@Anony;

by Mr_Anony(m): 7:20am

mazaje:

What else did Paul get wrong in the bible?. . .He stated something that was obviously wrong. . .Am not grasping as straws but making a valid point

Read it in context, Paul was writing a letter to comfort his brethren and remind them of the hope that awaits them. It was not a "prophecy".
He thought he would see the rapture in his time in the same way many patriarchs of the old testament thought they will see the messiah in their time.

is this the same anony that the christians on nl say is the bomb? i am shocked that you cant answer the question of an atheist. just one of them. imagine if they come at you from every direction? wouldn't you have been more at a lost?

the statement of Paul wherein he proposed rapture was based on Jesus coming back, a promise he made to the 12. Paul was not one of them. even after Jesus had left, being lifted up by God, his Lord Almighty, Paul began to persecute those who were believers of what Jesus brought.

i guess that we can now say that many things Paul "thought happened and would happen".

one of what he thought happened was the vision of meeting and hearing the voice of Jesus. Like many ex muslims, because of their evil deeds based on lack of tangible faith in One God, they see satan who is telling them he is Jesus and sometimes as combo of God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But never God Who created all and sent every prophet including Jesus [as].

I guess if Jesus didnt rise, the faith of Paul is rubbish must have made Paul concoct the rapture idea, while he was not part of the 12, you conveniently accepted his "makeup" and refuse the statements of Jesus about the laws and prophets before him and the only the prophet and another comforter he said will come.

How many things Paul got wrong or thought about that you took as inspiration of God, even now that you know that Paul was dead wrong? Are you going to renounce him and throw his idea at him?

The best of all prophets [sa] had came and his book remained intact because God guarantees its Purity.

Sweetnecta: @Anony; is this the same anony that the christians on nl say is the bomb? i am shocked that you cant answer the question of an atheist. just one of them. imagine if they come at you from every direction? wouldn't you have been more at a lost?

the statement of Paul wherein he proposed rapture was based on Jesus coming back, a promise he made to the 12. Paul was not one of them. even after Jesus had left, being lifted up by God, his Lord Almighty, Paul began to persecute those who were believers of what Jesus brought.

i guess that we can now say that many things Paul "thought happened and would happen".

one of what he thought happened was the vision of meeting and hearing the voice of Jesus. Like many ex muslims, because of their evil deeds based on lack of tangible faith in One God, they see satan who is telling them he is Jesus and sometimes as combo of God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But never God Who created all and sent every prophet including Jesus [as].

I guess if Jesus didnt rise, the faith of Paul is rubbish must have made Paul concoct the rapture idea, while he was not part of the 12, you conveniently accepted his "makeup" and refuse the statements of Jesus about the laws and prophets before him and the only the prophet and another comforter he said will come.

How many things Paul got wrong or thought about that you took as inspiration of God, even now that you know that Paul was dead wrong? Are you going to renounce him and throw his idea at him?

The best of all prophets [sa] had came and his book remained intact because God guarantees its Purity.

Lol, really? What exactly is your point here?

First of all, you seem to have this impression of me as some "christian celebrity debater" engaged in the battle against NL atheists. That impression is wrong.

If you claim that Paul didn't really see a vision of Christ, then you must tell us exactly how you know this. From the verse in question, Paul was not in anyway making a prophecy so I see nothing wrong with his statement there.

Now your prophet Mohammed also saw some visions and from what I hear, he believed he was being possessed by a demon. How do we know for sure that it is not something that he thought happened? How do we know for sure that the Koran is not merely the concoctions of Mohammed?

When Jesus spoke of another comforter, I assure you He was not speaking about some Arab who 600 years later would form a religion that will be at enmity with His followers. He was talking about the Holy Ghost who now dwells within us and teaches us all things, bearing witness with our spirit that we are sons of God our Father.

Todaynatoday: I'm talking about the 144,000 souls that have been chosen to reign with Jesus Christ.

[b]Revelation 7:1-8
King James Version
(KJV)
7 And after these things I saw four
angels standing on the four corners
of the earth, holding the four winds
of the earth, that the wind should
not blow on the earth, nor on the
sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the
seal of the living God: and he cried
with a loud voice to the four angels,
to whom it was given to hurt the
earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till
we have sealed the servants of our
God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were
sealed an hundred and forty and
four thousand of all the tribes of
the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of
Reuben were sealed twelve
thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were
sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of
Nephthalim were sealed twelve
thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses
were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the
tribe of Levi were sealed twelve
thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar
were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the
tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve
thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin
were sealed twelve thousand.[/b]

I see, well I hold that the rapture will happen after the tribulation and that the elect are not limited to 144,000. Read further down Revelations 7, you will find that there was a multitude of saints worshiping God who were killed during the great tribulation (verse 14)

Now compare to Matthew 24:22
....And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
This tells us that the elect would be present in those terrible days and as you continue to read down, we find that the Son of Man comes in Matthew 24:30, the chapter goes on to paint for us a picture of what the rapture would be like from verses 40 onwards.

^^^Thanks for the explanation and for taking your time to reply. If I have more questions, I'll let you know.

Mr_Anony:
I see, well I hold that the rapture will happen after the tribulation and that the elect are not limited to 144,000. Read further down Revelations 7, you will find that there was a multitude of saints worshiping God who were killed during the great tribulation (verse 14)

Now compare to Matthew 24:22
....And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
This tells us that the elect would be present in those terrible days and as you continue to read down, we find that the Son of Man comes in Matthew 24:30, the chapter goes on to paint for us a picture of what the rapture would be like from verses 40 onwards.

Yes, I agree with you. This is beautiful! most Christians dont seem to understand this though.

Todaynatoday: ^^^Thanks for the explanation and for taking your time to reply. If I have more questions, I'll let you know.

All the best bro

Mr_Anony:
I see, well I hold that the rapture will happen after the tribulation and that the elect are not limited to 144,000. Read further down Revelations 7, you will find that there was a multitude of saints worshiping God who were killed during the great tribulation (verse 14)

Now compare to Matthew 24:22
....And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
This tells us that the elect would be present in those terrible days and as you continue to read down, we find that the Son of Man comes in Matthew 24:30, the chapter goes on to paint for us a picture of what the rapture would be like from verses 40 onwards.

Hmmm, i am overjoyed whenever i come across people that are versed in scriptures. Many quote the Bible out of context and leave off some parts in pursuance of selfish interests. God is faithful and can NEVER be mocked. No matter how our preachers or pastors bastardise Christianity, God would always preserve remnants who will stand firm in Him especially in these last days. No matter how we try to twist, turn, shift or cut out from God's words, we would never change the essence of who God is. Heaven, hell and rapture are real. Once more a big thank u to Mr Anony for painstakingly taking time to expound the scriptures as regards the theme of rapture, a topic so neglected by the church of Christ yet so important. May God's grace abound for all those who await the return of the Bridegroom.... Amen

@Anony:

by Mr_Anony(m): 7:52pm On Dec 09
Lol, really? What exactly is your point here?

First of all, you seem to have this impression of me as some "christian celebrity debater" engaged in the battle against NL atheists. That impression is wrong.

i just got the memo since mazaje is able to make mince meat of you here. 'christian celebrity debater' indeed. [should i lol to rob it in? not yet].

If you claim that Paul didn't really see a vision of Christ, then you must tell us exactly how you know this. From the verse in question, Paul was not in anyway making a prophecy so I see nothing wrong with his statement there.

if Biblical God is on the side of Paul, what Paul said, prophesy or not, should be correct. After all God is not the Author of confusion and Paul was so sure that he cursed "whosoever shall preach another Gospel than what we preached". Any mistake from Paul and or different statement made than what Jesus and or his disciples said is evidence point to his unreliability. even you his follower by faith and defender here said, when asked:

by Mr_Anony(m): 7:19pm On Dec 08

Todaynatoday: please, can you explain what rapture is and where it is mentioned in the bible?

Here's the explanation you seek.

....For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.....
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

(Quote) (Report) (Like)
Re: What If U Are Left Behind After Rapture? by mazaje(m): 7:28pm On Dec 08

Mr_Anony:
Here's the explanation you seek.

....For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.....
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


Wasn't this supposed to have happened during the time of Paul?. . .

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, is an evidence against him. he believed he would be on earth when Jesus will return. Jesus has not returned. You are still expecting him. Paul is dead, unless he is hiding somewhere. If Paul who never met Jesus blundered this much about Jesus, what evidence do you have he didn't blunder about his "vision of seeing Jesus"? Jesus could not deceive him. He would have told him what he told his 12 disciples he nursed for 3 years of earthly ministry. He will not switch and go against all of that with somebody he never knew. I know Paul claimed what he claimed about Jesus. The evidences are proving him wrong.

Now your prophet Mohammed also saw some visions and from what I hear, he believed he was being possessed by a demon. How do we know for sure that it is not something that he thought happened? How do we know for sure that the Koran is not merely the concoctions of Mohammed?

if it was from Muhammad [sa] he would have taken credit for The Quran. He would made plenty of profits; money, power, influence, royalty, etc from the Makkans. Paul and others in the Bible never let us forget that they wrote what they wrote and all of the bible verses were not "inspired". Muhammad [sa] said all of Quran is from God. Evidence; you do not write any book and scared yourself with warning. Muhammad [sa] was warned in the Quran, even though he was the most obedient. God says "Oh prophet, be conscious of God". He was told that if he had leaned towards disbelief he would have been seized and cut off. His punishment would have been double. Even his turning of face was spoken about in great detail. If Muhammad [sa] has been the author of the Quran, he would not have emphasized so much about turning of face from a person he wished to talk to, later. He was grateful to God that He 'remembered' by this incident of "turning face".

And if satan has anything to do with the Quran, satan would not have been cursed and debased so much with promise of worst kind of punishment on The Day of Judgment.

When Jesus spoke of another comforter, I assure you He was not speaking about some Arab who 600 years later would form a religion that will be at enmity with His followers. He was talking about the Holy Ghost who now dwells within us and teaches us all things, bearing witness with our spirit that we are sons of God our Father.

i have news for you. you are not a follower of Jesus. his true followers were just handful. very few in his generation and none after it because a religion different from what he preached rose up. There is no Gospel that Jesus preached. You people made up and are following a "gospel" about Jesus. And the arab [sa] that came up 600 years later, is in the motif of "Jesus promising to come back, right away". its been over 2000 years and unless you say right away can be over 2000 years, how then do you have problem with mere 600 years, 3/10th of 2000 years?

Continue to deceive yourself about holy ghost. Listen, if you read the Bible and see where Jesus promise holy ghost [lol] to anyone apart from the 12 disciples and those in that generation, or where Jesus say He is The One to be worshiped, I can be baptized, right here, tomorrow. Leave the liars aside. Lets deal with Jesus of the Bible.

here is a video for you. watch it an ready for your shahadah.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0dKufkQI4w

I guess you are speaking falsely against God. No?
loud mouth boaster. Anony, you are in for a bumpy ride.

mazaje:

your god inspired paul to make wrong guesses?. . . .

That bible portion is written both for Paul's generations and generations after. It simple means that those who are alive when it happens will join the dead in Christ who will also be ressurected to meet with the Lord above.

^ so you just said the rapture is from Paul's generation onward, which ever generation is alive, it is fulfilled on that generation.
but Jesus was talking to his own generation, the disciples of 12.

Paul was not a disciple and he is from later generation.

if Jesus was addressing his generation of disciples, and Paul is addressing his own generation and beyond, who is correct between Jesus and Paul?
who is worthy to be followed of the two?

Heck. Jesus did not arrive to pick up his disciples. Worse, Paul and his generation and hundreds of generations are perished without the rapture.

I say there is no rapture. And the truth that Jesus was telling the disciples is of two folds: As a prophet of God, Jesus does not know the future, except what God tells him of it. This is the reason that he did not give specific assurance that he will come back and for sure when 1 or more of the disciples will still be alive.

Jesus is telling the disciples that another comforter who was the "that prophet" will come in the future after him. The time, for sure is not absolutely known just like the time of his returning to the earth. if you fail to see that this is the absolute truth, then you have categorized Jesus as a failure, just like Paul is. Paul is not to be believed if we are to believe Jesus. For sure Jesus is an elect of God. Elect of God does not lie.

The 2000 years and counting more years that people have been waiting for Jesus to return is not the decision of Jesus to make. 600 years after Jesus that we saw the advent of Muhammad [sa] is a water shed in time to how close the arrive of Muhammad [sa] is to the departure of Jesus [as]. it could be considered a mere hours, considering that we do not know when Jesus will finally return, coinciding with the time that antichrist must also be on earth. With God a day is as long as many 10s of 1000s of years.

Sweetnecta let me see d number of christians dat will continue to debate with u, infact they will the most patient nd for me, i'v planned to engage u many time but hv discovered u to reason blindly nd foolishly nd claim u are right nd that has detered, i'll prefer to debate Calloti with all her blaspheme than most muslim cause there are few who are not like u nd to Anony is d rapture taken place before d coming of the antichrist or after.

Sweetnecta: @Anony: i just got the memo since mazaje is able to make mince meat of you here. 'christian celebrity debater' indeed. [should i lol to rob it in? not yet].


if Biblical God is on the side of Paul, what Paul said, prophesy or not, should be correct. After all God is not the Author of confusion and Paul was so sure that he cursed "whosoever shall preach another Gospel than what we preached". Any mistake from Paul and or different statement made than what Jesus and or his disciples said is evidence point to his unreliability. even you his follower by faith and defender here said, when asked:



1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, is an evidence against him. he believed he would be on earth when Jesus will return. Jesus has not returned. You are still expecting him. Paul is dead, unless he is hiding somewhere. If Paul who never met Jesus blundered this much about Jesus, what evidence do you have he didn't blunder about his "vision of seeing Jesus"? Jesus could not deceive him. He would have told him what he told his 12 disciples he nursed for 3 years of earthly ministry. He will not switch and go against all of that with somebody he never knew. I know Paul claimed what he claimed about Jesus. The evidences are proving him wrong.


if it was from Muhammad [sa] he would have taken credit for The Quran. He would made plenty of profits; money, power, influence, royalty, etc from the Makkans. Paul and others in the Bible never let us forget that they wrote what they wrote and all of the bible verses were not "inspired". Muhammad [sa] said all of Quran is from God. Evidence; you do not write any book and scared yourself with warning. Muhammad [sa] was warned in the Quran, even though he was the most obedient. God says "Oh prophet, be conscious of God". He was told that if he had leaned towards disbelief he would have been seized and cut off. His punishment would have been double. Even his turning of face was spoken about in great detail. If Muhammad [sa] has been the author of the Quran, he would not have emphasized so much about turning of face from a person he wished to talk to, later. He was grateful to God that He 'remembered' by this incident of "turning face".

And if satan has anything to do with the Quran, satan would not have been cursed and debased so much with promise of worst kind of punishment on The Day of Judgment.


i have news for you. you are not a follower of Jesus. his true followers were just handful. very few in his generation and none after it because a religion different from what he preached rose up. There is no Gospel that Jesus preached. You people made up and are following a "gospel" about Jesus. And the arab [sa] that came up 600 years later, is in the motif of "Jesus promising to come back, right away". its been over 2000 years and unless you say right away can be over 2000 years, how then do you have problem with mere 600 years, 3/10th of 2000 years?

Continue to deceive yourself about holy ghost. Listen, if you read the Bible and see where Jesus promise holy ghost [lol] to anyone apart from the 12 disciples and those in that generation, or where Jesus say He is The One to be worshiped, I can be baptized, right here, tomorrow. Leave the liars aside. Lets deal with Jesus of the Bible.

here is a video for you. watch it an ready for your shahadah.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0dKufkQI4w

I guess you are speaking falsely against God. No?
loud mouth boaster. Anony, you are in for a bumpy ride.

I haven't had much time of late but I have taken time now to read your post and watch your video. To be honest I can't make out exactly what your point is amongst all the snide comments and deriding statements. You seem to be hurling as many attacks as you can in on post that I can't really make the head or tail of exactly what you wish to talk about. If you would, please kindly state your points clearly and preferably in bullet points so that I know what I will be responding to. Thanks

la cosa nostra: ....nd to Anony is d rapture taken place before d coming of the antichrist or after.

What does the bible say about the coming of the antichrist?

I was not expecting u to reply me with a question, okay lets assume i knw nothing, will the rapture happen before or after the coming of the antichrist as u understand it nd pls provide some scripture, tnx.

Mr_Anony:
Really? I'm quite sure that the verses I quoted were written long before 1900. Where do you get your "facts" from?

From the source of all human knowledge, Wikipedia amongst other places.

[url]en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture[/url]

Fact: There is not a single mention of anything resembling the rapture in any Christian writing, anywhere before the 17th century. For the first 16 whole centuries that Christianity existed, the idea of the rapture never occured to anybody. Founding fathers like Justin Martyr, Origen as well as thousands of "great men of god" pored over the scriptures for 16 centuries, and not a single one of them ever got the notion that all Christians on earth would suddenly disappear along with a bunch of newly undead zombies.

The idea of a rapture first cropped up in England around 1830, most likely originating with a soon to be expelled Presbyterian priest called John Nelson Darby. It bubbled under among the more "spirit-filled" (i.e. crazier) Christians until the turn of the century when it was popularised, like so many other bad things, by the Americans.

It is a very new doctrine. The fact that you're ignorant of this doesnt make it less true.

Mr_Anony:
Really? I'm quite sure that the verses I quoted were written long before 1900. Where do you get your "facts" from?

From the source of all human knowledge, Wikipedia amongst other places.

[url]en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture[/url]

Fact: There is not a single mention of anything resembling the rapture in any Christian writing, anywhere before the 17th century. For the first 16 whole centuries that Christianity existed, the idea of the rapture never occured to anybody. Founding fathers like Justin Martyr, Origen as well as thousands of "great men of god" pored over the scriptures for 16 centuries, and not a single one of them ever got the notion that all Christians on earth would suddenly disappear along with a bunch of newly undead zombies.

The idea of a rapture first cropped up in England around 1830, most likely originating with a soon to be expelled Presbyterian priest called John Nelson Darby. It bubbled under among the more "spirit-filled" (i.e. crazier) Christians until the turn of the century when it was popularised, like so many other bad things, by the Americans.

It is a very new doctrine. The fact that you're ignorant of this doesnt make it less true.

Edit: In case anybody missed that, let me just point out that I was joking about getting my facts from Wikipedia. I (used to) read extremely widely and I get my info from a wide variety of sources. I just like quoting Wikipedia because it has a nice summary of the latest knowledge on most topics. And also because it's easier than posting links to a hundred different articles. If you want more info, follow the wiki references or Google is your friend.

@Sweetnecta, i am sorry to inform you that this post is not for Muslims but for Christians who believe in rapture but are not versed in the topic.

Sweetnecta: ^ so you just said the rapture is from Paul's generation onward, which ever generation is alive, it is fulfilled on that generation.
but Jesus was talking to his own generation, the disciples of 12.

Paul was not a disciple and he is from later generation.

if Jesus was addressing his generation of disciples, and Paul is addressing his own generation and beyond, who is correct between Jesus and Paul?
who is worthy to be followed of the two?

Heck. Jesus did not arrive to pick up his disciples. Worse, Paul and his generation and hundreds of generations are perished without the rapture.

I say there is no rapture. And the truth that Jesus was telling the disciples is of two folds: As a prophet of God, Jesus does not know the future, except what God tells him of it. This is the reason that he did not give specific assurance that he will come back and for sure when 1 or more of the disciples will still be alive.
Paul and others never perished, in the scriptuse, note that he said that the dead will rise first before those that are alive will follow

Jesus is telling the disciples that another comforter who was the "that prophet" will come in the future after him. The time, for sure is not absolutely known just like the time of his returning to the earth. if you fail to see that this is the absolute truth, then you have categorized Jesus as a failure, just like Paul is. Paul is not to be believed if we are to believe Jesus. For sure Jesus is an elect of God. Elect of God does not lie.
The 2000 years and counting more years that people have been waiting for Jesus to return is not the decision of Jesus to make. 600 years after Jesus that we saw the advent of Muhammad [sa] is a water shed in time to how close the arrive of Muhammad [sa] is to the departure of Jesus [as]. it could be considered a mere hours, considering that we do not know when Jesus will finally return, coinciding with the time that antichrist must also be on earth. With God a day is as long as many 10s of 1000s of years.

Paul preached Christ, there is no issue as who was greater. Paul acknowledged Jesus as the ONLY foundation. 1 Cor 3 vs 11.

Another comforter never referred to any 'prophet' according to Jesus but is the Holy spirit. Jn 14 vs 16, 26: He told the disciples specifically what the Comforter will do. Jn 15 vs 26, Jn 16 vs13 as well as who He is.
it has taken this long so that the gospel will reach the whole world, for the prophecy of signs of the last days in Mtt 24 to be fulfilled and for you to reconsider your ways and give your life to Christ.

Evil Brain:

From the source of all human knowledge, Wikipedia amongst other places.

[url]en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture[/url]

Fact: There is not a single mention of anything resembling the rapture in any Christian writing, anywhere before the 17th century. For the first 16 whole centuries that Christianity existed, the idea of the rapture never occured to anybody. Founding fathers like Justin Martyr, Origen as well as thousands of "great men of god" pored over the scriptures for 16 centuries, and not a single one of them ever got the notion that all Christians on earth would suddenly disappear along with a bunch of newly undead zombies.

The idea of a rapture first cropped up in England around 1830, most likely originating with a soon to be expelled Presbyterian priest called John Nelson Darby. It bubbled under among the more "spirit-filled" (i.e. crazier) Christians until the turn of the century when it was popularised, like so many other bad things, by the Americans.

It is a very new doctrine. The fact that you're ignorant of this doesnt make it less true.

Edit: In case anybody missed that, let me just point out that I was joking about getting my facts from Wikipedia. I (used to) read extremely widely and I get my info from a wide variety of sources. I just like quoting Wikipedia because it has a nice summary of the latest knowledge on most topics. And also because it's easier than posting links to a hundred different articles. If you want more info, follow the wiki references or Google is your friend.

Evil Brain:

From the source of all human knowledge, Wikipedia amongst other places.

[url]en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture[/url]

Fact: There is not a single mention of anything resembling the rapture in any Christian writing, anywhere before the 17th century. For the first 16 whole centuries that Christianity existed, the idea of the rapture never occured to anybody. Founding fathers like Justin Martyr, Origen as well as thousands of "great men of god" pored over the scriptures for 16 centuries, and not a single one of them ever got the notion that all Christians on earth would suddenly disappear along with a bunch of newly undead zombies.

The idea of a rapture first cropped up in England around 1830, most likely originating with a soon to be expelled Presbyterian priest called John Nelson Darby. It bubbled under among the more "spirit-filled" (i.e. crazier) Christians until the turn of the century when it was popularised, like so many other bad things, by the Americans.

It is a very new doctrine. The fact that you're ignorant of this doesnt make it less true.

Edit: In case anybody missed that, let me just point out that I was joking about getting my facts from Wikipedia. I (used to) read extremely widely and I get my info from a wide variety of sources. I just like quoting Wikipedia because it has a nice summary of the latest knowledge on most topics. And also because it's easier than posting links to a hundred different articles. If you want more info, follow the wiki references or Google is your friend.

Evil Brain:

From the source of all human knowledge, Wikipedia amongst other places.

[url]en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture[/url]

Fact: There is not a single mention of anything resembling the rapture in any Christian writing, anywhere before the 17th century. For the first 16 whole centuries that Christianity existed, the idea of the rapture never occured to anybody. Founding fathers like Justin Martyr, Origen as well as thousands of "great men of god" pored over the scriptures for 16 centuries, and not a single one of them ever got the notion that all Christians on earth would suddenly disappear along with a bunch of newly undead zombies.

The idea of a rapture first cropped up in England around 1830, most likely originating with a soon to be expelled Presbyterian priest called John Nelson Darby. It bubbled under among the more "spirit-filled" (i.e. crazier) Christians until the turn of the century when it was popularised, like so many other bad things, by the Americans.

It is a very new doctrine. The fact that you're ignorant of this doesnt make it less true.

Edit: In case anybody missed that, let me just point out that I was joking about getting my facts from Wikipedia. I (used to) read extremely widely and I get my info from a wide variety of sources. I just like quoting Wikipedia because it has a nice summary of the latest knowledge on most topics. And also because it's easier than posting links to a hundred different articles. If you want more info, follow the wiki references or Google is your friend.

you can post any lie on Google then go back and quote it. Did you not read in Google about some people trying to counter the gospel of Christ at all cost there spreading lies to suit their claims.

@ sweetnectar and evil brain. Note that Christianity is not just a religion but life in the Holy spirit, if you are not baptized in Him, you will never acknowledge Him much less understand His ways. Holy spirit is real and relevant in modern Christianity.

Apostle Paul reported his conversion experience, did you expect him to lie that it was dictated to him by God?

The bible warns about vain argument in 1 Tim 6 vs 20 and 2 Tim 2 vs 16 - 'but shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness'. He who has ear, let him hear

Read the book of Acts and you will find out that Jesus had another 120 disciples. Many gave their lives to Christ after Jesus died and they were baptized, Jews and Gentiles alike and the gospel spread to many places with thousands giving up their sins and getting baptized in the Holy spirit.
Whoever told you that Jesus had only a handful of followers? Stop spreading lies!

one christian [anony] says he cant understand me. another [iphy42] believes i am clear and direct and he is now asking me to follow Paul.

interesting.

i am going to just guess since i cant read the mind of anony. maybe when the christians say they dont understand me [the often say this], they may just be pretending, because my question really goes to the heart of the matter?

since the muslims are part of the monotheistic family of 3, the correct opinion by the family member [the muslims] is more biting and binding as the truth than when a pagan or atheist make his snide remark.

all i can say is that the Truth is with God Who sent Jesus son of Mary with a Message that God is 1 and He deserves all worships as He commanded.

it is clear that God sent Jesus and gave him what He gave him. Obviously, Jesus didnt have all information. Didnt now everything.

Paul said he saw Jesus. Jesus the prophet of God. should Paul's words stand on its own, especially when it differs fro what Jesus is reported to have said? when Paul differs, we have to accept Jesus as speaking the truth, if he spoke what they recorded him to have said. If what Jesus said is contrary to what Prophets before him and what Angels of God and God would say about God, being the All Knowing, Uniquely and Completely One without partner, mother, father, beginning, ending and not deficient or defective, not needing anything but everyone depending and truly needing Him, then we know that what they say that Jesus said is not from Jesus.

Sweetnecta: one christian [anony] says he cant understand me. another [iphy42] believes i am clear and direct and he is now asking me to follow Paul.

interesting.

i am going to just guess since i cant read the mind of anony. maybe when the christians say they dont understand me [the often say this], they may just be pretending, because my question really goes to the heart of the matter?

since the muslims are part of the monotheistic family of 3, the correct opinion by the family member [the muslims] is more biting and binding as the truth than when a pagan or atheist make his snide remark.

all i can say is that the Truth is with God Who sent Jesus son of Mary with a Message that God is 1 and He deserves all worships as He commanded.

Mind you, i never asked you to follow Paul. Jesus is the one you should follow cos He is the only way to God.

^ correct. only way to God, if I was alive in his time. Sure. I would have followed him, like a shadow.
i would have done the same with Moses if I was alive in his time. I would have rejected the golden calf way.

i was alive in the time of Noah, I would have followed him into the boat.

I am sure Jesus was not the way in the time of Noah or the time of Moses.

Did you pay attention to John who baptized him that he didnt follow Jesus?

That was his contemporary. Is John not on the right path to God?

John the greatest prophet, said Jesus.

la cosa nostra: I was not expecting u to reply me with a question, okay lets assume i knw nothing, will the rapture happen before or after the coming of the antichrist as u understand it nd pls provide some scripture, tnx.

No I don't want to make the assumption that you know nothing because you know something. What I am really interested in is if you have actually tried to read the bible about this or if you are only interested in what Anony has to say about it.
If you have a biblical understanding of what the bible says about it, then please say so. On the other hand if you are completely green on the issue, also say so. That way we can study the bible together.
What I really want to avoid here is a standoff between "La cosa nostra said x" versus "anony said y". I want us to end up with "the bible says." .....so if you are willing, here is my question again:

What does the bible say about the antichrist and the rapture? Have you tried to study about it yourself?

Evil Brain:

From the source of all human knowledge, Wikipedia amongst other places.

[url]en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture[/url]

Fact: There is not a single mention of anything resembling the rapture in any Christian writing, anywhere before the 17th century. For the first 16 whole centuries that Christianity existed, the idea of the rapture never occured to anybody. Founding fathers like Justin Martyr, Origen as well as thousands of "great men of god" pored over the scriptures for 16 centuries, and not a single one of them ever got the notion that all Christians on earth would suddenly disappear along with a bunch of newly undead zombies.

The idea of a rapture first cropped up in England around 1830, most likely originating with a soon to be expelled Presbyterian priest called John Nelson Darby. It bubbled under among the more "spirit-filled" (i.e. crazier) Christians until the turn of the century when it was popularised, like so many other bad things, by the Americans.

It is a very new doctrine. The fact that you're ignorant of this doesnt make it less true.

Lol, but the same Wikipedia lets us know that the first letter of Paul to the Thessalonians which I quoted from was written as far back as AD 52. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_the_Thessalonians

Let me quote for you from the link you gave me:

"The Rapture is a term in Christian eschatology which refers to the "being caught up" discussed in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, when the "dead in Christ" and "we who are alive and remain" will be "caught up in the clouds" to meet "the Lord".......
............Pre-tribulation rapture theology was developed in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible."

So my friend Rapture has been around since the days of Christ, in fact that is what the hope of all Christians is; That Christ will come again for us.
"Pre-tribulation rapture" is John Darby's idea of what rapture is. He thought that the rapture will happen before the tribulation and not after it. That's what became popularized in the early 1900s.

That said, we can now comfortably dismiss your post as fiction and not fact

Evil Brain: ......Fact: Fiction: There is not a single mention of anything resembling the rapture in any Christian writing, anywhere before the 17th century. For the first 16 whole centuries that Christianity existed, the idea of the rapture never occured to anybody. Founding fathers like Justin Martyr, Origen as well as thousands of "great men of god" pored over the scriptures for 16 centuries, and not a single one of them ever got the notion that all Christians on earth would suddenly disappear along with a bunch of newly undead zombies.

Sweetnecta: one christian [anony] says he cant understand me. another [iphy42] believes i am clear and direct and he is now asking me to follow Paul.

interesting.

i am going to just guess since i cant read the mind of anony. maybe when the christians say they dont understand me [the often say this], they may just be pretending, because my question really goes to the heart of the matter?

since the muslims are part of the monotheistic family of 3, the correct opinion by the family member [the muslims] is more biting and binding as the truth than when a pagan or atheist make his snide remark.

all i can say is that the Truth is with God Who sent Jesus son of Mary with a Message that God is 1 and He deserves all worships as He commanded.

it is clear that God sent Jesus and gave him what He gave him. Obviously, Jesus didnt have all information. Didnt now everything.

Paul said he saw Jesus. Jesus the prophet of God. should Paul's words stand on its own, especially when it differs fro what Jesus is reported to have said? when Paul differs, we have to accept Jesus as speaking the truth, if he spoke what they recorded him to have said. If what Jesus said is contrary to what Prophets before him and what Angels of God and God would say about God, being the All Knowing, Uniquely and Completely One without partner, mother, father, beginning, ending and not deficient or defective, not needing anything but everyone depending and truly needing Him, then we know that what they say that Jesus said is not from Jesus.

Your post is mostly just a ramble of allegations and I would rather it was more pointed but all the same, you seem to be quite convinced that Paul's message contradicts Christ's.
I'll ask you to quote one of Paul's such messages that you believe contradicts the message of Christ and then we can look into scripture together and see if indeed it does contradict Christ or not.

Sweetneckta, Mr Red Herring. Rey hails you.

@ Sweetnectar, Thank God u know that Jesus is the only way to God.

The golden calf was an idol that infuriated God. The only representation of Christ Jesus in Moses' time was the brass serpent which many despised and perished anyway. Num 21 9 and Jn 3 vs 14-15.

John testified of Jesus. John lived his whole life preparing people for the coming of Christ. Jn 1 vs 26-27, 29 - 30-36. He acknowledged Jesus as the messiah, as greater than him and as the son of God.

Pls stop this ur propagation of lies. Before engaging in an argument, get your facts right, do not argue based on heresy or better still, read the bible thoroughly urself!

Reyginus: Sweetneckta, Mr Red Herring. Rey hails you.

Hahahahaha Brah Rey, Gbam! You talk well!!!

Ok Anony, hv always believed that the rapture will take place before d tribulation,but of recent a superior in church for that matter said he looked into the arguments of those who said before nd those for after nd he became confuse nd decided that whatever, he will spend enternity with Christ, so i want to knw d argument for those saying before

la cosa nostra: Ok Anony, hv always believed that the rapture will take place before d tribulation,but of recent a superior in church for that matter said he looked into the arguments of those who said before nd those for after nd he became confuse nd decided that whatever, he will spend enternity with Christ, so i want to knw d argument for those saying before

Ok, first of all, forget about "superiors in church" and read the bible for yourself. Christ is our only superior everyone else is just another Christian working out his/her salvation in fear and trembling that's why I always want us to find out what the bible says about it.
Personally I don't see anywhere in the bible that tells me that the rapture will happen before tribulation, if you find such a verse let me know and I'll be happy to break bread with you.

You can read Matthew chapter 24 where Jesus talks about the last days and check out in which order the rapture and tribulation follow.
About the antichrist, The bible talks about the Antichrist(a particular person) and many antichrists(false teachers) in 1John 2:18-22. The job of the Antichrist is to deceive many and if possible, draw the saints away from God.

In Revelations 13, we see the beast -actually two beasts operating at the same time- one is the beast that seeks to put himself in the place of God, and the other is the false prophet that does fake miracles and worships the first beast who we traditionally know to be the Antichrist. The false prophet causes all to receive the mark of the beast (666) by force or else they won't be able to buy and sell. I am sure you are conversant with this story.

Now there is a part of this story which is often overlooked and that is verse 7 of Revelations 13 and it says

"..........It was granted to him(the beast) to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation." Revelations 13:7.

Notice that the beast here is making war against the saints. This would not be possible if they are already raptured at this time.

Now finally, why I am sure the Antichrist will show up before the rapture is in 2 Thessalonians 2. I would suggest you read the whole chapter but I'll just quote an excerpt here:

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Thess 2:3-4

So my brother, this is why I believe that the Antichrist will definitely come before Christ comes again. But do not let your heart be troubled, Christ has overcome the world and he will keep us and the evil one will never be able to snatch us away.

I'll share with you a verse I read this morning and I'll highlight the part that ministered most to me.


Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever.
Amen.
-Jude 1:24-25

[quote author=Mr_Anony]
Ok, first of all, forget about "superiors in church" and read the bible for yourself. Christ is our only superior everyone else is just another Christian working out his/her salvation in fear and trembling that's why I always want us to find out what the bible says about it.
Personally I don't see anywhere in the bible that tells me that the rapture will happen before tribulation, if you find such a verse let me know and I'll be happy to break bread with you.

You can read Matthew chapter 24 where Jesus talks about the last days and check out in which order the rapture and tribulation follow.
About the antichrist, The bible talks about the Antichrist(a particular person) and many antichrists(false teachers) in 1John 2:18-22. The job of the Antichrist is to deceive many and if possible, draw the saints away from God.

In Revelations 13, we see the beast -actually two beasts operating at the same time- one is the beast that seeks to put himself in the place of God, and the other is the false prophet that does fake miracles and worships the first beast who we traditionally know to be the Antichrist. The false prophet causes all to receive the mark of the beast (666) by force or else they won't be able to buy and sell. I am sure you are conversant with this story.

Now there is a part of this story which is often overlooked and that is verse 7 of Revelations 13 and it says

"..........It was granted to him(the beast) to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation." Revelations 13:7.

Notice that the beast here is making war against the saints. This would not be possible if they are already raptured at this time.

Now finally, why I am sure the Antichrist will show up before the rapture is in 2 Thessalonians 2. I would suggest you read the whole chapter but I'll just quote an excerpt here:

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Thess 2:3-4

So my brother, this is why I believe that the Antichrist will definitely come before Christ comes again. But do not let your heart be troubled, Christ has overcome the world and he will keep us and the evil one will never be able to snatch us away.

I'll share with you a verse I read this morning and I'll highlight the part that ministered most to me.


Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever.
Amen.
-Jude 1:24-25
[/quote
Amen.U knw d portion of d bible that says d mystery doth abound but he who stops it shall continue untill he is taken out of d way,pls explain.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, but the same Wikipedia lets us know that the first letter of Paul to the Thessalonians which I quoted from was written as far back as AD 52. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_the_Thessalonians

Let me quote for you from the link you gave me:

"The Rapture is a term in Christian eschatology which refers to the "being caught up" discussed in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, when the "dead in Christ" and "we who are alive and remain" will be "caught up in the clouds" to meet "the Lord".......
............Pre-tribulation rapture theology was developed in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible."

So my friend Rapture has been around since the days of Christ, in fact that is what the hope of all Christians is; That Christ will come again for us.
"Pre-tribulation rapture" is John Darby's idea of what rapture is. He thought that the rapture will happen before the tribulation and not after it. That's what became popularized in the early 1900s.

That said, we can now comfortably dismiss your post as fiction and not fact

You people are misinterpreting Thessalonians, that's my point. One person came up with an attractive,but incorrect interpretation and you people swallowed it whole without chewing.

That's what usually happens with religious matters. Religion isn't grounded in reality so people just believe whatever rubbish they like on "faith basis" and it is impossible to convince them otherwise. Everybody now believes in this rapture nonsense, so it must be true even though the scriptural evidence is tenuous at best. Religious people don't need silly things like evidence. They just believe.

Mörons.