Kay 17: God embodies good = perfection. Perfect free will = total freewill. By the act of creation, God lends out his good nature. Hence a perfect Creator begets a perfect creation.

On the other hand,

Evil is the opposition/nullification to the inherent and natural aspirations/purpose of Creation.

Evil is structural defect of Creation, it is a nullification/contradiction of inherent purpose and design. It is damage. Its existence is an inconsistency of the Christian God and Freewill. Evil in fact deprives free will. Evil is imbibed in our cultures and environment, it conditioned into us, distorts our experience to graduate to Evil.

Evil is encompassing, it is beyond the control of the individual. We are forced to consider necessary evils.

ọmọ_τó_dùn: ^
Why would God need to test for something? He is God, so shouldn't he automatically know the outcome?

ọmọ_τó_dùn: ^
Why would God need to test for something? He is God, so shouldn't he automatically know the outcome?

ifeness:

Abi o.....

2buff: So if you never commited a crime and you were punished for it because you were "going to/ predicted to" commit the crime 10 years down the road (without giving you a chance to choose for yourself whether you are trully going to)...is that a situation you would prefer? Thank God he does not judge based on "Minority Report"

ọmọ_τó_dùn:

But God knows if you will change or not, so your point is moot.

ọmọ_τó_dùn: ^
Suppose that God knows that at 2:00PM tomorrow, I will kill my girlfriend. If I am given the chance to "choose" for myself, like you claimed, then there are two options:

1) I go ahead and "choose" to kill her, fulfilling the what God saw.
2) I choose not to kill her. (This would mean that what God saw did not come to pass; ergo, he is not omniscient.

Ultimately, whether or not I know, I will still choose to kill her because that is what God saw. I have no options. The desires of God must surely come to pass!

2buff: Go and watch the movie Minority Report and stop loving the smell of your own mind-farts here.

2buff: Are you trying to kill your girlfriend and blame it on "the will of God"? or to steal and call it "the will of God" because it happened? Do you not have your own free will? Omo go and sleep.

ọmọ_τó_dùn:

First, thank you very much for insulting me.

Second I have seen the movie. The precogs were not God! Sometimes they do not agree, and when this happens data on the two reports which agree are the ones given out. The "minority report", reflecting the potential future where a predicted killer would have done something different, is discarded.

God does not have a minority report; the future He sees is absolute. That is, you can only do what He sees.

2buff:



So if you never commited a crime and you were punished for it because you were "going to/ predicted to" commit the crime 10 years down the road (without giving you a chance to choose for yourself whether you are trully going to)...is that a situation you would prefer? Thank God he does not judge based on "Minority Report"

2buff:

But do YOU know? That is the question.
In trying to sound smart with yourself you have completely missed the point you have so called deemed "moot".
God is a just judge. He will not punish you for something you have not done.
He will judge you based on what you have done, so the likes of you can have no reason to say "I have been unfairly judged!".

Go and watch the movie Minority Report and stop loving the smell of your own mind-farts here.

2buff:



So if you never commited a crime and you were punished for it because you were "going to/ predicted to" commit the crime 10 years down the road (without giving you a chance to choose for yourself whether you are trully going to)...is that a situation you would prefer? Thank God he does not judge based on "Minority Report"

cyrexx: Ye religionists, I have this to tell you...

2buff:

But do YOU know? That is the question.
In trying to sound smart with yourself you have completely missed the point you have so called deemed "moot".
God is a just judge. He will not punish you for something you have not done.
He will judge you based on what you have done, so the likes of you can have no reason to say "I have been unfairly judged!".

Go and watch the movie Minority Report and stop loving the smell of your own mind-farts here.

2buff:

Here is some insight.

When Elijah was getting frustrated and saying "Oh God they have killed all the prophets. I am the only one left" God told him, no that he had many others. When God says a thing, it must be done. People fall off the will of God everyday, but another is simply raised to take his place till that will is accomplished...or God will come down and do it himself! So indeed the future he sees IS absolute.

It is in practice of our free will that we choose to do or not do the will of God. But rest assured, someone WILL do it. If you are chosen, you get your chance.

Either way, neither you or I can ever fully understand God's mind. Why not leave it at that and devote your frail mind to other things? Like determining what it is you should be doing with your life

plaetton:

Sir,
I think you missed the part in the bible where god says that he will punish unto the 7th generation of those that defy him.
That is clearly worse than pre-crime, or the minority report scenario that you are referring to.
Here, god vows to punish people who have not even been born for a crime committed before their great great grand parents even met.

How do you explain that?.

plaetton: ^^^




lol.
God is great!

Deep Sight: What makes anyone think that God, if it exists, is, or should be either moral or immoral, in the human sense?

Is God, if it exists, expected to be a human being?

If you say that God does not exist, fine. But if you agree that God, if it exists, would not be a human being, then why ascribe human moral standards to it, or judge it by human morailty?

When a lion kills lion cubs in taking over a pride, do you accuse him of murder and then sentence him to the electric chair? You do not. Why? Because he is not human and has a different moral paradigm, if any at all.

You consider the lion lower than you. You agree that God, if it exists, would be higher than you. If you cannot judge that which is lower based on your human standards of morailty, how can you judge that which is higher based on your human standards of morality.

Think again.

Logicboy03:



Well argued point but you forget the consequences of your argument

1) God then has no say in our morality, just as we cant preach vegetarianism to a lion so it wouldn't kill. The lion is wired to kill, and we are subject to our reasoning ability. If God operates on a different moral level, he is then useless to us when it comes to morality......

2) You are claiming that there is a higher morality (God's morality) which we can not understand. That is an argument from ignorance because you dont know and cant know if it exists because it would be far beyond your senses.The same way a lion wouldn't understand the nuance of human rights

Deep Sight: What makes anyone think that God, if it exists, is, or should be either moral or immoral, in the human sense?

God then has no say in our morality, just as we cant preach vegetarianism to a lion so it wouldnt kill. The lion is wired to kill, and we are subject to our reasoning ability. If God operates on a different moral level, he is then useless to us when it comes to morality......

You are claiming that there is a higher morality (God's morality) which we can not understand. That is an argument from ignorance because you dont know and cant know if it exists because it would be far beyond your senses.The same way a lion wouldnt understand the nuance of human rights

Deep Sight:

Logicboy, at last, well done!

Finally, I have lived to see the day you have made a proper and intelligent response. I am pleased. You have valid points here.

However, I would direct you towards that which I really did seek to say, by my argument -



If God exists, it cannot be expected to be human. It therefore would super-exceed human morality. It would be in the position super-sight - a position where consequences and karma render justice unbeknownst to the receivers of said justice. In the position of a government that sees, for example, the treachery of espionage, as a lesser evil than the success of terrorism - and is therefore disposed to employ that same treachery to eliminate that same terrorism. It would be in a position to see the bigger picture - and understand moral dilemmas which would be opaque to us.

I kill one man - a righteous man even, to save many. This happens. And may not be immoral.

Now let me come to your points more specifically - >



Completely agree that God would then have no say in our morality - - - >

- - -> Just as surely as our morality would have no bearing on the existence or non existence (and nature of) God!

This is a cardinal point to show that arguments on God's morality or lack thereof, do not, and cannot, serve as arguments against the existence of God.

Just as surely my dear, as arguments against your morality, or lack thereof, cannot serve as arguments against your existence.

- - -> And just as surely as our morality would have no bearing on the philosophical question of the existence of a first cause. Evil first cause, or good first cause, no matter - - -> technically, our morality cannot, alone, by itself, ever be sufficient grounds to disprove the existence of a logical first cause - even if he (or "she" or "it" ) be Count Dracula.



Another excellent point - as far as morality is concerned - but which is not the question here.

And which, however, does nothing to argue against a first cause.

However note that I am simply asking you how and why you could use human morality to judge an entity that is not human. As is the case with the Lion, does this make sense to you?

And as you accept the Lion to be a lower creature than you, and as you accept God (if it exists) to be a higher being or entity than you, does it not also make sense to agree that while the Lion's morality is incomprehensible to you, as it is lower, God's (if it exists) morality would be higher, and therefore incomprehensible to you - thereby removing it from the realm of your judgment or capacity to judge, yea or nay?

Does it not make sense to agree that while the Lion's morality may be lower than yours, God's (if it exists) would be higher?

You are, here, arguing against the morality of God and not the existence of God.

My primary argument with you (and with all atheists) is the philosophical question of the existence of God, and NOT the morality of God.

For all you care, the first cause (God) could be evil. Or amoral. This does nothing to taint the existence or non existence of God.

And if God (if it exists) is evil, then (if it exists) you best tailor yourself along its evil principles.

Like the Lion.