I believe if the Mali Empire(under Mansa Musa) was more of a military society and there wasn't no Sahara desert. I believe they could have easily conquered Europe and do much better than the Moors. pleep is right...Mansa should have spent some more on military, But the Mali Empire like I said was more of a 'African Athens' with focusing more on education. But seriously he could have easily conquered neighboring Berber tribes...Next would be the Iberian peninsula and the Mediterranean area...Next could have been Western Europe(France/UK)...And then he could have tried for Central and Northern Europe possibly. I mean Europe wasn't sh*t back than.

Hell Haiti could have conquered the Caribbean and of the South of the US after their independence. But sadly that did not happen.

pleep: People love to talk about how great mali is, but i call BS... were are all the stone buildings? were is the remains of greatness, did rome's monuments disapear after the empire collapsed?

All mali has left is some mosque made out of mud, MUD

IIRC the type of area they live in didn't have the material to build stone structures. Also some Northern African kingdoms also used mud.

^ thats the saddest part.

The eygptians didn't have all the stone they needed either... they had to conquer the people in south, and transport 30 ton blocks of stone up the nile river and others were dragged hundreds of miles though the gotdamn dessert!

Mali had enough money to buy all the stone he needed, and pay people to carry it across the Sahara. But they would rather just use mud

pleep: ^ thats the saddest part.

The eygptians didn't have all the stone they needed either... they had to conquer the people in south, and transport 30 ton blocks of stone up the nile river and others were dragged hundreds of miles though the gotdamn dessert!

Mali had enough money to buy all the stone he needed, and pay people to carry it across the Sahara. But they would rather just use mud

True true. I cant deny this. But Mali wasn't the only one to use mud, but kingdoms in the north too.

Why are we comparing Africas greatest kingdom to some crumby sandman kingdoms in North Africa?

Mansa Musa had 400 billion dollars in gold, and control of the worlds supply of salt.

pleep: Why are we comparing Africas greatest kingdom to some crumby sandman kingdoms in North Africa?

Mansa Musa had 400 billion dollars in gold, and control of the worlds supply of salt.

The Mali Empire was not Africa's greatest civilization...

^ You think it was Songhai?

nevertheless, i think you missed the main point of that post.

THIS was Africa's greatest Kingdom/empire/civilization...
[img]http://1.bp..com/-_Plnuqgc71M/UFeg1LsMy2I/AAAAAAAAACk/9VhWozNUu6Q/s1600/Giza_Pyramids_Cairo_268__6A_1293.jpg[/img]

So great that both Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics obsess over it.

sigh. true true.

pleep: ^ You think it was Songhai?

nevertheless, i think you missed the main point of that post.

Nah.

Ancient Egypt, it was more advanced than any civilization and its structures still stand today. And probably forever.


And what did I miss?

I mean the Mali Empire was incredible. Don't get me wrong, but it wasn't the greatest. Just because Mansa Musa was the richest person does not mean his empire was the greatest.

I know this is a st*pid a$$ comparison(please dont make fun of me). But Aliko Dangote is said to be the richest man in Africa, yet South Africa is more advanced than Nigeria(no offense). The same can be said with Mansa Musa and the Mali empire.

Its not like musa was the only rich man in mali, it is ostensible that mali was the richest nation on earth. Not only did they control the world supply and price of gold, but they had most of the worlds salt mines.

Salt was worth is weight in silver at that time.

Did anyone get my Abd Al-Abdulla joke?

^ bam... finally someone gets it.

The guy was a straight up coooooon.

pleep:
"The discovers" by daneil j. Boorstein lists those as tributary states.

Yes, exactly.

I haven't actually read the book to see how he justifies calling them tributary, but I have to ask, how is giving another group a giraffe (after they give you gifts as well) the same as being tributary to that group?

China had no tributaries in Africa. China perceived or considered virtually everyone that they came into contact with as their tributaries because of the superior self-conception they had of their nation relative to others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tributaries_of_Imperial_China

Take the Milandi giraffe example for instance: http://books.google.com/books?id=Xuq7QCmY6jQC&pg=PR9

The giraffe had some special cultural significance for them because it resembled a divine animal from their mythology, so when the Chinese emperor received the giraffe he interpreted it as proof of his perfection and they classified Malindi as tributary just for giving that one gift. China did not have authority over these places.

Hearing your explanation, i actually agree with your point of view more than the author of the book.

China had no tributaries in Africa. China perceived or considered virtually everyone that they came into contact with as their tributaries because of the superior self-conception they had of their nation relative to others:

This is basically the crux of the matter.

Im just saying that is the way the source portrayed it.

^^^ lmao ayanle, Somalia should read that

CAMEROONPRIDE: ^^^ lmao ayanle, Somalia should read that

somali people are actually heavily mixed with chinese sperm.

@ physics To further that point.... i also think China's "tributary" system resulted in a net loss of money

I believe that was also mentioned in the book.

pleep: somali people are actually heavily mixed with chinese sperm.

Sharrap jor you want him to hang himself.
The dude is pure, and his people have never been enslaved

pleep: lol did this stop the Morrocans from conquering the Songhai with a measly 2500 troops?

Did that stop the muslims states from fighting with each other?

I love religion... islam is a great religion, but why is it that when a negro gets religion he goes over board with it and self destructs?

There is something wrong with the brain here... this is a man who had control of almost all the salt and gold in the world, he could have recruited a mercenary army bigger than anything else on earth. Just compare him to the Phoenecians (Cartheginans) who raised an army big enough to take on Rome based on mercenary troops alone.

Musa was not even smart enough to capture a foothold in the mediteranian... he had the logistics to transport 60k men and billions of Gold and all he did was give it away.

dumb dumb dumb

Morocco invaded and looted Songhai because of its wealth. Are you saying that Mansa Musa, who was extremely wealthy and had a prosperous kingdom should have spent his time and wealth invading north Africa, the middle East, and the Mediterranean to acquire even more wealth, even though his nation was already very wealthy?

Instead he wanted to gain as much knowledge as he could from other Muslims, and you're calling him dumb for that?

Mansa Musa was in his mid-40s (near the end of his life) when he went on that pilgrimage and perhaps he had matured and was no longer a young warrior king type, full of war-lust and wealth-lust, but had become more interested in the acquisition of knowledge.

But who knows, maybe he still had imperial ambitions and he and his commanders thought about world conquest and talked about it, but realized that the long distance across the desert that would have to be crossed by hundreds of thousands of soldiers and carriers of supplies in order to invade and conquer these places, and the military risk (to their home base) and cost of such an expedition, and the possible disruption in profitable trade with North Africa that could follow, and the infeasibility of holding together such a far flung and diverse empire (if they did succeed in their conquests) without internal rebellions bringing down the empire, made the entire idea unworkable or pointless. Maybe they realized all of this, and settled for learning instead of engaging in additional campaigns of expansion because they thought they weren't in a position where they could really pull it off successfully.

And if Mali had gone on to become highly technologically advanced or become one of the intellectual leaders in the world, instead of declining greatly and becoming a much weaker kingdom economically, militarily, and intellectually, you wouldn't be calling him dumb today, but praising him for laying the foundations for such a society.

On the giving away of gold, I don't see what the big deal is. He had an immense amount of it, and he handed some gold dust to peasants and beggars to improve their lives. So generosity is stupidity? He was a devout Muslim, so he arranged for many mosques to be built (assuming that story is true) during his pilgrimage so that more people who believed in the same religion as himself could worship properly. But you say he should have been hiring legions of mercenaries to conquer half the world. . .and that doesn't sound like a highly implausible and unreasonable course of action to take to you? I still don't see what the motivation for that would have been.

PhysicsQED:

Morocco invaded and looted Songhai because of its wealth. Are you saying that Mansa Musa, who was extremely wealthy and had a prosperous kingdom should have spent his time and wealth invading north Africa, the middle East, and the Mediterranean to acquire even more wealth, even though his nation was already very wealthy?

Instead he wanted to gain as much knowledge as he could from other Muslims, and you're calling him dumb for that?

Mansa Musa was in his mid-40s (near the end of his life) when he went on that pilgrimage and perhaps he had matured and was no longer a young warrior king type, full of war-lust and wealth-lust, but had become more interested in the acquisition of knowledge.

But who knows, maybe he still had imperial ambitions and he and his commanders thought about world conquest and talked about it, but realized that the long distance across the desert that would have to be crossed by hundreds of thousands of soldiers and carriers of supplies in order to invade and conquer these places, and the military risk (to their home base) and cost of such an expedition, and the possible disruption in profitable trade with North Africa that could follow, and the infeasibility of holding together such a far flung and diverse empire (if they did succeed in their conquests) without internal rebellions bringing down the empire, made the entire idea unworkable or pointless. Maybe they realized all of this, and settled for learning instead of engaging in additional campaigns of expansion because they thought they weren't in a position where they could really pull it off successfully.

And if Mali had gone on to become highly technologically advanced or become one of the intellectual leaders in the world, instead of declining greatly and becoming a much weaker kingdom economically, militarily, and intellectually, you wouldn't be calling him dumb today, but praising him for laying the foundations for such a society.

On the giving away of gold, I don't see what the big deal is. He had an immense amount of it, and he handed some gold dust to peasants and beggars to improve their lives. So generosity is stupidity? He was a devout Muslim, so he arranged for many mosques to be built (assuming that story is true) during his pilgrimage so that more people who believed in the same religion as himself could worship properly. But you say he should have been hiring legions of mercenaries to conquer half the world. . .and that doesn't sound like a highly implausible and unreasonable course of action to take to you? I still don't see what the motivation for that would have been.

Good post.

You explained things better than I did. Mali was like a 'African Athens'. They focused more on education/art than war.

Morocco invaded and looted Songhai because of its wealth. Are you saying that Mansa Musa, who was extremely wealthy and had a prosperous kingdom should have spent his time and wealth invading north Africa, the middle East, and the Mediterranean to acquire even more wealth, even though his nation was already very wealthy?

Instead he wanted to gain as much knowledge as he could from other Muslims, and you're calling him dumb for that?

Mansa Musa was in his mid-40s (near the end of his life) when he went on that pilgrimage and perhaps he had matured and was no longer a young warrior king type, full of war-lust and wealth-lust, but had become more interested in the acquisition of knowledge.

What im basically getting from this is that the most praised, and perhaps most note-worthy man in African history, was an average intelligence, average ambitioned buffoon.

Who probably would have been better off as a cleric than a ruler.

You say that his age may have tempered his war like spirit, but did that stop him from waging war on Gao and other small muslim African states? Why was he a lion to his own people and a house cat to other races?

Mali was by definition an empire, and that neccesitates a tradition of war and conquest. Musa was simply not intelligent enough to extend this to spheres outside is immidiate vicinity.

This was probably caused by a mix of the instant slave mentality a foreign religion brings and Musas own meekness and lack of creativity.

But who knows, maybe he still had imperial ambitions and he and his commanders thought about world conquest and talked about it, but realized that the long distance across the desert that would have to be crossed by hundreds of thousands of soldiers and carriers of supplies in order to invade and conquer these places, and the military risk (to their home base) and cost of such an expedition, and the possible disruption in profitable trade with North Africa that could follow, and the infeasibility of holding together such a far flung and diverse empire (if they did succeed in their conquests) without internal rebellions bringing down the empire, made the entire idea unworkable or pointless. Maybe they realized all of this, and settled for learning instead of engaging in additional campaigns of expansion because they thought they weren't in a position where they could really pull it off successfully.

This is the core of the problem!

Musa was able to transport... "60,000 men, 12,000 slaves who each carried 4-lb. gold bars, heralds dressed in silks who bore gold staffs, organized horses and handled bags. Musa provided all necessities for the procession, feeding the entire company of men and animals.[8] Also in the train were 80 camels, which varying reports claim carried between 50 and 300 pounds of gold dust each."

...Across the Sahara desert and provide food and supplies for them for several years. This is a number of men larger than the Greek force at Gaugemala, larger than the Hannibals force at Nannae, and larger than Napoleons force at the Battle of the Pyramids

And they were almost all fighting age males!

This shows us that the suppliy lines across the sahara were water-tight and that Mali was unequivocally the most wealthy nation on earth at that time.

And army of 60'000 with such a well established supply line could have taken over all of North Africa with ease.

On the giving away of gold, I don't see what the big deal is. He had an immense amount of it, and he handed some gold dust to peasants and beggars to improve their lives. So generosity is stupidity? He was a devout Muslim, so he arranged for many mosques to be built (assuming that story is true) during his pilgrimage so that more people who believed in the same religion as himself could worship properly. But you say he should have been hiring legions of mercenaries to conquer half the world. . .and that doesn't sound like a highly implausible and unreasonable course of action to take to you? I still don't see what the motivation for that would have been.

If he is so great and generous why didn't he free the 12,000 black slaves he dragged across the Sahara, is generosity only deserved by Arabs?

And if Mali had gone on to become highly technologically advanced or become one of the intellectual leaders in the world, instead of declining greatly and becoming a much weaker kingdom economically, militarily, and intellectually, you wouldn't be calling him dumb today, but praising him for laying the foundations for such a society.

Physics why did Mali decline?

Because it was led by dumbasses, that don't know when to seize oppurtunity! When empires stop aquireing new power they stagnate... what did Mali's "great learning" do for Africa? All they were learning was how to kiss Arabic ass with greater effectiveness.... ill bet 90% of their learning was just Arab script and the rest was memorizing the whole Koran by heart, something most Arabs didn't even bother doing.

Mansa-Musa did nothing for Africa, I tell you most American students think he is just an exaggerated Afrocentric myth.

Did you know that Malien gold financed the Italian renaissance? This dumb coon made it possible for the Europeans to advance to the point where they colonized us!

Now i apologize for the foul language, but i am legitimately angry right now. Mansa Musa was a gotdamn coon

interesting thread. and i understand the point of view of the op.

an army of 60,000 able-bodied men is a bit too much to transport across the sahara solely for religious purposes and not a military expedition. i guess nothing blinds the negro more than religion.

pleep: ^ thats the saddest part.

The eygptians didn't have all the stone they needed either... they had to conquer the people in south, and transport 30 ton blocks of stone up the nile river and others were dragged hundreds of miles though the gotdamn dessert!

Mali had enough money to buy all the stone he needed, and pay people to carry it across the Sahara. But they would rather just use mud

You do not fully understand what you're arguing about. Ancient Egyptians only built their temples and other important buildings out of stone, nothing else.[link].

The greatest cities as proclaimed by foreigners were made almost entirely out of mud and some stone. The early version of what become the great pyramids, the mastaba, were made out of mud bricks. In order to keep the multi-layered mastaba (which ultimately became a pyramid) standing they switched to limestone.

This map shows where limestone caves are found:



The Chinese you are raving about didn't build the majority of their buildings out of stone, but wood.

^ Good post

However... you are missing the point a little. The only reason why i started talking about china was because the topic got side-tracked... whether or not the majority of buildings were made out of wood has nothing to do with anything.

1700 London was majority made out of wood.... and so was 1940's japan.

What matters is the structures they built. And Mali cannot compete on that level.


I understand that is largely because of geographic reasons, and not the people themselves.... but the point still stands

Governments build stone buildings... the regular people use mud, wood or w/e. Thats a given

pleep: ^1700 London was majority made out of wood.... and so was 1940's japan.

What matters is the structures they built. And Mali cannot compete on that level.

And can you explain the structural details of Malian and London/Japan buildings so we know how they cannot compete? Aren't the beams used to hold up upper floors in Mali the same used in London? Aren't the window fittings and roof seals in Mali comparable to Japan? What makes Japan and London so special? Because they took on the architecture of the Romans and Chinese?

pleep: Governments build stone buildings... the regular people use mud, wood or w/e. Thats a given

And Ancient Egyptian upper classes lived in mud building that weren't as grand or as spacious as that of aristocratic Nigerians 500 years ago.

I heard Timbuktu back then was bigger than London.

ezeagu:

And can you explain the structural details of Malian and London/Japan buildings so we know how they cannot compete? Aren't the beams used to hold up upper floors in Mali the same used in London? Aren't the window fittings and roof seals in Mali comparable to Japan? What makes Japan and London so special? Because they took on the architecture of the Romans and Chinese?

Dude. you people always miss the point

The point is everyone built stuff out of wood up until the 1940's... that is not anything particular. Even a good percentage of houses today are made entirely of wood.

The mosque at timbuktu is magnificent structure, but i think that with the resources available to Mali at that time they could have done much better.

When we want to compare the archetecture of a specific culture... u gotta look at the stuff the government built, not the common people.