How did Oba of Benin get to ife? Was it through Lagos Benin express way? Historians stop confusing dis igeneration.

kopite: How did Oba of Benin get to ife? Was it through Lagos Benin express way? Historians stop confusing dis igeneration.

LMAO

he has conflated Ogiso with Ogiamien and built an argument around his own deliberate confusions in the hope that his readers won't notice or will be too ignorant to care that the Ogiamien is not the same as the Ogiso. The very reason Ogiamien could not rule in the Ogiso's place is because he was not recognized as having that kind of authority and was in fact a subordinate chief to a rival and only became prominent in the period after the last Ogiso's reign.

PhysicsQED,

Please educate us. Is Ogiso a name like Ogiamien? Ogiso were the family of rulers in Edo and Ogiamien was an Edo reagent. Edo rulers were Ogiso. Is Aresa supposed to quote everything he read and heard word for word or is that not an oral history told by many in Benin. Which of them was he supposed to quote?

Disprove if you can that Oba of Benin was not the son of Alafin or the point that Oba of Benin rent or lease the land from the children of Ogiso, please.

Jara, I think you might have missed my point slightly. I am not saying that he has to quote every single thing that he reads word for word - paraphrasing is fine.

But he deliberately altered the original quote without citing where he got the quote from or showing that he had altered it in a significant way to have a different meaning. I am not saying that he is really inherently intellectually dishonest - I don't know his character or know him personally - he could just have deliberately confused himself in his eagerness to make his argument. All I am saying is that if I lifted a quote from an essay for my own essay, and on top of that, modified the quote, I would at least disclose that I did so to those who were reading what I wrote. I also think it is a bit strange to alter things like that, knowing that the original statement can be easily found.

On the questions you asked:

1. If the person who was the Oba of Benin's forefather was an Alaafin at the time of coming to Benin, then maybe I would agree with it, but since it seems he wasn't, then I don't see why I should agree with the claim. If you had said the Oba of Benin was a grandson of the then reigning Ooni, I wouldn't even have disagreed with it, but there seems to be no real sense of the Alaafin being a "father" to the Oba of Benin. For example, even in one of the precolonial writings about the connection between the Alaafin of Oyo and the Oba of Benin that we come across from those who interviewed the Alaafin's court directly, we see the two monarchs actually described as "brothers" and then as friends. If you want to talk about descent from the then prince Oranmiyan, that's fine, but I simply think that if he were really an Alaafin at the time of coming to Benin, then maybe this "father-son" relationship might actually have been remembered and they wouldn't have been described repeatedly as "brothers" as far as what their relationship was.


2. On Ogiamien, I don't see how Ogiamien could have represented the Ogiso or the Ogiso's claim to the land when Ogiamien was just a separate chief, who, after becoming prominent while serving as an administrator, tried to usurp power in the absence of a reigning Ogiso. If Ogiamien was actually descended from an Ogiso or somehow represented the Ogiso's interests, then maybe Aresa might have a point there.

I do not need to "disprove if I can" the idea of "renting land from the children of Ogiso" because the claim doesn't make sense. The part of the land which Ogiamien's family owned, and which Oba Ewedo took, is the part of the land which is symbolically resold. Ogiamien did not even own all the land then, and anyway, "the Oba owns the land" is the understanding of the relationship of the king to the land in Benin and the meaning of that is pretty clear.

Is this physics?

I cant believe my eyes, "physics in nairaland"! It takes a story on Bini to get you out here. Well, since your roots are in Ife when you see us talking Oduduwa come out and do owambe sometime.

^
lol, I might drop in a few more times that this general topic is discussed. However, I do want to minimize my future posting on Nairaland so that I can gradually wean myself off this site. It's addictive, but I think I want to make posting on here a rarer thing and then gradually move on completely.

PhysicsQED: Jara, I think you might have missed my point slightly. I am not saying that he has to quote every single thing that he reads word for word - paraphrasing is fine.

But he deliberately altered the original quote without citing where he got the quote from or showing that he had altered it in a significant way to have a different meaning. I am not saying that he is really inherently intellectually dishonest - I don't know his character or know him personally - he could just have deliberately confused himself in his eagerness to make his argument. All I am saying is that if I lifted a quote from an essay for my own essay, and on top of that, modified the quote, I would at least disclose that I did so to those who were reading what I wrote. I also think it is a bit strange to alter things like that, knowing that the original statement can be easily found.

On the questions you asked:

1. If the person who was the Oba of Benin's forefather was an Alaafin at the time of coming to Benin, then maybe I would agree with it, but since it seems he wasn't, then I don't see why I should agree with the claim. If you said the Oba of Benin was a grandson of the reigning Ooni, I wouldn't even have disagreed with it, but there seems to be no real sense of the Alaafin being a "father" to the Oba of Benin. For example, even in one of the precolonial writings about the connection between the Alaafin of Oyo and the Oba of Benin that we come across from those who interviewed the Alaafin's court directly, we see the two monarchs actually described as "brothers" and then as friends. If you want to talk about descent from the then prince Oranmiyan, that's fine, but I simply think that if he were really an Alaafin at the time of coming to Benin, then maybe this "father-son" relationship might actually have been remembered and they wouldn't have been described repeatedly as "brothers" as far as what their relationship was.


2. On Ogiamien, I don't see how Ogiamien could have represented the Ogiso or the Ogiso's claim to the land when Ogiamien was just a separate chief, who, after becoming prominent while serving as an administrator, tried to usurp power in the absence of a reigning Ogiso. If Ogiamien was actually descended from an Ogiso or somehow represented the Ogiso's interests, then maybe Aresa might have a point there.

I do not need to "disprove if I can" the idea of "renting land from the children of Ogiso" because the claim doesn't make sense. The part of the land which Ogiamien's family owned, and which Oba Ewedo took, is the part of the land which is symbolically resold. Ogiamien did not even own all the land then, and anyway, "the Oba owns the land" is the understanding of the relationship of the king to the land in Benin and the meaning of that is pretty clear.

PhysicsQED,

I am happy with your explanation of form over substance. I just don't know if Aresa might have been aware of that particular quote when it is freely available in every Edo family as oral and written history.

Since we are not talking personalities here, because in real life, the present Oba of Benin may be older than Alafin. We are talking about Oramiyan that named Ile-ibinu as the father of Owomika. Whether he became Alafin later does not disprove the fact that he remained the father. So how could father and son become brothers?

The land Ogiamien sold to Oba belonged to Ogiso, not to him. My brother what are we arguing about? We are one family. We should not let semantics and form prevail over substance to divide us. Aresa has no blame here since your quote even support him but you do not like him using Ogiso instead of Ogiamien. Is Ogiamiem not acting as reagent or real estate agent for Ogiso land?

gbanikiti: Very interesting history i must confess.i wanna know the story of how Oduduwa fell from the sky.

You need to also investigate the Yoruba word "ka ana ko" and "egbe or ofe", then I would give you the answer to your question.

jara: PhysicsQED,

I am happy with your explanation of form over substance. I just don't know if Aresa might have been aware of that particular quote when it is freely available in every Edo family as oral and written history.

Well, I don't think it would be plausible to say that he got the quote from some particular Edo family's written or oral account but somehow made it look exactly as if he had lifted the quote from Osahon's essay and then modified it.

Since we are not talking personalities here, because in real life, the present Oba of Benin may be older than Alafin. We are talking about Oramiyan that named Ile-ibinu as the father of Owomika. Whether he became Alafin later does not disprove the fact that he remained the father. So how could father and son become brothers?

So the Alaafin's court was unaware of this supposed father-son relationship and they chose the word "brother" because they didn't know what the connection was?

There is no sense of the Alaafin, as a king, being a "father" to the Oba of Benin. This entire idea of Aresa's is predicated upon the idea that Oranmiyan became the first Alafin of Oyo, but that claim is itself questionable.

If you read Egharevba's main book (Aresa has referenced Egharevba as well in another essay of his where he mentions this general issue in passing, but I am not sure he has read it either, especially considering this recent claim from him), you will see where it is claimed in there that Oranmiyan was reigning as the Ooni of Ife after returning from Benin, and that the first Alaafin of Oyo was his (Oranmiyan's) son. Since Egharevba states clearly that Oranmiyan's son became Alafin while he was reigning as Ooni, I doubt that a modern Edo person can be accused of being a "Benin revisionist" if they hold that this is what happened and cite Egharevba's work as the source. Of course, there might be some Benin tradition somewhere that is contrary to this, and that is fine, but for now, let us assume that chief Egharevba got it right (as far as recording what Edo tradition held) on that issue.

So in other words, assuming that the tradition Egharevba recorded was what Benin tradition really held, then not only Ife tradition, but also Benin tradition actually holds that Oranmiyan became king at Ife and that it was one of his sons who became the first Alaafin while he was reigning at Ife, not Oranmiyan himself. But then again, Egharevba used several sources - maybe one of his sources had a pro-Ife bias? Maybe if his source had instead had a pro-Oyo bias he might have written differently?

Maybe not. Consider Samuel Johnson's History of the Yorubas - which has been noted by several scholars to be biased toward Oyo over Ife - where Johnson claims that the king at Ife was not the Ooni, but was actually the "Alafin of Ife." Johnson claims that the Ooni was the son of a sacrificial victim and a kind of caretaker and priest appointed by the Alafin, and also states early on in the book that Oranyan/Oranmiyan became the "Alafin or Lord of the Royal Palace at Ile Ife" before setting out on an expedition to the Middle East. In Johnson's account, after this expedition to the Middle East was unsuccessful, he could not return to Ife having failed his mission, and so he asked the Borgu (Ibariba) king for a good place to settle down and then founded Oyo.

Even this claim - designed as it is to elevate the Alaafin and totally neglect the Ooni - reveals that Oranmiyan was really king at Ife. If one can disregard Johnson's attempt to replace "Ooni" with "Alafin" as the ruler of Ife, we see that all three accounts (Benin, Ife, and Oyo) actually agree with one another that Oranmiyan became the king at Ife. Since we know that this king was really the Ooni, not the "Alafin of Ife," we can conclude that all three traditions really mean that Oranmiyan became Ooni - although of course the Oyo tradition says the Alafin was the king of Ife at the time and later moved away to found Oyo. The next conclusion we can reach is that the tradition that one of Oranmiyan's other sons became the first Alafin of Oyo is probably correct.

This all seems to confirm that the Oba of Benin's forefather simply was not a ruler at Oyo at the time that he came to Benin, but that he also was not one after he left. So your argument and Aresa's argument does not seem to work here because the prince who became the king at Oyo was a son of Oranmiyan who ruled at Ife. Unless one assumes that Johnson alone is correct and that both Ife tradition and Benin tradition are wrong the argument doesn't really work.

In light of this, do you still think that the members of the Alaafin's court were incorrect to refer to the Oba of Benin and the Alafin of Oyo as brothers when they were interviewed in the early 1800s? Which is more likely, that they didn't understand the connection back then and were repeatedly saying the wrong thing, or that Johnson's account (which also requires one to believe the ruler at Ife was originally the Alafin) happens to be incorrect on this issue? I would go with the latter option.

The land Ogiamien sold to Oba belonged to Ogiso, not to him. My brother what are we arguing about? We are one family. We should not let semantics and form prevail over substance to divide us. Aresa has no blame here since your quote even support him but you do not like him using Ogiso instead of Ogiamien. Is Ogiamiem not acting as reagent or real estate agent for Ogiso land?

This is exactly the kind of confusion I was trying to dispel, which I think Aresa has fallen into.

Ogiamien's father was a prominent man that was elected as an administrator by the people following the last Ogiso's reign, but after his turn as a temporary administrator was over, he tried to have his son Ogiamien imposed as a king, and Ogiamien went along with this. Basically they tried to usurp power. But this is something which was unacceptable, since they were not of the Ogiso line. So their plan was opposed. Ogiamien had no blood connection or political connection to the Ogiso. That is why I questioned the notion that Ogiamien could somehow act as a representative of the Ogiso in land or other matters.

This talk of him "acting as reagent or real estate agent for Ogiso land" doesn't make any sense to me. How can the son of an elected representative who is trying to become a king, and whose claims to kingship and sole rulership are rejected because he is not descended from the Ogiso, somehow decide to act as a land agent for the dynasty of kings that he is not a part of and has no connection to?

When you look at the tradition more clearly, it is obvious that Ogiamien and his direct descendants, having been rejected by the people when they tried to obtain power, would have had good reason to oppose the king that was accepted by the people (Oba Ewedo) and a conflict would have ensued. But the treaty to finalize the outcome of the conflict (the Oba's victory) involved Ogiamien selling his part of the land to the Oba, which is now being interpreted to mean something else by Aresa and which he sees as somehow connected to the Ogiso. I hope after this explanation you get that the Oba does not "lease land from the children of Ogiso" but repurchases chief Ogiamien's particular piece of land to commemorate the treaty finalizing the resolution of their conflict in the Oba's favor.

QED,

We are going in circles here. Let us just agree that Ogiso used to own all the land including that of Ogiamien. Today Oba own the land including that of Ogiamien whether he sold or lease it to Oba.

As for Alafin moving on like his brothers after meeting Ooni on the throne on his way back from Benin, I pitch my tent with Aresa.

jara, I still don't get this claim of Ogiamien leasing the "children of Ogiso's land to the Oba". How exactly can he have done that? His own land is what is symbolically repurchased by the Oba. That's what I was trying to get across.

On Oyo, I was only saying that Ife tradition seems to hold that Oranmiyan was an Ooni (either before or after founding Oyo - I can't quite recall) and that his son went on to rule Oyo as the first Alafin, and that Benin tradition seems to claim basically the same thing. The statement of members of the Alafin's court in the 1830s that the kings of Benin and Oyo were brothers only seems to confirm this idea.

QED,

What don't you recall?

Descendant of Oduduwa (or Oduduwa according to some), was on the throne when the Ogiso killed a pregnant woman and was rejected asking Oduduwa to send one of his sons to rule. So many historians including Egharevba the Edo most prominent historian agree on this.

Oba of Benin now wants to be son of Ogiso that ruled Ife then. The problem is Ife is much older (than Benin) whose civilization as far as archaeological history can find dated back to 10,000 BC at IWO ELERU. The same Oduduwa could not have sojourned and well known by other Africans and beyond and then came back to be Oba of BENIN father. Nobody lived that long.

If Oba of Benin wants to solidify with discredited Ogiso that committed an abomination, fine. But 0giso land will always be leased to him each time his children ascend the throne. No way around that. Even his father left ILE-IBINU in frustration.

PhysicsQED: ^
lol, I might drop in a few more times that this general topic is discussed. However, I do want to minimize my future posting on Nairaland so that I can gradually wean myself off this site. It's addictive, but I think I want to make posting on here a rarer thing and then gradually move on completely.

we will miss you.

jara: QED,

What don't you recall?

I stated quite clearly what I didn't recall. It should be clear from the context of the sentence. It's something I read a long time ago and don't remember exactly. Unlike some people, if I have any confusion or doubt about an issue, even if minor, I don't push forward blindly and insist upon whatever I assume is right. I just admit to it.

Descendant of Oduduwa (or Oduduwa according to some), was on the throne when the Ogiso killed a pregnant woman and was rejected asking Oduduwa to send one of his sons to rule. So many historians including Egharevba the Edo most prominent historian agree on this.

No, that is not actually what Egharevba wrote. There was a bit of time and some events that happened in between the last Ogiso's reign and the Oliha asking the Oghene/Ooni, Oduduwa, to send his son to Benin. That is stated quite clearly in Egharevba's main book.

Oba of Benin now wants to be son of Ogiso that ruled Ife then. The problem is Ife is much older (than Benin) whose civilization as far as archaeological history can find dated back to 10,000 BC at IWO ELERU.

We have discussed this Iwo Eleru thing already and I do not feel like repeating myself. If you don't understand what I said on that other thread, then there's no point discussing this again. Anyway, you had better hope for both our sakes that Ife civilization didn't start at 10,000 B.C. but then take till more than 9,000 years later to show significant development. That would not be a good thing.

The same Oduduwa could not have sojourned and well known by other Africans and beyond and then came back to be Oba of BENIN father. Nobody lived that long.

Ok, sure. Whatever you say sir.

If Oba of Benin wants to solidify with discredited Ogiso that committed an abomination, fine. But 0giso land will always be leased to him each time his children ascend the throne. No way around that. Even his father left ILE-IBINU in frustration.

As I said above, the "Ogiso lease" claim is simply false.

See you later, jara.

Negro_Ntns:

we will miss you.

Thanks.

After all the manipulations you guys make to change history, alaafin still remains yoruba's numero uno

PhysicsQED: ^
lol, I might drop in a few more times that this general topic is discussed. However, I do want to minimize my future posting on Nairaland so that I can gradually wean myself off this site. It's addictive, but I think I want to make posting on here a rarer thing and then gradually move on completely.

yipe, yea!!
One more reason for me to pack my bags and migrate from this addictive forum

Dude, I guess u'r in the US
if so, I will sure like to meet up with you someday
please ensure you check your email account associated with this site once in a while

No one ever leaves Nairaland completely Although, I'm a little perplexed as to why you would want to leave physics, e-beefs?

I dont think nairaland could afford the brain-drain.. btw Django unchained said the n-word too much. It was awkward as hell to watch

Boy! Old interesting thread.

Where are these people now since 2012?