I need a little help here. There seems to be a different calculation of the lineage in Luke 3 and Matthew 1 for Joseph the husband of Mary.


In Matthew the Father of Joseph was Jacob while in Luke the Father of Joseph was Heli.


If you read both accounts of Joseph's ancestry, you see a big problem, how could Joseph have come from 2 different sources ?


Matthew starts from backwards to trace the genealogy for Joseph.

In Matthew 1 :

6 and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,
Abihud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Elihud,
15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah




Luke starts from forward to backwards .

in Luke 3 :


Joseph,

the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,

the son of Levi, the son of Melki,

the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,

25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,

the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,

the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath,

the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,

the son of Josek, the son of Joda,

27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,

the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,

the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melki,

the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,

the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,

29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,

the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,

the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon,

the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,

the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,

31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna,

the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,

the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse,



Can we discuss this amicably and understand why we have this small issue.


Thanks.

I am waiting to see how u guys are going to spin this one. It'll be an impressive accomplishment if u do.

No idea. Awaiting other responses

Some bible commentators, assume the Luke geneology was thru Mary's lineage up to heli joseph's father inlaw. Since females were not quoted in geneologies, Joseph's name was substituted in the geneology.

Akanniade: Some bible commentators, assume the Luke geneology was thru Mary's lineage up to heli joseph's father inlaw. Since females were not quoted in geneologies, Joseph's name was substituted in the geneology.

Hmm, not really, Joseph's ancestry was clearly traced in this instance or we could ,make the same deduction from Matthew 1. Besides , ancestry came from the seed of David and had to come from his Male offspring starting with Solomon.

Try again.

But thanks for your input.

Kino big deal? Simple matter like this na eim a whole frosbby dey go start thread for? Chei, frosbel don fall my hand and head join .

#cover face and run out of thread but to return if no one has explanation#

Goshen360: Kino big deal? Simple matter like this na eim a whole frosbby dey go start thread for? Chei, frosbel don fall my hand and head join .

#cover face and run out of thread but to return if no one has explanation#

Teach me Bro, I am not an expert !

I have seen a few of us peep in and take off

frosbel:

Teach me Bro, I am not an expert !

I have seen a few of us peep in and take off

No bro. You need send APOSTOLIC TITHE on this one before I unveil it or make you wait for Bidam to come unveil. Afterall, Bidam being collecting tithe (even though he's not from the tribe of Levi). So make him come do the work for all the tithes he being don dey collect.

Hello guys, I am still expecting your response on this thread

https://www.nairaland.com/1365427/invitation-theological-discuss-one-corinthians#16905012

DrummaBoy: Hello guys, I am still expecting your response on this thread

https://www.nairaland.com/1365427/invitation-theological-discuss-one-corinthians#16905012

Make I go see!

Goshen360:

No bro. You need send APOSTOLIC TITHE on this one before I unveil it or make you wait for Bidam to come unveil. Afterall, Bidam being collecting tithe (even though he's not from the tribe of Levi). So make him come do the work for all the tithes he being don dey collect.

Okay , permission to contribute later granted , on the condition that Bidam will post his own contribution in less than 12 hours.

The question you raised is a theological one and there is no really short answer to it, I will try and make it as short as possible

Christ is revealed as the seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15), hence Christ connection to David is through her mother and not Joseph (who was his legal father)

You will note also it was Nathan that was recorded as the son of David in Luke and not Solomon as recorded in Mathew.

Why is this
Mathew was the genealogy of Jesus from Joseph (who was his legal father) whereas Luke was the genealogy of Jesus from Mary (his mother). And why Luke mentioned Joseph instead of Mary is in line with Jewish tradition, women are not mentioned in genealogy. Jesus as a descendant of David and
the seed of the woman has prophesied in Genesis.

Ezra 2:61
61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:

Nehemiah 7:63
63 And of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai, which took one of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite to wife, and was called after their name.

The women mentioned in Mathew are all non jewish, hence why their names were mentioned in connection to Christ.

For Example, you will not hear son of sarah, son of Rebecca etc. The women are called and recorded with the name of husbands in Jewish tradition. When Jesus fed people with bread, only 5000 men was recorded and nothing was mention of the women.

This issue is better understood if you read the account from the greek bible.

When infallible proofs abound in scriptures concerning the preexistence of Christ you now ran away to open this thread abi? I am not a historian.I leave that to you to make the research,you re quite good at it.

frosbel: I need a little help here. There seems to be a different calculation of the lineage in Luke 3 and Matthew 1 for Joseph the husband of Mary.


In Matthew the Father of Joseph was Jacob while in Luke the Father of Joseph was Heli.


If you read both accounts of Joseph's ancestry, you see a big problem, how could Joseph have come from 2 different sources ?


Matthew starts from backwards to trace the genealogy for Joseph.

In Matthew 1 :

6 and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,
Abihud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Elihud,
15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah




Luke starts from forward to backwards .

in Luke 3 :


Joseph,

the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,

the son of Levi, the son of Melki,

the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,

25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,

the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,

the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath,

the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,

the son of Josek, the son of Joda,

27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,

the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,

the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melki,

the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,

the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,

29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,

the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,

the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon,

the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,

the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,

31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna,

the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,

the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse,



Can we discuss this amicably and understand why we have this small issue.


Thanks.

Mathew was tracing the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph to Devid, while in luke it is through Mary to David.

The Jews dont recognised the women in paternity issue of royalty, so, where women are involve, they use the father or the husband.

Very rear women are used, unless on exceptional cases.

Peace

Bidam, don't run away o. I can see you peeping o. I even see your face.

frosbel:

Hmm, not really, Joseph's ancestry was clearly traced in this instance or we could ,make the same deduction from Matthew 1. Besides , ancestry Nathan rom the seed of David and had to come from his Male offspring starting with Solomon.

Try again.

But thanks for your input.

You are saying the same thing. Mary and Joseph were both descendants of David. Joseph was a descendant of David via Solomon. Mary was a descendant of David via Nathan (nathan was David's son too). Jewish tradition required Joseph's name be substituted for Mary in luke's genealogy.
Why are you seeking a complex solution?

Akanniade:
You are saying the same thing. Mary and Joseph were both descendants of David. Joseph was a descendant of David via Solomon. Mary was a descendant of David via Nathan (nathan was David's son too). Jewish tradition required Joseph's name be substituted for Mary in luke's genealogy.
Why are you seeking a complex solution?

He was probably not looking for any solution but a fault

superior1:

Christ is revealed as the seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15), hence Christ connection to David is through her mother and not Joseph (who was his legal father)

It is the MAN that plants the seed in the WOMAN, so this is partially correct , however none of the gospel accounts suggests anything about Mary's lineage.

You will note also it was Nathan that was recorded as the son of David in Luke and not Solomon as recorded in Mathew.

Why is this
Mathew was the genealogy of Jesus from Joseph (who was his legal father) whereas Luke was the genealogy of Jesus from Mary (his mother). And why Luke mentioned Joseph instead of Mary is in line with Jewish tradition, women are not mentioned in genealogy. Jesus as a descendant of David and
the seed of the woman has prophesied in Genesis.

I don't quite agree , though I am very liable to change my mind with further evidence, it is clear that the lineage was traced through Joseph, we cannot assume into scripture our own notions.

Ezra 2:61
61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:

Nehemiah 7:63
63 And of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai, which took one of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite to wife, and was called after their name.

The women mentioned in Mathew are all non jewish, hence why their names were mentioned in connection to Christ.

Matthew's account seems to be the most accurate with one small contradiction , Jehoiakim was cursed to be childless , so this lineage is broken right here :

"As I live," says YHVH, "though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, were the signet ring on My right hand, yet I would pluck you off; and I will give you into the hand of those who seek your life, and into the hand of those whose face you fear - the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and the hand of the Chaldeans. .........., Hear the word of YHVH! Thus says YHVH: 'Write this man down as childless, A man who shall not prosper in his days; For none of his descendants shall prosper, Sitting on the throne of David, And ruling anymore in Judah.' "
Jeremiah 22:24 - 29

For Example, you will not hear son of sarah, son of Rebecca etc. The women are called and recorded with the name of husbands in Jewish tradition. When Jesus fed people with bread, only 5000 men was recorded and nothing was mention of the women.

Yes, but this is standard practise even in the cultures of today, a child always descends from the seed of a MAN planted in a WOMAN.

Bidam: When infallible proofs abound in scriptures concerning the preexistence of Christ you now ran away to open this thread abi? I am not a historian.I leave that to you to make the research,you re quite good at it.

Sorry Pal, I forgot you specialise in the history of the Tithe ,and it's application to the modern age.

Goshen360: Bidam, don't run away o. I can see you peeping o. I even see your face.

frosbel:

Sorry Pal, I forgot you specialise in the history of the Tithe ,and it's application to the modern age.

Have you now followed the muslim folks in arguing about this?It doesn't change anything abeg.

Bidam: Have you now followed the muslim folks in arguing about this?It doesn't change anything abeg.

Please answer the question, I am a rock solid follower of the Messiah and Master Jesus, don't even align me with ISLAM.

Besides that was a cheap shot to escape the question, just say I don't know.

frosbel:

It is the MAN that plants the seed in the WOMAN, so this is partially correct , however none of the gospel accounts suggests anything about Mary's lineage.




I don't quite agree , though I am very liable to change my mind with further evidence, it is clear that the lineage was traced through Joseph, we cannot assume into scripture our own notions.







Matthew's account seems to be the most accurate with one small contradiction , Jehoiakim was cursed to be childless , so this lineage is broken right here :

"As I live," says YHVH, "though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, were the signet ring on My right hand, yet I would pluck you off; and I will give you into the hand of those who seek your life, and into the hand of those whose face you fear - the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and the hand of the Chaldeans. .........., Hear the word of YHVH! Thus says YHVH: 'Write this man down as childless, A man who shall not prosper in his days; For none of his descendants shall prosper, Sitting on the throne of David, And ruling anymore in Judah.' "
Jeremiah 22:24 - 29




Yes, but this is standard practise even in the cultures of today, a child always descends from the seed of a MAN planted in a WOMAN.

In this case,it is not a man seed but seed of the woman, unless you have any argument against virgin birth of Christ (I won't want to get so much into this)

The Jehoiakim curse is another reason why Jesus kingship couldn't have been established through Joseph's genealogy. Mattew is trying to tell us why it won't have been possible through Joseph (even if he were to be is natural father).

I gave you Ezra 2:61 (did you take your time to read it), where a man's name was recorded with the name of his wife (since the woman's name can't be mentioned in genealogy), so Joseph's genealogy won't be the first, it is a standard Jewish tradition.

The fact is there and of course, you are entitled to what you chose to believe.

superior1:


In this it is not a man seed but seed of the women, unless if you have any argument against virgin birth of Christ (I won't want to get so much into this)

The Jehoiakim curse is another reason why Jesus kingship couldn't have been established through Joseph's genealogy. Mattew is trying to tell us why it won't have been possible through Joseph (even if he were to be is natural father).

I gave you Ezra 2:61 (did you take your time to read it), where a man's name was recorded with the name of his wife (since the woman's name can't be mentioned in genealogy)

The fact is there and of course, you are entitled to what you chose to believe.

Thanks , I am asking out of honesty and not to set a trap.

My belief in Jesus cannot be shaken due to my miraculous salvation experience , so take this as me simply coming across a challenge and not being able to respond logically , posting it here for all of us to discuss.

Thanks again.

frosbel:

Thanks , I am asking out of honesty and not to set a trap.

My belief in Jesus cannot be shaken due to my miraculous salvation experience , so take this as me simply coming across a challenge and not being able to respond logically , posting it here for all of us to discuss.

Thanks again.

Ok then, you are welcome

Bidam: When infallible proofs abound in scriptures concerning the preexistence of Christ you now ran away to open this thread abi? I am not a historian.I leave that to you to make the research,you re quite good at it.

Bidam, no make me vex o. This is not history matter o, na bible study matter be this one naw. You don too collect tithe for you not to know this little matter joor. O ya, show yourself joor, explain this 'token' matter for the brethrens.

frosbel:

Sorry Pal, I forgot you specialise in the history of the Tithe ,and it's application to the modern age.

Bidam, you see your life?

Bidam:

Yes, I see your face...efen your head. E be like say na gorimapa you get o. # and rolling on the floor#

"Most people in this world do not realize the importance of understanding and believing exactly what YEHOVAH God says about the Messiah's beginning. To believe in a different kind of savior than the one YEHOVAH chose, is just as detrimental to our salvation as believing in a savior OTHER than Yeshua the Messiah! The fact is, Yeshua's beginning was the same "beginning" all twelve of his disciples experienced -- begotten by a human father and conceived by a human mother!

One of the most commonly used verses for the defense of the Marilolaters' virgin-birth belief is Luke 3:23. They make the claim that this verse refers to Joseph's genealogy through another line, which is a totally incorrect self-interpretation, a deliberate distortion, or they are ignorant of what the scriptures say about the Messiah's father, Joseph. We need to first review who Yeshua the Messiah really is -- not in relation to his ministry but in regard to his ancestry."
SOURCE: http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/773295646/virgin-birth

Goshen360:

Bidam, no make me vex o. This is not history matter o, na bible study matter be this one naw. You don too collect tithe for you not to know this little matter joor. O ya, show yourself joor, explain this 'token' matter for the brethrens.

Ok,enof of your silly little pranks,it is also clear that you don't have anything to say here.Have you finished with frosbel on the deity of Christ? If you haven't then you re doing a great injustice to yourself and to God.

Bidam: Ok,enof of your silly little pranks,it is also clear that you don't have anything to say here.Have you finished with frosbel on the deity of Christ? If you haven't then you re doing a great injustice to yourself and to God.

Sharrap Prophet Bidam, PhD. Just talk say you no know this little thing and make I school you but I must collect that tithe from you too because you don dey collect tithe too long from people and you no efen know thing. Wetin you come dey collect tithe for naw? .

Anyway, these things are simple. I will use this thread to liberate our brother Frosbel on the deity of Christ and begin to parallel it to Joseph genealogy he requested in this thread. I will do that when I come online next, later in the day today because the 12 hours wey Frosbel give you go don pass by then. Honestly, it's very simple.

Goshen360:

Sharrap Prophet Bidam, PhD. Just talk say you no know this little thing and make I school you but I must collect that tithe from you too because you don dey collect tithe too long from people and you no efen know thing. Wetin you come dey collect tithe for naw? .

Are you that sensitive to an honest post? The truth hurts huh! by the way am a brother not a phd holder.No kill me before my time abeg,and i told you countless time that i don't collect tithes,so stop this names calling abeg!!!

Anyway, these things are simple. I will use this thread to liberate our brother Frosbel on the deity of Christ and begin to parallel it to Joseph genealogy he requested in this thread. I will do that when I come online next, later in the day today because the 12 hours wey Frosbel give you go don pass by then. Honestly, it's very simple.

You see your problem?You always parade yourself to know it all which shows you re unteachable,a sure mark of a pharisee that you accuse others of."And art confident..."Confidence is a key for a Pharisee. You must be confident in yourself that you always know the answer for everything. You are an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, you hold the key to knowledge and truth.•But in verse 21, Paul asks the question to the Pharisee,"Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself?" .

frosbel:

It is the MAN that plants the seed in the WOMAN, so this is partially correct , however none of the gospel accounts suggests anything about Mary's lineage.




I don't quite agree , though I am very liable to change my mind with further evidence, it is clear that the lineage was traced through Joseph, we cannot assume into scripture our own notions.







Matthew's account seems to be the most accurate with one small contradiction , Jehoiakim was cursed to be childless , so this lineage is broken right here :

"As I live," says YHVH, "though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, were the signet ring on My right hand, yet I would pluck you off; and I will give you into the hand of those who seek your life, and into the hand of those whose face you fear - the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and the hand of the Chaldeans. .........., Hear the word of YHVH! Thus says YHVH: 'Write this man down as childless, A man who shall not prosper in his days; For none of his descendants shall prosper, Sitting on the throne of David, And ruling anymore in Judah.' "
Jeremiah 22:24 - 29




Yes, but this is standard practise even in the cultures of today, a child always descends from the seed of a MAN planted in a WOMAN.

Pls this is just my observation.
I don't think it's possible for a childless man to also have descendant(s).
Perhaps the man in question actually had children but God laid a curse on him and for that reason non of his descendants shall sit on the throne of David. If therefore non of his descendants sit on throne of David, its as good as saying he is childless,hence the instruction "write him down as childless"