Boomark:

I cannot be tricked like that. We are not on the Holy spirit as intercessor. We are discussing SAINTS. No body is running away at this point.

Now we know that Angels are saints also. So i want to know who commanded you to pray to Angels or to tell them to pray for you. This includes Mary.

I'm not trying to trick you in any way, you actually brought in the issue of the Holy spirit into play. take a look at my post

Syncan:

Again you're writing with certainty,Imagine the bold and coloring of the word "No". Let me remind you of how sure you were a while ago and yet you were wrong.Compare what you wrote some time ago as shown below, and the one you wrote later as seen above.

Before (2nd quote): Not Angels...Very sure
After(1st quote):Are Angels...Very Sure

Do find out what the adjective "ministering" stands for...to help you, I believe you've heard of ministries in the religious circle, do find out what functions the "ministers" perform to the people.

Bro,You need to tell me why you quoted the above.

As per your expectation....I need to know when the subject of your accusation took place, it won't be difficult if you're sure it is true.

And you responded thus:

Boomark:
CERTAINLY no one told you to pray to Angels. If you are doing that you are wrong.

I know human ministers (messengers) are called Angels according to revelations. Also Jesus and John the Baptist were called Angels, malachi 3:1.

Rom 8:26-27 is just to show you who the perfect spirit intercessor is. Not Mary, Judas or any other spirit being. You don't pray to them because they have nothing to add or remove to your prayers. Besides, praying to them is very wrong because God gave no such commandment.

It is only the Holy spirit that brings our prayers to an acceptable standard to God.

Now you see, I'm only following your lead. I needed you to tell me if you understand the functions of ministers so we can proceed.

Are we now looking for meaning of words or how to worship God in spirit and in truth?

We 1st identified the saints(eg Angels). Next is to know if we should pray to them.

This is the lead we should follow in other not to digress:

Boomark:
CERTAINLY no one told you to pray to Angels. If you are doing that you are wrong.

If we get this one and keep then we move over to Holy spirit intercessorship and ministration. Unless they are linked to praying to Angels.

Boomark: Are we now looking for meaning of words or how to worship God in spirit and in truth?

We 1st identified the saints(eg Angels). Next is to know if we should pray to them.

This is the lead we should follow in other not to digress:

CERTAINLY no one told you to pray to Angels. If you are doing that you are wrong.

Am I wrong because no one told me to do that?

Syncan:

Am I wrong because no one told me to do that?

You are wrong because you are doing what is wrong. Pray to God through Jesus. Jesus is the only way to God. Angels are your fellow servants.

Boomark:

You are wrong because you are doing what is wrong. Pray to God through Jesus. Jesus is the only way to God. Angels are your fellow servants.

So I am wrong because I am asking my "fellow servant" to pray to God for me?

Syncan:

So I am wrong because I am asking my "fellow servant" to pray to God for me?

That your "fellow servant" is not like you. He is not as sinful as you and i. He is serving God in a different capacity as a spirit. God wants to hear the prayer of a sinful MAN who is not reluctant to come and ask Him for anything. Tell a MAN to pray for you because God is interested in the prayers of men. The apostles knew these things which was inspired by the holy spirit and told you to do the same. Jesus is the mediator between God and MAN(not Angels).

Boomark:

That your "fellow servant" is not like you. He is not as sinful as you and i. He is serving God in a different capacity as a spirit. God wants to hear the prayer of a sinful MAN who is not reluctant to come and ask Him for anything. Tell a MAN to pray for you because God is interested in the prayers of men. The apostles knew these things which was inspired by the holy spirit and told you to do the same. Jesus is the mediator between God and MAN (not Angels).

Do reconcile these in bold, let me know what you're talking about, i.e, Why should I tell a man to pray for me when Jesus is the mediator between God and Man. Secondly do angels pray? If yes, does God not want to hear their prayers?

Syncan:

Do reconcile these in bold, let me know what you're talking about, i.e, Why should I tell a man to pray for me when Jesus is the mediator between God and Man. Secondly do angels pray? If yes, does God not want to hear their prayers?

Why u de worry urself with Bookmark na? Kai... Plz leave him alone. Dm say 'Silence is d best answer to a mumu'. If u continuing arguing with him, He'll drag u down to his level and beat u wit experience.

Syncan:

Do reconcile these in bold, let me know what you're talking about, i.e, Why should I tell a man to pray for me when Jesus is the mediator between God and Man. Secondly do angels pray? If yes, does God not want to hear their prayers?

James 5:14
English Standard Version (ESV)
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let
him call for the elders of the church,
and let them pray over him,
anointing him with oil in the name
of the Lord.

Col 4:3
meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word....

It is either a man prays for himself or he prays for another and our Lord Jesus will mediate. Do you think they don't know that the prayer of a sinless Angel will be much more effective? But there is nothing like that. God wants to see your faith in him not that of a perfect spirit.

Angels pray and make requests to God and he answer them. So now show us where an Angel has pray on behalf of men. This is what you believe in.

Richieboyn:

Why u de worry urself with Bookmark na? Kai... Plz leave him alone. Dm say 'Silence is d best answer to a mumu'. If u continuing arguing with him, He'll drag u down to his level and beat u wit experience.

abi

Boomark:

That your "fellow servant" is not like you. He is not as sinful as you and i. He is serving God in a different capacity as a spirit. God wants to hear the prayer of a sinful MAN who is not reluctant to come and ask Him for anything. Tell a MAN to pray for you because God is interested in the prayers of men. The apostles knew these things which was inspired by the holy spirit and told you to do the same. Jesus is the mediator between God and MAN(not Angels).

Now we know that God heareth not sinners...Jn9:31
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.Jam5:17

The more righteous the Saint,the more effective the prayer.

Boomark:

James 5:14
English Standard Version (ESV)
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let
him call for the elders of the church,
and let them pray over him,
anointing him with oil in the name
of the Lord.

Col 4:3
meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word....

It is either a man prays for himself or he prays for another and our Lord Jesus will mediate. Do you think they don't know that the prayer of a sinless Angel will be much more effective? But there is nothing like that. God wants to see your faith in him not that of a perfect spirit.

Angels pray and make requests to God and he answer them. So now show us where an Angel has pray on behalf of men. This is what you believe in.

So now we understand that if another prays for you, then he prays;and our lord Jesus will mediate. Fine

Again I call you to clear things up. On one hand you say the prayer of an Angel is more effective, and yet you say "but there is nothing like that".

Meanwhile what do you say about this:

Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah,... Zech1:12. This is a prayer by an angel for men isn't it?

Richieboyn:

Why u de worry urself with Bookmark na? Kai... Plz leave him alone. Dm say 'Silence is d best answer to a mumu'. If u continuing arguing with him, He'll drag u down to his level and beat u wit experience.

What can the insults from one who lacks the fruit of the Holy spirit do to me? Nothing o!

Shall i not regard him as a heathen? Enjoy heathenated life.

Richieboyn:

LOL.....a drunk man lyk u never agrees he's drunk. Thank God for knowing you? U are of no use to me. @least not in area of my faith.

What do they teach you in your church?

Is this the way you make your evangelism?

Dont you think that your cursing on this your thread is too much?

Smh for you.

Hope you are not an atheist in the making.

italo:

Are you saying Joshua sinned by lying prostrate before images in Joshua 7?

But God didnt rebuke him. Why do you?

God clearly said that his worshippers should not make images for themselves.

The only one that reserved the right to the contrary is Yahweh himself. He sets the standards for worship.

It was him that commanded that they build the ark and the brazen serpent.

No human, i repeat, no body has the right to do or make any design of any image without an express command from Yahweh.
So, it is a different thing when the almighty expressly give the command and when mere human decides to make images like pegans do.

So, the difference is whether Yahweh gave the command or he did not since he had said that no human should make images.

Deciding on your own to make image of mary and Jesus without an express instruction from the almighty and using such for worship is presumptiouseness.

truthislight:

What do they teach you in your church?

Is this the way you make your evangelism?

Dont you think that your cursing on this your thread is too much?

Smh for you.

Hope you are not an atheist in the making.

He is still a child.

He did not notice that abuse/insults from Christians have reduced greatly except for some Atheist and people in some other religion. I thank God for that. We labour not invain.

@Syncan my friend,

I will reply you tomorrow.

Syncan:


So now we understand that if another prays for you, then he prays;and our lord Jesus will mediate. Fine

Again I call you to clear things up. On one hand you say the prayer of an Angel is more effective, and yet you say "but there is nothing like that".

Meanwhile what do you say about this:

Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah,... Zech1:12. This is a prayer by an angel for men isn't it?

Like i said Angels commune and make request to God. But what we are looking at is: Were they empowered to receive prayers from Man and in turn offer it to God?

Jesus urged us to pray and ask God for anything in his name and he will do it, jn 14:13-16. When you pray to God through an Angel, it is contrary to the arrangement God has made in Jesus. Because Jesus is the only way to the Father.

Can you compare prayers made through Angels and the one made through Christ which should be more effective? Besides, Angels don't receive prayers from men and offer to God...that is the work of our High priest(Jesus). We have an advocate with the Father who is jesus, our mediator, 1Jn 2:1.

Do we dread him so much that we now choose to go through Angels and Mary? Did he not ask us to come?

Our Father said He knows our problems but He wants US to ask. How can you be telling Angels and Mary to pray on your behalf when the Father wants US to do it ourselves? Do you also tell them all your problems to beg God on your behalf? I hope you see reason in these things.

Boomark:

Like i said Angels commune and make request to God. But what we are looking at is: Were they empowered to receive prayers from Man and in turn offer it to God?

Jesus urged us to pray and ask God for anything in his name and he will do it, jn 14:13-16. When you pray to God through an Angel, it is contrary to the arrangement God has made in Jesus. Because Jesus is the only way to the Father.

Can you compare prayers made through Angels and the one made through Christ which should be more effective? Besides, Angels don't receive prayers from men and offer to God...that is the work of our High priest(Jesus). We have an advocate with the Father who is jesus, our mediator, 1Jn 2:1.

Do we dread him so much that we now choose to go through Angels and Mary? Did he not ask us to come?

Our Father said He knows our problems but He wants US to ask. How can you be telling Angels and Mary to pray on your behalf when the Father wants US to do it ourselves? Do you also tell them all your problems to beg God on your behalf? I hope you see reason in these things.

Rev8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. I believe the scripture answers your question in bold letters.

You ask if we dread him so much that we have to go through angels and Mary? and I answer thus: you said earlier

Boomark: "It is either a man prays for himself or he prays for another and our Lord Jesus will mediate.

In this your statement you meant that a man who prays for another is not actually mediating, but Jesus does. Why then do you think that an angel praying for man is mediating and not Jesus. The truth remains that any saint(man or angel) praying for man is actually doing the prayer like you said,and Jesus;the mediating.

You and I agree that angels are saints. You and I agree that angels pray. You and I agree that God loves their prayers and answers them. I have shown you that they pray for men Zech1:12. I have shown you that they offer our prayers to God Rev8:3-4. Now you've heard His word....


Tobit 12:12. "When thou, Tobias, wert praying, and with tears, when thou wert burying the dead, leaving thy dinner untasted, so as to hide them all day in thy house, and at night give them funeral, I, all the while, was offering that prayer of thine to the Lord". You may not have this Deuterocanonical book (not my fault), but it conforms with what you read in Rev8:3-4 above.

Syncan:

Rev8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. I believe the scripture answers your question in bold letters.

Have you forgotten we have a High priest? Who does the work of a priest(ie mediation) in the temple of God.

The angel CAME and stood at the ALTAR. He was GIVEN incense...to offer prayers...upon the golden ALTAR.

Do you who the priest of this altar is? Your prayers and mine are already on the altar. Do you see that? The prayers now ascend to God with the incense. The Angel never added a single prayer to it. Jesus does his works with his Angels. See Rev 1:1

You ask if we dread him so much that we have to go through angels and Mary? and I answer thus: you said earlier In this your statement you meant that a man who prays for another is not actually mediating, but Jesus does. Why then do you think that an angel praying for man is mediating and not Jesus. The truth remains that any saint(man or angel) praying for man is actually doing the prayer like you said,and Jesus;the mediating.

Angels make request to God in behalf of man. Infact one of their ministry is to help man but pray for man individually. Man's prayers are received by the High priest and offered to God.

You and I agree that angels are saints. You and I agree that angels pray. You and I agree that God loves their prayers and answers them. I have shown you that they pray for men Zech1:12. I have shown you that they offer our prayers to God Rev8:3-4. Now you've heard His word....


Tobit 12:12. "When thou, Tobias, wert praying, and with tears, when thou wert burying the dead, leaving thy dinner untasted, so as to hide them all day in thy house, and at night give them funeral, I, all the while, was offering that prayer of thine to the Lord". You may not have this Deuterocanonical book (not my fault), but it conforms with what you read in Rev8:3-4 above.

Still the same thing. Angels make request to God for men in general not individually. Tobias prayed for himself while the Angel offer it to God.

Boomark:

Like i said Angels commune and make request to God. But what we are looking at is: Were they empowered to receive prayers from Man and in turn offer it to God?

Boomark: Man's prayers are received by the High priest and offered to God.

Boomark: Still the same thing. Angels make request to God for men in general not individually. Tobias prayed for himself while the Angel offer it to God.

Yea. Look at this.

Tobit 12:12-15
12 Tobit, when you and Sarah
prayed to the Lord, I was the one
who brought your prayers into his
glorious presence. I did the same
thing each time you buried the
dead. 13 On the day you got up
from the table without eating your
meal in order to bury that corpse,
God sent me to test you. 14 But he
also sent me to cure you and to
rescue your daughter-in-law, Sarah,
from her troubles. 15 I am Raphael,
one of the seven angels who stand
in the glorious presence of the
Lord, ready to serve him.

I think everything explained itself. Angels are ready to serve God's purpose for Man. Therefore Angels communicate with Him(i know this is the confusing part).

You must pray to God alone and the Angels are ever ready to take your prayers to Him.

When they are sent, they bring back reports like: "Most Holy Father! This is what syncan is doing. He is now helping the poor. Do you want to test him again? How long will you be angry with him." These are just their activities.

As for PRAYING, you do it your self to show God your commitment. Tobit showed us how it happened. He and Sarah prayed and the Angel readily offer it to God.

Syncan:

Hahaha.

I saw my mistake there. As if i was receiving doses of sleep then.

What i meant is that angels don't have special prayers they pray on behalf of those who say "angel Raph... PRAY FOR ME."

They are not partial in their duty because God will know. What they do is to offer YOUR OWN PRAYERS to God. Then normal communication/feedback about your activities with God will take place. If God wants to test you, they will make request to go and say how they want to achieve it.

This happens to everyone praying to God. No special prayers from angels. Your own prayers and good deeds are the things that are needed.