The truth is that these satanists, atheists and co have no gospel to preach, so they just try to rubbish the Gospel of Christ by engaging Christians in vain arguments which are shallow, watery and baseless.

Arguing with them will leave u empty to no avail as they have no intent of changing their ways.

Rapture is real, and i thank God that it not going to be a secret thing as all eyes shall behold Jesus.

If you feel threatened or uncomfortable, then give your life to Christ now that there is still time to do so.

iphy42: The truth is that these satanists, atheists and co have no gospel to preach, so they just try to rubbish the Gospel of Christ by engaging Christians in vain arguments which are shallow, watery and baseless.

Arguing with them will leave u empty to no avail as they have no intent of changing their ways.

Rapture is real, and i thank God that it not going to be a secret thing as all eyes shall behold Jesus.

If you feel threatened or uncomfortable, then give your life to Christ now that there is still time to do so.

Another one coming with her threats.
Hahaha. Your cohorts have been expecting to be raptured since 2000 years but reality is beginning to set in. Jizz-Us lied to all of you.

advocate666:

Another one coming with her threats.
Hahaha. Your cohorts have been expecting to be raptured since 2000 years but reality is beginning to set in. Jizz-Us lied to all of you.

Lol. You still can't deal with your the-earth-is-round-therefore-rapture-is-impossible smartness, can you?

Ihedinobi:

Lol. You still can't deal with your the-earth-is-round-therefore-rapture-is-impossible smartness, can you?

No mate, it is you who can't come to terms with such simple logic.

advocate666:

No mate, it is you who can't come to terms with such simple logic.

Logic that you apparently have zero appreciation of.

Ihedinobi:

Logic that you apparently have zero appreciation of.

Why don't you debate it then?

advocate666:

Why don't you debate it then?

Debate what? Have you stated a clear position yet?

Ihedinobi:

Debate what? Have you stated a clear position yet?

Yes. That the idea of a rapture as told by christians is not possible with a round earth. Because as soon as things start going up, they distance themself from each other indefinetely and can only converge if they stop going up and start moving sideways. So I ask you, is your rapture an upward movement or a sideways movement?

advocate666:
Yes. That the idea of a rapture as told by christians is not possible with a round earth. Because as soon as things start going up, they distance themself from each other indefinetely and can only converge if they stop going up and start moving sideways. So I ask you, is your rapture an upward movement or a sideways movement?

Lol. And did I not ask you how cardinal points fit into the science of the shape of the earth?

Ihedinobi:

Lol. And did I not ask you how cardinal points fit into the science of the shape of the earth?

I answered. Anyway what's your point? I have explained my stance. Please explain how cardinal points debunk what I said.

Ihedinobi: What does the latter part of Matt 24 mean?

And the parables of Matt 25?

Why does and how does the 144000 precede the countless multitudes in heaven?

What is the meaning of the manchild being snatched up to heaven out of reach of the dragon while his brethren are left and available to have war made against them by the same dragon?

aarrrww, should be back to this before the year runs out, God willing. BTW, tomorrow is another day that Jesus will not come.

Image123:
aarrrww, should be back to this before the year runs out, God willing. BTW, tomorrow is another day that Jesus will not come.

Lol

Ihedinobi:

Lol

Lol x 2

Ihedinobi:

Lol

Ha! You still here but won't answer my question.
Soldier!

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advocate666:

Ha! You still here but won't answer my question.
Soldier!

Oh that. I beg you'll excuse me: I find argument with you guys excruciatingly boring nowadays.

Suffice it to say that you have the wrong understanding of the nature of life.

Ihedinobi:

Oh that. I beg you'll excuse me: I find argument with you guys excruciatingly boring nowadays.

Suffice it to say that you have the wrong understanding of the nature of life.

Who wants to argue with you? You are the one that attacked a valid point that I made and when I asked you to substantiate your attack, you ran away.

Please continue to do what you soldiers of christ are very good at: RUNNING AND HIDING!

advocate666:

Who wants to argue with you? You are the one that attacked a valid point that I made and when I asked you to substantiate your attack, you ran away.

Please continue to do what you soldiers of christ are very good at: RUNNING AND HIDING!

Yeah, whatever, man. Any day I screw up the enthusiasm, I'll deal with your matter.

Ihedinobi:

Yeah, whatever, man. Any day I screw up the enthusiasm, I'll deal with your matter.

When google can help you out, you mean?

okay, i said i'll come back to this. Firstly, please permit me to CLEARLY state that no man has perfect or 100% sure knowledge of the endtime events. They are shrouded in mystery and symbols and prophecy. That i agree or disagree with any view or your view(IN THIS SCOPE) is not proof that i'm your enemy or brother. Some of Jesus' disciples thought they'd be alive by the time of Christ's return, some thought John beloved would be alive until the time. Some things are just harder than others, simples. FOCUS ON THE BOLDED WITH REGARDS TO WHAT I JUST SAID.
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

With regards to the Rapture, i think the more important thing is to be ready. Many of the first century christians hardly knew all these theology/eschatology to be saved e.g the thief on the cross and the ethiopian eunuch.

What does the latter part of Matt 24 mean?

Please, let us put it in mind that the Rapture is a brief event(twinkle of an eye) as compared to what we usually call the Second coming of Christ. The Rapture, and the Second coming are two separate events. In the rapture, there is a catching UP to meet the Lord in the air. In the second coming, there is a touch DOWN, on Mount Olives as it were and for a longer period. Please bear the differences i n mind in the reading and interpretation/context of scriptures. i say this as it is combined often and similar.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
This is largely talking about the Rapture, though similar can be argued for the Second Coming.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
This verse more clearly shows that the Rapture is what Christ is referring to here.

And the parables of Matt 25?

The parables of Matthew 25 focus on rewards. It teaches us that there will be rewards in Heaven based on what we have done on earth. Getting to the kingdom of Heaven is not exactly the ultimate but having good rewards.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

God wants His children to obtain a FULL reward in Heaven, not just to get to Heaven. So many believers are complacent with being born again, there is no growth or pressing forward, or consecration. Many people want to know if they will go to hell for doing certain things. While they may not exactly go to hell, they will not get the rewards some others will get for their commitment and desire to fully obeying the Word of God with their hearts and sincerity.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The Matt 25 parables encourage us to go for a reward, and pictures to us that complacency can be as dangerous as entirely losing Heaven.

Why does and how does the 144000 precede the countless multitudes in heaven?

It should be noted that the 144000 are not the first humans to get to Heaven. Getting to Heaven appears to be in batches, which brings strong support for the rapture pre-tribulation team. Consider,
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Here we have people from all nation and tongue, redeemed and in Heaven before the 144000. The 144000 are much touted as the human 'owners' of heaven, even though the scripture hardly records them as being in Heaven. BTW, i also believe that they will get to Heaven.

What is the meaning of the manchild being snatched up to heaven out of reach of the dragon while his brethren are left and available to have war made against them by the same dragon?

i don't fully subscribe that Revelations is fully chronological. Neither are most prophecies, whether OT or NT.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Permit me, i consider myself quite simple and straight as regards my interpretation of the Revelations. Not too conspiracytheory minded oresoteric. I believe the man child is Jesus Christ and the woman is the nation of Israel.
These are my basics as regards the questions my brother. feel free to ask for clarifications.

.....creeps into the room, silently takes a seat at the corner of the room........pulls out jotter and pen and observes the discussion in quietness.

Mr_Anony: .....creeps into the room, silently takes a seat at the corner of the room........pulls out jotter and pen and observes the discussion in quietness.

international observer ba? Contribute jare, nobody don turn omni for hia.

Image123:
international observer ba? Contribute jare, nobody don turn omni for hia.

lol, please sir could you say that again, I really need to write it down.

Happy New Year guys. I'm so very sorry I haven't been here and this thread was quite important to me, but a combination of factors made checking in an impossibility.

@Image123, thank you so much for returning like you promised. I really am grateful that you did.

Image123: okay, i said i'll come back to this. Firstly, please permit me to CLEARLY state that no man has perfect or 100% sure knowledge of the endtime events. They are shrouded in mystery and symbols and prophecy. That i agree or disagree with any view or your view(IN THIS SCOPE) is not proof that i'm your enemy or brother. Some of Jesus' disciples thought they'd be alive by the time of Christ's return, some thought John beloved would be alive until the time. Some things are just harder than others, simples. FOCUS ON THE BOLDED WITH REGARDS TO WHAT I JUST SAID.
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

I very much agree with you, my brother. However I know who you are and am at peace with your contribution.

With regards to the Rapture, i think the more important thing is to be ready. Many of the first century christians hardly knew all these theology/eschatology to be saved e.g the thief on the cross and the ethiopian eunuch.

I agree. My interest in eschatology was once upon a time because I wanted to increase my "knowledgeableness" in the Scriptures, but today, it is because of the Great Purpose of the Salvation that we have received. Why have we been saved? Why have we been called? What was worth the blood of the Son of God? Or rather, what made us worth such an enormous sacrifice? And, evidently, the beginning of a thing is bound up with its end.

Please, let us put it in mind that the Rapture is a brief event(twinkle of an eye) as compared to what we usually call the Second coming of Christ. The Rapture, and the Second coming are two separate events. In the rapture, there is a catching UP to meet the Lord in the air. In the second coming, there is a touch DOWN, on Mount Olives as it were and for a longer period. Please bear the differences i n mind in the reading and interpretation/context of scriptures. i say this as it is combined often and similar.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
This is largely talking about the Rapture, though similar can be argued for the Second Coming.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
This verse more clearly shows that the Rapture is what Christ is referring to here.

Again I agree. I was troubled about it for a bit, but I remember now an event of which the Scriptures spoke saying that the Lord will return with His Saints and to be admired in them.

The parables of Matthew 25 focus on rewards. It teaches us that there will be rewards in Heaven based on what we have done on earth. Getting to the kingdom of Heaven is not exactly the ultimate but having good rewards.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

God wants His children to obtain a FULL reward in Heaven, not just to get to Heaven. So many believers are complacent with being born again, there is no growth or pressing forward, or consecration. Many people want to know if they will go to hell for doing certain things. While they may not exactly go to hell, they will not get the rewards some others will get for their commitment and desire to fully obeying the Word of God with their hearts and sincerity.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The Matt 25 parables encourage us to go for a reward, and pictures to us that complacency can be as dangerous as entirely losing Heaven.

I freely admiy that I find this the sweetest and most intriguing part. For some reason, everytime I hear or think about that which is yet to come, I am enlivened on the inside and very excited.

What do you know of the reward? Why is it such a grievous thing to lose? So grievous in fact that loss of it is very easily even if erroneously equated to losing salvation completely? It seems to me that this reward is why the Spirit goes to great lengths to open up the significance of times and seasons to us.

It should be noted that the 144000 are not the first humans to get to Heaven. Getting to Heaven appears to be in batches, which brings strong support for the rapture pre-tribulation team. Consider,
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Here we have people from all nation and tongue, redeemed and in Heaven before the 144000. The 144000 are much touted as the human 'owners' of heaven, even though the scripture hardly records them as being in Heaven. BTW, i also believe that they will get to Heaven.

You know, I hadn't realized that they were not recorded as being in heaven. It's a good thing to note to avoid going beyond that which is written. In any case, Rev 14 did all that was necessary to identify them in verse 4. They are the firstfruits of the labor of the Lamb from among men. And, like you rightly said, we're not in chronological sequence in these councils of God. I believe that they're those of every generation who did not cease from pressing on until they had come into all the Fullness of Christ, no matter what it cost them. A prime example, I'd say, is Paul.

i don't fully subscribe that Revelations is fully chronological. Neither are most prophecies, whether OT or NT.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Permit me, i consider myself quite simple and straight as regards my interpretation of the Revelations. Not too conspiracytheory minded oresoteric. I believe the man child is Jesus Christ and the woman is the nation of Israel.
These are my basics as regards the questions my brother. feel free to ask for clarifications.

Sorry, I couldn't respond to the rest of your post because my phone browser has issues with writing in the text box. Beyond a certain point, the cursor is completely out of my control and the text will not come up so that I can see what I'm doing.

Anyhow, like I have already said, I agree that not all of Revelations is in chronological sequence. In fact, it appears to me that some of it are repetitions for emphasis. And that is quite like the Lord.

As for the man-child issue, that Jesus is exalted to the Right Hand of Majesty may help argument for your hypothesis but the fact that Jesus speaks of His Saints sharing in His Throne and therefore His Power and Position says that the man-child could refer to Jesus Christ or His Saints or both. In other words, another argument is needed for distinction among the options. The other thing that you have said is that the woman described is the nation of Israel. If you mean the political or ethnic entity called Israel and are right, then the man-child can only be Jesus Christ. But if you're wrong, then the options are still open. So the question is, are you right or wrong?

To answer this, we must consider the woman and what was said of her. She is said to be crowned with twelve stars, clothed with the sun and to have the moon under her feet. I think it is obvious, especially considering that John said so himself, that all of that is symbolic language. So the question arises: can all that be said of the political nation Israel? If yes, how so? If no, why not? In the event that it cannot, the question arises: of whom can it be truly said?

The answer to those questions will say whom the man-child must be. And when we know, we can tell who her other children are and why there appears a distinction between them.

I'm extremely grateful that you are a straight person with regard to discussions such as this. That means that you'll be able to at least sense when things are getting bent out of shape. I imagine that you don't sense that in my questions.

my oga, HAPPY NEW YEAR. Nothing unusual or bent in your post. No qualms about your phone browser.

Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? 37:11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

keep this passage in the frame.

Image123: Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mothIer and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? 37:11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

keep this passage in the frame.

Ok. If we work with this passage, we may interpret the woman as being clothed with Israel the man, crowned with his twelve sons who sired thw tribes and has Rachel under her feet. Sounds a bit strange to me, pardon my saying so. And it still leaves us wondering who could be described thus.

There is a sense, however, in which the passage appears to help. It is the sense in which Israel the nation was a type of the Church. Do you get my meaning?

yep i get. Though the church is often typified as a bride or virgin, while other nations/countries are synbolised by woman /her. As an aside, i read the sun AND moon under, and i think you mean Rebecca,

Image123: yep i get. Though the church is often typified as a bride or virgin, while other nations/countries are synbolised by woman /her. As an aside, i read the sun AND moon under, and i think you mean Rebecca,

Yes, the Church is a bride and a virgin one too. Both tend to be women as well.

About the aside, I'm not sure I get what you said about the sun and moon being under. The woman in Revelations 12 was clothed with the sun and had the moon under her feet. And Joseph's mom was Rachel, Rebecca was his grandmom.

Moving on, I submit that the woman in Rev 12 is the Church and her child is the company of the Lamb's firstfruits. If God wills, I will pick this up on the other side of the sun. I must go to bed now.

hahahaha, the asides was, well, aside. my mistake.