Reyginus: That's my reason for bringing up this problem.
I know God cannot sin. I believe it must be a case of a lower being not equal in reasoning to a higher one. But I also still believe brethrens here will help.
..
Let me get you right. Is forgiveness dependent on remorse, to be actualized?

dont try to get anybody right Js tell us wat ur inner most heart, instinct or conscience tells u abt 4giveness

Reyginus: Thank you very much. The question now is, why are we expected to forgive even those who show no remorse when God will not do the same?

My last reply fully,concisely & completely answers that question.I felt you are an honest seeker & thats why I took pains to answer that question.I answer no more.

Reyginus: You seem to be arguing that for forgiveness, to exist, the consequences of the injury to be forgone must also exist.
In essence, indirectly, you are saying that 'to forgive' is dependent on consequences channelled with the ability also, of the offender to grasp it.
Now, i'm beginning to reconsider. Maybe my understanding of the concept is wrong, to begin with.
What is forgiveness, in simple terms?
This will help a lot.

The bolded I well understand, the meaning you drew out from it I don't.

I did take the bolded for granted. And I'm quite surprised that you appear ignorant of it. I don't think there's anything novel about my assumption. If there were no consequence for offence, what is the meaning of forgiveness? In fact, how is anything an offence if there is no repercussion for it?

I would rather hear what you thought forgiveness is so we can begin from there.

Now forgiveness of sin is d mere overlookin of wrong done as if it were nt done.
Pi) we r not justified, (Prov 20:22),(Mat 5:39-40), (Luke 6:29) tells us how we r to b peaceful,organized n hw 2 b consistent wit his will for us.
Pii) we pray not 2 change God,but 2 bring 2 pass thru us, God's will,so, the lord's prayer brings us in2 consistency wit his WORD.
Piii) yes. He cannot b in perpetual sin( 2 Cor 5:20-21), (1 John 1:7:9),all kinds of sins includin serial are ignored. (1 John 2:1-2),he defends us, pleadin our case n he also assumes liability. Wen we accept Christ,we r brought unda his cover n shielded by 'ransomed', (Isaiah 53:4-5). We r not judged by our sins rather by our work, (Rev 20:12)
Piv) (1 Cor 14:33) ''God is not the author of confussion but of peace,as in all churches of the saints''.

Reyginus: It's like I have to make the question clear.
My question is this, why is it a sin when we refuse to forgive an offender who is yet to ask for forgiveness, but not a sin when God forgives not a sinner until he asks for forgiveness?

1a. God is the absolute moral being. He is Holy. He is Just. He is Love.
1b. The wages of sin is death.

In the light of Holiness and Justice:

2a. God wronged no one; therefore owes no one.
2b. Man wronged God; therefore owes God.
2c. Man owes God a bigger debt that he can ever owe another man he has wronged
2d. When a man wrongs another man; he wrongs God too; therefore owes God and the victim.
2e. The victim is a man - he owes God - he is guilty too; therefore he does not have a moral high ground before God.

3a. Jesus is the only real victim; He wrong no one but was murdered.
3b. While man is yet a sinner, Jesus paid the ultimate price to cancel his debt.
3c. Jesus is God; God was in Christ reconciling man unto himself;
3d. God was the victim; the victim paid the ransome to God- to set man free. God is Love
3e. God is the saviour of man;

4a. Man is not deserving,did not and cannot earn salvation.
4b. Salvation is a gift(3b,3c,3d,3e).
4c. If man rejects the gift, he already stand condemned(1b,2a,2b).
4d. If man accept the gift, then man has a moral obligation to God to forgive his unrepentant offender(1b,2a,2b,2c,2d,2e,3a,3b,3c,3d,3e,4a,4b).

5a. God is not bound by any or thesame moral obligation to forgive an unrepentant offender(2a,2b); yet(3b,3c).

Bottom line:
-------------------
1. Your proposition is based on a false idea of moral equivalence; God and man are not on the same moral pedestal(2a,2b,2c).

2. Anyone who cannot forgive an unrepentant offender does not understand the dept of what Christ did for him(3a -> 4b)

3. You can only hold God accountable based on His promises. Not what you think you're entitled to.

ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN(I John 5:17a)
He or She that commits sin is of the devil, I John 3:8 (I John 3:. If you are into lying, cheating, bitterness, keeping malice, pride, manifesting anger, quarreling, unforgiveness, hatred, envy, contention, strife, bitterness, cursing,speaking evil of others, taking or giving bribe, selfishness, deception, kidnapping, smuggling, falsification of documents, swearing, extortion and other sinful character dispositions, you must repent.

Such evil and wicked character will hinder the manifestation of God’s abundant blessings upon your life. If you are into masturbation, fornication, adultery, prostitution (private or public), patronizing prostitutes, abortion, lesbianism, homosexualism, bestiality,watching pornography (I Corinthians 6:9-10), immoral thoughts or any form of immorality, you need to repent.
Visit this church, 'THE LORD'S CHOSEN CHARIMATIC REVIVAL MOVEMENT'.
I recommend chosentv.org, thelordschosenworld.

Whatever be the area of your sin, you must repent and make amends. Are you into idolatry? Are you into cultism, whether open or secret cult? Do you practice witchcraft or Yoga? Do you smoke cigarette or cannabis? Do you sell them or offer them to people? Do you smoke or sniff hard drugs such as cocaine, heroin, captain black, hashish or other banned drugs or snuff? Are you lusting - lusting after men or women, covetous, alcohol drinking? You must repent and give your life to Jesus Christ.

Are you into marry and divorce? Then you are sinner. Are you married to more than one person? Repent!! Marriage is between a man and a woman. Marriage is for better and for worse until death separates (Matthew 19:3-6). ‘Wherefore they are no more two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man put asunder (separate)’. Cheating on your wife or husband is sin. Proverbs 28: 13 says, ‘‘He that covers his sins shall not prosper...You must repent of them, confess and forsake them.
Are you into worldliness? Don’t you know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? So, you must stop bleaching your body or painting your mouth, eyes, hands and legs or fixing attachments, weave-on, earrings (Genesis 35:2-4), bangles, chains and frying or perming your hair. Tattooing your body is satanic. Are you one of those that put on nude dresses, short skirts, transparent dresses to seduce men or women (A seducer is a Sinner)

Perhaps you wear trousers as a woman? (Read Deuteronomy 22:5), that is an abomination (Revelation 21:8, 27). Therefore, make up your mind, repent and give your life to Jesus Christ.Are you spoilt? Jeremiah 4:30 says, ‘‘And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee. They will seek thy life’’

A Christian is not a sinner and a sinner is not a Christian(I John 3:9).If you must be a blessed child of God,you must repent of your sins and give your life to Jesus Christ.If you believe Jesus Christ today,righteousness of God will come into your life and abundant life will be your portion.If you neglect this call to repentance and salvation,you will not escape hell fire(Hebrews 2:3).In Luke 13:3, Jesus said, ‘I tell you,Nay:but except ye repent,ye shall all likewise perish’.Read Matthew 6:33

If you have decided now to give your life to Jesus Christ and to forsake your sinful lifestyle, you need to pray this prayer:
Almighty God, I come unto you in the name of Jesus. Father I confess that I am a sinner. All my sins I confess to you.
I am very sorry for all my sins (mention those you can remember). Lord I promise you that from today I will never continue in them anymore. I believe that Jesus Christ died and rose again on the third day for my justification.

Almighty God, use the blood of Jesus to wash my sins away. Lord Jesus, come into my heart, be my Lord and personal Savior. I surrender my life to you. Cancel my name from the book of death and write it in the book of life. Give me power to sin no more. In Jesus name I pray. Amen!!
'THE LORD'S CHOSEN CHARIMATIC REVIVAL MOVEMENT'.
Watch chosentv.org, thelordschosenworld, and chosennews online.
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Reyginus: That is a nice one. In the same sense, can you also say that we cannot really talk about forgiving those who wronged us, so long they are not willing to accept the forgiveness?

u havent rily gotten it, forgivenesss of sins for all mankind is dia we only get our share of it wen we run to him, likewise u should forgive all those who wrong u, bt they will nt know of it until they have asked u or witness ur action towards them wen u hv d chance to repay; cos that is d test of forgiveness, paying evil wit good wen u hv d chance to pay back wit evil. Jst as God does nt withdraw good things frm us cos we hv sinned; d fact though is dt acc to d laws of d universe, every action has effects n u must get d effect of ur action wether good or bad, n wether u've been forgiven by both God n d person u offended.

plaetton:

Though you are closer to the truth, I still disagree with you.
The bible itself tells us that the heart of man is very tricky and wicked.

Forgivness, if at all possible from god, would require complete penance(complete payback in this context) as a pre-requisite, otherwise it would make absolutely no sense.
Also, was it not Jesus that said,

Galatians 6:7 "Do not be deceived :GOD IS NOT MOCKED, for whatever a man sows, so shall he also reap" ?
Bingo!
Here , we see Jesus invoking the law of karma.

The idea of Forgiveness from god would contradict these very words from Jesus.

Although Jesus preached personal forgiveness, I do not remember him promising anyone of God's forgiveness.
In the lord's prayer, Jesus asked for a general blanket of forgiveness, he did not, I repeat, he did not assure or guarantee it.

Again, I am holding a bible here, and I am challenging anyone to show where in the bible that Yahweh actually forgave anyone without first exacting his punishment or system of measured justice.

Since yahweh is an unchanging god, according you guys, I am assuming that he has not repented from his old ways.

So, to me, christians are deceiving themselves and mocking their god when they delude themselves that they, by virtue of their faith , are not going to be held responsible for every transgression of their lives.

no my dear it wasnt Christ that said it, its a man lyk u n me either a disciple or a prophet. Christ only said sm things in d bible in d gospels n they re usually highlighted in red. My advice to u is nxt tym u read d bible rd it wit a view nt to fynd arguments to criticize n demonize God n d church bt wit a view to know d truth, pray to whatever u blieve in n if none, ur innermost spirit, cos man is a miniGod to help u out in ur search for d truth.

First and most importantly, I am a christain.
There is this problem I encountered while fliping through some pages with my mind.

That is, can we be justified when we chose not to forgive someone who continously wrong us but is yet to ask for forgiveness? (No, We cannot - "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." - Matt 6:14-15)

If yes, wouldn't that weaken our lord's prayer? (Again No, "The Lord's prayer" is never weakened, only our argument or prayer for HIS forgiveness when we retain malice)

If no, can God forgive a serial sinner who is without remorse? (GOD can save and forgive anyone... then he/she will experience true remorse - Romans 2:4)

If yes, wouldn't it show a mark of contradiction on the person of God? ("As for GOD, His way is perfect..."

I need answers, please.

SNCOQ3:

1a. God is the absolute moral being. He is Holy. He is Just. He is Love.
1b. The wages of sin is death.

In the light of Holiness and Justice:

2a. God wronged no one; therefore owes no one.
2b. Man wronged God; therefore owes God.
2c. Man owes God a bigger debt that he can ever owe another man he has wronged
2d. When a man wrongs another man; he wrongs God too; therefore owes God and the victim.
2e. The victim is a man - he owes God - he is guilty too; therefore he does not have a moral high ground before God.

3a. Jesus is the only real victim; He wrong no one but was murdered.
3b. While man is yet a sinner, Jesus paid the ultimate price to cancel his debt.
3c. Jesus is God; God was in Christ reconciling man unto himself;
3d. God was the victim; the victim paid the ransome to God- to set man free. God is Love
3e. God is the saviour of man;

4a. Man is not deserving,did not and cannot earn salvation.
4b. Salvation is a gift(3b,3c,3d,3e).
4c. If man rejects the gift, he already stand condemned(1b,2a,2b).
4d. If man accept the gift, then man has a moral obligation to God to forgive his unrepentant offender(1b,2a,2b,2c,2d,2e,3a,3b,3c,3d,3e,4a,4b).

5a. God is not bound by any or thesame moral obligation to forgive an unrepentant offender(2a,2b); yet(3b,3c).

Bottom line:
-------------------
1. Your proposition is based on a false idea of moral equivalence; God and man are not on the same moral pedestal(2a,2b,2c).

2. Anyone who cannot forgive an unrepentant offender does not understand the dept of what Christ did for him(3a -> 4b)

3. You can only hold God accountable based on His promises. Not what you think you're entitled to.

You really understand what the problem is, like few people here.
This solves the problem for me. I knew the problem lies in my understanding of forgiveness in the face of God and man. Thank you very much, guys. The above answers it for me.[code][/code]

Reyginus: First and most importantly, I am a christain.
There is this problem I encountered while fliping through some pages with my mind.
That is, can we be justified when we chose not to forgive someone who continously wrong us but is yet to ask for forgiveness?
If yes, wouldn't that weaken our lord's prayer?
If no, can God forgive a serial sinner who is without remorse?
If yes, wouldn't it show a mark of contradiction on the person of God?
I need answers, please.

i think that we should always forgive but this does not stop us from using our brain. if someone is continually doing something wrong - some sort of action needs to be taken (you must act righteously though but you must act against is nonetheless). e.g. if someone keeps insulting you - rebuke them and keep away from them - cut them out of your life if you have to even if they 'apologise' again (that is if they have been always apologising and going back to doing the same thing)

Reyginus: You really understand what the problem is, like few people here.
This solves the problem for me. I knew the problem lies in my understanding of forgiveness in the face of God and man. Thank you very much, guys. The above answers it for me.[code][/code]

The Lord bless you too: May His Holy Spirit continue to guide us.

Reyginus: Thank you very much. The question now is, why are we expected to forgive even those who show no remorse when God will not do the same?

When Jesus was on the cross, he prayed "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

This was without anyone showing remorse, so thats the example we are to follow.

Let God be the judge, and in the meantime, you can remove yourself from the coming judgement when you free yourself through forgiveness.

Forgive is not the same thing as forget however.

Lakayanah: Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us does not mean you go back to that person and be the person's best friend when you know that you cannot change them . Give him/her space does not make the both of you enemies. .

Gbam.

However, in some instances, you may give people space, forgive them, go the whole hog, but they still chase after you.

tpia@:


When Jesus was on the cross, he prayed "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

This was without anyone showing remorse, so thats the example we are to follow.

Let God be the judge, and in the meantime, you can remove yourself from the coming judgement when you free yourself through forgiveness.

Forgive is not the same thing as forget however.

I thought the question has already been answered.

Reyginus: Thank you very much. The question now is, why are we expected to forgive even those who show no remorse when God will not do the same?

You forget that God opens the heart before a sinner can repent and turn to Him. It is after this act of repentance that one can now ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness (genuine repentance) is something that springs from a regenerated heart.

So, in a sense, we forgive cos we have been forgiven first. The kind of forgiveness (pardon) we receive in Christ is not on the same level as the one a man can offer.

We have been admonished to forbear with one another and also to be tolerant. But forgiveness is granted when the guilty party is remorseful and repantant.

Tgirl4real:

You forget that God opens the heart before a sinner can repent and turn to Him. It is after this act of repentance that one can now ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness (genuine repentance) is something that springs from a regenerated heart.

So, in a sense, we forgive cos we have been forgiven first. The kind of forgiveness (pardon) we receive in Christ is not on the same level as the one a man can offer.

We have been admonished to forbear with one another and also to be tolerant. But forgiveness is granted when the guilty party is remorseful and repantant.

Thank you very much. I understand the subject very clear now.

Reyginus: Thank you very much. I understand the subject very clear now.

Yea, I had already posted before seeing one excellent post like that.

Tgirl4real:

Yea, I had already posted before seeing one excellent post like that.

Yeah. Hope you had a nice day?

Reyginus: Yeah. Hope you had a nice day?

Yes, I did. Esp. cos it's d Lord's day. Had a wonderful fellowship with the brethren.

How was your day?

Tgirl4real:

Yes, I did. Esp. cos it's d Lord's day. Had a wonderful fellowship with the brethren.

How was your day?

Good for you. Mine was okay.