When Was Jesus Born? - Religion - Nairaland
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| When Was Jesus Born? by therationa(m): 3:47pm On Feb 17, 2008 |
I have shown in one of my previous threads that we do not know exactly when Jesus is supposed to have been crucified - one gospel says it was the day before passover while another says it was on the day of passover. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665. As unlikely as it would have been to hold such a trial and crucifixion on the feast of the passover, not least because there were laws regulating the activities over the passover period, the problem of the day of his crucifixion still remains unresolved. For the record, let it be known that neither the secular nor clerical scholars have been able to explain this anomaly from a historical standpoint. There are no other external sources besides the bible that attest to the crucifixion of a character with any likeness to Jesus. Crucifixion of common criminal were two-a-penny in the first century Judea, so if Jesus had been lumped into the brigand of criminals executed and displayed along the highways, it would have been unlikely to have caused much note to nobody but his closest of companions. In this thread, I want to deal with the events as reported in the gospel, around the birth of Jesus to see the extend to which the corroborate with the historical records of the time. It is only by checking the gospel against external independent source can we gain an appreciation as to its reliability. I am going to be looking at the Nativity narratives as reported in Matthew and Luke. My approach is going to be the following. Firstly, I am going to compare the two narratives for internal consistency of the main events. Secondly, I am going to look at what other external independent source have bearing on the actualities of the period. OK, here we go; Firstly, let us compare the two narratives as given in Matthew 2: 1-8 and Luke 2: 1-8. They are given below; [table] [tr][td]Matthew 2:1-8[/td][td]Luke 2: 1-8[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,[/td][td]And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.[/td][td]([And] this taxing was first made when Cyrenius[Quirinius] was governor of Syria.)[/td][/tr] [tr][td]When Herod the king had heard [these things], he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.[/td][td]And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.[/td][/tr] [tr][td]And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.[/td][td]And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David  [/td][/tr][tr][td]And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,[/td][td]To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.[/td][/tr] [tr][td]And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.[/td][td]And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.[/td][td]And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.[/td][/tr] [tr][td]And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found [him], bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.[/td][td]And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.[/td][/tr] [/table] Now, that is the biblical account. Jesus was born when Herod The Great was the King of Judea (Matt) and Quirinius was the governor (legate) of Syria, a Roman province in the 1st century. Nice, clean, cut and dry; OK? Let's turn our attentions now to the historical evidence. Herod the Great ( 73 - 4 BCE) was King of the Roman client Kingdom of Judea from 37 - 4 BCE. He died in 4 BCE and was succeeded by his son Archelaus as King (In fact his kingdom was split amongst his sons, but that is not material to the issue). So if the account in Matthew is correct, we would expect Jesus to be born before Herod was dead, that is, before 4BCE. Let's turn to the account in Luke 2. According to Luke, Jesus was born when Quirinius was the legate of Syria, at a period when the Roman Emperor Augustus had ordered a census. As a matter of historical fact, Quirinius did not become legate of Syria until 6 CE. And the first census was held in the year 6 CE, in the reign of Quirinius. This is what the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops have to say about it. Although universal registrations of Roman citizens are attested in 28 B.C., 8 B.C., and A.D. 14 and enrollments in individual provinces of those who are not Roman citizens are also attested, such a universal census of the Roman world under Caesar Augustus is unknown outside the New Testament. Moreover, there are notorious historical problems connected with Luke's dating the census when Quirinius was governor of Syria, and the various attempts to resolve the difficulties have proved unsuccessful. P. Sulpicius Quirinius became legate of the province of Syria in A.D. 6-7 when Judea was annexed to the province of Syria. At that time, a provincial census of Judea was taken up. If Quirinius had been legate of Syria previously, it would have to have been before 10 B.C. because the various legates of Syria from 10 B.C. to 4 B.C. (the death of Herod) are known, and such a dating for an earlier census under Quirinius would create additional problems for dating the beginning of Jesus' ministry (Luke 3:1, 23). A previous legateship after 4 B.C. (and before A.D. 6) would not fit with the dating of Jesus' birth in the days of Herod (Luke 1:5; Matthew 2:1). Luke may simply be combining Jesus' birth in Bethlehem with his vague recollection of a census under Quirinius (see also Acts 5:37) to underline the significance of this birth for the whole Roman world: through this child born in Bethlehem peace and salvation come to the empire. Source: (http://nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/luke/luke2.htm) So as a matter of historical fact, there is CONTRADICTION of at least 10 years in the gospel accounts. Either Jesus was born in Herod reign which would have to have been before 4BCE OR he was born when Quirinius was legate in Syria in 6 CE. It is one OR the other OR neither. In anycase, one of the gospel accouns has got to be wrong. Over the years, various Christian apologists have sought ways of reconciles both accounts with historical evidence. No plausible accounts have been found that harmonise the gospel accounts with the historical facts. These apologetical accounts have ranged from things like; 1) Quirinius may have been legate twice. But there is no historical evidence for this. In fact, all his predecessors and successors are well known, some of whom are Titius, Sentius Saturninus, Quintilius Varus. 2) That Quirinius was a common Roman name. Well that may be so, but only one Quirinius appears in the list of Syria legates 3) That a census could have taken place about 8 BCE. But that too would leave a lot more problems regarding the age at which Jesus started his ministry (22 years) etc etc So I hope I have shown that we cannot trust the gospel for an accurate account of its own theology, nevermind the history of events around the time it was set. This leave us not knowing exactly when this character called Jesus was born. And he was supposed to be a god who has inspired his own very books about his mission on earth. I wonder what sort of addled mind it take to believe in this rubbish? ===================================================================================================== Some of my other threads The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006 When Was Jesus Born? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus [/b]13012dg https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529 [b] Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? Let's Look At The Evidence. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html What Are Your Chances Of Being Saved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113283.0.html Who Wrote The Gospels And When Were They Written? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113277.0.html#msg1962589 God Selects The Rulers Of Countries; G W Bush, Sadam, Pol Pot, Abacha, Hitler https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113186.0.html#msg1961537 Cannibalism In The Bible: Det 28:53-57, Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lam 4:10 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113181.0.html#msg1961343 What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617 Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html How Is Salvation Achieved? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632 Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426 Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340 Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311 When Was Jesus Crucified? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665 On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam) https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353 Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528 Where Did Sin Originate? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291 For The Non-beleivers Only, 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957 Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919 On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631 Has Atheism Got Principle? No https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180 It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940 Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682 Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268 Great Books About Non-belief https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935 Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg1942137 Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992 What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God? https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928 Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155 Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099 Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975 Genesis Vs Genetics https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655 Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.html Jesus Genealogy https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616 £300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508 Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160 ==================================================================================================== |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by 4Him(m): 3:51pm On Feb 17, 2008 |
therationa: i must have missed where u "showed" this. therationa: Yeah you've "shown" us someone else's depraved viewpoint. We dont ever get to read YOUR OWN careful analysis of ur topics. therationa: it was never compulsory to believe the bible. I wonder why u're breaking sweat over it, just pick up a copy of shakespeare and leave us alone. |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by 4Him(m): 4:16pm On Feb 17, 2008 |
therationa: you shld just be grateful u're not one of those addled minds. I'm just wondering what sort of addled mind is so preoccupied with something he claims not to believe in. |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by stimulus(m): 4:35pm On Feb 17, 2008 |
therationa: On Jesus Genealogy: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111222.32.html#msg1942568) (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111222.32.html#msg1942609) (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111222.32.html#msg1948298) (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111222.64.html#msg1950177) (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111222.64.html#msg1950188) (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111222.64.html#msg1950363) On your disclaimer: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html#msg1963913) (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113033.0.html#msg1963907) |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by Horus(m): 4:53pm On Feb 17, 2008 |
[quote author=therationa link=topic=113449.msg1965324#msg1965324 date=1203259631] I have shown in one of my previous threads that we do not know exactly when Jesus is supposed to have been crucified - one gospel says it was the day before passover while another says it was on the day of passover. [/QUOTE] The problem is that the Romans added 2 months to our 10 months calendar and now they messed up the time. 1- Emperor Jullius Ceasar added Jully. 2- Emperor Augustus added August. |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by ow11(m): 6:32pm On Feb 17, 2008 |
@poster R u insinuating the bible is doctored? well if one of the gospels is a lie, why should i believe ur historical evidence? I wish there were satellite TV's in those days,all these confusion wouldnt occur! |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by therationa(m): 8:15pm On Feb 17, 2008 |
Anybody knows when Jesus was born? |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by luvus: 2:27pm On Feb 18, 2008 |
Anybody knows when Jesus was born? please anyone knows when [b]the poster [/b]was born?   |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by huxley(m): 11:54pm On May 26, 2008 |
Have there been any developments in discovering when Jesus was born? |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by syrup(f): 1:01am On May 27, 2008 |
It seems rather curious and out of place that you posit queries and are unable to hold your ground when answers are given. Has it always been that way with you? Just wondering, because most of your threads seem to follow that pattern.  |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by huxley(m): 8:36am On May 27, 2008 |
syrup: It would have been more interesting if you had really tried to answer the question. No answers have been forthcoming on this thread so far! |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by syrup(f): 1:11pm On May 27, 2008 |
@huxley, huxley: I could do precisely that. A few moments since discovering your several threads, I took time to see the sort of discussant you make and sadly found that you really are not seeking a rational discourse. Perhaps I should have listened to those who warned me earlier - but I wanted to prove you for myself. Plagiarism, in my view, is beggarly and unfortunately absurd - because it gives the plagiarist every excuse to pretend the scholarship as his/her own until they begin to make disclaimers to where they are unable to hold rational discourses. That is the sort of thing that struck me in many of your threads - I don't see you holding your ground when attempts were made to offer answers. One other thing that struck me is this: huxley: This is pitiful, huxley. Why this immature pretences of "no answers" when several have been pointed out? I carefully went through this thread in particular and visited the links stimulus offered: stimulus: How on earth you could claim that there have been "no answers" is beyond me! That is sadly bordering to . . . well, duplicity! The one thing you could have said better was that you were not satisfied with the answers offered - and then seriously articulate your own points rather than ducking behind other authors whose articles you shlepped unto. Could I safely conclude that you take time to present yourself in a more amicable and responsible light in your claims? I trust this is not a difficult request to make. Blessings. |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by huxley(m): 1:29pm On May 27, 2008 |
syrup: First, do you know what plagiarism means. Check out some of the previous threads where I had this accusation made against me. When I pointed out that where I used other's materials, it was duly and properly referenced. This is NOT called plagiarism. I even had Stimulus withdraw his charge of plagiarism. I thought that was very magnanimous of him. Now I an having you making the same charge. OK, my challenge to you is this; Can you prove that I have plagiarise material (using the standard academic definition of the word) HAVE YOU NOTICED WHAT THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD IS? IT IS "WHEN WAS JESUS BORN" What do answers about Jesus Genealogy got to do with WHEN he was born? You see the point I am making? You are repeating exactly the same thing the others guys did. You fail to answer the question. When I start a different thread to deal with your mis-directioning the thread, you accuse me of evasion. Who really is evading the questions? I have not seen your own answers forthcoming here, have I? |
| Re: When Was Jesus Born? by syrup(f): 3:32pm On May 27, 2008 |
huxley: Pretty same responses you've in the other thread that leaves us on just the same point. See: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113676.32.html#msg2303633 |
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