Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? - Religion - Nairaland
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| Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by huxley(m): 6:37pm On May 24, 2008 |
One of the commandments in the Old Testament is the following; You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour. This commandment is usually interpreted as an injunction against lying. While this is all very well and good, are there any exceptions, where telling a lie might be the right thing to do? Consider the following scenario; In the early 1940s, a local German citizen is hiding some Jewish citizens in his home to protect them from the murderous Nazi soldiers. The Nazi soldiers visit the good German's home and inquire as to whether there are Jews in his house. Should he tell a lie, thus saving the Jews from certain death? Or should he be truthful about the fact that he is harbouring the Jewish citizens? Some years ago, while visiting friends and family in Maryland, USA, my "lack of belief" in the Judeo-Christian god happened to be mentioned in conversation. Upon learning that I do not hold to the Christian belief, the local evangelist took it upon herself to try and convert me. We spent all evening discussing several aspect of the Christian belief system. Then I chanced to mention this commandment, knowing that the majority of the people in attendance were immigrants from Western Africa. I asked the following question; As Christains, how many of you were/are 100 percent truthful with your visa applications to stay or to enter into the USA? A deafening silence fell upon the room. Then, I knew I had touched a sore point. There were a few glances exchanged by my interlocutors, as if to say "how dare he ask such a question?". I basically took this to mean that the conversation was over. And indeed it was. All my interlocutors turned their backs and walked away, to resume partying with the other guests. Ironically, this reminded me of the story in the bible of the woman caught in adultery. When Jesus intervenes by asking if there was any amongst the crowd who was without sin, they all shame-facedly turned their backs and walked away. I sometimes wonder what the response of the above questions would be if asked in one of the African Christian church congregations in London, Manchester, New York, Maryland, Frankfort, Paris etc. Would I get an honest answer? Or would the majority of the congregation desert the questioner? The crucial question is whether this commandment is meant as an absolute injunction against telling lies. Or are there situation were it be actually be morally right to tell a lie? BTW, who is your neighbour? Is it OK to bear false witness against someone who is not "your neighbour"? |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 6:51pm On May 24, 2008 |
@huxley, huxley: What would be your own answer? It is not enough to seek to pose questions and hold aloof from the implications of your own assumptions. huxley: My answer would be 'no - it is not OK to bear false witness against someone who is not your neighbour'. To the question as to who is our neighbour, I take the Biblical view - especially as offered in the New Testament. What is your own definition of a neighbour - who is your neighbour, huxley? |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by olabowale(m): 7:03pm On May 24, 2008 |
This story above reminds me of the hadith where there are instances lying are acceptable. The three mentioned are a man telling an ugly spouse that she is very pretty. We all know that a husband who tells his wife that she is as ugly as a bush baby can expect many a night of frozen back! The second is a friend who is bringing duelling friend to a peaceful resolution by lying to encourage that reunion. You can imagine having tow close friends becoming enemies, while you are still their friend. How well will you enjoy your outing, where the two of them are there, each needing your 100% attention? The last one is when your support your troop by your propagandas. You might actually avert even a drop of blood, because the enemy may capitulate because of fear of being defeated and suffering so much casualities. Huxley, this is the only thread that I think you have ever been reasonable. I see the Chindler's list in your Jews/Nazis storyline, above. To lie is very appropriate in this case. The reason is that so many lives are saved. And there is trememdous benefit in saving lives. I still harbor hope for you, Huxley. Someday, God will switch your heart to a believing heart. It is pure except God id not in it, yet. @Syrup: Lying against Jesus, is a false witnessing. The consequences are dire. Knowing that Jesus was a man, a prophet, a messiah to the children of Israel, alone, never started a religion and never asked anyone to start one, etc, are bearing false witnessing against him.To deitify him is false witnessing. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 7:13pm On May 24, 2008 |
@Olabowale, olabowale: Thank you for your comments - I appreciate them, and agree that lying against Jesus is false witnessing. However, what you may not have carefully considered is that DENYING what Jesus Christ said in order to keep your religion is even far worse. Are you on course?  Let me give you an example: Jesus Christ clearly referred to Himself as the Son of God (please see John 9:35-37 and 10:36). Now Olabowale, where do you stand in those statement - do you stand to DENY those statements? If you do, then the consequences are dire indeed. Please carefully consider that DENIALS are even worse than accusations. Bless you. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by olabowale(m): 7:32pm On May 24, 2008 |
@Syrup: Please consider that John 9; 35 to 37, and John 10; 36 can never be proven 100% without the usual ambiquity of the blind faith to be words coming from Jesus. Further, if there is any verse that is contrary to this statement, above, it even raises more cloud to any possible accuracy of it. How can son be father and ghost all in one shot? Then some of you even present the possibility that he, Jesus was Melchezdek, all the while before, during and after his time on earth! You are shrouding this mystery in heavy clothing. More like crush velvet and tampoline than shear material. The denial of through is coming from you who witnessed falsehood agaianst an innocent man. Sometimes ago a nairalander talked about jesus talking to Moses and Elijah. I just could not but ask myself how he knew that these people were Moses and Elijah? Was Jesus telling them that these people were who the christians say they were? Do you not wonder that God Almighty will not be raising dead prophets up to show ordinary men? Muh.amm.ad who saw all of them in his Isra wa Miraj did not tell any m.isl.im that these people were ever raised up for the viewing of any one, except in the company of prophets: and he m.uh.am.m.ad was the last of them. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by PastorAIO: 7:49pm On May 24, 2008 |
Before this becomes another christian vs. great one's argument I want to bring attention to the actually phrase 'bearing witness'. To witness something is to experience it. To claim something that you have not witnessed is to bear false witness. To claim that angel jibril dictated the qu'ran when you did not witness it is bearing false witness. However to say it is merely your beleif would not be. This applies to those christians to who have merely an intellectual understanding of biblical doctrine. Christ is an experience and if you do not have that experience but speak of it then you are bearing false witness. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 8:10pm On May 24, 2008 |
@Olabowale, olabowale: Which is the same thing that can be attributed to the words of Muh.hammad - every single line he spoke about knowing Jesus Christ are mere falatious statements by that same rule. You cannot pick and choose what to believe and what to deny by calculation and design. I believe in the statement that are recorded in those verses - and if those statements pose serious problems for you, it is not my call. "Blind faith" is something which has become a glib cliche to many these days that it only makes me wonder if those who use that ducker have anything tangible to say. If one holds such fallacious theories (a clever tool to willfully deny something you don't like), then my simple query is this: what statement could YOU defend 100% as factual in your own perusals? It is not enough to point accusing fingers simply because you are standing on the other side of the bridge. Look closely, 3 fingers are pointing back at you (a Nigerian proverb I learnt recently). olabowale: Okay. olabowale: This is why you seriously need to clearly drop your assumptions. I can answer and at the same time waste your assumptions. HOW? (a) Jesus never once claimed that He is both the FATHER and the Holy Ghost in one shot. That is sadly a cheap and unfair presumption to make. If you have a verse for that, could you offer sincerely to quote it? (b) in natural human palance, we could say that a "son" could be a "father". My husband is the father of our children, but he is also son to his parents. BUT here is something distinct in our discussion - such analogies do not apply to Jesus (remember I said "human palance?"  (c) but the Son is not something that Christians devised recently - unless Mus.lims want to DENY the Old Testament (which the Qur.an verifies). where do you stand? olabowale: People's views differ on so many things - politics, religion, science, or other worldviews. Not all Musl.ims are agreed about their own beliefs - could I then make a case for your own "tampoline" and heavy hot-air-balloon? I think it is only fair to save your readiness to attack people's views when you can't defend yours. olabowale: That is a funny thing with you. Here is the fact: (a) Jesus clearly said that He is the Son of God (as quoted earlier). (b) syrup agrees and affirms that claim (c) olabowale accuses me of a "DENIAL"? That is laughable. It is Mus.lim themselves who are making the DENIAL - and I don't see how you should be so desperate to assume these false accusations against me. olabowale: Funny thing - I just could ask myself the same questions about how Muh.hammad knew that those he claimed to have spoken to were Moses, Jesus, and others in the Bible? HOW do you defend that kind of thing with your selective reading?  olabowale: What kind of "God" are you talking about? A "god" who cannot raise the dead is actually a "god". Sorry, Olabowale. . . I believe in the resurrection - and I think you claim here is quite unisla,mic. olabowale: Again, HOW can you "prove" that Muh/hammad saw them 100%? |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by olabowale(m): 10:53pm On May 24, 2008 |
@Pastor AIO: I want you to turn everything you said around, Pastor. You will find that your statement is very one sided and terrible and completely shows dishonesty. I will not equate Prophet M.uh.amma.d (as) with the numerous "inspired" writers of the Bible, after the fact. Afterall, the Bible is still going through the ever changing, never stable versions, editions, revisions! This alone kills every argument that you could ever muster! There are evidences that shows the 100% veracity of the Q.u.r'an. I may not have been alive when M.u.hammad was receiving the relelation. Neither were you alive when Jesus was alive in Bethlemen, in his glowing robe! The difference between you and me is that I catually dreamt of M.uh.ammad and the dream, though ws in 2002, was always like last night in my memory. There is an ahadith about seeing M.uh.ammad in a dream. But there is nothing that you can use in the Bible that can equal that. Afterall, Jesus was not even a christian, so your argument is from a wrong and incorrect camp site. syrup
Except that what Jesus said and not what is attributed to him is 100% true. Remember that i said that what is claimed by others, as they put the words in his mouth. That shows that he actully was not the speaker, but somebody who wants his opinion to have weight, there attributed it to him. The same applies to M.uh.ammad. There is an ahadith that indicates that those who attributes things to him, which he did not do or say should take their place in the hellfire.
For your accusation to actually work with me or any m.us.lim, we have to totally deny the existence of Jesus. This we do not do. But at the same time, we are not in the business of exagerations, either. I do defend what is 100% factual and that is very clear in our dialogue, so far. I hope you see it and not be blinded again by blind faith. I can't help the usage as it is appropriate in this case.
The application is totally irrelevant here.
Since your response is a simple "Okay," are we in agreement or this is your own way of shock and jiving. Where should i begin with you here? So if every one of the places where "son" was used in the old Testament is taking into context here, how then the christians actually attach such a greater importance to the "son" used by Jesus? More importantly, don't you see therefore that using 'son' as a terminology does not therefore translate to being "True son" to God, but just a term of endearment, the same as being subject to God, but higher than the other creations, eg the animals? Well, I don't know about you, my father was the son of his parents and the husband of his wives. When he died, all those separate titles died with him. My mother wept because her husband died. I wept because my father died. There was no time that my father died and my mother's husband remained alive! Not even one moment. Get it now?
Am sorry if i offende you. I thought that I am using my belief in the Qu.r'a.n as a base for my disapproval of the saviorship, sonship, godship, etc of Jesus. Remember I have held the belief that he, Jesus was a prophet. So this is my view and the view of all m.us.lims. [Quote] That is a funny thing with you. Here is the fact: (a) Jesus clearly said that He is the Son of God (as quoted earlier). (b) syrup agrees and affirms that claim (c) olabowale accuses me of a "DENIAL"? That is laughable. It is Mus.lim themselves who are making the DENIAL - and I don't see how you should be so desperate to assume these false accusations against me. [/quote] The (a) as you quoted, is the example of putting words in the mouth of Jesus. When this is pointed out to you, you refused to see it! Thats now your BIG Problem. A mistake. [Quote] Funny thing - I just could ask myself the same questions about how Muh.hammad knew that those he claimed to have spoken to were Moses, Jesus, and others in the Bible? HOW do you defend that kind of thing with your selective reading? [/quote] Since we realise that Jesus actual speech is now mared in fallacies, then we have to rely on the authority; The Q.ur'an which is the unaduterated speech of God Almighty alone, and the Sunnah of Mu.hammad (as). Remember i have not used the speech of the companions of Mu.hammad or the generation that followed them. But we see in the Bible what we can consider to be a rough speech of god, then of the prophets, then of the companion of the prophets (in the case of Jesus, his disciples) and the speech and even letters of the generation that came after this (Paul is a good example of this) [Quote ] What kind of "God" are you talking about? A "god" who cannot raise the dead is actually a "god". Sorry, Olabowale. . . I believe in the resurrection - and I think you claim here is quite unisla,mic. [/quote] Read Surah Isra (Children of israel), verse 1 of it. Then read Surah Najm (The Star). Read the tafsir as you go along. It is now easy to find things and information about islam by simply googling it. You can ask the Question on the Google if Muhamma.d saw the prophets; Jesus and Moses, etc as your topic for the search. You will be amazed. But what will you do when you finally find the answer to your inquiries? Are you still going to cling to the fabulous fallacy? My regards to your husband and children. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 11:05pm On May 24, 2008 |
@Olabowale, Thank you for your selective reading. I am quite familiar with the mus.lim idea of the 'Qur.an' says this or that, and that must necessarily be true. That is the weakest idea you can ever try to defend while using the same weak assumption to deny the statements in the Bible. Although I am not a Musl.im and never was one, recent events (including the debates on nairaland) made me read the Qur.an out of mere curiosity. The astonishing thing I found was unmistakably simple - most of the assumptions posted and held by mus.lims like yourself are false and even go so far to contradict what is stated in the Qur''an. If anyone is "attributing" anything to Jesus, we find loads of such things in your hadith - and we can also use your own principle and safely conclude that all we find there are false. By the same stretch, you can apply the same rule to your accusation that the statements in the Bible cannot be trusted - what you need to understand is that the Qur''an clearly says that it came to confirm the Biblical records (not cast doubts on them). I think that particular argument has been well settled in another thread - and I was disappointed that you didn't have anything meaningful to contribute in that thread. One more point: if you keep up this idea of denying the Bible because you cannot trust what it teaches, then by extension you have put yourself in a serious dilemma - because your qu''ran asserts that you must believe in ALL the prophets. There is no way you can claim to believe in ALL the prophets when you cast doubts on what the same prophets have taught! Does the qur''an make a vacant assessment for people like you to excuse yourself for believing in "SOME" of the prophets instead of "ALL"? If at all you believe in ALL, you have no objections to make against ANY of them! To raise such objections immediately renders your assertion of ALL as a tidy bit of meaninglessness. This is why recycling long theories and not addressing real issues is not drawing my interest in your theories. Blessings. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by olabowale(m): 11:58pm On May 24, 2008 |
@Syrup: I could truly sum up your confusion about Q.ur'an injuction in the belief of all the prophets: What each prophet said is true. What other people say that the prophet said may or may not be accurate. Let set up an example for each so that you can get the gist of the agreement of disagreement: Jesus is reported to have said that his lord God is the same Lord God of his audience (Mark 12 verse 29). Now that is true because it goes in the same line of Oneness of God. Jesus was also reported to have said that he is a diety. This is a fllacy because it completely goes against many verses of the Bible that point to the invisibility of God or His not dying Superior state, etc. The Qur'a.n also points to this Invisibility and all the other Superior to man qualities of God. M.usl.ims are required to believe all the Books of the prophets and their words and actions. These were supposed to be in their uncorrupted, and pure states. You do not have that in the Christian Bible today. Since Paul was not Jesus, we can not take his speech to be the speech of Jesus. We can not take his letters to be the letters of Jesus. Yet these and others are what you are alluding to Jesus.
You must be able to post just 1 or just a few, for discussion.
Maybe I did not see why I should contribute. The problem here is that there are people who better knowledge of i.sl.am than me on Nairaland. When they say things that I know and their argument is superior than mine, i simple read and learn from it. Let me help both of us; during the time of Moses, the person who best knew him among his community was his brother, Aaron because he was also a prophet. So during the time of Jesus, John and his father zachariah knew him more than the other rabbis at that time. Why? The father and son were also prophets! Muh.am.m.ad the last of all the prophets knew each and everyone of them before him, very intimately. How? His Teacher was God Almighty. His Tutor was Angel Gabreil.
And no prophet taught anybody that he is god! No prophet taught anyone that he is son of God, as your children are the children of your husband! And the Q.ur'an states all that I have stated.
Syrup, where did i claim that a prophet is not a prophet? Where did I claim that the true words and deeds of a prophet i do not belief? Even what Q.ur'a.n abrogated from the actions of the Prophets, we are still to have the belief of it! Our thought and actions are not compartible, lady. Please get me a revelation that goes so far back to each prophet, in the language that they were revealed. You will see me taking everything in. But of course, such a revelation to the prophets from the children of israel can not be found. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 12:22am On May 25, 2008 |
@Olabowale, You will not interest me by going round in circles and saying the same things that are not helping your case. Which is why I will only summarise your views and ask the same basic questions again. olabowale: I gave a few examples. Are you going to say that what each prophet said in those examples are true? If you cannot hold your ground here, please refrain from postulating what you have no intention of sustaining sincerely. olabowale: I agree. In which case, if I read the direct quotes of those prophets I referenced in the earlier examples, and then you come back later and disavow them, you effectively render your case meaningless again. olabowale: Jesus also said that He is the Son of God - John 9 & 10 as earlier. That does not contradict God's uniqueness, His person, His power and His revelation (especially when the OT prophets prophetically declared that God was kown as FATHER). Does "Son" and "FATHER" correlate with the same teachings of the prophets? If yes, why did Muh.hammad deny that revelation? You see, this is the problem you have. You only wish Muh.hammad's statements to be "true" and his denials to be true at the same time - as long as you can comfortably deny teachings of the Biblical prophets even though the Qur''an asks you as a mus.lim to believe in them! You see your dilemma? olabowale: Again, this does not come close. God's visibility was clearly revealed to MOSES, the seventy elders of Israel, other prophets like ISAIAH, and the patriarchs!! If someone else therefore comes as late as the 5th or 6th century denying these clear revelations, he is the one who stands suspect. Let me explain. The Qur''an is believed to have come through Muh.hammad and no other mus.lim received anything thereafter. Now supposing another Muslim comes along claiming he had a revelation that denies Muh.ammad's words, would you call them naive? To do so is to assume a cultish loyalty that you cannot defend - the very same thing I have been pointing out all this time. So, sum up: (a) the Biblical prophets made categorical claims about God (b) centuries later, "another prophet" comes to DENY those claims (c) without sound reason, you fall for the later prophet and reject the earlier ones (bias) (d) yet, you cannot defend why you rejected those earlier prophets (e) yet again, you still play the mind-games of asserting that you believe in ALL the prophets (f) when scrutinized, it turns out you only made the statement, but do not actually believe it (g) so, your "ALL" translates into "SOME" (h) and yet, the Qur''an reprimands those mus.lims who behave in such manner Olabowale, WHERE do you stand in your dilemma? If you cannot hold it up to light, then stop trying to waste your time seeking to cut corners with it. I'm sorry, but you are still falsifying your premise and playing mind-games. Is it ALL or SOME? You see, if I were you, I would rather take the simple and respectful position that babs787 took. He was intelligent enough to understand that I wasn't seeking a debate of endless theories - afterall, I have asked so many mus.lims the same thing ("ALL" or "SOME" and they have simply stated their points. Unfortunately, you're desperately seeking to solicit as babs787's amanuensis and doing such a poor job standing on clear ground.Anyhow, enjoy. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by Pataki: 12:23am On May 25, 2008 |
Is Syrup back on the forum?  Nice to have you back once again. . . . Where have you been all the while? Regards. @ Pa Olabowale, How you dey too oh? How is babs747? |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 12:25am On May 25, 2008 |
By the way, olabowale: Where did I make such a charge against you precisely in those words? Please quote the line. olabowale: I gave a few - you had problems with them. How can I take you seriously? Please rest your misgivings. . . so far, you seem to be adept at playing these word-games and arriving at nothing fruitful. If something more cogent could be offered, I'd be glad to consider it. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 12:28am On May 25, 2008 |
@Pataki (I'm assuming this is mrpataki?), Well, I've been sneaking in offline to see what's been happening (and trying to settle down to my new life). How are you doing?  |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by Pataki: 12:31am On May 25, 2008 |
Your assumption is very right and true. I am doing well and great. Nice to have you back here and read some erudite postings of you once again. How is the new life settling going? Hope you will not run off very soon again. I have missed you and Shahan and a whole lot more on the forum. Welcome once again. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 12:42am On May 25, 2008 |
@Pataki, So good to know. But I guess I'll shortly be guilty of this one - Pataki: Unfortunately, I would. I just happen to be lazy and bored today - so I thought it would be worthwile to play here. Blessings. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by huxley(m): 1:42am On May 25, 2008 |
Please, can we return to the central theme of these post, rather than do the Christian/Is-la-m dogfight! |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by olabowale(m): 2:07am On May 25, 2008 |
@Syrup: I am laughing, because I thought my evening will not be as gruesome. But I have to give time to Madam Syrup. [Quote] I gave a few examples. Are you going to say that what each prophet said in those examples are true? If you cannot hold your ground here, please refrain from postulating what you have no intention of sustaining sincerely. [/quote] First i did not see your list of examples. But whatever they were, if any disagrees with the Q.ur'an, guess what, it is already rejected. now you know my stand. [Quote] I agree. In which case, if I read the direct quotes of those prophets I referenced in the earlier examples, and then you come back later and disavow them, you effectively render your case meaningless again. [/quote] Pay attention to my statement again: I know what a prophet says. I know what can be claimed that a prophet said, which is not correct. Those statements that are claimed to have been said by a prophet that are contrary to the ways of God from the beginning can never be correct. [Quote] Jesus also said that He is the Son of God - John 9 & 10 as earlier. That does not contradict God's uniqueness, His person, His power and His revelation (especially when the OT prophets prophetically declared that God was kown as FATHER). Does "Son" and "FATHER" correlate with the same teachings of the prophets? If yes, why did Muh.hammad deny that revelation? [/quote] If God has a child, then what sets Him apart from anyone? If God dies, as you had claimed Jesus did as human, what sets Him apart from the rest of us? When you use the word father for God, either from the old or the new testaments, I wonder who God mounted and got pregnant? Yet He created Adam without any parents. He created Eve from Adam, but changed her nature, specifically her gender. Yet you can not see that this God is Mighty that no one can truly be His child, as your children are your husband's child? Which woman represents your position with your husband, when it comes to the fatherhood of god? God Almighty denied this statement by first talking about the humanness of Mary and then Jesus. God said that He commands what he decrees. So the creation of jesus is like the creation of adam. It is only commanded to be, so it became!
I do not wish anything to be apart from its place. The Q.ur'an is true, 100%. What is true about the teaching of what you call the Biblical prophet can never be different from the Q.ur'an. However, there are alot attributed to these Biblical prophets by many. Those statements may be comforting to you, the reality is that they are all false. I see my dilemma. I hope you see yours? [Quote] Again, this does not come close. [/quote] We are at an impasse. What I said was that those statement that are attributed to Jesus are not from him. Therefore, they are completely incorrect. If God was going to reveal Himself to Moses, He would have done it at the burning bush. God is not holding authority which must be believed, only and when you see Him! Even only the prophets saw Angels in their Angelic states. To claim that the elders of Israel along with Moses saw god is very blaspemous, considering that the same elders asked Moses not to let God talk to them directly, because they fear that they will die if they hear His voice!
Now put yourself in the place that you are trying to plant me. You will see that you are the one that has the cultist viewpoint. Exactly the viewpoints of the Jews towards Jesus. But it has been 1400 years and climbing and no one has claimed a new religion. Even here in America, the Mormons and Seventh day Adventist ae look at as false christians. I have not even touched up on the Jehovah witnesses.
You missed the point completely. Please rea Surah Al Maidah, Ambiyyah, Mariam, Isra, Saffa. Or simply google Jesus in the Q.ur.an and read all about him. That should solve your problems.
I wonder where you get all these ideas? Am sure they are not from me. I guess that if i tell you that Nigeria the most advanced country in the world, you will believe it. But the reality is that it is true that Nigeria is a country, but claiming that it is the most advanced copuntry in the world, will be false. This is the problem we are facing with your Biblical statements. We in I.s lam believe in all the prophets and I said that there were 124, 000 of them. However to claim that all that were said in the bible, all of it were from prophets, that will be false. We see that paul had something said in the bible. Definitely, paul was not a prophet and he was not Jesus. Also, the disciples were not prophets and no one of them was Jesus! Are you with me lady? Good!
I believe in all the prophets. But what a prophet did not say, I can not accept it coming from the prophet. You are forcing my hand. Take it easy with me, woman. lol.
Okay, lady. Whatever suits you.
You, too. lol.
Baba Agba. Oku lailai. Oku jo meta. You saw me using Orishi rishi, here and there, in my posts. Bawo? I wish you well. @Syrup
When you continue to badger me with all or some about my believe in prophets. You forgot that I stated the what a prophet truly stated is diffrerent from what a prophet did not state, but ascribed to him anyway. The later is falsehold while the former is truth. But both of them are different from the prophet. But going by just speech, if that is how you measure my believing in prophethood, then all that the prophets actually said i believe. What they did not do or said I do not believe if they are even attached to them. What you must never forget is that Jesus or any of those prophets is not around to confirm or deny anything ascribed to them. [Quote] I gave a few - you had problems with them. How can I take you seriously? [/quote] lol. I guess revelation in the sense of the books: Torah, Psalm and the New Testament. Where did you show me a copy in Sematic language? The exact copy before versions, editions, revisions became the norm of what we have in christianity up till now? We are talking pass each other. It is very clear to me now. I guess you are interpreting what I said. You should take what i said literally. Please interpretation will make you miss the mark.
Hey, you are funny. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 11:58am On May 25, 2008 |
@Olabowale, olabowale: I knew you had such a seething bias before you started typing, and the long drawn-out thesis are disappointing futile already. olabowale: Denying what the prophets have stated in order to maintain your bias does not help your case. olabowale: Moses, Isaiah and some other prophets had no problem seeing God as FATHER. Your problem is that such a term must bring you to sex. Please get a clean mind and stay focused. While reading some of your literature, the musl.im friend I alluded to earlier introduced me to what is called the "40 hadiths" (if I remember). However, I was surprised that the nature of all.ah supposes that he could be "hurt" by mere mortals. A specific example is when Muh.hammad states that all.ah was "hurt" because one of the (un-named) sons of Adam denied him! Now, what sets this "all.ah" apart from mere mortals if he could be "hurt" just like anyone else? The prophets have declared that God was known as "FATHER" without any connotations of sex; but why is it that mus.lims MUST always dig in their lewd minds in this subject when there is no suggestion for such? The best simple answer is because you have no rational for denying what the prophets have taught, while at the same time pretending you believe in ALL! This is really a sad case for you, Olabowale - as the term "FATHER" does not suggest sex. The Bible does not teach that, and to make that inference is indeed a hypocritical position you assume. olabowale: Muh.hammad denied that statement and mus.lims suppose it was "God" who denied it! To hold this denial is to effectively deny the prophets who declared them long before the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Denying Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, Malachi, Daniel and others who made categorical statements akin to such is to effectively deny the prophets and falsify your claim to believe in ALL the prophets - and that is not my problem but yours. olabowale: Jesus was not "created" - that point has been made already in other threads. Isl.am may deny it, but that would mean to "prove" your assumptions by the same prism by which you examine the Bible and other prophets. No selective reading does the job for you - rather, it will selectively waste your presumptions! olabowale: Yeah, I heard that so many times - and I was refreshed to follow the thread where the discussion was held about the fact that the Qur''an confirms the Bible! You are desperate to unweave yourself from your dilemma, for if the Qur''an came to confirm the Bible (as was discussed), then where did you get the idea to disparage the same Biblical prophets?  You have said nothing worthwhile, Olabowale. I keep my fingers crossed for something more tangible than your desperate assertions. Be cool. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 12:12pm On May 25, 2008 |
Okay, let me tease you further (why do I have the feeling you're always shaking when typing? )olabowale: Where do you find Isaiah's teachings? David's Psalms? Ezekiel's prophecies? Daniel's prophecies? Malachi's, Micah's, Zachariah's prophecies? Where does the Qur''an point to in order to find their prophecies? The Bible! You're a funny man indeed! Please if you have another source for the teachings of these prophets, could you post them? No, I don't mean glib statements that are far removed from reality - just show me the documents, and then let me read for myself! No? You don't have the documents? Then how can you maintain the assertion: "I believe in ALL the prophets"? And then come back with objections at what they taught? Lol. . . Olabowale, you believe zero! Rest your dear heart. Until you produce those documents, you're only making a weak claim! olabowale: No, I am not with you. Paul was a prophet - and I believe it simply so (I am not a mus.lim who goes about denying everything simply because Muh.ammad said so). Afterall, some of you cannot agree about what Muha.mmad said or did not say in what is known as SAHIH hadiths. Muha.mmad was not Jesus, he never saw Jesus, and on that note I can say yes sir, I am with you - Muh.hammad cannot be authority on who Jesus was! If you disagree, no problems. I was only using your own slice and selective rule! olabowale: Okay, I am sorry - I did not mean to force your hand! I apologise if you felt pressured (which was why I'm not interested in long arguments). |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 12:31pm On May 25, 2008 |
olabowale: Let us be clear. HOW would you know that Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah and others did NOT state that God was known as FATHER? Did you ever read their scriptures and prophecies? Your answer would be "NO" - and if you never read them apart from the Qur''an, how would you KNOW what they taught and waht they did not teach? I am not here to badger anyone, just asking questions. olabowale: Do you believe in ALL what Isaiah SAID? Do you believe in ALL what Daniel, Ezekiel, malachi and Zachariah said? How would you know what to believe when you have NEVER once read their prophecies before making your weak assertion? Just em. . . "believe" ALL - the "blind-faith" thing? If you have never read anyone of those prophecies, you don't know what they said - and you have no way of ascertaining your belief! This leaves huge holes in your assertion of "all that the prophets actually said i believe". olabowale: And that is the more reason I cannot take what Muh.hammad asserted "they said" either! The Qur''an says to believe in ALL of them - no questions asked on that. But you seem adept at playing on words on that injunction while it! olabowale: Clever way to excuse yourself from the basic question. This is not another argument on Greek and Hebrew - you have always been sacred of such languages so please stop asking for a bigger bone than you can chew! The translations are available in several languages; but to satiate your request, let me leave you with just a snippet:  olabowale: Multiplied versions have also become the norm of the Qur''an today, NO? olabowale: Okay, going literally by waht you said, can I query that assertion by asking if you "literally" believe in what Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Malachi, Micah and others have TAUGHT? Yes or No? Word games in your next call? Tease me! |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 12:32pm On May 25, 2008 |
huxley: No dog-fights. We have been awaiting your reponse. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by huxley(m): 2:13pm On May 25, 2008 |
I shall respond when and if you address the main thrust of this post (which is the subject of bearing false witness/telling lies). I have nothing to add to any Xian-lam dogfighting. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 2:16pm On May 25, 2008 |
huxley: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-136670.0.html#msg2295101 |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by huxley(m): 2:42pm On May 25, 2008 |
syrup: That does not constitute a response. You have simply turned the question over to me rather than provide a response to the questions I asked. To rephrase; Are the commandments (like bearing false witness) an absolute injunction against an act or behaviour? Secondly, who is one's neighbour? I think our m-slim friend made a better and honest effort at responding to the question than you have, by admitting that according to his holy text, there is no absolute ban. But you have simply just reversed it on me. How dishonest? |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by olabowale(m): 2:54pm On May 25, 2008 |
@Syrup:
And for those whose hearts have been guided, the opposite is what they see. So I can not help you, lady. [Quote] Denying what the prophets have stated in order to maintain your bias does not help your case. [/quote] And to ascribe a statement falsely to a prophet will not help your case with God. The truth will be made plain, finally. Let me give you example; God prohibits the eating of the flesh of Pigs, right? Your prophet Paul allows it. Now thats a default. I call Paul your prophet because you referred to him as a prophet. To me he was not a prophet. I hold him in the same light as all the present day "Prophets!" [Quote] Moses, Isaiah and some other prophets had no problem seeing God as FATHER. Your problem is that such a term must bring you to sex. Please get a clean mind and stay focused. [/quote] Alleged statements from the prophets. Moses knew that his father was a child of Israel. And by the way, you claimed to be a mother, when does sex becomes something to dirty to the mind and makes the mind unfocused? You are a strange wife, then.
Did you see in any place where God was claimed to be the father of any man? Yet God has all the most beautiful names: a minimum of 99 along with A.ll.ah. By the way the names are way more than that, you see. Yet, God said that when He was hungry, He was not fed. And son of Adam said, oh my Lord when was that, when you are never in need of food? God said if you had fed hungry so and so of the children of Adam, then you would have fed Me. The same applied to clothing from unclothedness (For you the word unclothedness may be dirty, also), and the same applied to visiting the sick. Where should I begin with you? Lewd minds? Ironically, I called most of my older siblings and uncles and even cousins, father. Truly are they my father? Did I come from the loin of any of them, but the loin of Pa Pakulopa (ra)? And Gos said in Surah Mariam, " And the claim that God has a son. And their mere saying of it, the heavens were about to fall. The mountains were about to pulverate to dush and the earth was about open up; but God doesnot permit them, even as they lament as such horrible claims made by some children of Adam. This should tie you up pretty good, lady" But God further said in the same Surah Mariam that nothing in heavens or on earth and beyond comes to Him, except as a servant/ slave/ subject. Do you finally get it now, lady? I begin to think i know who you are. But God knows the truth. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by olabowale(m): 3:22pm On May 25, 2008 |
@Syrup:
Now you are playing the mind knower of God and also that of Prophet M.u.hamm.ad. And thats just terrible. You need to read Surah Al Maidah where God present a day of Judgement scenerio. God spoke about the dialogue between He and jesus before the presence of mankind. In a nutshell, Jesus said to God, I do not know Your mind (I do not know what You have for the future), but You know my mind (You do know what happens to me and my future). Please read that portion to know that what you are saying is completely off the mark. I am certain that prophet called God his father. And by the way as a child I had witnessed Christian's drama about the pregnancy of Mary. They always say that Mary was overshadowed by the spirit of God. When they demostrate it, always even now, they always act as if Mary was being mounted. Now if that is not a sexual act, then telle what it is! Remember, na you they push me o, sisi. [Quote] Jesus was not "created" - that point has been made already in other threads. Isl.am may deny it, but that would mean to "prove" your assumptions by the same prism by which you examine the Bible and other prophets. No selective reading does the job for you - rather, it will selectively waste your presumptions! [/quote] That makes two uncreated beings; God and Jesus, right? Are there other uncreated beings? Well if this is your understanding of Christian God, I will say that your god did not creat everything. Hence he is a different god from the M.usl.im God Who created everything. You see that we have different understandings of Who, What, etc God is? [Quote] Yeah, I heard that so many times - and I was refreshed to follow the thread where the discussion was held about the fact that the Qur''an confirms the Bible! You are desperate to unweave yourself from your dilemma, for if the Qur''an came to confirm the Bible (as was discussed), then where did you get the idea to disparage the same Biblical prophets? [/quote] Qu.r'a.n confirmed what is correct about the Bible. Example is God is truly One Lord. Not multiple headgod. What Qu.r'a.n denies are the falsehood. Example is God having children, dying, being a man, etc. Are we clear now. I dislike the act of keeping fingers crossed. It does not allow the hand to be fully functional. Stop doing it. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by olabowale(m): 4:09pm On May 25, 2008 |
@Syrup:
Your feeling is completely wrong. I may not like typing, but shaking is not one of my things. Baba la wa. Thats an old Gbosa, in the days. I am grateful that i lived and survived all the avalanches. [Quote] Where do you find Isaiah's teachings? David's Psalms? Ezekiel's prophecies? Daniel's prophecies? Malachi's, Micah's, Zachariah's prophecies? Where does the Qur''an point to in order to find their prophecies? The Bible! [/quote] If you read the writing in the Q.u'r'an about any of the prophets in it and compares it to what is in the Bible, you will never say that they are the same. The Q.ur'an does not look and does not point to the Bible for anything. Lets observe the miracle of the birth of John son of Zachariah for example. In the Q.ur'a.n we see that the three days as sign for the event, whereby Zachariah was unable to speak is different from that of the Bible. In the Qu.r'an, Zachariah was able to make talk and praise God and enjoin others to do so at the dawn and late afternoon prayers. But in the Bible that was not the case. Zachariah was just dumb all through. You will therefore see that in the Qu.r'an the sign was really a miracle upon miracle: He suddenly became unable to speak and then in a certain period he was able to speak so that he could conduct the worship wherein God is being praised.
Thank God I don't look funny. In teretingly, Micah and Malachi, Ruth, Easter are not in the Q.ur'a.n. And in the Bible, you do not have Luqman. How then you concluded without any second thought that the Bible is copied by the Q.ur'a.n? The Qur.'an declares that all the prophets were Mu.sl.ims. Will not be appropriate for statements that are essential to a complete way of life in I.sl.am be presented? Jacob forbade himself from eating a certain part of the cattle for example. But I.slam does not forbid any m.us.lim from eating any part of the cattle. An ethnic Jews (Child of Israel) who is a m.usli.m is permissable for him to discard the Jewish food restriction thereof. A christian who becomes a M.u.slim will have to abide by not eating flesh of Pig. Even though this was allowed to him, while he was a christian. How do you figure with just these few examples that Q.ur'an copied the Bible? Are we not the same human race? Should the Q.ur'an leave out the stories of man for the benefit of man, but instead tell the stories of Jinn, Angels and others but not man, to benefit man? This will be absurd, wouldn't it? Eyin eniyan, E ba mi da si oro yio. What documentsare needed? What are you talking about? Only that you need to know that what you said they taught in the Bible is not always they truly taught. Remember you even called paul a prophet? One wonders if the definition of the office of prophethood is truly understand here and no wonder we have all the CAC, Aladuras and the celestials, etc of Nigeria calling themselves Prophets! [Quote] No, I am not with you. Paul was a prophet - and I believe it simply so (I am not a mus.lim who goes about denying everything simply because Muh.ammad said so). Afterall, some of you cannot agree about what Muha.mmad said or did not say in what is known as SAHIH hadiths. Muha.mmad was not Jesus, he never saw Jesus, and on that note I can say yes sir, I am with you - Muh.hammad cannot be authority on who Jesus was! [/quote] God said that He alone is enough as a Witness for M.u'hamm.ad. That is enough for me. I see that you may object to it. Thats fine as long you are ready for the consequence. And since we know the nature of the prophet (as), we do have objections to what does not sound to be coming from him, on the pages of the ahadith. Come to think of it, we hold the same position when it comes to the claims on the pages of the Bible, too.
Right. Now you know.
Okay o. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by olabowale(m): 5:00pm On May 25, 2008 |
@Syrup:
I must have declared may times on this board that i went to a christian shool. Raised by a mother who was a Chritian. Roomed with a christian Reverend in school. Married a Christian woman. With all of these, do you think I would not at a time had a chance to actually studied the bible? Remember WASC? I took Bible Knowledge!
Again, I hear you. By the way, it was a figure of speech. [Quote] Do you believe in ALL what Isaiah SAID? Do you believe in ALL what Daniel, Ezekiel, malachi and Zachariah said? How would you know what to believe when you have NEVER once read their prophecies before making your weak assertion? Just em. . . "believe" ALL - the "blind-faith" thing? [/quote] Well. Let me try another way of bringing us going towards the same direction. We may still not agree, but it is a better sell than what is going on right now. If you make a statement that only was a page long to me as i write them down. Then at a later generation, somebody got hold of what you said as i wrote it down, but sprinkled a little of their own ideas within the body, so that they now come out with 3 pages. In good conscience can you say that this new document of 3 pages is now 100% your statement? You must consider that it has 100% of what you said and other things that the new author made out in your name. This is the condition of the Bible to all m.us.lims.
I took BK in High school. I guess that does not count. [Quote] And that is the more reason I cannot take what Muh.hammad asserted "they said" either! The Qur''an says to believe in ALL of them - no questions asked on that. But you seem adept at playing on words on that injunction while it! [/quote] You can now agree with me why the Jews refused to accept the prophethood and messiahship of Jesus? You follow their pattern of denial to a T. [Quote] Clever way to excuse yourself from the basic question. This is not another argument on Greek and Hebrew - you have always been sacred of such languages so please stop asking for a bigger bone than you can chew! The translations are available in several languages; but to satiate your request, let me leave you with just a snippet: [/quote] And do you read Hebrew or Aramaic? I don't care about Greek, since none of the prophets in the Bible was greek. Syrup, is it possible for a Yoruba woman to raise a son in yorubaland, but teach him Igbo as his first language? You must have read a novel in your native tongue before, right? If you are a Yoruba person, then Oke langodo will do here. If you read this novel, you will almost believed that there is such a place so named. And there are such characters in this place. But all of that is fiction. Such condition that we find fallacies in the Bible. Confusing, but yet it also says God is not the Author of confusion. [Quote] Multiplied versions have also become the norm of the Qur''an today, NO? [/quote] Your argument is in the same pattern as the young woman in England. Well, soon enough the truth will be revealed. But there is not M.uslim who recites Qur.'a.n in any other language except in Arabic. This is Q.u.r.'an. [Quote] Okay, going literally by waht you said, can I query that assertion by asking if you "literally" believe in what Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Malachi, Micah and others have TAUGHT? Yes or No? Word games in your next call? [/quote] I literally believe 100% of what they truly said 100%. Then I 100% refuse to accept anything that did not come from them, even though it is ascribed to them. Well if any prophet made a statement, his Lord knows it. He ordained it on him. All of that I take in 100%. I do not know about Malachi, Micah since they are not in the Q.ur'an. They may still be prophets since there were 124, 000 of them.
lol. The tease of the day is that I need a long break. Take care. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by 4Him1(m): 5:16pm On May 25, 2008 |
olabowale: all these proves is that you must not have paid a shred of attention to the bible while growing up. olabowale: Barnabas (whom you decietfully claim as your prophet) was born in Cyprus and understood the greek language. Dr. Luke (who wrote the gospel of Luke) was greek, Timothy (a faithful follower of Paul) was greek. Aramaic, like Greek, was not a jewish language. If you dont care about greek then neither shld you care for aramaic. olabowale: Would an igbo man have to learn arabic to read the qu'ran? |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by syrup(f): 5:17pm On May 25, 2008 |
@huxley, huxley: If you felt I gave no response at all, I am terribly ashamed for you at your cowardice! This is what I said earlier - post #1 --My answer would be 'no - it is not OK to bear false witness against someone who is not your neighbour'. Did you miss that before accusing me of dishonesty - just because you had hoped to cut it cheaply? That does not even merit the first letter of intelligence on your part! You don't start out with a bias to be accusative and then sit smug and dull with such pretences - and I do hope that you would pay some filial attention in addressing issues. Second, it is not my call if the mus.lim you refered to welcomes lying - you welcomed his response probably because you love lying yourself. I see why it is a "better and honest effort" as you applauded; sadly, how you celebrate that as a virtue to "bear false witness against your neighbour" is beyond me! As to who my neighbour would be, I also answered that quite clearly: To the question as to who is our neighbour, I take the Biblical view - especially as offered in the New Testament. It's alright if you felt those answers do not meet what you were seeking; but for all practical purposes, it was hypocritical to have accused me of dishonesty when you pretended to have not seen those answers! That could easily pass for for bearing false witness against my post! Take a chill, huxley. If there's something to be addressed, I'd be glad to join in the discussion. If you'd be too timid to cough, I apologise for not counting in your train of celebrating false witnessing. Many thanks. |
| Re: Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness! Or Shall One? by huxley(m): 5:37pm On May 25, 2008 |
My main post contain a number of simple questions, which if you had really wanted to respond to them rather than equivocate you could have dealt with them thus;
Yes, he should tell a lie because human lives are at risk in this case . . . . . . , As Christains, how many of you were/are 100 percent truthful with your visa applications to stay or to enter into the USA? As a matter of principle, and as there is really no lives at risk, I would be 100% truthful in my application . . . . . . ., . Shame to those who proclaim the Christian precept of honesty and yet violent this principle in their personal lives . . . . . . , I sometimes wonder what the response of the above questions would be if asked in one of the African Christian church congregations in London, Manchester, New York, Maryland, Frankfort, Paris etc. Would I get an honest answer? Or would the majority of the congregation desert the questioner? You would get a wide range of responses; some honest and some dishonest . . . . . . . , To some the matter of earning social and economic advantage at the expense of a little white lie is a small price to paid for the integrity. To others, the injunction not to lie is absolute . . . . . . . The crucial question is whether this commandment is meant as an absolute injunction against telling lies. Or are there situation were it be actually be morally right to tell a lie? This is a central subject in modern philosophy; the existence or otherwise of absolute moral values . . . . . , Personally, I lean on the side advocating no such thing . . . . . . . , BTW, who is your neighbour? Is it OK to bear false witness against someone who is not "your neighbour"? The biblical concept of your neighbour has undergone enormous redefinition from the Old Testament understanding to the present day. In the OT, a neighbour to a Jew would have been another Jew, not a Hittite or an Egyptian . . . . . . . . , Does the above not represent a fair attempt at responding, rather than the equivocation and evasions I got? |
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