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| Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino1: 1:20pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
mostly people Unitarians like frosbel, ijawkid truthislight will twist verse trying to say that Jesus is created. When we read the bible, the bible is very clear when God create something, the word “Created” is used… In revelation 3:14 new world translation 14“And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God," They will try to tell you that Jesus is created, Now I can’t seem to find the word “created” in this verse, I guess the Word beginning must mean created  that Jesus had a beginning.The same Greek word is also used revelation 22:13(new world translation).13I am the Al′pha and the O‧me′ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end… Now in this verse it’s talking about the father… Now why is it Ok that the father doesn’t have a beginning but when it talks about Jesus in rev 3:14, Jesus have a beginning? Does rev 22:13 means the father had a beginning and he will have an end? NO!!! The word beginning in Greek is ar-khay’ and it means source or origin this is where we get the word architect from, it means chief builder. An archbishop is head of bishops. The same Greek word is used in Luke 20:20 New world translation “20And, after observing him closely, they sent out men secretly hired to pretend that they were righteous, in order that they might catch him in speech, so as to turn him over to the government and to the authority of the governor.” As you can see they translated it as government and the same Greek word is also used in Romans 8:38 new world translation “38For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers39” still they translated it as government and other bibles translate it as ruler. In order words revelation 3:14 Jesus is the head of creation. In John 1:3 the bible says all things were made and came into existence through him; and without him was not even one thing made that was made… Question if without him nothing came into existence how come he came into existence? This is a question they can’t answer :p in the new world translation it reads “the beginning of the creation by God” but in the Greek it says something different it reads “of God” and not “by God” NWT translation wahala. So in rev 3:14 Jesus is the head of creation of God that means he is the ruler of God creations or the Source of God's creation one of this meaning is through not that it means God created Jesus first. Another verse they will use to show that Jesus is created is Colossians 1:15. Now I can’t seem to find the word “created” in this verse  I guess the word Firstborn must mean created (SMH) in psalms 89:27 new world translation “27Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, the most high of the kings of the earth.” But King David was the lastborn (youngest) son of Jesse so he wasn’t even a firstborn. The bible also tells us that Ephraim was Jehovah God firstborn in Jeremiah 31:9 new world translation “9with weeping they will come, and with [their] entreaties for favor I shall bring them. I shall make them walk to torrent valleys of water, in a right way in which they will not be caused to stumble. For I have become to Israel a Father; and as for Ephraim, he is my firstborn.” But Ephraim have an older brother called Manasseh. So even Ephraim wasn’t a firstborn. Furthermore in Genesis 48:17-19 new world translation “17When Joseph saw that his father kept his right hand placed on E′phra‧im’s head, it was displeasing to him, and he tried to take hold of his father’s hand to remove it from E′phra‧im’s head to Ma‧nas′seh’s head.18Hence Joseph said to his father: “Not so, my father, because this is the firstborn. Put your right hand on his head.” Now how can Jehovah God have 3 firstborn? Another question they can’t answer… even when triplets are born there is always a first born even if the children are 10 minutes apart if you are a twin or triplets you know what I mean In Colossians 1:15-16 JWs believe the father created Jesus, Jesus was the father’s master worker everything was created through Jesus. Let’s read Colossians 1:15-17 new world translation 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;16because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.17Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, “ you guys can see how this verse contradicts John 1:1-4 “without him nothing came into existence” now look at Verse 17 of Colossians you see how they contradict there self? Anyway I will continue, he created invisible thrones through him and for him. Other bible says everything was created through him and for him. So that means that the throne in Heaven was created by him and for him. But wait oh!! Colossians says he created throne and for Hebrews 1:8-10 new world translation .”8But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.” this is the wahala when the bible is tampered with... Did Jesus created the Father? It says in colossians that he created the thrones now in hebrew it says God is your throne meaning he created the father? Na wao!!!! Back to Colossians 1:15-18 the bible doesn’t tell us that Jesus was created he is the firstborn of all creations and the firstborn of the dead… in others words he is in charge of all creations and in charge of death. See the meaning of Preemminence = firstborn. If firstborn means first created that means Jesus was created twice. Now they will try to use Proverbs 8:22-28 new world translation 22“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.23From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.24When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water.25Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains,26when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.27When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,28when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong,” Let’s identify who the “ME” and “I” is… the first Proverbs chapters 1-9 is identified as wisdom and female pronouns are used (her, she, sister, and woman). In proverbs 7:4 wisdom is a sister and in poverbs 8:12 wisdom lives with shrewdness. The bible tells us that Christ is the power of God and wisdom of God in 1 Corinthians 1:24 new world translation “24however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” Another question comes out was there a time that God was without power? As well as wisdom? Let’s see what Romans 1:20 says new world translation “20For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;” You see that here His power is eternal but they say he created his wisdom how can you guys be so contradictory? From your bible it clearly shows Gods power is eternal you can see other better translation like the KJV… going back to proverbs 7:4 wisdom is a female ” Say to wisdom: “You are my sister”; and may you call understanding itself “Kinswoman,” and when they get to chapter 8 they can’t have Jesus as female so they use “it” “Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice?2On top of the heights, by the way, at the crossing of the roadways it has stationed itself.3 at the side of the gates, at the mouth of the town, at the going in of the entrances it keeps crying loudly:” Then in chapter 9 they change it back to a she again see how they do with the bible? “Whoever is inexperienced, let him turn aside here.” Whoever is in want of heart—she has said to him” In the new world translation proverbs 7:11 (she is boisterous) referring to wisdom. And in chapter 8:1 (its voice) referring to wisdom and in chapter 9:13 wisdom who is a woman is boisterous. Hardly the language one will use for Jesus. JWs will always read Proverbs 8:22-25 but if you also read 26-29 new world translation “26when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.27When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,28when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong,29when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth,” what I want to know is who is the “HE” in this verse that created the heavens and the foundations of the earth  In Hebrews 1:8-10 new world translation “8But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.9You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”10And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands.” As you can see the father is speaking about the son [img]C:\Users\benjimola\Pictures\jw.PNG[/img] Now see the picture above from their bible the Jehovah there is Jesus when you link it to Hebrew I just quoted. In psalms 102:24-25 new world translation ” 24I proceeded to say: “O my God, Do not take me off at the half of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. 25Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” It is talking about God… so proverbs 8:22-28 “22“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.23From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.24When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water.25Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains,26when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.27When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,28when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong,” is talking about when Jesus created he used wisdom. John 3:16 is another verse they will use to show that Jesus is created… now I can’t seem to find the word Created, I guess only begotten must mean Created :p the bible tells us in Hebrews 11:17 new world translation “17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up [his] only‐begotten [son],” but we know that Abraham had more than one son, Isaac have an older brother Ismael But Isaac was one of a kind. In Philemon 1:10 new world translation “I appeal to you for my child Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my imprisonment,” Paul never had any children so Paul did not create him. Or are you people going to tell me Paul created him? In Acts 13:33 “33that God has entirely fulfilled it to us their children in that he resurrected Jesus; even as it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my son, I have become your Father this day.” Psalms 2:7 “7Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.” Other bible translate I have begotten thee… but as you can say this verses clearly states that when God raise Christ is that day he was begotten. As you can also see Jesus was and always exist before he was begotten Philippians 2:5-11 New International Version (NIV) 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature[a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!
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| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by ijawkid(m): 4:56pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
Now let us consider the revelation 3:14.... You did well by defining what beginning is (arche) and also stating God is said to be the alpha and omega....... Correct...... But like I have asked you before can we say the Father is the beginning of Gods creation??....can we say God is the beginning of Gods creation??....you failed to see that point with all the rant in this post.... Now when it is said the Father is the beginning and the end what does it mean??..... Does it mean the same thing when it is said Jesus is the beginning of Gods creation??...... Now let's look at scriptures from which the expreSsion is taken from... Remember,the scriptures explains itself.... I had quoted these scriptures before but you found it very very hard to explain,infact you were confused while answering them..... King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power: Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) Reuben, you are my firstborn, my strength and the firstfruits of my virility, excelling in prominence, excelling in power. I have brought out a verse to juxtapose with revelation 3:14....you have not done it but rather defined what beginning means only...... Now from the scripture quoted what does reuben being the beginning of Jacobs strength or virility mean??....may I remind you that the same greek words occur in the greek septuagint translation at the above gen 49:3 quoted.... 1...Is reuben the source of jacobs reproductive powers or the first product of jacobs reproductive powers??..... The Father is said to be the beginning and end ....Jesus is said to be the beginning of Gods creation.......totally different things...... Please let us use scriptures to answer scriptures.... After this I'll come to firstborn....we go dey do am small small..... |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by Nobody: 4:58pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
Both you and the JWs have missed it, Jesus was born through a woman, end of. |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by ijawkid(m): 5:11pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
frosbel: Both you and the JWs have missed it, Jesus was born through a woman, end of. We are goint to drive home the same point that Jesus had a beginning......  |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by Nobody: 5:14pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
ijawkid: and his beginning was from Mary , you cannot have two beginnings.  |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino(m): 5:20pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
ijawkid: Now let us consider the revelation 3:14.... That becoming of my strength should read source of my strength... Beginning of my strength doesn't make sense... Translation wahala... Arch means source also. I explained it well on the post. If it says GOD is the beginning whether creation or not it doesn't mean he has a beginning and it doesn't mean he has end too... The post made it clear. That verse should read source... the Holman bible you quote remove beginning because it doesn't make sense to say beginning of my strength rather it is sensible to say source of my strength. |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by ijawkid(m): 5:25pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
benalvino: Please let's discuss a replica in the greek septuagint..... I have brought out a perfect replica...infact both firstborn of and beginning of is used for reuben..... I quoted another rendition alongside it for you to get the main point..... Now I would ask again... If u insist reuben is the source of Jacobs virility how does that make sense??...... Does it exempt reuben from Jacobs kids??...... You can't just say that verse should read source and then you run away..... Let us use this genesis 49:3 as a case syudy and get down to business.... The Jw's have considered similar use of such expressions in the scriptures to aRrive at the results they have today.... Nobody assumed it......juxtapositions brought it out........ The expression beginning of is not new to the scriptures...it had occured several times before it was used on Jesus in revelation 3:14.... Oya let's consider reuben then we get back to Jesus....... And I noticed u never brought out all the examples of the use of firstborn..... We will get to that... |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by ijawkid(m): 5:27pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
And please be ready to tell us if these expressions can be said of the Father.... Can the Father be the firstborn of all creation since he and the son are co-equal... Can the Father be the beginning of Gods creation??......... Oyaaa..... Let us look at these scriptures critically and apply it to all members of the Godhead so to speak..... |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino(m): 5:28pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
Frosbel lol... Jesus know mary since she dey her mother womb. |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino(m): 5:51pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
ijawkid: And please be ready to tell us if these expressions can be said of the Father.... it shows that he is the Lord of Creation of God... he created all things he starts all things he is the source in which the universe came to be. can the father be the beginning of God creation? how can he? it doesn't say he created Jesus in rev 3:14. the bible says Jesus is his word his power and wisdom... I cant tell when God didn't have all this attribute. if you still think Jesus was created by God then the contradiction that arise you have to clear them here... Let me quote Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. and All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by italo: 6:03pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
frosbel: "Before Abraham was, I AM."--Jesus. |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by ijawkid(m): 6:08pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
benalvino: That is why I am asking when Jesus is said to be the wisdom,power and word of God is it trying to tell us that Jesus was in Gods brain and was in Gods vocal cords or he was literally Gods power??...... Now we have still not analyzed the genesis case study I brought up so that we can get to the main meaning of Jesus being the beginning of Gods(another persons) creation........I want you to critically analyze that well brought out scripture so that we can reach a concensus It is obvious Jesus isn't the God mentioned in revelation 3:14 of which he is the beginning of the creation of that GOD... And how does the expression lord of creation of God sound in your ears?? The Lord of the creation of GOD contradicts what ever you are supporting...... the truth is this expression should never have been used on Jesus if he never had a beginning...... Colossians says he is the ## head of the church ##firstborn from among the dead(did Jesus not die being part of the class of the dead so as to become firstborn among those who died and who will test ressurection) ##the image of God.. ##..firstborn of all creation.... Now the question comes...... 1..Who made Jesus head of the church??... 2...How is Jesus the firstborn among the dead??..... I can see you concured to the fact that the Father can't be the beginning of Gods creation even when you boldy stick to the definition that beginning of means source....... Now the question is why can't the Father be the beginning of Gods creation from your definition of beginning of and your belief in the trinity....??..... |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino(m): 7:11pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
ijawkid: I have told you he is the Source of the creation of God... it goes with colossians and John 1:1-3 this are all definition from dictionary. in my original post I made research for "ar-khay' which means source, origin and in this dictionary meaning you see source and origin is there... 1. The act or process of bringing or being brought into being; a start. 2. The time when something begins or is begun: the beginning of the war. 3. The place where something begins or is begun: at the beginning of the road. 4. A source; an origin: What was the beginning of the dispute? 5. The first part: The front matter is at the beginning of the book. 6. An early or rudimentary phase. Often used in the plural firstborn from among the dead(did Jesus not die being part of the class of the dead so as to become firstborn among those who died and who will test ressurection)again he wasn't the first from the dead... you can say the first that resurrected with eternal life... ok why didn't the bible just say first from the dead? if you read further you will see "in everything he will have preeminence" he conquered death that is it... he is above death. see the example when God made david his firstborn... it means David was above all the Kings and Israel was above all the nations when God made Israel his firstborn. One side of your argument firstborn means First created or birth. another side of your argument it means first to raise up from the dead... then why still use firstborn in that case? When Jesus was in Heaven he was a spirit when he came to earth he was describe as the exact representation of GOD image. So? he has all the authority... the church is his bride. the church is the body and he is the head. Jesus is the source of all creation the father is the source of all creation too... Jesus is the beginning and end so is the father... the bible says the whole universe heaven and earth is intact because of him. New American Standard Bible (©1995) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together it is talking about Jesus... Rev 3:14 you problem is that you want jesus to be created so seeing beginning you want to use it... I don explain to you that its source, ruler or oringin of GOD's creation... Oringin and Source equals beginning... now lets look at all the translation and see how they did it. and if KJV they try to play wayo them go be the last people to put beginning there... which means KJV is not biased. New International Version (©2011) "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. New Living Translation (©2007) "Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen--the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's new creation: English Standard Version (©2001) “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation. New American Standard Bible (©1995) "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; [/b]Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) "Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, [b]the Originator of God's creation says: International Standard Version (©2012) "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this: NET Bible (©2006) "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: "This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God's creation: Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010) “And to The Messenger of the assembly of the Laidiqians write: “Thus says The Eternal, The Trustworthy and True Witness, and The Source of The Creation of God:” GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says: King James 2000 Bible (©2003) And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; [/b]American King James Version And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things said the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the [b]beginning of the creation of God; American Standard Version And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: Douay-Rheims Bible And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God: Darby Bible Translation And to the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: English Revised Version And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: Webster's Bible Translation And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Weymouth New Testament "And to the minister of the Church at Laodicea write as follows: "'This is what the Amen says--the true and faithful witness, the Beginning and Lord of God's Creation. World English Bible "To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things: Young's Literal Translation 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God; |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by ijawkid(m): 7:53pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
benalvino: Now you forgot about 1 corinthians 8:6 Which emphasizes on the Fact I'm harping on..... 1 Corinthians 8:6 King James Version (KJV) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by(through) whom are all things, and we by him. Now I want you to notice what I'm noticing..... The son isn't the source of all things because Jesus himself has his own source as the Father....... Now this is why Jesus can rightly be called the beginning of the creation of God.... benalvino: Now from the bolded can't we say Jesus is part of the things created but the first??.... When we say the beginning of the war.....can we say the starting point of that war isn't part of the war ??...... If I say the front matter is at the beginning of the book...isn't the front matter part of the book but at the first part??..is the front matter outside the book??... How can Jesus be the beginning of Gods creation and not be part of the creation but the first of it.... benalvino:Now I'm showing you what firstborn means in all its sense when applied to Jesus...... Now let us analyze isreal being Gods firstborn....isn't isreal the first nation God had ever dealt with??....uh??.... God created that nation but the first... Now when it is said Jesus is firstborn from the dead it simply means he is the first person God ever resurrected to immortality and also to heavenly life....he is the firstfruit of those who have died and who would expereince ressurection....now I wouldn't exempt Jesus as someone who didn't taste death all in the end just to name him firstborn.....Jesus didn't conquer death by just sitting in heaven with his Father..he tasted death and was ressurected by his Father that is why he is rightly called firsborn(first fruit) from the dead...read 1 corinthians 15:20,23 Remember colossians was all about Jesus being firstborn in all ramifications.... benalvino:And he still is the image of God in heaven...how about that??....and guess who made him the head of the church.??....his Father...I hope you know??... And God his Father gave him the authority....and ofcousre his Father who gave him the authority is excepted,while Jesus is under his authority...don't forget to add that clause.... benalvino:Jesus is the beginning of Gods creation....the Father isn't and can't be.....he is the source of Jesus' life and existence...... The scriptures says the whole universe came through him....the Jesus himself lives because of the Father... benalvino: When it says all things it excepts the Father who isn't the beginning of Gods creation but includes Jesus who was formed but first...... benalvino: You only explained with the dictionary alone...I explained with a juxtaposed verse with the same exact words and expressions coupled with your dictionary meaning.......... You never answerd my question as to how reuben is the beginning of jacobs reproductive strenght....is he the source or a part of jacobs progeny but the first?? Remember the Jw's have allinged this expression with other exisiting expressions to get the full gist...... benalvino: Now they have translated the beginning of Gods creation to mean the head of Gods creation....and how sweet of you to use other renditions..... Now can we apply this rendered verses to other verses which existed before this verse that used the expression beginning of and still get the same meaning??........ Please read genesis 49:3 and also deuteronomy 21:15-17 and apply your definition of beginning of and let's get the true meaning...... Please open these same translations and do the research ....... The scriptures must explain itself and not some greek philosphical base doing it for us..... Let us consider in all of the scriptures where this expression is used and get the meaning..... Thank you... 1 Like |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino(m): 8:06pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
ijawkid: read my original post... you will see the beginning explained using your bible... I should you all the definition which include source and origin also... they quote verses parallel to rev 3:14 like john 1:1-3 colo 1:15. yet you take meaning that contradict the whole thing... from your bible beginning is rendered as Government(ruler ship) it obvious you running away from fact. so the son is the source of other things? clap for your self |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by MightySparrow: 8:13pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
The thread is not worth arguing about. If you have problem about Jesus' identity get to reading the Bible alone and get rid of books and interpretations of Bible by so called teachers they mislead. Jesus said ' the word I speak unto you are spirit and truth....' I John 2: 27 you do not need any teacher to mislead you. Do not be lazy start from Genesis through revelation and again, One JW was taunting me years ago. That led my into the scriptures without reading any other books or very few books. By the time I read seven times I made up my mind to join a denomination I found out is in line with the meaning of scriptures. I found out if you read to argue or criticise you WILL see the beauty, the intent and content of the Bible. I await your testimony if you follow this humble advice. |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino(m): 8:16pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
Mighty Sparrow: The thread is not worth arguing about. If you have problem about Jesus' identity get to reading the Bible alone and get rid of books and interpretations of Bible by so called teachers they mislead. Jesus said ' the word I speak unto you are spirit and truth....' I John 2: 27 you do not need any teacher to mislead you. Do not be lazy start from Genesis through revelation and again, One JW was taunting me years ago. That led my into the scriptures without reading any other books or very few books. By the time I read seven times I made up my mind to join a denomination I found out is in line with the meaning of scriptures. I found out if you read to argue or criticise you WILL see the beauty, the intent and content of the Bible. I await your testimony if you follow this humble advice. lol am just surprised as clear facts are stated yet excuse arise |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by ijawkid(m): 8:19pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
benalvino: Naaa........ Beginning of someone elses work,acts and doings is what we are looking at and not just the mere word beginning........... Please open your eyes..... I would show you something now...so that even the chief of Gods creation you are holding on to still boils down to the fact that Jesus is part of things created but the first.... Let's consider psalm 78:51 where this same expression is used...I want you to compare these scriptures and see the point I'm making..... New International Version (©2011) He struck down all the firstborn of Egypt, the firstfruits of manhood in the tents of Ham. New Living Translation (©2007) He killed the oldest son in each Egyptian family, the flower of youth throughout the land of Egypt. English Standard Version (©2001) He struck down every firstborn in Egypt, the firstfruits of their strength in the tents of Ham. New American Standard Bible (©1995) And smote all the firstborn in Egypt, The first issue of their virility in the tents of Ham. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham: Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) He struck all the firstborn in Egypt, the first progeny of the tents of Ham. International Standard Version (©2012) He struck every firstborn in Egypt, the first fruits of their manhood in the tents of Ham. NET Bible (©2006) He struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, the firstfruits of their reproductive power in the tents of Ham. Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010) He killed all the firstborn of Egypt, the first of all their children in the tents of Ham. GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) He slaughtered every firstborn in Egypt, the ones born in the tents of Ham when their fathers were young. American Standard Version And smote all the first-born in Egypt, The chief of their strength in the tents of Ham. Douay-Rheims Bible And he killed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt: the firstfruits of all their labour in the tabernacles of Cham. Darby Bible Translation And he smote all the firstborn in Egypt, the first-fruits of their vigour in the tents of Ham. English Revised Version And smote all the firstborn in Egypt, the chief of their strength in the tents of Ham: Webster's Bible Translation And smote all the first-born in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham: World English Bible and struck all the firstborn in Egypt, the chief of their strength in the tents of Ham. Young's Literal Translation And He smiteth every first-born in Egypt, The first-fruit of the strong in tents of Ham Now juxtapose all the other renderings with the KJV who used chief of The literal word there projects arche of,but all these renderings have even gone further to explain it...... These firstborns were the first of or the beginning of(chief of) the reproductive powers of the egyptians..... They were amongst the begeted sons of the egyptians but the first..... My point:::..... Even if we say Jesus is the chief of Gods creation it doesn't exempt him from being part of Gods creation,it only shows he is the first of it..... For goodness sake we are talking about Gods creation and not Jesus' creation..... I want you to use scriptures to project meanings not just what you have done... Remember we are not defining just the single word arche,we are considering this word when used in an expression(beginning of) addressed to someone who is tied up to someone elses activity....... 1 Like |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by ijawkid(m): 8:21pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
Mighty Sparrow: The thread is not worth arguing about. If you have problem about Jesus' identity get to reading the Bible alone and get rid of books and interpretations of Bible by so called teachers they mislead. Jesus said ' the word I speak unto you are spirit and truth....' I John 2: 27 you do not need any teacher to mislead you. Do not be lazy start from Genesis through revelation and again, One JW was taunting me years ago. That led my into the scriptures without reading any other books or very few books. By the time I read seven times I made up my mind to join a denomination I found out is in line with the meaning of scriptures. I found out if you read to argue or criticise you WILL see the beauty, the intent and content of the Bible. I await your testimony if you follow this humble advice. And which denomination are you with now??..... The discussion is still on o.... Please read what the supposed source of all life said....... New International Version (©2011) Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. New Living Translation (©2007) I live because of the living Father who sent me; in the same way, anyone who feeds on me will live because of me. 1 Like |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino(m): 8:22pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
ijawkid: Can we conclude that Jesus create him self? since you want the bible to contradict it self |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by ijawkid(m): 8:26pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
benalvino: Naaa....Jesus was created by the Father whom he owes his life and existence to.... Thank you.... You still can't answer why the Father can't be the beginning of Gods creation.....or maybe the holy spirit.... |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino(m): 8:43pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
ijawkid: that's a silly question. the father is the beginning and the end... beginner of existence... same with Jesus. Jesus is GOD... he has all the features of God... Only God creates... nothing was created by angels man or whatever... only God alone creates. So Jesus is GOD. |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by ijawkid(m): 8:49pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
benalvino: Ahhh I see.... I can see that you can't provide the right answer..... And now you are hearing that Jesus' own life was kick started..... He is the very beginning of Gods creation..... Your case would have been remedied if revelation says Jesus Christ is the beginning of Jesus' creation..... But as it is he is the beginning of someone elses creation....... Now answer my question... From your stiff necked definition of Christ being the beginning of Gods creation,can we also say the Father is the beginning of Gods creation.....??.... And mind you:::....the Father is greater than Jesus..... 2 Likes |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by FromGuiriga(m): 8:56pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
benalvino: Is Jesus the Father? |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by FromGuiriga(m): 9:01pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
benalvino: No! We cannot conclude that! "...I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father..." 1 Like |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino(m): 9:19pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
From_Guiriga: nope |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by FromGuiriga(m): 9:46pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
benalvino:Exactly! "...And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent...." 1 Like |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino(m): 9:50pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
Isa 44:24, "I am the LORD, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone, who spreads abroad the earth by myself." Chapter 45:12, "I have made the earth, And created man on it. I; My hands; stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded." Chapter 40:12,13, "Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, Measured heaven with a span And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains in scales And the hills in a balance? Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or as his counselor has taught him?" Job 9:8, "He alone spreads out the heavens, and treads on the waves of the sea." These are magnificent descriptions of the creating power of God, and exceed every thing of the kind that has been attempted by the pens of the greatest sages of antiquity. By this operation God is distinguished from all the false gods and fictitious deities which the blinded nations adored, and shows himself to be the true God. Jer 10:11 "Thus you shall say to them: "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens. He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, And has stretched out the heavens at His discretion." Psalm 96:5, " All the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heavens." Isa 37:16, "You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth." None could make the world but God, because creation is a work of infinite power, and could not be produced by any finite cause: For the distance between being and not being is truly infinite, which could not be removed by any finite agent, or the activity of all finite agents united. This verses are clear proof that Jesus is God... the Word is GOD. the only thing you can say is that Jesus did not take part in the creation |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino(m): 9:52pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
From_Guiriga:Yeah I know... so when you Read john 1:1-14 what did you learn? |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by FromGuiriga(m): 9:57pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
benalvino: The word is godly. The word of God dwelt among us. Tell me where did I go wrong here? |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by ijawkid(m): 10:01pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
benalvino: Isa 44:24, "I am the LORD, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone, who spreads abroad the earth by myself." Chapter 45:12, "I have made the earth, And created man on it. I; My hands; stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded." Chapter 40:12,13, "Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, Measured heaven with a span And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains in scales And the hills in a balance? Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or as his counselor has taught him?" Job 9:8, "He alone spreads out the heavens, and treads on the waves of the sea." These are magnificent descriptions of the creating power of God, and exceed every thing of the kind that has been attempted by the pens of the greatest sages of antiquity. By this operation God is distinguished from all the false gods and fictitious deities which the blinded nations adored, and shows himself to be the true God. Jer 10:11 "Thus you shall say to them: "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens. He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, And has stretched out the heavens at His discretion." Psalm 96:5, " All the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heavens." Isa 37:16, "You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth." None could make the world but God, because creation is a work of infinite power, and could not be produced by any finite cause: For the distance between being and not being is truly infinite, which could not be removed by any finite agent, or the activity of all finite agents united. Please how does the above solve the problem of Jesus not being the first of Gods creation??...... God is over all and so can make that statement.....if God says he single handedly carried his people through the hard times from egypt to isreal,how does that contradict the fact that he did it through an agent MOSES How does the scripture u quoted remedy you from the fact that Jesus existence is linked to his Father and that Jesus had a beginning....... |
| Re: Was Jesus Created Or People Misunderstand The Bible? by benalvino(m): 10:02pm On Jun 13, 2013 |
From_Guiriga: The word is GOD... only GOD can create. |
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