@4Him,

4Him:

Bravo stimulus. Even i found it hard to wrap my head around your explanations . . . i learnt something new today thanks!

Well, I do apologize for being so closely knitted in my explications of the "comings" that I'm persuaded the Lord Jesus was referring to in His teaching. Perhaps a simple outline may help?

Here goes:

Whenever we read of references to the "coming" of Jesus Christ in the NT, we should understand that there are various aspects of those 'comings' and they do not all point to the same epoch or the same events and time. Basically, the 'comings' in the verses we have examined outline two aspects:

[list][li](a) His coming in view of the OT prophecies in a narrow sense[/li]

[li](b) His coming in terms of the apocalypse in a broad sense[/li][/list]

As regards (a) above, we should remember Malachi 3:1 speaks of His "coming"; but where and when? The answers are highlighted in the verse itself:

the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple,
even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in:
behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

This is not in reference to the apocalypse as in the case of (b) above; rather, it speaks of His "coming" to visit the earthly Temple and its resultant effect upon the JEWS.

I understand that many people see Matthew 16:28 as a direct reference to the apocalypse; but if that were so, it would mean that that "coming" happened in the past and we are all waiting for a non-existent promise!

However, the simple issue here to understanding the "coming" in Matthew 16 is to look at two verses (27 & 28) which carry both aspects of (a) and (b) in reverse order! Let me explain:

[list][li]Matthew 16:27 speaks of the "coming" in a broad sense, which we properly identify as the Second Coming of the apocalypse! Let's see what the verse says:

'For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.'

It is clear here that this is the reference in that chapter that we should be looking at as a direct reference to the 2nd Coming! It speaks of 3 things in every reference of that 2nd Coming:

a. His coming with the angels

b. the epoch marked by "and then"

c. the rewarding of every man according as he deserves

However, when these things are thus highlighted, they do not point to the narrow sense of His coming "suddenly" to His Temple; for this other aspect is not in view of the apocalyptic rewards.[/li][/list]

I'll go on next to examine Matthew 16:28.

@4Him,

Now, let's see Matthew 16:28 --

'Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.'

At first glance, one would assume that this is a reference to His apocalyptic "coming"; but again, that would mean that it had happened in the past - because He clearly mentioned that some of those standing there as He spoke would not have died before they saw Him coming in His Kingdom!

Could I point out a few things here for easier understanding?

Reference is made to a few pointers as well:

[list][li]a. those He spoke to were standing there and would not have tasted death before they saw Him "coming"[/li]

[li]b. He spoke of His "coming" here as connected to His Kingdom[/li]

[li]c. both matters undeniably speak of an event which has happened in the past[/li][/list]

We cannot dribble away the first part (a) and quickly assume that the second part (b) must point to the apocalyptic "coming" in the future. Both aspects (a. and b.) must be considered together to get a proper understanding of what He was pointing to - which I'm persuaded leads to the inference in (c).

I'm persuaded that Matthew 16:28 points to the narrow aspect of His coming to the Temple as declared by Malachi 3:1, quoted again:

    the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple,
even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in:
behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Did this happen in the past? It should have; and this is why:

The Kingdom:

Let us not assume that the mention of "his Kingdom" in Matthew 16:28 must mean that the "coming" is yet to happen in future. The Lord Jesus in another verse speaks of the "kingdom" as a present reality, rather than as a future event to be awaited:

Luke 17:20-21

And when He was demanded of the Pharisees,
when the kingdom of God should come,
He answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there!
for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Of course, we often pray for the Kingdom to "come" [thy kingdom come - Matt. 6:10] as a future expectation - but that is in reference to a full manifestation of the apocalypse. However, as seen above, the very presence of Jesus is the Kingdom He was speaking about! The "Kingdom" was right there amongst them, but they did not recognize Him! (I doubt that we could have recognized Him ourselves if we stood there!)

@4Him,

Anyhow, when Jesus said: "till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matt. 16:28), He was speaking of His glorious entry to Jerusalem to fulfill Malachi 3:1.

You will notice that Jesus had been in the Temple several times, for example: 'sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions' (Luke 2:46). However, the "coming" to the Temple referred to in Malachi 3:1 was a specific event, for which we now turn to Matthew 21.

When Jesus went to Jerusalem, "a very great multitude" gave Him a glorious welcome, calling out such acolades as "Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest" (vv. 8 & 9). Inspite of all the celebrations, the leaders had not recognized the fulfillment of the prophecy that they were acquainted with - Malachi 3:1!!

Mark 11:11 states that when Jesus entered into Jerusalem and into the temple, He looked round about upon all things; but went that evening into Bethany. It was not until the next day that He went again into Jerusalem and entered the Temple to cast out the heinous things He had seen the previous day! Right before their eyes, Malachi 3:1 had suddenly come to pass!

When Jesus entered into the Temple in Matthew 21, the very thing He told them in Matthew 16:28 had been fulfilled - that was His 'coming' in His Kingdom in the sense that Malachi 3:1 prophesied; but it did not affect or negate the apocalyptic "coming" in Matthew 16:27.


In summary:

Matthew 16:27-28 speak of both aspects:

(a) v. 27 speaks of the broad sense of His apocalyptic coming
(with rewards to every man according as He deserves)

(b) v. 28 speaks of the narrow sense of His coming to the Temple
(fulfilled in the very presence of those who stood there and did not taste death)

On the whole, both aspects have been clearly enunciated in Scripture - and if we take the time to see the collective whole, we shall not miss what is meant.

As therationa has helped us with refining the topic, I'd advise readers again:

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages

I think that is a warm and very needed advice especially for many of us Christians.

Did JC come back today?

huxley:

Did JC come back today?

Would that not be violating the same thing you indicated by the topic of the thread: "Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation. . "?

Stop wasting your time, jesus and already come and gone and will NEVER come again.

Has Jesus returned yet?

I noe regret changing my original title for this thread. At the time, I was falling over backwards to be compliant with Christians here. Unfortunately, this account is no longer accessible my me, or I would change the title back to its original.

The heat I put on the Stimulus here was enough to get him OFF NL and he has not returned since. Another one despatched with tail between legs.

huxley:

Has Jesus returned yet?

Nope, he is waiting for you to give your life before he returns. We wouldn't want to see you roasting in hell would we?

KunleOshob:

Nope, he is waiting for you to give your life before he returns. We wouldn't want to see you roasting in hell would we?

He can go and self-service himself

huxley:

He can go and self-service himself

But you seem obsessed with Him and His bible know. Even christians are not this obsessed.

@huxley
I would really like to take you up on this your hardcore atheism posture, i am sure i would be able to make you see the light however it would be very difficult to present my case on the internet as i could be guilty of confusing others who don't really understand the faith [most people don't] i really wish we can meet so we can dialogue onoe on one.

KunleOshob:

@huxley
I would really like to take you up on this your hardcore atheism posture, i am sure i would be able to make you see the light however it would be very difficult to present my case on the internet as i could be guilty of confusing others who don't really understand the faith [most people don't] i really wish we can meet so we can dialogue onoe on one.

Do you live anywhere near Manchester?