Zikkyy:

Am not missing anything. If you give because of profit, it means you will not engage in that same transaction if there was no profit attached.

Thats your carnal interpretation. Is it wrong to be motivated by end result. God was motivated by result . Jesus was motivated by result. Paul was. You really have to write a new bible dude

Pastor Kun: @joagbaje
You ought to be ashamed of yourself. And you are supposed to be a 'senior' pastor. Anyway I don't blame you sha when even your oga Oyaks does not have basic bible interpretation skills. It's so sad that half baked charlatans like you are being allowed to mount the pulpit and spew out rubbish to people. One would thought that after your being on NL for a few years you would have learnt to interprete the bible properly and stop disgracing yourself.

Your case is pathetic . So I won't waste time on you. it's the ABC salvation I will like to start you on

Joagbaje:

Thats your carnal interpretation. Is it wrong to be motivated by end result. God was motivated by result . Jesus was motivated by result. Paul was. You really have to write a new bible dude

Please elaborate on the bolded

ezme:

Please elaborate on the bolded

Forget it. If you are waiting for Joagbaje to elaborate, you will wait forever. Even Joagbaje does not understand his own post

Joagbaje:

Thats your carnal interpretation. Is it wrong to be motivated by end result. God was motivated by result . Jesus was motivated by result. Paul was. You really have to write a new bible dude

You always get it wrong. If you have been reading, you would know that the issue is not about being motivated by end result. The end result here is prosperity/wealth. Now consider Bill gate & James ibori path to achieving this end result and tell me if there is nothing wrong with ibori's approach. Even the armed robber is motivated by an end result. Your path towards achieving wealth tells who you truely are. For the man that will give only when he is hoping for financial returns, it tells us the character of the person. And we already told you greed is the motivation for such action and God cannot be deceived.

Zikkyy:

@bolded, i think oiseworld is yet to achieved celebrity status 'Crook' will do

lol.

Ok, i see. I soul have removed the "stars" and left it at "fraud" or "crook".

Ok, suggestions taken, next time then.

Joagbaje:

Your case is pathetic . So I won't waste time on you. it's the ABC salvation I will like to start you on

You won't waste time on me, yet you would like to start on me in the same sentence. Evidently, you are very confused.

Zikkyy:

You always get it wrong. If you have been reading, you would know that the issue is not about being motivated by end result. The end result here is prosperity/wealth. Now consider Bill gate & James ibori path to achieving this end result and tell me if there is nothing wrong with ibori's approach. Even the armed robber is motivated by an end result. Your path towards achieving wealth tells who you truely are. For the man that will give only when he is hoping for financial returns, it tells us the character of the person. And we already told you greed is the motivation for such action and God cannot be deceived.

So what do you say to this verse?

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Don't you think If you aware alive in the bible days you will criticize even paul or Jesus? . I still think you should get another bible

Joagbaje:

So what do you say to this verse?

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Don't you think If you aware alive in the bible days you will criticize even paul or Jesus? . I still think you should get another bible

You know if you place a white man in front of these three people; a government contractor, a militant and a cannibal, they will see different things or different ways the white man will be useful. The contractor will be thinking of the additional doors that can be opened with the white skin, and the militant will be seeing dollars to be made from kidnapping the man while the cannibal will be salivating (it's been long he ate white monkey pepper soup )

It the same thing when we read the bible; reading the whole of 2 Cor. 9, a true Christian whose heart has been shaped by the holy spirit will be encouraged to share (happily) in love, he will be more charitable, giving without expecting anything in return because he knows that it pleases God (God loves a cheerful giver). prosperity (casino) gospel adherent reading 2 Co.9:6 (they are not going to read the whole of 2 Cor. 9, cos only verse 6 appear to apply to their cause)will see justification for relying on the act of giving to the pastor as a 'get rich quick scheme'.

Have told you before, nobody is arguing that givers will not receive God's blessing, and God will not abandon those that have subjected themselves to the gospel of Christ. Paul is telling his audience to be generous, to be charitable; but it must be done right i.e. "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver". "......it will be ready as a generous gift, not as one grudgingly given.."

Encouraging his audience to give by stating that they will not lack because God is there for them is not the same thing as saying they should give for the purpose of receiving from God. This is where we differ in our interpretation. The condition or motive of the heart is what makes the difference. Christ and the apostles did not teach that the act of giving should be used as a wealth creation scheme. The bible teach that we should love, we should be charitable. How do you give in love when you are thinking of the profit accruing from that particular act. both motive are not compatible; it's either you give in love or you give for profit. where do you stand?

Joagbaje:
Don't you think If you aware alive in the bible days you will criticize even paul or Jesus? .

Why criticize Paul when i very much agree with his messages? the disagreement is on your interpretation of Paul's message.

Joagbaje:

So what do you say to this verse?

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Don't you think If you aware alive in the bible days you will criticize even paul or Jesus? . I still think you should get another bible

You seem to see money everywhere there is mention of sowing and offerings. How sad.

What people will do for the love of money !

frosbel:

You seem to see money everywhere there is mention of sowing and offerings. How sad.

What people will do for the love of money !

I didn't mention money. You seem to have money phobia, it's a poverty mentality . How sad

Zikkyy:
Have told you before, nobody is arguing that givers will not receive God's blessing, and God will not abandon those that have subjected themselves to the gospel of Christ.

Your claim was that its wrong to give with expectation. And wrong to encourage people to give with expectation. Your claim is to give rather without expecting . And I gave those scriptures to show the error of such teaching .

Paul is telling his audience to be generous, to be charitable; but it must be done right i.e. "

You didnt buy such idea before.

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give

Did anyone teach otherwise?

, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver". "......it will be ready as a generous gift, not as one grudgingly given.."

Does anyone teach that men should give sadly or grudgingly?

Encouraging his audience to give by stating that they will not lack because God is there for them is not the same thing as saying they should give for the purpose of receiving from God.

What's the difference? Pastor Paul's says . "We have a project here, give charitably, if you give small ,you will receive small small . If you give big ,you will receive big big". Why hail Paul and condemn others . Is it not thiesame principle ?

This is where we differ in our interpretation. The condition or motive of the heart is what makes the difference.

And what is wrong with this MOTIVE to give and receive? Is there any place God condemn it.? . You should let the word of God form your opinion and not let your opinion override the word of God. Firstly there are different kinds of givings . I can do thanksgiving offering just to appreciate God. Either he bless or not. "Just take am papa" but when we say SEED SOWING. It's a different ball game. A seed is sown with a motive which is the harvest. We should not try to be more humble than God. Jesus commanded a practice .look AT these scriptures again without biase pls

Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked:for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

And in addition . Givings are sacredly done unto God. Church money is not pastors money. So a pastor is not raising a project money for himself . If you give it's your business. After all its not everybody who gives . And nobody is sticking a gun in the head of another to give grudgingly . It's only God who can make someone give. Except a greedy man who God can't even move !

ezme:
Joagbaje:

Thats your carnal interpretation. Is it wrong to be motivated by end result. God was motivated by result . Jesus was motivated to endure by result. Paul was. You really have to write a new bible dude

Please elaborate on the bolded

It's simple . I was trying to debunk the idea that its wrong to be motivated by end result in giving . God gave His only son with the hope of having many sons. That's motive.

Jesus endured the pain for the hope and joy of the harvest .

Hebrews 12:2
.. . ; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Joagbaje:

Your claim was that its wrong to give with expectation. And wrong to encourage people to give with expectation. Your claim is to give rather without expecting . And I gave those scriptures to show the error of such teaching .



You didnt buy such idea before.



Did anyone teach otherwise?



Does anyone teach that men should give sadly or grudgingly?




What's the difference? Pastor Paul's says . "We have a project here, give charitably, if you give small ,you will receive small small . If you give big ,you will receive big big". Why hail Paul and condemn others . Is it not thiesame principle ?



And what is wrong with this MOTIVE to give and receive? Is there any place God condemn it.? . You should let the word of God form your opinion and not let your opinion override the word of God. Firstly there are different kinds of givings . I can do thanksgiving offering just to appreciate God. Either he bless or not. "Just take am papa" but when we say SEED SOWING. It's a different ball game. A seed is sown with a motive which is the harvest. We should not try to be more humble than God. Jesus commanded a practice .look AT these scriptures again without biase pls

Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked:for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

And in addition . Givings are sacredly done unto God. Church money is not pastors money. So a pastor is not raising a project money for himself . If you give it's your business. After all its not everybody who gives . And nobody is sticking a gun in the head of another to give grudgingly . It's only God who can make someone give. Except a greedy man who God can't even move !

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;
and all these things shall be added unto you. " (Matthew 6:33).

truthislight:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;
and all these things shall be added unto you. " (Matthew 6:33).

I think it's lack of faith or something. Joagbaje cannot wait for God to add the bonus, or maybe he does not believe or trust that the bonus will be added. That's why he is 'sowing' cash left, right and center in the hope of receiving 'money rain' from God.

Zikkyy:

I think it's lack of faith or something. Joagbaje cannot wait for God to add the bonus, or maybe he does not believe or trust that the bonus will be added. That's why he is 'sowing' cash left, right and center in the hope of receiving 'money rain' from God.

On the contrary joagbaje does not sow any cash. He is a receiver of sown cash and hence a direct beneficiary of the sowing of others. This is the obvious reason why he still preaches these false/twisted doctrines. He benefits from it.

Joagbaje:
Your claim was that its wrong to give with expectation. And wrong to encourage people to give with expectation. Your claim is to give rather without expecting . And I gave those scriptures to show the error of such teaching .

Let consider that you Joagbaje have two sons in boarding school. Now Joagbaje is rich he has everything in the world and loves to share with the poor. Now you have told your boys that they should share all you have given them with fellow students that comes from poor homes i.e. those that cannot pay their school fees, feed, or buy the necessaries required to stay in school. Now your first son understands you perfectly and knows even if he exhaust his supplies, daddy joagbaje is always there, so no issues he goes ahead and continues to assist his fellow students (those in need) knowing it pleases you to see him do this. Now your second son wonders what happen when and if he runs out of supplies before the end of term/semester. you reply this way; "am i not your father? why are you worried that you will ever run out of supplies by giving what you have to the needy? as you give, i will replenish even more"

Now is daddy joagbaje telling the son to give for the purpose of coming back to receive more? or is he just providing assurance that 'no worries, givers never lack'.

Christ and the apostles did not teach that we should give for the purpose of receiving more, the verse you posted provides assurance that our acts of love will not go un-noticed.

This is my message to prosperity (casino) gospel faithfuls this Sunday afternoon:

Hebrews 13:5 (NIV)
5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
“Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”

Pastor Kun:

On the contrary joagbaje does not sow any cash. He is a receiver of sown cash and hence a direct beneficiary of the sowing of others. This is the obvious reason why he still preaches these false/twisted doctrines. He benefits from it.

I know. am just respecting his wishes to keep out his real person from NL. so am treating him like i would treat any other poster.

follow up to my illustration above

Now joagbje, consider a situation where some of your workers say the very 'crooked' finance director of your company now goes to your second son and inform him that you just took deliveries of some 2013 range rover suv. then tells the son that he should give him the 2012 toyota prado he is currently using in compliance with your directive that he should give to receive more (on the belief that you joagbaje will your son one of the 2013 range rover in the garage for being a good boy and adhering to your instructions). This is what the prosperity preachers teach.

The instruction was to give in love to those that needs it and not to those that are already loaded (you pay your finance director well). The instruction was to give for love, because that is what pleases you and not give so that he can come for more.

Joagbaje:
You didnt buy such idea before.

your problem is that you don't take time to read posts, as long as that poster's view does not align with yours. i have been saying the same thing. Can you show me where i stated something different?

Joagbaje:
What's the difference? Pastor Paul's says . "We have a project here, give charitably, if you give small ,you will receive small small . If you give big ,you will receive big big". Why hail Paul and condemn others . Is it not thiesame principle ?

Because i understood Paul to be providing assurance and not telling his audience to give for the purpose of receiving even more. When Paul encouraged hospitality to strangers do you think he was telling his audience to welcome strangers for the purpose of receiving angels?

Hebrews 13:1-2 (NIV)
13 Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. 2 Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.

In the same manner, when he said (according to you), 'give big and you will receive big'. he is not saying give big to receive big. I hope you noticed the difference.

Joagbaje:
And what is wrong with this MOTIVE to give and receive? Is there any place God condemn it.? . You should let the word of God form your opinion and not let your opinion override the word of God.

There is nothing wrong with a motive to give and receive. If you practice giving and receiving as a motive, visit the stock market or money market. The church is not the right place for it. Paul also believed in the practice of giving and receiving, but does not share similar motive with you.

1 Corinthians 9:11-14 (NIV)
11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Did Paul sow spiritual seed for the purpose of reaping material harvest? i don't think so.

Joagbaje:
Firstly there are different kinds of givings . I can do thanksgiving offering just to appreciate God. Either he bless or not. "Just take am papa" but when we say SEED SOWING. It's a different ball game. A seed is sown with a motive which is the harvest.

I told you before, take your seed sowing to the farm, am sure you have land in your village. if you want to invest visit the stock market you cannot sow using an act that God commanded should be done in love. if God says giving should be done in love, you can not use it as means to wealth creation. it's that simple. Paul told us that love is not self seeking (selfish interest like sowing to hammer ), so how is it possible to show love by sowing into a needy brother or sister or even supporting the church when your motive was how to enrich yourself or improve your situation

1 Corinthians 13:4-5 (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Honestly Jo, if you can consider giving for the purpose of harvesting returns, then you are there yet. Don't even consider yourself a christian.

1 John 3:17 (NIV)
17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

truthislight already told you; seek ye first the kingdom........

Take his advice

1 John 3:21-23 (NIV)
21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Joagbaje:
Jesus commanded a practice .look AT these scriptures again without biase pls

Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Who is bias? joagbaje or zikkyy? i don't go about ripping one line statements from the bible and interpreting it to suit my motives. You have to consider verses before or after these statements to understand the intentions of the writer. if giving and receiving is a means to wealth, Paul would have encouraged the early christians to give to him so they can 'hammer' instead he went about collecting from those that have to meet the need of those that lacked. Paul even talked about the possibility of those you helped today being available (when they have) to also assist tomorrow

2 Corinthians 8:14
New International Version (NIV)
14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality,

You think the above is a quote from somebody that believes giving will make you richer by continuing to yield more returns?

Joagbaje:
Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked:for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Maybe you should add verse 8-9 to better understand that statement;

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

It's true you reap what you sow. I don't see how this support your principle of giving for returns. if we don't sow rightly we will reap destruction. giving for selfish interest is sowing to please the flesh and you already know what awaits such giver.

Joagbaje:
It's simple . I was trying to debunk the idea that its wrong to be motivated by end result in giving . God gave His only son with the hope of having many sons. That's motive.

..and i have shown that the end result and approach to achieving the end result matters. afterall armed robbers are motivated by an end result. we really need to be careful to ensure we get it right. selfish/greedy act in our attempt at receiving God's blessings is wrong.

Zikkyy:

Who is bias? joagbaje or zikkyy? i don't go about ripping one line statements from the bible and interpreting it to suit my motives. You have to consider verses before or after these statements to understand the intentions of the writer. if giving and receiving is a means to wealth, Paul would have encouraged the early christians to give to him so they can 'hammer' instead he went about collecting from those that have to meet the need of those that lacked. Paul even talked about the possibility of those you helped today being available (when they have) to also assist tomorrow

2 Corinthians 8:14
New International Version (NIV)
14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality,

You think the above is a quote from somebody that believes giving will make you richer by continuing to yield more returns?



Maybe you should add verse 8-9 to better understand that statement;

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

It's true you reap what you sow. I don't see how this support your principle of giving for returns. if we don't sow rightly we will reap destruction. giving for selfish interest is sowing to please the flesh and you already know what awaits such giver.

well done Zikky.

This does it:


Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;

whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
...............

The above is enough word for the wise.

truthislight:

well done Zikky.

This does it:


Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;

whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
...............

The above is enough word for the wise.

@bolded,
Dear Bible,
Some guys here said I should not get weary in welldoing because am not doing it for the result.

Serious