deSika: let me at this point highlight that you are seriously running on assumptions(non facts). Most of your points are hinged on assumptions and It is wrong to live on assumptions.

For example your claim that other religions started out on a pure note but later deviated is unfounded.
Let it be clear to you that those religions budha, hindu etc started out exactly as what you can see them doing today. You can google hindu and budha and see wat the originators brought. Nothing has changed. They started out as pagan and are very much pagan today.[go on on google and search for history of budha,hindu]
The same can be said for christianity. There were no deviations but only that in the case of christianity there has always been misinterpretations and heresies but no utter deviation from the main stem which is Jesus and what he came to do.

2. I dont buy the idea that jewish historical stories were muslims in the way muslims are today.

For one, the bible from which you get your stories is being accused to be not 100% truth. But you seem to bypass this logic when you delve into it to acquire stories that support ur viewpoints. NOW HOW CAN YOU TRULY POINT OUT TO US THAT THOSE PARTS OF THE BIBLE YOU PASTED ARE NOT AMONG THE CORRUPTED PART OF THE BIBLE. Including all those other parts that alledgedly point to Jesus saying Allah, Mohamed beinng comforter etc.. Your answer as expected would be based on assumption.

This is what i want you to know. If the bible is not true then you are not to take ANY part of it. For as it is, you cannot tell which parts are corrupted or not. for example the verse you use to point that Jesus mentioned Muhameds name also talks about God being a father yet Muhamed says God does not beget..so is the part that says "i will pray the father" corrupted while the part that says "to send you the comforter" not corrupted.

But this is my position. The bible is true allround that is why u can guiltlessly open it and believe some parts of it. But you have to do better. You have to accept all of it. its either you take all or you take non..something that is polluted cannot be trusted. But when u find ursef trusting some part you are being deceptive to yourself. I will be opening a thread on this bible corruption issue soonest.

seconndly there are some other things these exampls of urs from the bible did that muslims dont do today. that disqualifys them also there are some thinngs moslems do today that they didnt do..these exampls you bring from the bible did not do ALL the points rasied in the Op and as such cannot pass for muslims..


The available evidence from the bible does not in any part show us any of these early muslims derived from the bible worshipping any entity known as Allah. The bible gives us the many terms referring to God and never ever used the word Allah. There was no place showing where these jewish patriachs calling their God Allah..instead they referred to their God as Elohim, Yahweh..
Allah being an arabic word would not have been pronounced by hebrew speaking jews. The Allah as represented in quran is in contrast to the God as represented in the bible.


3. we have EVIDENCE of what happened in the Kabba before Mohamed came but there is no evidence that a one God was worshipped there. From this i can conclude that Mohamed speculated/assumed against any evidence that a one God was once worshipped in Kabba . Its an assumption because he was not in the time of Abraham to have known what Abraham did

history has it that kabba was a place of idolatory during the early life of Muhammad and you attest to this.that same history has it that Allah was one of the dieties worshipped there. At this point history stops and never tells us about Abraham and Ismael building any Kabba. But one thing we know Muhammed assumed that it was Abraham and Ishmael that built it as he was not there at the time and the people at the time did not have knowledge of such. So i can say he assumed but ofcos from an alledged revelation.

another reason why i can safely say Muhammed assumed is that once upon a time he changed the direction of prayer to Jerusalem and then back to Mecca. if he was so sure that Abram built that Kabba why would he change direction of praying from what God authorized Abraham to build

4. I can conclude that there were no muslims before Muhamad in arabia becos of the following reasons.
A. At the time of Muhammad early life. Idol worship was predominant in the Kabba. Most of the rituals undertaken by muslims today were actually practised by those idol worshipers such as circumbulating the kabba, kissing of stone etc
B.. there is no evidence of any group of people worshipping in mosques before Mohamed. Rather the people that were doing some of these things such pilgrimage, kissing stone., going round kabba were actually idol worshippers.
C. Muhamads fathers name was. Abdallah. . Was his grandfather who named his father a muslim. No he was pagan and he named his son after his pagan god. There is a story
From the above we see that there were no Muslims before Muhammad came. Muhammad started a new religion.

Muhammed started a religion but his new religiion eliminated some aspects of idol worship such as the associating of idols with Allah and left some..such as the circumbulating of kabba, the kissing of stone etc.

Please teach them Islam because its like everybody now-a-days worships what he grew up to see his father doing and could even kill to defend it

nagoma:

Thank you for you patience brother Ayenny02. But this fellow deSlika is not worth your time. He is not out to learn but to ridicule and enhance hatred. His religion of 3 gods cannot answer even one of similar questions. You are too good for him.

is this all you have to say. not even one proof that islam existed before Muhammed.

my dear, if islam did not exist before Muhammad.. it means Adam. Abraham, Moses etc were not muslims. and if this is true. then Muhammad and Allah lied to you.

question why do you keep believing a lie..

......bro, you are welcome to the world of truth.

@desika is one repertoire of knowledge. Thanks a lot for this illumination

blink182: Now that it is a Muslim thread, Seun has permanently fixed a warning to dissuade people from mocking allah and Muhammed but it is completely cool for people to ridicule and mock God the mighty Father and Jesus.

Like this comment if you agree with me that there should be a warning like this with Christian threads.

Unnecessary! God and Jesus can bear mockery. They're used to it and patiently hold back judgment until you're dead. We follow our Leader's example. He isn't allergic to ridicule and mockery and doesn't want us fighting for Him.
The story is told of the patriarch Abraham who received a stranger into his home. He noticed his guest didn't offer thanks before eating. On further examining the man, he found out that the old man didn't believe in God. Abraham sent him out in anger. God came to Abraham and asked him about the man He (God) had sent to Abraham to show hospitality. Abraham told God that he chased the man out because he didn't believe in God. God now told Abraham "I've put up with his unbelief for 80years and you couldn't endure him for just one night?". Abraham ran out and brought the man back home

Nagoma and co, no intention of derailing your thread whatsoever! Do please answer my questions

Gabriel_sylar: Am trying all my best and common best to understand islam I just can't gerrit

please read this thread,it will tell you what you need to knw,its an eye opener for me:

https://www.nairaland.com/86405/comparison-between-bible-quran-proof

https://www.nairaland.com/175953/ex-muslim-nairaland-talks-why

please make sure you read all.

deSika: . Prior to Islam the Kaaba of Mecca was covered in symbols representing the myriad demons , djinn , demigods , or simply tribal gods and other assorted deities which represented the polytheistic culture of pre-Islamic Arabia . It has been inferred from this plurality an exceptionally broad context in which mythology could flourish. [1] Many of the physical descriptions of the pre-Islamic gods are traced to idols , especially near the Kabba, which is asserted to have contained up to 360. [1] Gods The main god in the Arabian peninsula was Hubal ( Arabic: ﻞﺒﻫ), who is regarded as the most notable and chief of the gods. The Kaaba may have been dedicated to Hubal. [1] An idol of Hubal said to have been near the Kaaba is described as shaped like a human with the right hand severed and replaced with a golden hand. [2] The three daughters of Hubal, and chief goddesses of Meccan Arabian mythology, were Al-lāt , Al-‘Uzzá , and Manāt . Each is associated with certain domains and had shrines with idols located near Taif [3] which have been destroyed. [4] Allāt (Arabic : ﺕﻼﻟﺍ) or Al-lāt is the goddess associated with the underworld . [5] Al-‘Uzzá (Arabic : ﻯﺰﻌﻟﺍ) "The Mightiest One" or "The Strong" was an Arabian fertility goddess. She was called upon for protection and victory before war. [6] Manāt (Arabic : ﺓﺎﻨﻣ) was the goddess of fate, the Book of Idols describes her as the most ancient of all these idols. An idol of Manāt was erected on the seashore in the vicinity of al- Mushallal in Qudayd, between Medina and Mecca. The Aws and the Khazraj, as well as the inhabitants of Medina and Mecca and their vicinities, venerated Manāt and performed sacrifices before her idol, including offering their children. Pilgrimages of some Arabs, including the Aws, Khazraj, Yathrib and others, were not considered completed until they visited Manāt and shaved their heads. [7]
source: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_mythology

Guy,you must have murdered a lot of pple in that directio.well enjoy the convo and welldone with ur research.kudos for being an evangelist of truth.

deSika:

you are welcome

facing anywhere is not significant as far as you know that whatsoever direction you face you have Gods attention. why would direction of prayers cause disunity. fact is GOD IS EVERYWHERE. and as such you can face ANYWHERE.
I was trying to point out to you that this Kabba u are facing was used to worship pagan gods.

now thats what am trying to point to you. you have evidence that idols were worshipped but you dont have evidence of Abraham building the mosque, its best an assumptionn. except you can prove it.
my dear, you are still circumambulating and that is a pagan act in itself as pagans did it.
evidence pls
. it has always been idolatrous from time immemorial..disbelief did not set in guy. as it is there is noevidence of people praying in a mosque, engaging the five pillars of islam before Mohammed.
lie. if Adam was a muslim where did he worship.. if Abraham built the first place of worship that means Adam was not a muslim as he didnt have a Kabba to worship. but you say he is a Muslim. Can you do yourself a favour and stop spinning yourself into lies. its not helping you..

Lastly,the black can neither harm the muslims nor benefit us,muslims just kissed because prophet muhammed(pbuh) kissed it, you do what you cant explain why its been done. what else defines blindly following than this. Kissing is a sign of affection.. you kiss what you admire or love... when Muhamed kissed the stone. he was showing affection,. admiration. worship for the stone. and guess wat the stone was an idol/god..

the call for prayer(adhan) was made on it,no idol worshipper will never stand on its idol,not possible.If the black stone is an idol then we muslims should be bowing to it(nauosubillah)but we never bow,bow only to ALLAH....Salam
does not remove the fact that the stone was an idol/god..

Brother as I said your reasoning isn't that high,just hate islam with passion no problem.Answers to your question it's mentioned in surah Al-baqarah 2;125-127 that abraham(pbuh) and Ismail(pbuh) built the kabba read it up yourself.Brother a muslim is someone that submits his will to ALLAH.You said adam(pbuh) never prayed in the kabba,he's not a muslim that's a lie.Being a muslim then doesn't mean one must prayer in the kabba the first quality of a muslim is tauhid(oneness of God) and all prophets of ALLAH believed in his oneness.To the prayer,the most important part of SOLAT(prayer) is the sujood(prostration)and most or all of the prophets made sujood jesus(pbuh) also made sujood,when he prayed to God at the gate of gethsame asking him to let the cup pass over him(matthew 26;39).Prophet muhammed(pbuh) is last and final messenger of ALLAH,the perfector of the religion of ALLAH,so ALLAH gave him and his followers the 5 daily prayers.As ALLAH said in the glorious quran surah Al-maidah 5;3-'today,i have perfected your religion for you,completed my favors upon you and have chosen islam for you as your religion'.All the prophets(peace be upon them all) do give charity,they all observe fasts(not necessary to be in the month of ramadan).To the circumambulating around the kabba in an unclad state ALLAH said in the glorious quran surah Al-araf 7;28-'and they committed a evil deed,going round the kabba in a naked state,great sins and unlawful sexual intercourse,they say;we found our fathers doing it and ALLAH has commanded it on is.Say;ALLAH never command such thing.Do you say of ALLAH why you know not?''.We face the kabba because our lord(ALLAH) commands us to do so,take it or leave it.How won't it makes a difference when I told you it's not possible for an idol worshipper to stand on his god,they stood on the black stone make the call for prayer(adhan)on it,you are adamant...That's the answers to your question brother.

I don't know why they use the Bible to validate their quran,yet they say the Bible is corrupted(and they can't produce the time it was corrupted,who corrupted it and how).
Allah and mohammedd was never mentioned in the Bible,yet they will do everything to proof otherwise.

God help us all.
Pls for those who want the truth,check this out

https://www.nairaland.com/86405/comparison-between-bible-quran-proof

https://www.nairaland.com/175953/ex-muslim-nairaland-talks-why

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/sina/jews.htm

smtimes I ask myself wat is xtianity.jesus was neva a xtian nd neva preachd xtianity al prophets of God were nt xtians... Wat did dey cum 2 preach ,dat dere is only 1 God nd notin else nd we shld nt associate partners wit him,is dis nt wat islam preaches...it is as simple as ABC. we muslims shldnt waste our time wit dis ignorant pple.dats al I wanna say

A very good thread!!!

Like seriously you guys expects yours faithfully to read all these boring epistles?

At topic you want muslims to teach me islam so i become a muslim? To be honest Islam really has nothing to offer me except maybe when my future wife fvcks up i can legally cheat on her with clear conscience by bringing in 3 extra women women.

But of course you know that's not gonna happen so i think i'll pass.

I think nairaland.com or who ever moderating this forum is anti Christians. What ever you like ban me. Am not for recruit for dam brainwashed or tying bomb on my waist.

Stop bombing us that's all, we don't really care about Islam or knowing what islam is .stop the bombings and the "religion shoving" and everything will b fine

adeola555: smtimes I ask myself wat is xtianity.jesus was neva a xtian nd neva preachd xtianity al prophets of God were nt xtians... Wat did dey cum 2 preach ,dat dere is only 1 God nd notin else nd we shld nt associate partners wit him,is dis nt wat islam preaches...it is as simple as ABC. we muslims shldnt waste our time wit dis ignorant pple.dats al I wanna say

Stop the bombing. Religion is not by force. Christian will never force u or kill u in name of God or whoever

Why do muslims always quote the Bible when preaching while christains don't quote Quran when they do

Hmmm! this thread is food for thought. My question is all these is to what end? But me, I sense confusion in the threads. Questions is sebi it is for people to go to heaven!. the people your are fighting for are somewhere laughing their heads off. CONFUSED MORTALS. Did the ALMIGHTY (i will used that to denote our creator)complained to us mortals about our diversed religion. Who has gone to heaven/aljanah and come back to say this is what takes there (heaven/aljanah is filled with only pegans). I am afraid for mankind not to blow themselves out of existence for what they know not in the name of religion. If your religions suites u continue with it and if id does not them get the hell out of it.

Finally maybe religion is what will bring an end to humanity so if it is .................. THEN LET THE FIGHT BEGINS. idioooots

¤~

CAMEROONPRIDE: Stop bombing us that's all, we don't really care about Islam or knowing what islam is .stop the bombings and the "religion shoving" and everything will b fine

sam4xadams: I think nairaland.com or who ever moderating this forum is anti Christians. What ever you like ban me. Am not for recruit for dam brainwashed or tying bomb on my waist.

Paschal007: Like seriously you guys expects yours faithfully to read all these boring epistles? At topic you want muslims to teach me islam so i become a muslim? To be honest Islam really has nothing to offer me except maybe when my future wife fvcks up i can legally cheat on her with clear conscience by bringing in 3 extra women women. But of course you know that's not gonna happen so i think i'll pass.

like seriously did you guys read through the thread.....

This thread should be closed. It should be how Muslim can fight or declare jihad on boko boys?

U knw wat mister u can' never gain knwledge wit wat u jst said nw.non of u knw wat islam is al about. Dnt judge a religion by d people. Go nd learn abt islam

Evidences That Reveal that the unbelievers of Prophet Muhammad's time (SAW) Knew Allah as Supreme Being, and not one of their Idols
Say: Unto Whom (belongeth) the earth and
whosoever is therein, if ye have knowledge?
They will say: Unto Allah. Say: Will ye not then
remember? Say: Who is Lord of the seven
heavens, and Lord of the Tremendous
Throne? They will say: Unto Allah (all that
belongeth). Say: Will ye not then keep duty
(unto Him)? Say: In Whose hand is the
dominion over all things and He protecteth,
while against Him there is no protection, if
ye have knowledge? They will say: Unto Allah
(all that belongeth). Say: How then are ye
bewitched? Quran 23:84-89
And if thou wert to ask them: Who created
the heavens and the earth, and constrained
the sun and the moon (to their appointed
work)? they would say: Allah. How then are
they turned away? Allah maketh the
provision wide for whom He will of His
bondmen, and straiteneth it for whom (He
will). Lo! Allah is Aware of all things. And if
thou wert to ask them: Who causeth water
to come down from the sky, and therewith
reviveth the earth after its death? they verily
would say: Allah. Say: Praise be to Allah! But
most of them have no sense. Quran 29:61-63

I have only one question becos I don't know anything abt islam even though some of my family members are moslems.

As pastors open churches can imams open their own mosque like that?

adeola555: smtimes I ask myself wat is xtianity.jesus was neva a xtian nd neva preachd xtianity al prophets of God were nt xtians... Wat did dey cum 2 preach ,dat dere is only 1 God nd notin else nd we shld nt associate partners wit him,is dis nt wat islam preaches...it is as simple as ABC. we muslims shldnt waste our time wit dis ignorant pple.dats al I wanna say

i guess you will say Jesus preached islam and also all the prophets preached islam...smh.

Seriously,u don't know anything about christainity neither do u knw anything abt islam!
Please read the threads i posted above...they will help alot.

History is against you guys...

God bless us all.

through jihad and following the teachings of boko haram leader

The Quran further states that the Unbelievers' reason
for worshiping these other gods was so
that they might get closer to Allah: The Supreme Beign
Surely pure religion is for Allah only. And
those who choose protecting friends beside
Him (say): We worship them only that they
may bring us near unto Allah. Lo! Allah will
judge between them concerning that
wherein they differ. Lo! Allah guideth not
him who is a liar, an ingrate. Quran. 39:3

adeola555: smtimes I ask myself wat is xtianity.jesus was neva a xtian nd neva preachd xtianity al prophets of God were nt xtians... Wat did dey cum 2 preach ,dat dere is only 1 God nd notin else nd we shld nt associate partners wit him,is dis nt wat islam preaches...it is as simple as ABC. we muslims shldnt waste our time wit dis ignorant pple.dats al I wanna say

Pple like u give other moslems a bad name becos of ur impatience to teach others. How dare u call Christians ignorant? Its not by quoting quoran that pple will learn about ur religion. For ur information Christianity means Christ-like. How do u expect other prophets to be Christ-like since they were b4 Jesus? now bye!

deSika:




like seriously did you guys read through the thread.....

Paschal007: Like seriously you guys expects yours faithfully to read all these boring epistles?

Mamacita007:

Pple like u give other moslems a bad name becos of ur impatience to teach others. How dare u call Christians ignorant? Its not by quoting quoran that pple will learn about ur religion. For ur information Christianity means Christ-like. How do u expect other prophets to be Christ-like since they were b4 Jesus? now bye!

Hello 007

Paschal007: Hello 007

Stop learning bad tins from wizkid's tease me this is a religious thread hahahahaa

deSika:
its agood thing that you saw the truths in my first points about not using bible examples as early muslims and my point on the hindu/budha and as such you could not say anything on them. atleast i am making some progress with you.


the christian translation of hebrew God to Allah is clearly misguided.
The arabs before Mohammed knew their Allah as one that had relations(daughters and sons) with other gods even though they gave him a higher status. he was one of their gods. what Muhammed did was to repackage Allah as monoeisthic and referring to the creator.He fought against the use of relating Allah the cheif god with other gods. Mohameds influence was far reaching and so Allah came to be known as the creator God. so that is wat it is now to all Arabs. so there is the original initial meaning and the present day meaning. But Muhammad did not completely eradicate the rituals associated with these idols.. He allowed for the circumbulation of the kabba, kissing of stone, pilgrimage etc as was used by the pagans to be used by his followers

let me say it like this.
there is a particular village that worships so many gods but they refer to one particular idol as the cheif of these gods. they call this cheif god Sango. In their dialect Sango means cheif god but this cheif god was the father of other gods who had diferent other roles such as fertility, war, success etc. This cheif gods particular role was protection of the village. With time, someone came to the village and started telling them of an almighty God(not a small god) remeber this village refers to Sango as almighty since he is the chief. as people began to accept this visitors God. they began to refer to this new God as Sango since to them Sango represents cheif. so now they call this new God cheif/Sango. as generation pass by Sango is now generally accepted as the Almighty God. they replaced the Sango(idol)whose primary role is protection with Sango (God).creator God

the igbos are a clear example to this. Initially Chi was an igbo god. when christianity came the igbos now refer to Almighty God as Chi. when they say Chi ukwu(chukwu) it means big God to diferntiate him from other chis/gods. They also say chi neke (God that creates) to refer to this particular God that creates. The former diety was never worshipped as a creator.. so you see Chi has not always being used to refer to a creator God but a diety who had its main function and never claimed to create. but now Chi is being used as to refer to God the creator.

its just a situation of change in representations.

so Allah changed from a chief god with relations to Al Uzat etc to a monotheist creator God. but even this new concept of Allah as used by Muhammed does not fit into what Elohim/Yahweh represents.
there are so many reasons why i say this. but i will just give a few
1. Elohim is refered as father but Allah as represented by quran does not beget
2. Allah contradicts many things Elohim said.
3.. Allah seemed to endorse lust to his prophet by allowing him marry several wives. a prophet is supposed to be more sober and restrictive than ordinary followers.
4. Allah's worshippers still engage in rituals engaged by pre islamic pagans.


so the arabs used to refer to a cheif god hubal as Al-ilah(the god). but now they refer to a creator God as Al-ilah(the god) due to influence of islam. but the deity being refered to as a creator God is not the same as the creator God that has being known before. it seems to me that some other diety is impersonating, using the creator God title to attack the real creator God that has being before.(this explains why this impersonator is almost totally against the creator God that has been before and his worshippers. this explains why this impersonator has taken the holy site of the creator God that has been before. this explains why this impersonator has commanded his followers to curse, bomb, subject to second class status by paying jizyah the worshipers of this God that has been before).

like i told you in the other thread. you and Mohamed are not in the right religion the religion as practised by Moses and Aaron. You are not doing so many things Moses and Aaron did. They washed themselves yes but they also used arks, alters, anointing oils, Bread, incense, burnt offerings in their worship and this you are not doing. It means you have missed it.

Allow me to direct you to the people who still follow Moses. Yeah the Jews. We will begin with their religous books. Then from then we can move on.

After all i have said. Pls dont stay back in a wrong religion. I know it may be difficult but its a worthy price to get the real deal..

CHEERS.
$&¤~ deSika .....gladly at your service

There are ninety-nine names or attributes of Allah. Are these names different gods? You are asking him to follow your religion when you are clearly mischievious even in your attempt to politely rebutting his facts? What do you want him to serve? Lies or one of the Israeli prophets as god?