaic Law denies that the Lord Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and died for our sins, Gal 5:4), we are not therefore to become cruel and uncaring toward others. In fact, we are now called to a higher standard of life where we are to be proactive in helping others who are less fortunate in material circumstances than we are, of course prioritizing our pastor-teachers and fellow believers in this as well.


May the Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

clemzo101:
I really love the wy you explained it, so are we still suppose to pay? You didn't come Al out to either answer yes or no,

I did. I said, "the tithe is no longer in force" and "we must not return to the Old Testament Mosaic Law in any form". Both statements mean that we are no longer responsible to pay the tithe.

But that does not mean that we are no longer responsible for our pastor-teachers, fellow believers in need or for indigent unbelievers. We are. It is up to us now how much and what exactly we will spare to provide for our teachers and for fellow Christians who have need and for unbelievers who are poor but we still have that responsibility before the Lord.

clemzo101:
I am new here please. I need explanation concerning tithing. Why do pastors only quote Malachi 3? Whereas there are many verses that talked about tithing, from Old Testament to even Hebrews. Please I need very serious and convincing explanations

Permit me to come in here. Those laws that were removed were shadows showing what Christ will come and do; so when the real image came, He removed the shadows. See how Hebrew 10vs1 puts it "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things..." in verse 9 "Then said HE, Lo, I come to do thy will O God. HE taketh away the first (Shadow), that HE may establish the second (Christ)" So hope you agree with me.

What Christ cancelled was the law (those shadows). It means all those things that were there before the law, they were not cancelled. God gave Moses the law and Abraham was there before Moses. Abraham gave a Tithe after he came back from the wars of the king. It was before the law so it means it was not a shadow to be cancelled..

Let's even consider this, GOD gave us HIS all. HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN/ SON i.e, HIS BEST, what we have to give HIM in return should be our all and it should be our best. That's what we saw in the early church.. Dare to give GOD what is BEST. David said I will not give to GOD that which does not hurt me. It is not actually the criteria to measure your gift to GOD but just give a meaningful thing to GOD knowing that with the same measure that you mete withal it shall be measured to you again...

The part about Abraham and Melchizedek is a part I forgot. It's popular but very very misguided.

To begin with, it was a one-off affair. There is no record of Abraham ever paying a tithe to anybody before then or after.

Second, Abraham was already quite wealthy and did not pay any tithe out of his own wealth. The tithe came out of the booty from the war, which booty he refused eventually to share in.

Third, that incident was deliberately designed by God to later demonstrate that the Levitical priesthood would be inferior to Christ's Priesthood of which all Christians are part. That raises the question: if Abraham is the example we are to follow, how exactly are we to follow it? Levi paid a tithe in Abraham to Melchizedek. We are in Christ Who is the Antitype of Melchizedek here, not Abraham. Should we be paying the tithe then? Shouldn't it be the Levites paying US a tithe now? But where are the Levites?

Fourth, the tithe, like many other provisions of the Law, was not original to the Mosaic Law. Before Moses codified it, it was part of the ancient cultures of that time. It was a typical tax paid to a superior like the priest-king Melchizedek. So, Abraham's behavior need not be interpreted as novel and inspired. It was his act of deference to a representative of the God He worshipped. Moses later simply incorporated that practice under God's Inspiration in a manner to foreshadow how believers will live as members of God's Commonwealth.

Finally, the argument that everything that happened before the Law is still legitimate is very ignorant. Before the Law, Abraham made sacrifices, should we begin to do the same as well? Clearly not. Many practices that occurred before the Law were really shadows of realities of the Cross, just like the Law too was. And obviously, the Law mostly codified those things and made them obligatory for an entire nation where they had only been individual choices previously.

So, the tithe is not legitimate today even if Abraham paid it to Melchizedek.

To begin with, it was a one-off affair. There is no record of Abraham ever paying a tithe to anybody before then or after.

Totally agree with that because the Bible gave us what HE wanted us to know and that is why I will still have to use this to counter your next claim.

Second, Abraham was already quite wealthy and did not pay any tithe out of his own wealth. The tithe came out of the booty from the war, which booty he refused eventually to share in.

The secret things belongeth unto God but those things which are revealed belong to us... (Deut. 29vs29) there is no record whether he paid tithe of His belongings earlier so since you were not the one that wrote the Bible don't jump into conclusion.

Third, that incident was deliberately designed by God to later demonstrate that the Levitical priesthood would be inferior to Christ's Priesthood of which all Christians are part. That raises the question: if Abraham is the example we are to follow, how exactly are we to follow it? Levi paid a tithe in Abraham to Melchizedek. We are in Christ Who is the Antitype of Melchizedek here, not Abraham. Should we be paying the tithe then? Shouldn't it be the Levites paying US a tithe now? But where are the Levites?

Malachi 3vs10; bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that they may be meat in my house... The Levites were the one dwelling in the house of God then that's why it seems as if they took it to the levites. Had it been it was the Danites, you would still be asking where the Danites are. Its not about the people, its the place. THE HOUSE OF GOD

Fourth, the tithe, like many other provisions of the Law, was not original to the Mosaic Law. Before Moses codified it, it was part of the ancient cultures of that time. It was a typical tax paid to a superior like the priest-king Melchizedek. So, Abraham's behavior need not be interpreted as novel and inspired. It was his act of deference to a representative of the God He worshipped. Moses later simply incorporated that practice under God's Inspiration in a manner to foreshadow how believers will live as members of God's Commonwealth.

I concur with the sacrifice of Abraham which was before the law but reading Hebrews 10vs10; By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ "once" "for all".. For all whether those sacrifices before the Law and those given to Moses..

Happy Sunday

Pasqual:
Totally agree with that because the Bible gave us what HE wanted us to know and that is why I will still have to use this to counter your next claim.

Actually, the fact that that is the only instance given to us of a tithe being paid by Abraham especially in a format that does not fit with what the Law and popular teachings of tithing proclaim makes any teaching that attempts to legitimize tithing through it extrabiblical.

Pasqual:
The secret things belongeth unto God but those things which are revealed belong to us... (Deut. 29vs29) there is no record whether he paid tithe of His belongings earlier so since you were not the one that wrote the Bible don't jump into conclusion.

As I said above, it is those who teach that tithing is legitimate on the basis of Abraham's example who are jumping to conclusions here. What is actually written gives no reason to believe that we should pay ten percent of our income to preachers.

Pasqual:
Malachi 3vs10; bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that they may be meat in my house... The Levites were the one dwelling in the house of God then that's why it seems as if they took it to the levites. Had it been it was the Danites, you would still be asking where the Danites are. Its not about the people, its the place. THE HOUSE OF GOD

I think you are missing the point. The only priesthood today is that of the Lord Jesus Christ and of all believers. Therefore, if any tithes ought to be paid at all, it would be to the believer. But who is the person supposed to pay tithes to the believer? No one really. The tithe was a Levitical affair, not a Christian affair.

Pasqual:
I concur with the sacrifice of Abraham which was before the law but reading Hebrews 10vs10; By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ "once" "for all".. For all whether those sacrifices before the Law and those given to Moses..

Happy Sunday

If you believe that, then you must also believe that the fact that something came before the Law does not mean that it has not been ended by the Cross of Jesus Christ.

Have a good Sunday too.

[quote author=ihedinobi2 post=71656481]

What is even this issue of giving these days. Modern day Christians find it difficult to part away with little things for the Kingdom of GOD but we refuse to put in mind what JESUS CHRIST left in order to redeem us, what HE suffered in other to set us free..
He gave not only HIS LIFE, for 33 and half years, HE was in this wretched world as a Man, was bitten, spat upon, crucified as if HE was paying for HIS sins. All these HE did for us and common 10 percent of your income, we find it difficult..

Ananias and Sapphira started on this not, the rich man who met JESUS claiming to have fulfilled all necessary conditions also couldn't do this.. Sorry but I feel many things will make men miss heaven. Jesus said it will be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. If young men who haven't made any serious money can't pay 10%, how will they now give their all to God!

Jesus gave 2 parables in Matthew 13vs44,46..when a certain man finds a pearl of great price or a field with treasure; He sells ALL THAT HE HAD just to buy that pearl or field.

Anything less than your all is not worthy of GOD. I mean if you can't path with ALL when it is demanded by GOD, you ain't worthy of HIM since HE GAVE YOU HIS ALL..


Emulate Abraham. He had the heart of giving GOD his PROMISED-SON. The one who will be the successor of HIS ABRAHAMIC COVENANT..

@Pasqual, we can never accomplish God's Will by using the enemy's tools and strategies.

That means that you can never do good by doing wrong. Or teach people to do right by teaching them lies.

We ought to be generous to our teachers, to fellow believers and to unbelievers in difficulty. That is what the Scriptures teach us. They do not teach that we must give 10% of our income to pastors or preachers whether they ask for it or not.

We have a responsibility to help each other in our material difficulties. We have a responsibility to share in all good things with our teachers (Gal 6:6). But we have NO responsibility or obligation to pay any tithe to anyone. That is unscriptural and is actually blasphemy in many cases.