turnstoner: great submission, @dalaman:

Unfortunately,this contradiction that you have so succinctly pointed out is lost on most people.

They are to happy with their precious little beliefs to even ponder for a second what you and I already know:

...that religion is a fraud !

Logicboy03: Deep stuff, man.


It pains me truly when I see some christians smiling when they say that atheists will go to hell despite their good deeds. Bill Gates foundation saved thousands of children, yet he should burn in hell for being a disbeliever. The sad thing is that many of these same christians have not done on iota of charity for their neighbours yet they open their mouth to say that good atheists will go to hell. It is not hell that bothers me but the depraved mind that wishes it to be true with anticipation.


If christians at all want to sell their religion, they have to show it. Do good and let others see your works....judging and casting people to hell will only turn people against you

striktlymi: Good day dala,

Do you know what it means to believe in Christ? At least since you have been going on and on about it, it is expected that you know what it means.

Anyways, what I see in your OP is frustration and misunderstanding...I say this with every ounce of respect.

dalaman:

I have lost my belief or faith in Christianity and God. My take is since there is no cosmic balance of justice here on earth, it means that the responsibility is ours to do all that we can to ensure that justice is done here and now. If we don't do it, no one else will do it for us. The belief that there will be cosmic justice eventually sounds very appealing because it allows us to think that, regardless of what happens here, good will triumph. However, this removes from us some of the responsibility to get things right here and now. The afterlife system of justice it self is completely unjust . It's very sadistic in my opinion.

dalaman:

Good day to you too. This is not a thread about my belief in Christ.

dalaman:
Its a thread about the justice talked about in the afterlife. Do you consider it to be a just system? Yes or no. If you consider it to be a just system, then tell me why you think it is as a Christian.

dalaman:
I admit that its frusstrating that so many people hold such beliefs but I don't think there is anything that I do not understand.

dalaman:
Care to show me where my misunderstanding stems from?

striktlymi:

Don't be alarmed, I know what the thread is about and that is why I did not ask about your belief in Christ. I only asked you if you know what it means to believe in Christ

I know that the system applied by God is just but I can't explain why until we are on the same page here, hence the question I asked you.

In order for us to proceed with this discourse meaningfully, it is expedient I get your understanding on the phrase "believe in Christ".

I understand how frustrating such things can be but c'mon do you honestly believe you understand everything in your OP? I am a Christian and I do not hold the belief that every 'non-Christian' will go to hell.

I believe you misunderstand what it means to believe in Christ.

dalaman:

OK. I know what it means to believe in Christ. The bible says for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so "[b]that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.". To believe in Christ is to accept what the bible says about him, he is the son of God who came to wash away the sin of the world and pay the price. Believing also means accepting all of Jesus' teachings.




I have answered that.





The reality of the thing is that it has nothing to do with what you hold. Many Christians disagree with the bible on many things. But that doesn't change the biblical position. The bible is very clear, he that does not believe is condemned already, Jesus is the only way to God and no one can go to God except through him, there is no where in the bible that says unbelivers will go to heaven or accepted to be with God, there are many places that say unbelievers will be or are condemned.




What does it mean to believe in Christ?

dalaman:

OK. I know what it means to believe in Christ. The bible says for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.". To believe in Christ is to accept what the bible says about him, he is the son of God who came to wash away the sin of the world and pay the price. Believing also means accepting all of Jesus' teachings.

I have answered that.

dalaman:
The reality of the thing is that it has nothing to do with what you hold. Many Christians disagree with the bible on many things. But that doesn't change the biblical position. The bible is very clear, he that does not believe is condemned already, Jesus is the only way to God and no one can go to God except through him, there is no where in the bible that says unbelivers will go to heaven or accepted to be with God, there are many places that say unbelievers will be or are condemned.

Okay, fair enough! The reference to John 3:16 is very much in order...Now for you, belief in Christ entails two things: Accepting Christ and accepting his teachings...this is not far from the truth but there is more to this...

Belief in Christ is not about professing faith in Christ and his teachings...it goes beyond these. One can profess faith in Christ and his teachings on the roof tops and still not be a believer in Christ. The Apostle James puts it beautifully:

James 2:19-20
Good News Translation (GNT)
19 Do you believe that there is only one God? Good! The demons also believe—and tremble with fear. 20 You fool! Do you want to be shown that faith without actions is useless?

Even the devil believe in Christ but what separates a true believer from the devil is the individuals actions. Hence to believe in Christ is to do right by him...nothing more and nothing less.

James 2:14-17
Good News Translation (GNT)

14 My friends, what good is it for one of you to say that you have faith if your actions do not prove it? Can that faith save you? 15 Suppose there are brothers or sisters who need clothes and don't have enough to eat. 16 What good is there in your saying to them, “God bless you! Keep warm and eat well!”—if you don't give them the necessities of life? 17 So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead.

I pay little attention to popular opinion...like you rightly pointed out, what matters is what Sacred scriptures has to say about the matter.

I see that you fall into the trap of hanging on to one part of Sacred scriptures without looking at it holistically. It is quite common so I won't blame you for it.

Since I have explained what it means to believe in Christ using Sacred scriptures, my task now is to attempt an explanation on the bold.

But before I do, can you please tell me what you understand by the scriptural references below:

John 3:18
Good News Translation (GNT)
18 Those who believe in the Son are not judged; but those who do not believe have already been judged, because they have not believed in God's only Son.

Luke 9:49-50
Good News Translation (GNT)

49 John spoke up, “Master, we saw a man driving out demons in your name, and we told him to stop, because he doesn't belong to our group.” 50 “Do not try to stop him,” Jesus said to him and to the other disciples, “because whoever is not against you is for you.”

John 10:16
Good News Translation (GNT)
16 There are other sheep which belong to me that are not in this sheep pen. I must bring them, too; they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

mazaje: This isn't addressed to me but will answer all the same. . . .




Good, but that is not the main issue here, the main issue is if unbelievers will be judged and will make heaven. The bible very clearly says they will not. As for works, the jury is not yet out on that because in some passages of the bible it emphasis faith and not good works, some books of the bible clearly state that faith alone is enough. The bible says unbelievers are condemned and that I believe is what dalaman was talking about. . .

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Galatians 2:16
A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 3:20, 28
By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight. (v.20)
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory? (v.28)


That aside, the bible does not say any where that unbelievers will see and be with God. In many places it says they will or are condemned already as I have stated earlier on.




You see, what you are doing here is what actually made me leave Christianity, nothing in the religion is straight forward. Let me explain, you see, you went and took an English translation of John 3:18 that means and says something differently from what other English translation are saying as if that is what the bible says.He quoted the same verse from the NIV and it says condemned not judge. It is my understanding that many modern translations of the bible of which the GNT is one tweak and spin the original language to make it look less sexist and less offensive. I have attended a debate about it in London some years ago.

If the English bible has different translations that render same the meanings of the same passages differently , then why call the bible the word of God? Is the NIV the word of God? What about the GNT? They are all giving the same passage very different meanings and saying very different things, which is the right translation to you?

Let me give you what other translation of the same verse have to say about it. All are John 3:18

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Those who believe in him won't be condemned. But those who don't believe are already condemned [/b]because they don't believe in God's only Son.

King James Bible
He that believeth on him [b]is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

International Standard Version
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's unique Son.

Webster's Bible Translation
He that believeth on him, is not condemned: but he that believeth not, is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God

These are just a few from the other English translations that I just looked up. Please tell me why should I accept the GNT over the majority?

The bible in many places has stated that unbelievers are condemned already. . . .

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Please show me just once place in the bible that says unbelievers will see God and be with him. I can show you so many places that says they will be dammned for their unbelief. The bible is very clear about it, but I understand that you disagree with the bible which so many common in Christendom, many Christians disagree with the bible, which is why there are many different English translations of the bible and many sects. . . .



This passage according to my understanding is about Jesus telling his disciples not to stop a man from casting demons in his name. He then goes to tell them that who ever is not against you is for you. But from the verse you could see that the guy clearly believes in Jesus else he will not be using his name to cast out demons. . . . .




Here Jesus to my understanding is saying that there are other people out there that are not where he is but need to reached out to by him so that they can come and be under him. Non of the verse come close to saying that unbelievers will be saved. NO where does the bible say or claim such. . . .

striktlymi:


Sorry bros but the fair play rule has been violated, I can no longer continue with the discourse.


#A bit sad and disappointed!

striktlymi:


Sorry bros but the fair play rule has been violated, I can no longer continue with the discourse.


#A bit sad and disappointed!

mazaje:

Meaning? I can't come in and chip in?. . .

striktlymi:


Don't tempt me

mazaje:

Logicboy03:

The trolling episode is still affecting him......one doesnt recover from depression easily

benodic:
Justice does not wait for the afterlife. there is true divine justice in operation in the universes and it starts here and now. The law of karma or the principle of cause and effect ensures that whatever you throw into life returns back to you.

There is no escape from it. Jesus Christ even made reference to this law when he said that God is not mocked that whatsoever a man soweth so shall he reap. This law applies to all souls irrespective of their religion or race and whether you believe or not.

It is outrageous to even think that someone can lead a life full of good deeds to fellow souls and then end up in a hellish place just because he does not believe in a particular belief.

This misconception of divine justice has lead to a lot of evil in the world today where someone believes that he can blow up fellow human beings and then enjoy in heaven or someone who has been stealing from people and committing atrocities will end up in heaven just because he believes in a particular belief. it does not work that way at all. what ever you sow you will surely reap. it is just a matter of time

The concept of divine justice as advocated by religions like Christianity and Islam is very unjust simple.

muafrika:
You've been too quiet dalaman.

Whats cooking?

turnstoner:


JUSTICE:

Yes, we want here on earth;

under the sun moon and stars!

The people who propounded afterlife justice knew that the only way to make it credible to gullible people was to make it.... afterlife. After all no one will come back from the dead to debunk them

lastmessenger:
I am personally convinced that Christianity is not a religion like we have Islam or budhism. Christianity is more like a system of life that is controlled by the almighty powerful God. What am I trying to say? My point is that some people believe in Christ even when they don't realise it. The spirit of Christ acts on everyone and gives us the opportunity to become like Christ. Men like bill gate as you mentioned above have responded to the Spirit of Christ and that is why he is doing what he is doing. I beg to say that bill gate will not go to hell as most professing Christians think.
There is something behind the action of any good man that you see and that thing is what I referred to as the spirit of Christ. People don't just wake up to do good things. Love poured into the believing heart by the spirit of Christ is what motivates them and the bible let us know that God is love.
Let me also that some people who call themselves Christians will not be saved because in their hearts they are far away from God. They only worship God with their lips.

lastmessenger:
I am personally convinced that Christianity is not a religion like we have Islam or budhism. Christianity is more like a system of life that is controlled by the almighty powerful God. What am I trying to say? My point is that some people believe in Christ even when they don't realise it. The spirit of Christ acts on everyone and gives us the opportunity to become like Christ. Men like bill gate as you mentioned above have responded to the Spirit of Christ and that is why he is doing what he is doing. I beg to say that bill gate will not go to hell as most professing Christians think.
There is something behind the action of any good man that you see and that thing is what I referred to as the spirit of Christ. People don't just wake up to do good things. Love poured into the believing heart by the spirit of Christ is what motivates them and the bible let us know that God is love.
Let me also that some people who call themselves Christians will not be saved because in their hearts they are far away from God. They only worship God with their lips.

johnydon22:

habaaaaaaa..... chai chai chai.... SMH... ... Bill Gate is an atheist; Oh he is an agent of the devil... Bill Gate is a humaniterian more many christians; Oh he is just responding to the spirit of christ which he unknowingly believe in.
Guys when will u all wake up from this delusion... no force pushes us to do what we do, no supernatural power not jesus, not allah or any supernatural being u like. we do thing cus we want to and we chose to.... am sure u will flare up when a muslim pops in now and start saying bill gate was just responding to the spirit of allah... Wake up guys this concept of afterlife is one of the biggest fallacies
religion have used on the world.