Stats: 3,177,631 members, 7,901,937 topics. Date: Friday, 26 July 2024 at 05:56 PM |
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Sovereignty And Free Will (679 Views)
The Fallacy Of "Free Will" / Where In The Bible Does It Say We Have Free Will ? / Human Free Will vrs God's All-Knowing Nature (2) (3) (4)
Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 10:17pm On Apr 12, 2013 |
Are Sovereignty and Free Will opposites? |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by shdemidemi(m): 8:01am On Apr 13, 2013 |
God said I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy and compassion on whoever I will have compassion Suppose a child were to say, “My parents are sovereign, and it is their sovereign choice whether or not I get dessert. There is nothing I can do to change my future one way or the other. There is no point in my doing chores or anything else; everything has been decided for me.” Or suppose a child were to examine the history of his siblings, and notice that a few were routinely getting dessert, while others were routinely denied dessert. Should he then decide that his parents have predestined some for dessert and others to go without dessert completely apart from anything they might do? Hopefully you see the folly of such thinking. Yet this is exactly what the Calvinist view of God’s sovereignty declares about God’s relationship with men, and using this distorted view of sovereignty, many attempt to shirk the responsibilities God has given to men. The difference between God and the parent analogy is that God knows the end from the beginning. We are only playing out what has been written like a cosmic drama by God e.g the story of Abraham . God told Abraham He would have a son through His wife Sarah, This was hard to believe and beyond all hope because Abraham was 100 and His wife 90. They actually laughed at what God said. Their laughter did not change God's mind instead God said the boy would be called 'Isaac' meaning laughter. Another example is the story of Joseph. God revealed a dream to him, He did not know how this dream was going to become reality at the time. His brothers had to be cruel to him, He had to be sold to slavery, He had to go prison just for the will of God to come to past. God knows our end from the beginning. We are just actors filling the two ends of our story. Apostle Paul in His letters to the church will then write to the chosen, the elected saints. It is not by work lest any man should boast. Mathew 16 v 27 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. NB that Jesus was talking to them under the law here. At this point salvation was for the Jews and proselytes only..and they could only be righteous by works and not by grace. Christ would have to die for the propitiation of our sins to begin the new covenant. Rev 2v 23 rev 20 12 v 13 The book of revelation is what will happen during tribulation, where the Jews will work to be saved. The church would be gone before that time, so that book is not relevant to the grace we enjoy through Christ in this dispensation. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by inspiredbyGOD(m): 8:37am On Apr 13, 2013 |
There is nothing like freewill and yes, true freewill negates God's sovereignty. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 2:32pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
inspiredbyGOD:.: There is nothing like freewill ? So did GOD destine MAN to fall from the very beginning , in which case Adam and Eve were simply playing out a pre-planned scene, they had no freewill , it was all pretend ? Hmmmmm ![]() |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by inspiredbyGOD(m): 3:23pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
frosbel:What question did God ask them first when he came down to earth to take a walk in the garden? That question says it all, he was obviously aware that they would eat from the tree all along. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 3:25pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
inspiredbyGOD:.: enlighten me please with the evidence. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by inspiredbyGOD(m): 3:31pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
His first question was "have you eaten from the tree which I commanded you not to eat?" He knew that they would eat it from the onset, he already knew the answer to the question that he threw at them. It was all part of his plan. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 3:37pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
inspiredbyGOD:.: Because God is omnipresent he saw what happened and to reinforce his refusal to interfere with the freewill of MAN , did not prevent it. Same thing with CCTV, a policeman can be hundreds of miles away and see a crime in progress through video. It does not mean the police planned for the crime to happen. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by inspiredbyGOD(m): 3:55pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
frosbel:Which freewill are we talking about? Why was the tree even there in the first place? It was all planned out to happen that way. You don't put a loaded gun inside the house with a toddler and then expect the child not to play with it. If you want to keep the child safe, you'll keep the gun in a safe place, you won't put it in a place where the child will have easy access. Same thing with CCTV, a policeman can be hundreds of miles away and see a crime in progress through video. It does not mean the police planned for the crime to happen.The policeman isn't omniscient, omnipresent, omnibelevolent etc etc etc |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by greatgenius: 5:12pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
@ frosbel ..wow are these really your arguments? And you are supposed to be one of the "top" defenders of your Christian faith on nairaland? Wow ..Did you really even understand the article you posted.. you seem to have no idea what freewill or omniscient or all-powerful Is. Or maybe you pretending |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 7:30pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
greatgenius: @ frosbel ..wow are these really your arguments? And you are supposed to be one of the "top" defenders of your Christian faith on nairaland? Wow ..Did you really even understand the article you posted.. you seem to have no idea what freewill or omniscient or all-powerful Is. Or maybe you pretending Please expatiate on your point ![]() |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 7:32pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
[quote author=inspiredbyGOD:.]Which freewill are we talking about? Why was the tree even there in the first place? It was all planned out to happen that way. You don't put a loaded gun inside the house with a toddler and then expect the child not to play with it. If you want to keep the child safe, you'll keep the gun in a safe place, you won't put it in a place where the child will have easy access. So when I go to a shop and steal a CD player, my excuse to the police is , why was the CD player there in the first place , lol. Or , if I go on my uncle's house and use his Internet to commit fraud, suppose I blame him because he allowed me use the Internet in the first place or made it available to me. Think again and we can discuss a little deeper. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by greatgenius: 9:53pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
[quote author=frosbel][/quote] you are asking someone to think but you are failing to do so..1. The issue is not the stealing or the fact that he did a "wrong".. the issue is that you think and believe he's got freewill and yet advocate for punishment...that's the problem most of you think how you act and behave is how the creator should/will act... now applying it to God not only has the man so called freewill been violated, it makes God out to be a liar , a fraud and malevolent( why I keep saying religion makes a mockery of God)... punishing negates his freewill- also negate the all-powerful, unconditional loving and all-knowing nature of God... freewill should not be based on condition and neither should unconditional love.. even though you erroneously infer the role of a parent unto God..understand that he is not or acts like your parent.. unlike your parent Gods love is unconditional no matter what... The very fact that Gods love is unconditional means that there is no such thing as punishment in his world.. he loves all the same no matter the " crime".. thats the truth that many of you have failed to accept because in your minds Gods promise sound so good to be true..humans think they are undeserving of such a promise.. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by inspiredbyGOD(m): 9:55pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
@Frosbel God put man in a perfect garden but decides to leave a particular tree in the middle where all eyes can easily see it and then he tells man not to even touch the tree or eat from it. How does your analogy correspond with this? * If you go to a shop, you already know that everything is for sale and you are supposed to buy things there not steal them. * Again, you know from the onset that the internet isn't for fraud. You shouldn't only blame your uncle, you should blame your fingers, your laptop, your laptop manufacturer, your modem, your ISP, your web browser, your email provider and every other person/object/organisation you can lay your blames on. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 10:41pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
inspiredbyGOD:.: I disagree. GOD was simply putting Adam and Eve to the test, to see if they were going to exercise their free will positively. They failed the test. They had free will to choose between right and wrong. To erroneously suggest that Man is a robotic subject of God with no ability to resist the will of God is not in alignment with the truth of scripture. Man has free will and we see the consequences of this free will in our society every day, some choose to kill while others choose to promote life. Some choose to give themselves over to perversion while others choose the opposite. God calls us out of this love , but he never compels us to love him, it is a matter of choice.. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by greatgenius: 11:32pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
^^^^ of course every being has a freewill. That's without a doubt ...we can all agree on that. It's right up there with relativity as one of the greatest gifts that The Infinite Creator gave all beings/creatures/children/himself - But let's go back to your point. So Adam and Eve have freewill and in exercising their freewill fail God's test. And you think and believe they should be punished for exercising their freewill .. is that your point god brother ? |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 11:37pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
greatgenius: ^^^^ of course every being has a freewill. That's without a doubt ...we can all agree on that. It's right up there with relativity as one of the greatest gifts that The Infinite Creator gave all beings/creatures/children/himself - But SATAN exercised his free will and rebelled against his creator, what makes MAN any different ? |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by greatgenius: 11:40pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
frosbel:Cmon @frosbel what is Satan to do with this...please just answer the question honestly with a clear conscience ..do you think Adam and eve should be punished for exercising their freewill? ... We will get to Satan( though there is no such being as satan the devil ) |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 11:53pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
greatgenius: Cmon @frosbel what is Satan to do with this...please just answer the question honestly with a clear conscience ..do you think Adam and eve should be punished for exercising their freewill? ... We will get to Satan( though there is no such being as satan the devil ) God set the expectations right at the beginning , he told man the consequence of eating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil , and warned him to stay away. Why warn Adam to exercise his free will in this matter ? Also , there was a consequence which subsequent to Adam eating the fruit , resulted in the punishment. In other words MAN chose his will over God's will. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by greatgenius: 1:10am On Apr 14, 2013 |
frosbel:you don't get it do you.. you failed to answer my question and just beating around the bush giving excuses .. 1. He set no such expectation god brother ...The very minute God sets an expectation is the very instant your freewill will be infringed upon- not what an all powerful being does....freewill should not come with expectations or condition .. an unconditional loving God does not set expectations in the first place.. if I command and expect you to do something and then reward / punish you based on the execution or failure of, of my expectations then, I have infringed on your freewill.. freewill does not come with commands and expectations.. neither does unconditional love.. 2. Understand that consequences are not the same thing as punishment /condemnation /judgement /retribution... Consequences are just that. Consequences ..natural outcomes..consequences are effects not punishments or condemnation..A god or deity punishing or condemning his "creatures" for disobeying are not natural outcomes or consequences but an act of a low intelligent malevolent deity.. 3. If God is all-knowing and unconditional loving God, then your will automatically becomes his will..so punishing you for exercising your will is not what an all intelligent loving God does..unless you want to call God a liar.. Her will is the ultimate, highest , grandest and best will for the greater good and as such will want or desire that you choose his will... If you choose God will you will know no suffering and only experience the highest love.. nevertheless not choosing his will does not mean he will punish you.. that's what humans do not what a God will do.. 1 Like |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by inspiredbyGOD(m): 6:12am On Apr 14, 2013 |
frosbel:Putting Adam and Eve to the test? He already knows the end from the beginning, so what is the point of the test? And why does he test his creatures when he already knows the outcome of the test? They had free will to choose between right and wrong.Everything was against them from the beginning. If God really wanted them to pass the "test" he would have warned them about the serpent that he hurled to earth . They had no freewill, that serpent would have just kept on coming until they ate from the tree. To erroneously suggest that Man is a robotic subject of God with no ability to resist the will of God is not in alignment with the truth of scripture.Can man resist God's will? Man has free will and we see the consequences of this free will in our society every day, some choose to kill while others choose to promote life. Some choose to give themselves over to perversion while others choose the opposite.What exactly does freewill mean to you? Is this freewill limited? God calls us out of this love , but he never compels us to love him, it is a matter of choice..But he punishes those that refuse this love right? |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by shdemidemi(m): 7:36am On Apr 14, 2013 |
Everyone in the Old Testament were acting based on freewill (so they thought), not knowing everything they were doing was pointing towards Christ. There was a prophesy that Christ would be born in Bethlehem. Joseph and Mary had to flee from where they were to Bethlehem in fear. To them they were doing things spontaneously, unknowingly they were only playing out God's drama. He would have mercy on some by grace and no mercy for some, He can't be asked. He is GOD. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by Nobody: 8:49am On Apr 14, 2013 |
shdemidemi: Everyone in the Old Testament were acting based on freewill (so they thought), not knowing everything they were doing was pointing towards Christ. You are getting things all mixed up. The LAW and the prophets pointed to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with free will. By negating the significance of our free will, you are preaching a dangerous doctrine that makes a nonsense of the work of Christ. If Jesus was tempted by SATAN , did he not exercise freewill , this time in obedience to GOD in contrast to Adam's free will which was exercised in disobedience ? Are you seriously calling GOD unjust by implying that he has allowed billions of human beings to populate the earth while knowing that the majority of them will be damned to perdition ? Mate , this your logic is seriously warped. God gave us a free will, that's why we were made in his image, able to choose between right and wrong. |
Re: Sovereignty And Free Will by shdemidemi(m): 1:46pm On Apr 14, 2013 |
You are talking emotions bro... God is not bothered about our emotions, If the will of God is for the whole world to die then we will all go. Damn how anyone feels. His agenda is different from ours. Jesus told Peter you would deny me three times before dawn. If Peter had a free will, He would probably have stopped the second time he denied Christ. But He had to say it the third time cos Christ can't lie. The bible says In the day of His power, His people shall be willing. E.g Saul was prosecuting Christians. Was it the will of God, I say YES God arrested him when He was needed for the gospel against Paul's will for His glory. Your gospel is that you can do good within you to gain God. That is another gospel from the Paul's gospel to the church. |
(1) (Reply)
Ringtones Of Nigerians / Church Marketing: Pastor Sign Fireman Gives N5,000 To New Members / Scientists' Comments On The Scientific Miracles In The Holy Qur'an.part 2
(Go Up)
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 115 |