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Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by ghostofsparta(m): 1:10am On Feb 22, 2013 |
I have been honing this idea which has been lingering in my mind for years now. It borders within a concept of a type of OS entirely different from the conventional ones. I'm now self-convinced that it may even give Microsoft's Windows a run for it dominance. Infact it's so beyond both conventional 'styled' and those super-futuristic ones in movies like Iron Man and the remade Total Recall. It's far from what everyone is used to i.e. the likes of Wintel and Linux based ones. But the issue I am having is I can't discuss my 'novel trove' with even my programming pals without divulging the main core concept in the hopes of getting some hints/advice on how to go about it. So since I'm left with the option of having to venture into programming myself, I have done my assignment here and there where I figured the basic differences between C, C++ and C# and why C is the most needed to learn OSdev. I also learned that one shouldn't go into programming having OSdev in mind rather one should learn the languages "In and Out" first of all before thinking of coding 'garri' oriented apps much less of an operating system. I'll have to regard myself a n000b, hence using this thread to solicit ideas, guides and encouraging opinions on how to go about developing an operating system from scratch to perfection. I created this page as a forward to another page where game developers and programmers were being compared, I am aware it's not an easy task to do, some responders may say something like "dude, you need to ask yourself what purpose does your OS cater for" while some folks may say "stick to libraries". All I am asking as a n00b is what are the conditions prior to plunging into developing a totally bootable OS, hardware and software wise. Thanks |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by Nobody: 1:48am On Feb 22, 2013 |
ghostofsparta: I have been honing this idea which has been lingering in my mind for years now. It borders within a concept of type of OS entirely different from the conventional ones. I'm now self-convinced that it may even give Microsoft's Windows a run for it dominance. Infact it's so beyond both conventional 'styled' and futuristic types (Iron-man-ish). It's far from what everyone is used to from the likes of Wintel to the Linux based ones. But the issue I am having is I can't discuss my 'novel trove' with even my programming pals without divulging the main core concept in the hopes of getting some hints/advice on how to go about it. So since I'm left with the option of having to venture into programming myself, I have done my assignment here and there where I figured the basic differences between C, C++ and C# and why C is the most needed to learn for OSdev. I also learned that one shouldn't go into programming having OSdev in mind rather one should learn the languages "In and Out" first of all before thinking coding 'garri' oriented apps much less of an operating system. I'll have to regard myself a n000b, hence using this thread to solicit ideas, guides and encouraging opinions on how to go about developing an operating system from scratch to perfection. I creating this page as a forward to another page where game developers and programmers were being compared, I am aware it's not an easy task to do, some responders may say something like "dude, you need to ask yourself what purpose does your OS caters for" while some folks may say "stick to libraries". All I am asking as a n00b is what are the conditions prior to plunge into developing a totally bootable OS, hardware and software wise. A book on OS systems....or Google. |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by ghostofsparta(m): 2:07am On Feb 22, 2013 |
2buff: Both of course, but are they books on OS systems? I mean not OS manuals but how OS can be built? |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by Nobody: 2:20am On Feb 22, 2013 |
ghostofsparta: There are always books on everything. I would suggest before you even delve into this that you find a book and read up on OS concepts to get a better foundation before even touching a keyboard to code. Building an OS, especially one that rivals these OS's you mentioned is quite the long thing. That being said, As far as the world is concerned today there are only 2 major Operating systems. Windows and unix(i.e Linux). Both Apple's Mac/iOS and Google's Android are nothing but very different custom linux builds. Even these 2 giants couldn't be arsed to write up a full OS from the ground up from scratch. Reason being that linux is actually so very open-ended that you can actually create whatever crazy OS you so wish. The shell is different from the presentation layer (which I assume is where most of your innovative ideas will be present in) so you can just focus on what you are trying to achieve without being bugged down by a whole lot of ULTRA low level crap that would possibly get you dissinterested in the whole thing after only one week of head scratching. ![]() 7 Likes |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by kambo(m): 2:41am On Feb 22, 2013 |
your post doest take long to betray you as a jjc. you dont even know how to align curly braces in c,c++ yet you want to "write operating systems". chill. bang your head on the languages first,then pick a book and stretch your mind a little. an os that gives windows a run for its.. *yawn* - windows (not to discourage you) - is very well thought out. believe me. to have and retain market dominance,it must be a solid product else it could have been swept off the market ages ago by other Os'es and they are plenty of other operating systems ,not only linux. windows has over 8 million lines of code. or it 33 million lines! - but the code base is plenty. it will take you (100 * 100 years to code it up.) .besides - windows will be doing research on the next big thing.. that next big thing could be your novel idea! but nevertheless, writing an os is a requisite in good cs degree programmes. good luck and stop fantasizing.. . 2 Likes |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by ghostofsparta(m): 4:57am On Feb 22, 2013 |
I know Nigerian people, that's why I don't consider myself a Nigerian, because it also defines those who get their kicks from discouraging others, imagine Kambo's tendency to respond without the unnecessary dampening reply as quoted Kambo: your post doest take long to betray you as a jjc. you dont even know how to align curly braces in c,c++ yet you want to "write operating systems". chill. bang your head on the languages first,then pick a book and stretch your mind a little. @bolded, I wonder who asked you? Typical of Nigerians. Why must you tell me: [ Kambo: it will take you (100 * 100 years to code it up.)in order for me to drop it. Did he even read my post properly. I wasn't seeking to contend with any OS giant. Kambo, I have attempted shots at Arexx programming on the Amiga computer with no one to rub mind with, that was in the 90s, if not for the unavailability of Amiga users/supporters in Nigeria back then which made me dumped programming for other things I consider interesting who then are you to say "stop fantasizing". Don't you know the poorest in the world are those without dream. Ogbeni go park well jor! 2buff: That being said, As far as the world is concerned today there are only 2 major Operating systems. Windows and unix(i.e Linux).Please tell me what I don't know, for instance is it a prerequisite anyone interested in OSdev deeding to learn graphics design for the GUI? Do all/ must all operating system follow a definite startup-sequence? What programming language should one focus on for OSdev? or can any P.L. be used to achieve an OS. See guys, try and understand one thing, I know, we all know it is not mandatory for anyone to follow a particular way of achieving something because it's the only way it can be done. People come up with other ways stuff can be done, Pepsi and Coke are not similar tasting Cola. The whites (not being racist) came up with Kevlar vest and types of bullet proof technology, is it the same as the 'African' type which is based on super-metaphysical principles? If the whites believe to achieve inter-planetary travels in 3000 years time, must everyone think along that particular line to achieve it. If they believe Wave-particle duality is only possible theoretically and to a little practical extent, must one think within that confines when old folks here in villages have been harnessing energies yet unknown to modern scientific laws to achieve REAL teleportation or 'egbe' which they say iT's impossible except ONLY in fiction or probably achievable years far ahead of now. Again, the operating system I am fantasizing about is entirely different to conventional ones. MacOS, Windows, Linux, Ubuntu, Fedora, IronMan OS, etc all share certain uniqueness that defines them as they type of Operating System they are. One I am envisaging is whole new thing entirely. Infact, before I created this thread I have already figured out I don't really need deeeeeeeep knowledge in core programming, though there are certain prerequisites I'm sure one needs to have in mind which is what I am kindly asking for, from those who have hints on OSdev in NL. 5 Likes |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by WhiZTiM(m): 5:15am On Feb 22, 2013 |
this is going to be an interesting topic. .quite frankly, chances that you wouldn't go far with this passion to write an OS is 99.99%. And 0.01% that you would start coding a new type of OS. .... Windows 7 is believed to be above 80 million lines of codes. How are you gona beat that? Operating systems are the most difficult software to write from scratch. Not to discourage you, go and read about Kernels, Filesystems, ... Before going far... I did suggest you check out Minix. www.minix3.org its probably the smallest and useable industrial strength Operating System available... Its a few tens of thousands lines of code. If you understand the codes and working architecture fully, then you may proceed in taking out the next 7yrs of your life developing an OS. Before studying minix, you have to be a Veteran in post graduate level Mathematics, Systems Programming, algorithms, etc. Ever heard of "ReactOS"? ... 2 Likes |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by lordZOUGA(m): 9:11am On Feb 22, 2013 |
you need a team sir and lots of passion and money too.. I'd advice you to study the linux OS. no need to start from scratch. 1 Like |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by ghostofsparta(m): 12:16pm On Feb 22, 2013 |
WhiZTiM: this is going to be an interesting topic.Why should I beat that? Am I suppose to be intimidated with the 80million code lines everyone is discouraging me with, you just typify those Nigerians who believes since it took the United States 200 years to attain a WhiZTiM:Who doesn't know? WhiZTiM:@bolded^^^: Only useful piece out of everything you wrote WhiZTiM:Tell me, is Bill Gates or Kevin Mitnick a mathematician? ofcourse who doesn't know one needs to employ certain levels of arithmetic to represent a problem in programming. And remember when I said it still depends. WhiZTiM:No, what about it? I'm sure it won't be different from the rest of the pack in terms of its GUI |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by WhiZTiM(m): 12:53pm On Feb 22, 2013 |
ghostofsparta:... Well it is. Its a striving Operating System(written from scratch) that uses exact model of the Microsoft Windows NT Kernel... And so far, those guys are trying and have still been developing it! Since u said its not something so big that you are after, ... Just start by checking out these... Writing MBRs Bootstrapping and Boot loaders... Processor instruction sets.. Processor' supervisor modes and interrupts (depending on what type of kernel you want to make)... File system structures... Hardware Abstraction Layers (HAL)... Handling and decoding Hardware interrupts...e.g from input devices... Display and Output devices... Synchronization... Virtual Address mapping. Assembly language may be required at some point. Providing services and API to run processes on user space mode. Context switching etc... The list goes on and on and on... Afterall, Some Embedded OS had their 1st version written in a few months... But took years of continous development to become acceptable.. Seriously, you gona need a lot time... Probably some finite percentage of your life time... But for the start, I suggest you should attempt to write a small OS of a few thousand lines for the RISC MIPS processor. It doesnt have overly complex instructions like the IA x86, x64 families. There are some MIPS environment emulator around. Google it. Goodluck. 3 Likes |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by WhiZTiM(m): 12:56pm On Feb 22, 2013 |
ghostofsparta: |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by ciphoenix: 1:00pm On Feb 22, 2013 |
I believe the osdev wiki treats some of your questions. You might have seen them though |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by ghostofsparta(m): 1:25pm On Feb 22, 2013 |
lordZOUGA: you need a team sir and lots of passion and money too..Regarding the team, I will both agree and disagree because I think one only needs a team when it reaches a complex state because I don't think Bill Gates started with a team. The Windows idea was his from scratch but as it evolved in time, imperatively a team should sufficed for its advancement. Passion - Yes, but this society na wa o! I know a guy through my cousin who could metaphysically make two people communicate over a each other through what I call YAS (Yoruba Advanced Sciences aka juju), the rustic dude told me when I advised him to technologize it that it's our over religious brothers and sisters that will first of all kill the passion to attempt that. LordZOUGA I'm sure you know the kind of society Nigeria is when it comes to thwarting of passions and dreams as any one can see in this thread. There was this guy sometimes ago who came back from overseas and made a Android based tablet for the Nigerian market, I doubt if anyone welcomed or bought it, I'm sure the guy would feel bad seeing Nigerians going crazy about S3s, S4s and Notes. lordZOUGA: I'd advice you to study the linux OS. no need to start from scratch.Why is Linux important as a quick break-through to OSdev, why not C, or any other. |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by ghostofsparta(m): 1:26pm On Feb 22, 2013 |
crossfire: Game programming is simply out of this world, look at the minimax algol. Try developing a simple chess program. Or simply look at the source of "stockfish". (Stockfish is an open source chess program).I've looked at an early version of LINUX called MINIX ( i'm talking of hundreds of thousands of lines of code) and my little lazy brain could wrap around some of the concepts and data structures (I'm a software developer, and a chess enthusiast), but anytime i look at the internals of "stockfish" i feel like a child playing with sand. It looks like this program was written by aliens Well said, but how are game engines like Crytek's CryEngine(s) made? Also do game programming simply means developing an engine that efficiently control and governs all the constituents of an intended game? |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by ghostofsparta(m): 2:02pm On Feb 22, 2013 |
WhiZTiM: ...It sounds like it's still fashioned on Windows' GUI which is completely different from what I have in mind. A complete overhaul in GUI-looks far beyond Unix/Linux and Wintel based OSs WhiZTiM:These are the kind of info I was asking for. May Olodumare bless you WhiZTiM: Thanks for the heads-up, can you shed more light on what embedded OS implies, as to what alternative? |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by kinsab(f): 9:48am On Feb 23, 2013 |
lol....we don't rush into things, before you think of writing an operating system you must have learn and studied, with some practices of your effort,(1)you learn how operating sys. works from the basic (2) you have to be very good (80%)for C and other programming lang. (3)make sure you spend money on learning it if not you cant make it, you need to work hard and when you find anything difficult never skip off ![]() |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by Nobody: 9:50am On Feb 23, 2013 |
I think you learning the fundamentals of coding first is critical before trying to create more advanced codes like an operating system. Pick a language, ( i would recommend C++) then go from there. There is just no easy way out other than starting from the foundation. Besides if you are convinced your idea is revolutionary, why try to go at it on your own? Why don't you try to pitch your idea to a venture capitalist and see if you can get them to invest in your idea? Are you in Nigeria? Facebook, Google all started with an idea.....I encourage you to document your idea properly and even maybe try to patent it?? |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by Nobody: 9:56am On Feb 23, 2013 |
One last piece of advice that will save you a few unneccessary lessons....tone down the arrogance. Arrogance in general is counter-productive, but arrogance while still in a state of mediocrity is the beginning of apt destruction. 8 Likes |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by Nobody: 9:56am On Feb 23, 2013 |
Please document your idea properly and maybe file for a patent? Apple for example patent a lot of their developments/design concepts. I am sure you can do that as an individual. Once you patent it, then you can move to trying to find assistance in the implementation phase of your idea. 1 Like |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by Femsyn(m): 10:00am On Feb 23, 2013 |
From ur tone of language and approach. It seems u have it all figured out and quite proud, to say d least. Like someone rightly pointed out, u're probably still a baby programmer, judging by most of ur non-techy assertions. Listen and learn!! 4 Likes |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by Nobody: 10:05am On Feb 23, 2013 |
I found a site that gives a step by step tutorial on how to code in C/C++...you might find it useful... [http://www.howtoforge.com/learning-c-cplusplus-step-by-step] . Goodluck on ur quest |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by ncpat(m): 10:29am On Feb 23, 2013 |
Go ahead and realize your dream, just like someone here advised, go ahead and file your patent then make a prototype, register your company and go public to raise capital by selling shares to interested investors. wish you all the best. |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by Elxandre(m): 10:29am On Feb 23, 2013 |
@op. mr gates has an IQ of 160..thats a genius man..he could learn most things if he wants. |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by Nobody: 11:23am On Feb 23, 2013 |
@ GhostofSparta I don't know diddly squat about programming. But I can sense that you are coming from the 'right place'. Yes, it's gonna take resources. Yes, it might require 2 billion lines of code. Yes, you might complete it and it won't even get market acceptance. But you are coming from the right frame of mind. Henry Ford didn't understand advanced Physics or thermodynamics. But he had WILL. Dangote doesn't seem to know much science either - but his companies apply principles which span the gamut of sciences. Bill Gates ALONE didn't write all the 80 million lines of code himself, sure. The Google boys didn't give up because there was Yahoo Search, AltaVista, Lycos, etc. They just ran with their stuff - and the rest is history. Your chances of bringing this to fruiting might be slim...but you might as well TRY. You miss 100% of the shots you never take. 7 Likes |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by Nobody: 11:27am On Feb 23, 2013 |
Elxandre: @op. mr gates has an IQ of 160..thats a genius man..he could learn most things if he wants. The BIG part is the WANT. Want/Desire trumps IQ...and all the resources on the planet put together. 1 Like |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by gbigbega: 11:35am On Feb 23, 2013 |
I see a 100% failure ab-initio. With such arrogance, you will get nowhere. You have so little idea of programming and your first shot at it is an OS? Excuse me. You must be an expert in different programming technology before you can even attempt it. Why do you think big companies like google didn't build theirs from scratch. Oh mind you, Bill Gate did not build Windows from scratch, go and make your research. He started with DOS, which he bought, then migrated to window which me stole from MAC when he was on a project with them. He however still did not build it himself. It took thousands of expect mathematician and programmers whose expertise focus only on secific areas to build it. Bill gate himself can never build a windows 7 kind of OS himself. If you think OS won't need much programming then you are clearly disillusioned. You will need thousands and thousand of codings to write the type that people will be interested in. You will also need millions of dollars to get it to the stage it will be acceptable in the market. I was in microsoft a while ago and one of their technology expects boasted that they spend about $2 billion or so (I can remember the exact figure now) on research alone every year. I think its easier to build computer model from scratch than building the OS that will run it. Seriously. Having a good idea is not bad, but let it be a realistic one. Start by learning the language, there is a say that it takes a life time to learn all of C. Start writing small programs, see if you get to even write a sellable software. If you are able to do so, then you can gradually proceed. I have been programming for more than 10 years and have made a lot of money doing so but I will not even think of an OS talk more of attempting it but guess what, I have great ideas of an OS that will push microsoft and Linux out of the market too. If you are born to do this, please don't stop. Buy a computer with configuration that will still be relevant in the next 50 years, buy a 50 years internet package for browsing, lock your self up in a cave that won't open until next 50 years, don't socialize, don't marry etc you may just be able to do it. If not, pleeeeeeasssse get a life. Let the advice from true programmer be your guide, those who don't know what it entails are not qualified to encourage you into a path they no nothing of. Please humble yourself to learn and not waste your time. Your aiming for heaven his good, if you are deligent, you will land among stars. 6 Likes |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by digitalman: 12:09pm On Feb 23, 2013 |
like you have been advised, tone down your arrogance. by d way. if u want to develope ur innovative OS, u must have all the information, datasheets concerning the hardware available. build a hardware simulation base on ur system using C language(for efficiency). then start creating ur codes. good luck |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by informatix: 12:18pm On Feb 23, 2013 |
I have been thinking of this for so long i am a computer programming with C,C++,java,vb6.,vb.net,php,sql.,java script. even operating systems like Android where not built from scratch. The new OS. like Ubuntu and Android they used Linux KERNEL. if you are talking of bootable OS. then person will have to think of building from scratch. |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by gbigbega: 12:38pm On Feb 23, 2013 |
You can actually start by learning to develop device drivers. In its most basic forms, OS are bunch of device drivers. Device drivers are programs that help control the way machines work, hence the name. If you can start with assembly language programming, then graduate to C or C++ you might be able to write a device drivers. Since your device driver is the Operation system for whatever device you used ( watch, blender, welding machine, video or digital camera any device), you can then proudly say " I have written an OS". At least that's a dream come true. 2 Likes |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by Nobody: 12:45pm On Feb 23, 2013 |
gbigbega: I see a 100% failure ab-initio. With such arrogance, you will get nowhere. You have so little idea of programming and your first shot at it is an OS? Excuse me. You must be an expert in different programming technology before you can even attempt it. Why do you think big companies like google didn't build theirs from scratch. Oh mind you, Bill Gate did not build Windows from scratch, go and make your research. He started with DOS, which he bought, then migrated to window which me stole from MAC when he was on a project with them. He however still did not build it himself. It took thousands of expect mathematician and programmers whose expertise focus only on secific areas to build it. Bill gate himself can never build a windows 7 kind of OS himself. If you think OS won't need much programming then you are clearly disillusioned. You will need thousands and thousand of codings to write the type that people will be interested in. You will also need millions of dollars to get it to the stage it will be acceptable in the market. I was in microsoft a while ago and one of their technology expects boasted that they spend about $2 billion or so (I can remember the exact figure now) on research alone every year. I think its easier to build computer model from scratch than building the OS that will run it. Seriously. The EXPERTS Again! -"You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it. You must learn to see the world anew." ---------- Albert Einstein. - "When the Paris Exhibition closes electric light will close with it and no more be heard of." ---------------- Erasmus Wilson (1878) Professor at Oxford University. - "Men might as well project a voyage to the Moon as attempt to employ steam navigation against the stormy North Atlantic Ocean". -------- Dr. Dionysus Lardner (1793-1859), Professor of Natural Philosophy and Astronomy at University College, London. - "Well informed people know it is impossible to transmit the voice over wires and that were it possible to do so, the thing would be of no practical value". ------------- Editorial in the Boston Post (1865) - "That the automobile has practically reached the limit of its development is suggested by the fact that during the past year no improvements of a radical nature have been introduced". ------------ Scientific American, Jan. 2, 1909. - "There is not the slightest indication that [nuclear energy] will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will." -------------- Albert Einstein (himself ![]() - "...any one who expects a source of power from the transformation of these atoms is talking moonshine..." --------------- Ernest Rutherford - "That is the biggest fool thing we have ever done. The bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives." ------------ Admiral William Leahy. [Advice to President Truman, when asked his opinion of the atomic bomb project.] - "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." ----------- Lord Kelvin (1824-1907), ca. 1895, British mathematician and physicist. - "Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." ------------------ Marshal Ferdinand Foch, French military strategist, 1911. - "It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow." --------------- Robert Goddard. 2 Likes |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by topman4(m): 1:00pm On Feb 23, 2013 |
Do not start an operating system project in order to begin learning programming. No. Uh-uh. Do not. If you don't already know C, C++, Pascal, or some other suitable language inside out, including pointer manipulation, low-level bit manipulation, bit shifting, inline assembly language, etc., you are not ready for operating- system development. |
Re: Developing An Operating System - What Are The Prerequisites by saintneo(m): 1:23pm On Feb 23, 2013 |
[img] https://www.google.com.ng/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=ZNqO3jFr2v0AkM&tbnid=yv6tkMU66c1KmM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gtagaming.com%2Fdownloads%2Fgta-iv%2Fplayer-mods%2F9600&ei=kLQoUdffBISDhQfT14HgCA&bvm=bv.42768644,d.ZG4&psig=AFQjCNH0i6Bi9IOoDQqT8taQMew5H3kx5g&ust=1361708545281891 [/img] |
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