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Sovereignty And Free Will - Religion - Nairaland

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The Fallacy Of "Free Will" / Where In The Bible Does It Say We Have Free Will ? / Human Free Will vrs God's All-Knowing Nature (2) (3) (4)

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Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 10:17pm On Apr 12, 2013
Are Sovereignty and Free Will opposites?

Those who are trained to think of God’s sovereignty in the Calvinistic sense insist that men have no free will. To think a man can choose to repent and follow Christ negates God’s sovereignty, they think. They think if a man can choose one way or the other, then that man has control rather than God.

If God is completely all powerful (sovereign), is He not then able to apportion a measure of control to his human subjects? I say that to deny God’s right to do so is to attack the sovereignty of God; it is to say that He is not able to control a universe unless He micromanages every decision of His subjects. The truth is that God is more sovereign than Calvinists think.

There are many biblical truths illustrated in life for our learning, if we are observant and careful to compare everything to the Word of God (so that we don’t stray from it in our reasonings.) In using parables, Jesus Himself often used natural things to teach spiritual principles.

I believe the tension between the sovereignty of God and the free will of man can be seen in two examples in nature: natural parental sovereignty, and the synergism between God and man in growing crops.

Natural Parental Sovereignty

Let’s say I have 10 children. I might say to my children, “I want you to get your chores done on time. Please be obedient. If you get your chores finished on time, you will have dessert. If you don’t get them done on time, you will be denied any dessert at all.”I am completely in control of whether they get dessert or not. If I decide to give them ice cream, they will enjoy some ice cream–and if I decide they get no dessert, there is nothing they can do about it. Since I have all the power on my side (sovereignty), I could even go back on my word and deny them dessert even after they finish their chores in time–but for the sake of argument, in our example I am a loving and just parent/ruler (as God also is), and I will always keep my word.

As a good parent, I have a high purpose in teaching them to do what is right with diligence–my rules are not arbitrary. They may not understand the importance of finishing their chores on time; nevertheless they have a choice to make, and an obedience to fulfill. They will reap exactly what they sow, and what they sow is THEIR choice, not mine. I am not going to force them to do their chores; neither will I hinder their efforts to obey. They have freedom to choose to disobey (which is contrary to my will). But they are not free to choose to have the dessert ANYWAY if they disobey. If they disobey me, I will keep my word and allow them no dessert. That part has been “predestined,” if you will, by their parent. They are free to choose, but their free-will is limited by my sovereignty.

Suppose a child were to say, “My parents are sovereign, and it is their sovereign choice whether or not I get dessert. There is nothing I can do to change my future one way or the other. There is no point in my doing chores or anything else; everything has been decided for me.” Or suppose a child were to examine the history of his siblings, and notice that a few were routinely getting dessert, while others were routinely denied dessert. Should he then decide that his parents have predestined some for dessert and others to go without dessert completely apart from anything they might do? Hopefully you see the folly of such thinking. Yet this is exactly what the Calvinist view of God’s sovereignty declares about God’s relationship with men, and using this distorted view of sovereignty, many attempt to shirk the responsibilities God has given to men.

Application

God has made His will known–it is His will that all men repent of their sins and come to Him through faith in Jesus Christ. He desires men to love Him with all their hearts, and to love their neighbors as themselves (doing no evil to any man.) He has said that all men will be judged by their works (Matt. 16:27; Rev. 2:23; Rev. 20: 12-13), and will reap either death or everlasting life depending on what they “sow” in this life (Gal. 6:7-8 ). We are free to choose whether we will sow to please our flesh or the Spirit of God (free will), but we are not free to choose a reward that is contrary to what we have sown–God in His sovereignty will make absolutely sure that we reap according to how we have sown–He will not be mocked. We will get our just desserts.

Growing Crops

If a man plows his land, sows wheat, and is diligent to care for his fields; then provided no catastrophe happens, he will reap wheat. If he sows corn, he will reap corn. If he is lazy and sows nothing, he will reap nothing but weeds and thistles. God has given knowledge to man, and man knows how to grow food through hard work. But God does not force men to plow and sow, nor does He choose for man what type of seed should be sown. God allows him to sow anything he wants, or to sow nothing at all in his garden. God allows him to give half-hearted attention, full devotion, or total negligence to his fields. That is free will.

Nevertheless, God is the one who put life inside a seed. God is the one who sends rain, and the one who either sends or withholds bad weather. What happens beneath the soil is a wonderful miracle, and no farmer–no matter how brilliant or diligent–has control over what takes place there. No farmer can reap anything in a field God devastates by floods or other natural disasters. No farmer can grow anything apart from God, because God is in the process from beginning to end–He is the Author and Finisher. That is sovereignty.

Now suppose a farmer were to say, “God is sovereign. It’s all up to God, so I will just sit here and watch good fruit appear in my garden all by itself.” We know that this would not happen–this foolish man would starve to death with his family! God has taught men to sow and expects them to do their part. “Doing their part” to cultivate the soil and plant good seed in no way steals glory from God; rather it honors God by properly stewarding the gifts God has given to men. This is called synergism.

Application:

Repentance is the plowing of the soil. Even good seed simply won’t grow in rocky, hard soil. Jesus said unless you repent you will perish.

Receiving the Word with faith is the receiving of the Good Seed (Jesus, the Word) into good soil. Endurance or perseverance must happen next, as Jesus taught you must not only hear the Word, but keep it and “bring forth fruit with patience.” (Luke 8:15)

While God is both the Author and Finisher of Salvation/Eternal life (as He also is the creator of the life in the seed, and the one who controls the weather in our former example), He still allows us to CHOOSE whether we will:

-Repent (plow),
-Believe (receive the Seed), and
-Endure (bring forth fruit with patience).

We are told that we have a choice to sow to please the Spirit or sow to please the flesh. Please note in this verse (Gal. 6:7-9) that the CONSEQUENCES of this sowing are out of our control, though the sowing itself is in our control. We will reap “destruction” or “life everlasting” depending on what we CHOOSE to sow. (Everlasting life is at stake here, friends.) We can choose to sow to our flesh, but we are not free to still reap everlasting life if we do so. “Be not deceived . God is not mocked. WHATEVER a man sows [by his own choice] that shall he also reap.”

“Whatever a man sows…” denotes free will choice.
“That shall he also reap.” denotes God’s sovereign and predetermined decision to give to every man according to his works (Matt. 16:27; Rev. 2:23; Rev. 20: 12-13.)

God bless you!

Source
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by shdemidemi(m): 8:01am On Apr 13, 2013
God said I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy and compassion on whoever I will have compassion

Suppose a child were to say, “My parents are sovereign, and it is their sovereign choice whether or not I get dessert. There is nothing I can do to change my future one way or the other. There is no point in my doing chores or anything else; everything has been decided for me.” Or suppose a child were to examine the history of his siblings, and notice that a few were routinely getting dessert, while others were routinely denied dessert. Should he then decide that his parents have predestined some for dessert and others to go without dessert completely apart from anything they might do? Hopefully you see the folly of such thinking. Yet this is exactly what the Calvinist view of God’s sovereignty declares about God’s relationship with men, and using this distorted view of sovereignty, many attempt to shirk the responsibilities God has given to men.



The difference between God and the parent analogy is that God knows the end from the beginning. We are only playing out what has been written like a cosmic drama by God e.g the story of Abraham . God told Abraham He would have a son through His wife Sarah, This was hard to believe and beyond all hope because Abraham was 100 and His wife 90. They actually laughed at what God said. Their laughter did not change God's mind instead God said the boy would be called 'Isaac' meaning laughter.

Another example is the story of Joseph. God revealed a dream to him, He did not know how this dream was going to become reality at the time. His brothers had to be cruel to him, He had to be sold to slavery, He had to go prison just for the will of God to come to past.

God knows our end from the beginning. We are just actors filling the two ends of our story.

Apostle Paul in His letters to the church will then write to the chosen, the elected saints.
It is not by work lest any man should boast.

Mathew 16 v 27

27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

NB that Jesus was talking to them under the law here. At this point salvation was for the Jews and proselytes only..and they could only be righteous by works and not by grace.
Christ would have to die for the propitiation of our sins to begin the new covenant.

Rev 2v 23 rev 20 12 v 13
The book of revelation is what will happen during tribulation, where the Jews will work to be saved. The church would be gone before that time, so that book is not relevant to the grace we enjoy through Christ in this dispensation.
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by inspiredbyGOD(m): 8:37am On Apr 13, 2013
There is nothing like freewill and yes, true freewill negates God's sovereignty.
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 2:32pm On Apr 13, 2013
inspiredbyGOD:.:
There is nothing like freewill and yes, true freewill negates God's sovereignty.

There is nothing like freewill ?

So did GOD destine MAN to fall from the very beginning , in which case Adam and Eve were simply playing out a pre-planned scene, they had no freewill , it was all pretend ? Hmmmmm

smiley
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by inspiredbyGOD(m): 3:23pm On Apr 13, 2013
frosbel:

There is nothing like freewill ?

So did GOD destine MAN to fall from the very beginning , in which case Adam and Eve were simply playing out a pre-planned scene, they had no freewill , it was all pretend ? Hmmmmm

smiley
What question did God ask them first when he came down to earth to take a walk in the garden? That question says it all, he was obviously aware that they would eat from the tree all along.
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 3:25pm On Apr 13, 2013
inspiredbyGOD:.:
What question did God ask them first when he came down to earth to take a walk in the garden? That question says it all, he was obviously aware that they would eat from the tree all along.

enlighten me please with the evidence.
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by inspiredbyGOD(m): 3:31pm On Apr 13, 2013
His first question was "have you eaten from the tree which I commanded you not to eat?"
He knew that they would eat it from the onset, he already knew the answer to the question that he threw at them. It was all part of his plan.
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 3:37pm On Apr 13, 2013
inspiredbyGOD:.:
His first question was "have you eaten from the tree which I commanded you not to eat?"
He knew that they would eat it from the onset, he already knew the answer to the question that he threw at them. It was all part of his plan.

Because God is omnipresent he saw what happened and to reinforce his refusal to interfere with the freewill of MAN , did not prevent it.

Same thing with CCTV, a policeman can be hundreds of miles away and see a crime in progress through video. It does not mean the police planned for the crime to happen.
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by inspiredbyGOD(m): 3:55pm On Apr 13, 2013
frosbel:

Because God is omnipresent he saw what happened and to reinforce his refusal to interfere with the freewill of MAN , did not prevent it.
Which freewill are we talking about? Why was the tree even there in the first place? It was all planned out to happen that way. You don't put a loaded gun inside the house with a toddler and then expect the child not to play with it. If you want to keep the child safe, you'll keep the gun in a safe place, you won't put it in a place where the child will have easy access.

Same thing with CCTV, a policeman can be hundreds of miles away and see a crime in progress through video. It does not mean the police planned for the crime to happen.

The policeman isn't omniscient, omnipresent, omnibelevolent etc etc etc
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by greatgenius: 5:12pm On Apr 13, 2013
@ frosbel ..wow are these really your arguments? And you are supposed to be one of the "top" defenders of your Christian faith on nairaland? Wow ..Did you really even understand the article you posted.. you seem to have no idea what freewill or omniscient or all-powerful Is. Or maybe you pretending
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 7:30pm On Apr 13, 2013
greatgenius: @ frosbel ..wow are these really your arguments? And you are supposed to be one of the "top" defenders of your Christian faith on nairaland? Wow ..Did you really even understand the article you posted.. you seem to have no idea what freewill or omniscient or all-powerful Is. Or maybe you pretending


Please expatiate on your point smiley
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 7:32pm On Apr 13, 2013
[quote author=inspiredbyGOD:.]Which freewill are we talking about? Why was the tree even there in the first place? It was all planned out to happen that way. You don't put a loaded gun inside the house with a toddler and then expect the child not to play with it. If you want to keep the child safe, you'll keep the gun in a safe place, you won't put it in a place where the child will have easy access.

So when I go to a shop and steal a CD player, my excuse to the police is , why was the CD player there in the first place , lol.

Or , if I go on my uncle's house and use his Internet to commit fraud, suppose I blame him because he allowed me use the Internet in the first place or made it available to me.


Think again and we can discuss a little deeper.
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by greatgenius: 9:53pm On Apr 13, 2013
[quote author=frosbel][/quote] you are asking someone to think but you are failing to do so..1. The issue is not the stealing or the fact that he did a "wrong".. the issue is that you think and believe he's got freewill and yet advocate for punishment...that's the problem most of you think how you act and behave is how the creator should/will act...

now applying it to God not only has the man so called freewill been violated, it makes God out to be a liar , a fraud and malevolent( why I keep saying religion makes a mockery of God)... punishing negates his freewill- also negate the all-powerful, unconditional loving and all-knowing nature of God... freewill should not be based on condition and neither should unconditional love.. even though you erroneously infer the role of a parent unto God..understand that he is not or acts like your parent.. unlike your parent Gods love is unconditional no matter what...

The very fact that Gods love is unconditional means that there is no such thing as punishment in his world.. he loves all the same no matter the " crime".. thats the truth that many of you have failed to accept because in your minds Gods promise sound so good to be true..humans think they are undeserving of such a promise..
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by inspiredbyGOD(m): 9:55pm On Apr 13, 2013
@Frosbel


God put man in a perfect garden but decides to leave a particular tree in the middle where all eyes can easily see it and then he tells man not to even touch the tree or eat from it.
How does your analogy correspond with this?

* If you go to a shop, you already know that everything is for sale and you are supposed to buy things there not steal them.

* Again, you know from the onset that the internet isn't for fraud. You shouldn't only blame your uncle, you should blame your fingers, your laptop, your laptop manufacturer, your modem, your ISP, your web browser, your email provider and every other person/object/organisation you can lay your blames on.
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 10:41pm On Apr 13, 2013
inspiredbyGOD:.:
@Frosbel


God put man in a perfect garden but decides to leave a particular tree in the middle where all eyes can easily see it and then he tells man not to even touch the tree or eat from it.
How does your analogy correspond with this?

* If you go to a shop, you already know that everything is for sale and you are supposed to buy things there not steal them.

* Again, you know from the onset that the internet isn't for fraud. You shouldn't only blame your uncle, you should blame your fingers, your laptop, your laptop manufacturer, your modem, your ISP, your web browser, your email provider and every other person/object/organisation you can lay your blames on.


I disagree.

GOD was simply putting Adam and Eve to the test, to see if they were going to exercise their free will positively. They failed the test.

They had free will to choose between right and wrong.

To erroneously suggest that Man is a robotic subject of God with no ability to resist the will of God is not in alignment with the truth of scripture.

Man has free will and we see the consequences of this free will in our society every day, some choose to kill while others choose to promote life. Some choose to give themselves over to perversion while others choose the opposite.

God calls us out of this love , but he never compels us to love him, it is a matter of choice..
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by greatgenius: 11:32pm On Apr 13, 2013
^^^^ of course every being has a freewill. That's without a doubt ...we can all agree on that. It's right up there with relativity as one of the greatest gifts that The Infinite Creator gave all beings/creatures/children/himself -

But let's go back to your point. So Adam and Eve have freewill and in exercising their freewill fail God's test. And you think and believe they should be punished for exercising their freewill .. is that your point god brother ?
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 11:37pm On Apr 13, 2013
greatgenius: ^^^^ of course every being has a freewill. That's without a doubt ...we can all agree on that. It's right up there with relativity as one of the greatest gifts that The Infinite Creator gave all beings/creatures/children/himself -

But let's go back to your point. So Adam and have freewill and in exercising their freewill fail God's test. And you think and believe they should be punished for exercising their freewill? .. is that your point god brother ?

But SATAN exercised his free will and rebelled against his creator, what makes MAN any different ?
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by greatgenius: 11:40pm On Apr 13, 2013
frosbel:

But SATAN exercised his free will and rebelled against his creator, what makes MAN any different ?
Cmon @frosbel what is Satan to do with this...please just answer the question honestly with a clear conscience ..do you think Adam and eve should be punished for exercising their freewill? ... We will get to Satan( though there is no such being as satan the devil )
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 11:53pm On Apr 13, 2013
greatgenius: Cmon @frosbel what is Satan to do with this...please just answer the question honestly with a clear conscience ..do you think Adam and eve should be punished for exercising their freewill? ... We will get to Satan( though there is no such being as satan the devil )


God set the expectations right at the beginning , he told man the consequence of eating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil , and warned him to stay away.

Why warn Adam to exercise his free will in this matter ?

Also , there was a consequence which subsequent to Adam eating the fruit , resulted in the punishment.

In other words MAN chose his will over God's will.
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by greatgenius: 1:10am On Apr 14, 2013
frosbel:

God set the expectations right at the beginning , he told man the consequence of eating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil , and warned him to stay away.

Why warn Adam to exercise his free will in this matter ?

Also , there was a consequence which subsequent to Adam eating the fruit , resulted in the punishment.

In other words MAN chose his will over God's will.



you don't get it do you.. you failed to answer my question and just beating around the bush giving excuses ..

1. He set no such expectation god brother ...The very minute God sets an expectation is the very instant your freewill will be infringed upon- not what an all powerful being does....freewill should not come with expectations or condition .. an unconditional loving God does not set expectations in the first place.. if I command and expect you to do something and then reward / punish you based on the execution or failure of, of my expectations then, I have infringed on your freewill.. freewill does not come with commands and expectations.. neither does unconditional love..

2. Understand that consequences are not the same thing as punishment /condemnation /judgement /retribution... Consequences are just that. Consequences ..natural outcomes..consequences are effects not punishments or condemnation..A god or deity punishing or condemning his "creatures" for disobeying are not natural outcomes or consequences but an act of a low intelligent malevolent deity..

3. If God is all-knowing and unconditional loving God, then your will automatically becomes his will..so punishing you for exercising your will is not what an all intelligent loving God does..unless you want to call God a liar..

Her will is the ultimate, highest , grandest and best will for the greater good and as such will want or desire that you choose his will... If you choose God will you will know no suffering and only experience the highest love.. nevertheless not choosing his will does not mean he will punish you.. that's what humans do not what a God will do..

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Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by inspiredbyGOD(m): 6:12am On Apr 14, 2013
frosbel:


I disagree.

GOD was simply putting Adam and Eve to the test, to see if they were going to exercise their free will positively. They failed the test.
Putting Adam and Eve to the test? He already knows the end from the beginning, so what is the point of the test? And why does he test his creatures when he already knows the outcome of the test?

They had free will to choose between right and wrong.
Everything was against them from the beginning. If God really wanted them to pass the "test" he would have warned them about the serpent that he hurled to earth . They had no freewill, that serpent would have just kept on coming until they ate from the tree.

To erroneously suggest that Man is a robotic subject of God with no ability to resist the will of God is not in alignment with the truth of scripture.
Can man resist God's will?

Man has free will and we see the consequences of this free will in our society every day, some choose to kill while others choose to promote life. Some choose to give themselves over to perversion while others choose the opposite.
What exactly does freewill mean to you?
Is this freewill limited?

God calls us out of this love , but he never compels us to love him, it is a matter of choice..
But he punishes those that refuse this love right?
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by shdemidemi(m): 7:36am On Apr 14, 2013
Everyone in the Old Testament were acting based on freewill (so they thought), not knowing everything they were doing was pointing towards Christ.
There was a prophesy that Christ would be born in Bethlehem. Joseph and Mary had to flee from where they were to Bethlehem in fear. To them they were doing things spontaneously, unknowingly they were only playing out God's drama.

He would have mercy on some by grace and no mercy for some, He can't be asked. He is GOD.
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 8:49am On Apr 14, 2013
shdemidemi: Everyone in the Old Testament were acting based on freewill (so they thought), not knowing everything they were doing was pointing towards Christ.

You are getting things all mixed up.

The LAW and the prophets pointed to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with free will.

By negating the significance of our free will, you are preaching a dangerous doctrine that makes a nonsense of the work of Christ.

If Jesus was tempted by SATAN , did he not exercise freewill , this time in obedience to GOD in contrast to Adam's free will which was exercised in disobedience ?

Are you seriously calling GOD unjust by implying that he has allowed billions of human beings to populate the earth while knowing that the majority of them will be damned to perdition ?

Mate , this your logic is seriously warped.

God gave us a free will, that's why we were made in his image, able to choose between right and wrong.
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by shdemidemi(m): 1:46pm On Apr 14, 2013
You are talking emotions bro...
God is not bothered about our emotions, If the will of God is for the whole world to die then we will all go. Damn how anyone feels.
His agenda is different from ours.

Jesus told Peter you would deny me three times before dawn.
If Peter had a free will, He would probably have stopped the second time he denied Christ. But He had to say it the third time cos Christ can't lie.

The bible says In the day of His power, His people shall be willing.

E.g Saul was prosecuting Christians. Was it the will of God, I say YES
God arrested him when He was needed for the gospel against Paul's will for His glory.

Your gospel is that you can do good within you to gain God.
That is another gospel from the Paul's gospel to the church.

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